Changing Raise Dead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing Raise Dead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheosThree
12-04-04, 12:00 PM One of the problems I have with Raise Dead (Resurrection, etc.) is that the fear of death is replaced by a fear of losing a level (or no fear of death whatsoever). For an upcoming campaign I would like to try an alternative version of these spells that hopefully makes players value their lives rather than their levels without actually weakening the power of these spells.

Raise Dead (and any similar spells of 5th level or below) must be cast within CASTER LEVEL minutes of death and the body must be intact (so no severed limbs for example). This makes the spell function more as a magical CPR.
Resurrection (and any similar spells of 7th level or below) must be cast within CASTER LEVEL hours of death and the body should be mostly intact (so not disintegrated for example).
True Resurrection (and any similair spells of 9th level or below) have no restrictions on them, but require a quest to be completed on behalf of the granting deity.
No levels or CON are lost as a result of being dead. Your XP for the encounter in which you died are wasted.

Any constructive comments about these changes (with respect to the stated goals) would be appreciated.

TheosThree
Aeromus
12-04-04, 12:09 PM I think they were more balanced before you tweaked them.

There is a spell called "Last Breath" it's a 4th level druid spell and it has the type of effect you're looking for.

You have 1 round to breath life back into thecorpse with no level loss.

Losing a level is what makes those spells balanced. If you wish to further hinder thier use time, from days/weeks ect, to rounds minutes, seconds. Then fine. But by removing the cost of the xp loss, you have made death less powerful.
Cymraegmorgan
12-04-04, 12:30 PM Why would your characters fear death? Along with the Fantasy RPG suspension of disbelief where magic and monsters is concerned goes that same suspension of disbelief that death is permanent.
Why does the Wizard fear death, when he knows that his boon companions will haul his lifeless body back home for some maintenance? Raise Dead, etcetera are part of the dynamic of the fantasy realm, your PC knows this, has heard tales of it, might even as a child know people who were raised from the dead.

Fear of Death in D&D should be akin to fear of heights or spiders.

We are, after all, dealing with heroes and heroines here.
zodiki
12-04-04, 03:26 PM If there's a cleric in the party (who can cast these spells), your rules don't really change anything since he or she can just cast the spell themselves or use one off a scroll the party purchased as life insurance.

If you really want ot limit them, you'll need to set IG rules (like same deity only), bump them up in level, increase the material component, or get rid of them altogether.

I've always found it interesting why PCs would even want to come back from the dead, unless they are evil, the good planes seem like really nice places to be. If there's no afterlife, or it really sux compared to the prime, I could see PCs wanting to come back. I think PCs want to come back from the dead mostly because the players don't want to make another character.
ShadowDragon8685
12-04-04, 03:42 PM Unfinishes bisuness, loved ones and friends left behind, the burning desire to get vengeance on that SOB who killed you...

Those can be motivators.
Mr. NewFox
12-04-04, 05:45 PM I actually think this is a fine idea, for what you are trying to accomplish. I personally do not buy the idea that death is part of the fantasy dynamic, and that resurection should be looked upon the same way as magic or monsters. Limiting resurection makes your players play smart.

HOWEVER... be ready to play god every once in a while. It is a fact of games like DnD that TPKs just sometimes happen for no good reason. Even if all the players play well, and the encounter is properly balanced, you can still wind up with a dead party (if the players lose initiative and the party cleric gets crit'd, for example). So have some back-up plans. For example, if there is an "accidental" TPK, have the players "captured" while on the brink of death. Now they have to escape their captors and find their stuff. Or have an encounter with some high-level clerics planned out. In other words, always have a way out of those unfortunate, unforsee-able deaths that result from the luck of the dice.
Ramses III
12-04-04, 05:55 PM I've answered the death thing quite to my satisfaction IMC. I use a homebrew gameworld where the gods are very active (think of the Olympians in the Illiad -- the real one, not the Brad Pitt mockery) and mortals respect and worship them because the gods demand it. The god of death is very jelous of the souls that belong to him, but not totally unreasonable about ressurection: everyone gets 3 chances. If they get raised more than twice, it still works, but it is well known that the god of death will come (in person or by sending an avatar) to claim them as they have died 3 times and are now his. Thus, if a character is raised 3 times, they have a lot more to worry about than the level loss -- they have to hide from or fight a god to stay alive.
Shard of Suzail
12-04-04, 08:37 PM One note, and i may be wrong on this if you have some house rules going or i missed something in your posts...

