Changing Feats with Wish / Resurrection [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing Feats with Wish / Resurrection [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Asche
12-08-04, 04:21 PM Hi there,

I am a DM in a campaign which is going almost always "by the book"
The only house rules we have is a removal of paladins Detect Evil and the Create Food/Water spells to make overland travel more challenging.

Recently with the release of Complete Arcane, one of our 5th level spellcasters changed his planned PrC, and is now encountering the problem of having missed the correct feat at level 5. Now he has been looking for ways to revert this choice and stay within the rules.

Is it legal to die, and upon gaining the 5th level anew, chose a different feat?
Also, are you forced to write down/remember at which level you took which feat? For example, if you have several independant feats, and lose one due to level loss, can you pick?

And last, would you consider the changing of a feat within the limitations of a Miracle/Wish ?
Didge
12-08-04, 04:40 PM The only house rules we have is a removal of paladins Detect Evil and the Create Food/Water spells to make overland travel more challenging.

Strange, but not the weirdest house rules I've seen. I won't ask how Detect Evil helps make overland travel more challenging...that's best saved for another thread and another time.

Is it legal to die, and upon gaining the 5th level anew, chose a different feat

I don't have the rules in front of me, but my gut instinct says no. Once you regain your level, you'd pick up the feat you had before. Simply put, you've already taken that Feat, you just don't qualify for it yet (until you make the new level).

Also, are you forced to write down/remember at which level you took which feat? For example, if you have several independant feats, and lose one due to level loss, can you pick?

You should keep track of which Feat you pick up at what level. For such incidents such as this. You're DM should also keep track of this by checking your character either every level, or every few levels.

If you haven't been keeping track, I'd say the highest in the Feat-Chain goes first, then indepenant one's would be random. But that's another gut call. Again, once you re-made that level that granted a Feat, that lost Feat is the one you'd get. You wouldn't get to choose a new one.

And last, would you consider the changing of a feat within the limitations of a Miracle/Wish ?

I don't see a problem with this. Assuming the proper logical things occur. You could wish/miracle to replace said Feat, but I'd say that the new Feat would have to fit into some requirements: A) The new Feat must be of sufficient level (see my second part above about keeping track of when you aquire your feats) to replace the old Feat. Thus if your character wanted to replace the Feat he took at 5th level, he would then use his 5th level stats, requirements to qualify for the new Feat. If he could not qualify for that Feat, he could not replace said Feat. B) If a Feat is replaced, any further Feat in that chain becomes useless until the lost Feat is re-aquired. Thus if you replaced Dodge with another Feat, you couldn't use Mobility or Spring Attack until you picked Dodge back up.
UltimateReality
12-08-04, 04:42 PM Is it legal to die, and upon gaining the 5th level anew, chose a different feat?

Hrm. Good question. I know this came up once in our campaign when a level 11 wizard died, was rezed, and gained 11th level back. The question, of course, was "does she learn two new spells?" We eventually decided yes.

In this case, I'd have to say erase the old feat off the sheet and write the new one down -- UNLESS the player is being a munchy about it in which case say no. :P

Also, are you forced to write down/remember at which level you took which feat? For example, if you have several independant feats, and lose one due to level loss, can you pick?

Um...should be fairly easy. You write 'em down as you get them, so the one at the bottom is the one you took most recently. Thus, it's the one that goes away.

And last, would you consider the changing of a feat within the limitations of a Miracle/Wish ?

If I was a very leniant DM, yes. But I think I'd rather have fun watching the player try to word that Wish in in-game terms instead. :devil: (No metagaming by using the feat name in the Wish/Miracle!)
Antigone
12-08-04, 04:48 PM In general, I just let players swap out the feat, especially if it's for a reason like the one you described, where the player wants a just-published PrC and couldn't have known to pick a particular feat. I usually only disallow it if they're pretty clearly abusing my good nature - like they took Craft Magic Arms & Armor, made the +5 full fortification adamantine plate, and now want to swap the Craft feat for, well, anything else. I do this because I like to play full-length, 1st through 20th level campaigns, and I want the players to enjoy their characters the whole way. A feat swap here and there isn't a big deal to me.

That said, if you really want an in-game reason for the feat swap, I'd say either of your proposed methods would work. I can't find anything that says you can't pick a different feat when you re-gain a lost level, but forcing the player to die and get raised in order to qualify for a PrC that wasn't published the first time he picked that level's feat seems a bit harsh to me. As for which feat you lose, it looks like you can pick.

From the SRD
LEVEL LOSS
A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.
The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.
Nom
12-08-04, 04:52 PM I'd certainly allow a wish to change a feat. You're spending 5000 XP on something which doesn't alter your character's theoretical power level.

It's not really a miracle-y sort of ability.

As to adding a new sourcebook after the fact, you have 3 options:

* Let the PC wait. Unless he's powergaming, he doesn't need to gain a PrC as soon as he possibly can. If your group values builds, however, this won't make the player happy.

* Reality shift. You've changed the world by adding a sourcebook. Let the PC make the minimum changes required to keep his build coherent.

* Change the PrC. The DMG states that PrCs are DM tools, and that published PrCs (especially in the DMG and generic sourcebooks) are 'examples' for DMs to work from. IMC, the core pre-req for taking levels in a PrC class is finding someone who will induct you into the class. Feats and skills come into play mainly if they are required for the PrC class features to make sense.
trapspringer
12-08-04, 08:25 PM I allow my players to switch out one feat with a newly (harback) published one. Once.

