Changing CR and EL ratings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing CR and EL ratings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ReverseCausality
01-05-07, 07:57 AM Maybe I'm just putting too much thought into everything but I seem to get varying answers.

Let's take humans, goblins and hobgoblins for an easy list of things to work with. Humans have CR of 1/2, Goblins have CR of 1/3 and Hobgoblins have CR of 1/2. Only humans and goblins have ECL of +0 and hobgoblins have an ECL of +1. What gives?

If you have four creatures with CR of 1/2, does the EL become 2 or 3?

Does each NPC level added to a creature add .5 to the CR or add a number equal to (NPC classes added - 1)?

Maybe this isn't as confusing as I'm making it out to be but I'm still getting confused anyway.
Merestil Haye
01-05-07, 08:41 AM Maybe I'm just putting too much thought into everything but I seem to get varying answers.

Let's take humans, goblins and hobgoblins for an easy list of things to work with. Humans have CR of 1/2, Goblins have CR of 1/3 and Hobgoblins have CR of 1/2. Only humans and goblins have ECL of +0 and hobgoblins have an ECL of +1. What gives?CR has nothing whatsoever to do with ECL. Nothing. The former is a measure of the threat the creature poses and the degree of danger in overcoming a single specimen of that monster. Nothing else.

ECL - Effective Character Level - measures how effective a character in the PC party is. It's the sum of the creature's Character Level or Hit Dice (the two terms are interchangeable) and a Level Adjustment based on the powers and abilities that come with being a creature of that type.

A Hobgoblin's Level Adjustment is based on the benefits of being a Hobgoblin compared to Human. They have increases to Dex, Con and Move Silently plus Darkvision.

If you have four creatures with CR of 1/2, does the EL become 2 or 3?Not sure. Calculating ELs is not a science, more an art - there's a lot of guesswork. I'd say 3 normally, but others may well disagree. That doesn't affect the xp gained anyway.

Does each NPC level added to a creature add .5 to the CR or add a number equal to (NPC classes added - 1)?That depends.

NPC classes and their effect on CR is a little open to debate. In the cases you have cited, there is no real problem. The creature's CR is equal to the characters HD, minus the number given as a reduction in the creature's stat block (or -1 if no adjustment is given).

Examples of creatures with adjustments other than -1 are Kobolds and Goblins - see the relevant MM entries for details. It might be reasonable to suggest that this reduction be capped to the number of levels the creature has in NPC classes but this is not the way the text reads. I'm just a bit uneasy about considering a Kobold Drd 9 / War 1 as a CR 7.

Once you start with creatures with 2 or more Racial HD you run into the concept of "associated classes." This is the idea that some classes play to a creature's strengths, and some dont - eg for an Ogre, Barbarian and Fighter play to it's strengths, but Sorcerer and Wizard don't (for example). The former pair are considered associated and each level in an associated class adds 1 to the CR. The latter are considered unassociated and a level in an unassociated class increases the CR by ½ until the creature has more levels in an unassociated class than racial HD, whereupon that class (and similar ones become associated.

To take the Ogre as an example, it starts with 4HD. Any level in any class with full BAB counts as associated. Levels in other PC classes add +½ to the CR until the ogre gains 4 levels in one, then it becomes associated. Thus an Ogre Bbn 4 is CR7, as is an Ogre Sor 5.

NPC classes are always considered unassociated. What this actually means is a matter for debate - whether NPC classes are treated exactly the same as an unassociated class, becoming associated after the creature gets high enough level in that class, or whether they always count as unassociated no matter how high a level they are in that class is the question. You'll have to decide that for yourself. (I'm in the former camp.)
ReverseCausality
01-05-07, 08:57 AM I never noticed that part before about the goblins. Good to see something explain all that to me. Thank you.

You said that XP isn't affected, but I thought that XP was dependent on EL, not overall CR. Am I mistaken?
ReverseCausality
01-05-07, 09:07 AM Also, what about elite arrays and nonelite arrays if I want to roll up the stats myself?
starfire311
01-05-07, 10:07 AM Also, what about elite arrays and nonelite arrays if I want to roll up the stats myself?

IMO rolled stats are better than the elite array, however, if the PCs rolled or used a greater than 25 PB, I feel it is acceptable to use the same stat generation as the PCs in place of the elite array
pedro2112
01-05-07, 10:35 AM I never noticed that part before about the goblins. Good to see something explain all that to me. Thank you.

You said that XP isn't affected, but I thought that XP was dependent on EL, not overall CR. Am I mistaken?