Does this mean they need the X thousand worth of diamonds to be carried around with them or is there some sort of ambulance dragon service that delivers them in the necessary minutes of death, direct to the scene?

:eek:

Shall we just say that raise dead no longer works?

Likewise, in a dungeon/ some distance from town, either the cleric or the components are not going to be reached in time for the higher level spells, since they are measured in hours and not minutes.

As such, why have these spells at all?
Shard of Suzail
12-04-04, 08:46 PM Additionally, in all games that i have seen where this kind of change is put into place, it is the melee characters who suffer. Being closest to the action and the least able to disengage, they usually die and stay dead. Support characters and spellcasters tend to run for it when the fight looks dubious, again leaving the melee characters in a worse position. As such, everyone not in close combat tends to live a long life and become powerful, whereas the melee characters soon die out and are replaced with more spellcasters.

It will come to the point where the group puts enemies down fast by mass casting powerful smackdown spells and avoiding lengthy fights. In games like this, you are better off not having a cleric at all and high grade arcane magic is a better payoff.

You`ll get the equivalent of stealth bombing and that doesnt lead to heroics.
TheosThree
12-05-04, 06:18 AM I personally don't buy the whole 'there's no reason to fear death in a fantasy world'. Good fantasy literature typically has characters performing heroic deeds despite the risk of death. The heroic deeds are heroic precisely because they carry a chance for death. And this is why I would personally prefer to have weakened Raise Deads.

Another issue is that the first part of the campaign will be revolving around a plot to assassinate the new king (either helping or hindering). There is almost certainly a 9th level Cleric in the capital who would be willing to Raise Dead the king (for a princely sum). Kind of makes the whole assassination thing pointless. There are ways around this (such as removing the body) which PCs or NPCs might have to resort to.

I don't want to scrap these spells altogether - I would prefer fear of death to be more of a factor than actual player deaths happening.

The method I like best is Ramses III's. The theology of the game world is still being developed and I can certainly tailor it to suit my needs.

I'm leaning towards a monotheistic world with a single powerful church. This then is my idea (which doesn't involve any other spell changes): At lower levels being raised would require a great service to the church (not money, and only if you're already in good standing with them). At levels when a party cleric can cast the spells himself, a service for the god is still required - and that service must be completed before the time limit of the spell expires. Services would be simple subquests - acquire this magic item, kill that heretic, etc. - which would themselves incorporate some element of risk but should be completable within the ~10 hour time limit (for Raise Dead).
Cymraegmorgan
12-05-04, 01:13 PM Yes, TheosThree, good literature, fantasy or otherwise, has heroes braving death. But in the D&D setting, where death is not necessarily permanent, fear of death is a ridiculous attitude for a hero.
There were no clerics with Raise Dead spells in A Princess of Mars or The jewel in the Skull.
But this is a mechanic in the game that the PCs know about in and out of character. Death is not the shadowy end to be feared, but rather something that can put a definite crimp in your well laid plans.