Coincidently, they rarely take me up on it. Always waiting for that really important feat....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asche 12-08-04, 04:21 PM	Hi there, I am a DM in a campaign which is going almost always "by the book" The only house rules we have is a removal of paladins Detect Evil and the Create Food/Water spells to make overland travel more challenging. Recently with the release of Complete Arcane, one of our 5th level spellcasters changed his planned PrC, and is now encountering the problem of having missed the correct feat at level 5. Now he has been looking for ways to revert this choice and stay within the rules. Is it legal to die, and upon gaining the 5th level anew, chose a different feat? Also, are you forced to write down/remember at which level you took which feat? For example, if you have several independant feats, and lose one due to level loss, can you pick? And last, would you consider the changing of a feat within the limitations of a Miracle/Wish ?
Didge 12-08-04, 04:40 PM	The only house rules we have is a removal of paladins Detect Evil and the Create Food/Water spells to make overland travel more challenging. Strange, but not the weirdest house rules I've seen. I won't ask how Detect Evil helps make overland travel more challenging...that's best saved for another thread and another time. Is it legal to die, and upon gaining the 5th level anew, chose a different feat I don't have the rules in front of me, but my gut instinct says no. Once you regain your level, you'd pick up the feat you had before. Simply put, you've already taken that Feat, you just don't qualify for it yet (until you make the new level). Also, are you forced to write down/remember at which level you took which feat? For example, if you have several independant feats, and lose one due to level loss, can you pick? You should keep track of which Feat you pick up at what level. For such incidents such as this. You're DM should also keep track of this by checking your character either every level, or every few levels. If you haven't been keeping track, I'd say the highest in the Feat-Chain goes first, then indepenant one's would be random. But that's another gut call. Again, once you re-made that level that granted a Feat, that lost Feat is the one you'd get. You wouldn't get to choose a new one. And last, would you consider the changing of a feat within the limitations of a Miracle/Wish ? I don't see a problem with this. Assuming the proper logical things occur. You could wish/miracle to replace said Feat, but I'd say that the new Feat would have to fit into some requirements: A) The new Feat must be of sufficient level (see my second part above about keeping track of when you aquire your feats) to replace the old Feat. Thus if your character wanted to replace the Feat he took at 5th level, he would then use his 5th level stats, requirements to qualify for the new Feat. If he could not qualify for that Feat, he could not replace said Feat. B) If a Feat is replaced, any further Feat in that chain becomes useless until the lost Feat is re-aquired. Thus if you replaced Dodge with another Feat, you couldn't use Mobility or Spring Attack until you picked Dodge back up.
UltimateReality 12-08-04, 04:42 PM	Is it legal to die, and upon gaining the 5th level anew, chose a different feat? Hrm. Good question. I know this came up once in our campaign when a level 11 wizard died, was rezed, and gained 11th level back. The question, of course, was "does she learn two new spells?" We eventually decided yes. In this case, I'd have to say erase the old feat off the sheet and write the new one down -- UNLESS the player is being a munchy about it in which case say no. :P Also, are you forced to write down/remember at which level you took which feat? For example, if you have several independant feats, and lose one due to level loss, can you pick? Um...should be fairly easy. You write 'em down as you get them, so the one at the bottom is the one you took most recently. Thus, it's the one that goes away. And last, would you consider the changing of a feat within the limitations of a Miracle/Wish ? If I was a very leniant DM, yes. But I think I'd rather have fun watching the player try to word that Wish in in-game terms instead. :devil: (No metagaming by using the feat name in the Wish/Miracle!)
Antigone 12-08-04, 04:48 PM	In general, I just let players swap out the feat, especially if it's for a reason like the one you described, where the player wants a just-published PrC and couldn't have known to pick a particular feat. I usually only disallow it if they're pretty clearly abusing my good nature - like they took Craft Magic Arms & Armor, made the +5 full fortification adamantine plate, and now want to swap the Craft feat for, well, anything else. I do this because I like to play full-length, 1st through 20th level campaigns, and I want the players to enjoy their characters the whole way. A feat swap here and there isn't a big deal to me. That said, if you really want an in-game reason for the feat swap, I'd say either of your proposed methods would work. I can't find anything that says you can't pick a different feat when you re-gain a lost level, but forcing the player to die and get raised in order to qualify for a PrC that wasn't published the first time he picked that level's feat seems a bit harsh to me. As for which feat you lose, it looks like you can pick. From the SRD LEVEL LOSS A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level. The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.
Nom 12-08-04, 04:52 PM	I'd certainly allow a wish to change a feat. You're spending 5000 XP on something which doesn't alter your character's theoretical power level. It's not really a miracle-y sort of ability. As to adding a new sourcebook after the fact, you have 3 options: * Let the PC wait. Unless he's powergaming, he doesn't need to gain a PrC as soon as he possibly can. If your group values builds, however, this won't make the player happy. * Reality shift. You've changed the world by adding a sourcebook. Let the PC make the minimum changes required to keep his build coherent. * Change the PrC. The DMG states that PrCs are DM tools, and that published PrCs (especially in the DMG and generic sourcebooks) are 'examples' for DMs to work from. IMC, the core pre-req for taking levels in a PrC class is finding someone who will induct you into the class. Feats and skills come into play mainly if they are required for the PrC class features to make sense.
trapspringer 12-08-04, 08:25 PM	I allow my players to switch out one feat with a newly (harback) published one. Once. Coincidently, they rarely take me up on it. Always waiting for that really important feat....