Yes, you are mistaken. XP is determined by the CR of the individual creatures.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ReverseCausality 01-05-07, 07:57 AM	Maybe I'm just putting too much thought into everything but I seem to get varying answers. Let's take humans, goblins and hobgoblins for an easy list of things to work with. Humans have CR of 1/2, Goblins have CR of 1/3 and Hobgoblins have CR of 1/2. Only humans and goblins have ECL of +0 and hobgoblins have an ECL of +1. What gives? If you have four creatures with CR of 1/2, does the EL become 2 or 3? Does each NPC level added to a creature add .5 to the CR or add a number equal to (NPC classes added - 1)? Maybe this isn't as confusing as I'm making it out to be but I'm still getting confused anyway.
Merestil Haye 01-05-07, 08:41 AM	Maybe I'm just putting too much thought into everything but I seem to get varying answers. Let's take humans, goblins and hobgoblins for an easy list of things to work with. Humans have CR of 1/2, Goblins have CR of 1/3 and Hobgoblins have CR of 1/2. Only humans and goblins have ECL of +0 and hobgoblins have an ECL of +1. What gives?CR has nothing whatsoever to do with ECL. Nothing. The former is a measure of the threat the creature poses and the degree of danger in overcoming a single specimen of that monster. Nothing else. ECL - Effective Character Level - measures how effective a character in the PC party is. It's the sum of the creature's Character Level or Hit Dice (the two terms are interchangeable) and a Level Adjustment based on the powers and abilities that come with being a creature of that type. A Hobgoblin's Level Adjustment is based on the benefits of being a Hobgoblin compared to Human. They have increases to Dex, Con and Move Silently plus Darkvision. If you have four creatures with CR of 1/2, does the EL become 2 or 3?Not sure. Calculating ELs is not a science, more an art - there's a lot of guesswork. I'd say 3 normally, but others may well disagree. That doesn't affect the xp gained anyway. Does each NPC level added to a creature add .5 to the CR or add a number equal to (NPC classes added - 1)?That depends. NPC classes and their effect on CR is a little open to debate. In the cases you have cited, there is no real problem. The creature's CR is equal to the characters HD, minus the number given as a reduction in the creature's stat block (or -1 if no adjustment is given). Examples of creatures with adjustments other than -1 are Kobolds and Goblins - see the relevant MM entries for details. It might be reasonable to suggest that this reduction be capped to the number of levels the creature has in NPC classes but this is not the way the text reads. I'm just a bit uneasy about considering a Kobold Drd 9 / War 1 as a CR 7. Once you start with creatures with 2 or more Racial HD you run into the concept of "associated classes." This is the idea that some classes play to a creature's strengths, and some dont - eg for an Ogre, Barbarian and Fighter play to it's strengths, but Sorcerer and Wizard don't (for example). The former pair are considered associated and each level in an associated class adds 1 to the CR. The latter are considered unassociated and a level in an unassociated class increases the CR by ½ until the creature has more levels in an unassociated class than racial HD, whereupon that class (and similar ones become associated. To take the Ogre as an example, it starts with 4HD. Any level in any class with full BAB counts as associated. Levels in other PC classes add +½ to the CR until the ogre gains 4 levels in one, then it becomes associated. Thus an Ogre Bbn 4 is CR7, as is an Ogre Sor 5. NPC classes are always considered unassociated. What this actually means is a matter for debate - whether NPC classes are treated exactly the same as an unassociated class, becoming associated after the creature gets high enough level in that class, or whether they always count as unassociated no matter how high a level they are in that class is the question. You'll have to decide that for yourself. (I'm in the former camp.)
ReverseCausality 01-05-07, 08:57 AM	I never noticed that part before about the goblins. Good to see something explain all that to me. Thank you. You said that XP isn't affected, but I thought that XP was dependent on EL, not overall CR. Am I mistaken?
ReverseCausality 01-05-07, 09:07 AM	Also, what about elite arrays and nonelite arrays if I want to roll up the stats myself?
starfire311 01-05-07, 10:07 AM	Also, what about elite arrays and nonelite arrays if I want to roll up the stats myself? IMO rolled stats are better than the elite array, however, if the PCs rolled or used a greater than 25 PB, I feel it is acceptable to use the same stat generation as the PCs in place of the elite array
pedro2112 01-05-07, 10:35 AM	I never noticed that part before about the goblins. Good to see something explain all that to me. Thank you. You said that XP isn't affected, but I thought that XP was dependent on EL, not overall CR. Am I mistaken? Yes, you are mistaken. XP is determined by the CR of the individual creatures.