Whether you choose to houserule resurrection into something more complicated or not, your players still come to the table with a lessened fear of death for their characters because coming back from death is part of the game as they have learned it.
Kyy'Dakh
12-06-04, 01:50 PM I've considered tinkering with resurrection spells IMCS. One thing I was considering was the necessity of the body: All of them would need a more or less intact body, or at least enough pieces to put together. Does tend to make disintegrate more powerful and feared, though.
Aeromus
12-06-04, 01:55 PM Make the spells more rare. Requiring a service so powerful and awe inspiring that one would be an idiot to risk his life again to get a raise dead for another.
Vharuck
12-06-04, 02:59 PM Maybe society looks down on raise dead like spells. I mean, what difference does it make to the common man whether the king is alive with positive energy or negative energy? It's all necromancy and wicked to them. And what king would want to return knowing full well that he would have to live through another painfull knife in his back.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheosThree 12-04-04, 12:00 PM	One of the problems I have with Raise Dead (Resurrection, etc.) is that the fear of death is replaced by a fear of losing a level (or no fear of death whatsoever). For an upcoming campaign I would like to try an alternative version of these spells that hopefully makes players value their lives rather than their levels without actually weakening the power of these spells. Raise Dead (and any similar spells of 5th level or below) must be cast within CASTER LEVEL minutes of death and the body must be intact (so no severed limbs for example). This makes the spell function more as a magical CPR. Resurrection (and any similar spells of 7th level or below) must be cast within CASTER LEVEL hours of death and the body should be mostly intact (so not disintegrated for example). True Resurrection (and any similair spells of 9th level or below) have no restrictions on them, but require a quest to be completed on behalf of the granting deity. No levels or CON are lost as a result of being dead. Your XP for the encounter in which you died are wasted. Any constructive comments about these changes (with respect to the stated goals) would be appreciated. TheosThree
Aeromus 12-04-04, 12:09 PM	I think they were more balanced before you tweaked them. There is a spell called "Last Breath" it's a 4th level druid spell and it has the type of effect you're looking for. You have 1 round to breath life back into thecorpse with no level loss. Losing a level is what makes those spells balanced. If you wish to further hinder thier use time, from days/weeks ect, to rounds minutes, seconds. Then fine. But by removing the cost of the xp loss, you have made death less powerful.
Cymraegmorgan 12-04-04, 12:30 PM	Why would your characters fear death? Along with the Fantasy RPG suspension of disbelief where magic and monsters is concerned goes that same suspension of disbelief that death is permanent. Why does the Wizard fear death, when he knows that his boon companions will haul his lifeless body back home for some maintenance? Raise Dead, etcetera are part of the dynamic of the fantasy realm, your PC knows this, has heard tales of it, might even as a child know people who were raised from the dead. Fear of Death in D&D should be akin to fear of heights or spiders. We are, after all, dealing with heroes and heroines here.
zodiki 12-04-04, 03:26 PM	If there's a cleric in the party (who can cast these spells), your rules don't really change anything since he or she can just cast the spell themselves or use one off a scroll the party purchased as life insurance. If you really want ot limit them, you'll need to set IG rules (like same deity only), bump them up in level, increase the material component, or get rid of them altogether. I've always found it interesting why PCs would even want to come back from the dead, unless they are evil, the good planes seem like really nice places to be. If there's no afterlife, or it really sux compared to the prime, I could see PCs wanting to come back. I think PCs want to come back from the dead mostly because the players don't want to make another character.
ShadowDragon8685 12-04-04, 03:42 PM	Unfinishes bisuness, loved ones and friends left behind, the burning desire to get vengeance on that SOB who killed you... Those can be motivators.
Mr. NewFox 12-04-04, 05:45 PM	I actually think this is a fine idea, for what you are trying to accomplish. I personally do not buy the idea that death is part of the fantasy dynamic, and that resurection should be looked upon the same way as magic or monsters. Limiting resurection makes your players play smart. HOWEVER... be ready to play god every once in a while. It is a fact of games like DnD that TPKs just sometimes happen for no good reason. Even if all the players play well, and the encounter is properly balanced, you can still wind up with a dead party (if the players lose initiative and the party cleric gets crit'd, for example). So have some back-up plans. For example, if there is an "accidental" TPK, have the players "captured" while on the brink of death. Now they have to escape their captors and find their stuff. Or have an encounter with some high-level clerics planned out. In other words, always have a way out of those unfortunate, unforsee-able deaths that result from the luck of the dice.
Ramses III 12-04-04, 05:55 PM	I've answered the death thing quite to my satisfaction IMC. I use a homebrew gameworld where the gods are very active (think of the Olympians in the Illiad -- the real one, not the Brad Pitt mockery) and mortals respect and worship them because the gods demand it. The god of death is very jelous of the souls that belong to him, but not totally unreasonable about ressurection: everyone gets 3 chances. If they get raised more than twice, it still works, but it is well known that the god of death will come (in person or by sending an avatar) to claim them as they have died 3 times and are now his. Thus, if a character is raised 3 times, they have a lot more to worry about than the level loss -- they have to hide from or fight a god to stay alive.
Shard of Suzail 12-04-04, 08:37 PM	One note, and i may be wrong on this if you have some house rules going or i missed something in your posts... Does this mean they need the X thousand worth of diamonds to be carried around with them or is there some sort of ambulance dragon service that delivers them in the necessary minutes of death, direct to the scene? :eek: Shall we just say that raise dead no longer works? Likewise, in a dungeon/ some distance from town, either the cleric or the components are not going to be reached in time for the higher level spells, since they are measured in hours and not minutes. As such, why have these spells at all?
Shard of Suzail 12-04-04, 08:46 PM	Additionally, in all games that i have seen where this kind of change is put into place, it is the melee characters who suffer. Being closest to the action and the least able to disengage, they usually die and stay dead. Support characters and spellcasters tend to run for it when the fight looks dubious, again leaving the melee characters in a worse position. As such, everyone not in close combat tends to live a long life and become powerful, whereas the melee characters soon die out and are replaced with more spellcasters. It will come to the point where the group puts enemies down fast by mass casting powerful smackdown spells and avoiding lengthy fights. In games like this, you are better off not having a cleric at all and high grade arcane magic is a better payoff. You`ll get the equivalent of stealth bombing and that doesnt lead to heroics.
TheosThree 12-05-04, 06:18 AM	I personally don't buy the whole 'there's no reason to fear death in a fantasy world'. Good fantasy literature typically has characters performing heroic deeds despite the risk of death. The heroic deeds are heroic precisely because they carry a chance for death. And this is why I would personally prefer to have weakened Raise Deads. Another issue is that the first part of the campaign will be revolving around a plot to assassinate the new king (either helping or hindering). There is almost certainly a 9th level Cleric in the capital who would be willing to Raise Dead the king (for a princely sum). Kind of makes the whole assassination thing pointless. There are ways around this (such as removing the body) which PCs or NPCs might have to resort to. I don't want to scrap these spells altogether - I would prefer fear of death to be more of a factor than actual player deaths happening. The method I like best is Ramses III's. The theology of the game world is still being developed and I can certainly tailor it to suit my needs. I'm leaning towards a monotheistic world with a single powerful church. This then is my idea (which doesn't involve any other spell changes): At lower levels being raised would require a great service to the church (not money, and only if you're already in good standing with them). At levels when a party cleric can cast the spells himself, a service for the god is still required - and that service must be completed before the time limit of the spell expires. Services would be simple subquests - acquire this magic item, kill that heretic, etc. - which would themselves incorporate some element of risk but should be completable within the ~10 hour time limit (for Raise Dead).
Cymraegmorgan 12-05-04, 01:13 PM	Yes, TheosThree, good literature, fantasy or otherwise, has heroes braving death. But in the D&D setting, where death is not necessarily permanent, fear of death is a ridiculous attitude for a hero. There were no clerics with Raise Dead spells in A Princess of Mars or The jewel in the Skull. But this is a mechanic in the game that the PCs know about in and out of character. Death is not the shadowy end to be feared, but rather something that can put a definite crimp in your well laid plans. Whether you choose to houserule resurrection into something more complicated or not, your players still come to the table with a lessened fear of death for their characters because coming back from death is part of the game as they have learned it.
Kyy'Dakh 12-06-04, 01:50 PM	I've considered tinkering with resurrection spells IMCS. One thing I was considering was the necessity of the body: All of them would need a more or less intact body, or at least enough pieces to put together. Does tend to make disintegrate more powerful and feared, though.
Aeromus 12-06-04, 01:55 PM	Make the spells more rare. Requiring a service so powerful and awe inspiring that one would be an idiot to risk his life again to get a raise dead for another.
Vharuck 12-06-04, 02:59 PM	Maybe society looks down on raise dead like spells. I mean, what difference does it make to the common man whether the king is alive with positive energy or negative energy? It's all necromancy and wicked to them. And what king would want to return knowing full well that he would have to live through another painfull knife in his back.