Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pres_man 04-05-04, 03:53 PM	Here are the PC's in my current campaign: (L G) Half-Orc Monk (L G) Human Shaman (from O.A.) (L G) Yuan-ti Paladin and (C G/N) Elf Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch knight The problem is that the elf is not a team player. The monk values almost all forms of life, and almost never does lethal damage. The shaman values the natural world, not to the degree of a druid, but very highly. There have been a couple of situations where they we being threatened by (dire) animals and the monk and the shaman said something like, "Don't attack them, let's just back away." This is usually followed by a fireball from the elf. The elf is later acting like, "Well they were threatening us." The shaman is upset because he can actually turn or rebuke animals as a cleric does undead, so there usually isn't any need to kill the animals. Anyway, at the end of last session, in which the whole fireball the animals thing happened again, the party basically told this character to shape up or after their through this area and back to safer lands, they are going to stop adventuring with him. I as the DM sat back and let them deal with it, but I wonder if I'm going to have to step in and somehow deal with the player out of game. From what I've heard, he's pretty much like this is in all his games, and the character if played correctly wouldn't be a problem. So should I sit back and let them deal with it, or should I try to get involved out of game before somebody marches out of the house.
Lucky Lai 04-05-04, 03:58 PM	I believe that you, as a DM, should step in -some-, but not to the extent of forcing the player of the elf into anything. You could say "Retire your character or don't come back," but that's not what I like to do. Let the PCs sort it out, acting only as a judge when they can't come to a conclusion. See what your players will do, and what conclusions they can come to as characters. Reward them with bonus XP if they do a good job. From a DM's standpoint, though, you might want to penalize the elf somehow. For instance, he's not CHAOTIC EVIL, so a group of wolves menacing the party is just a pack of animals defending their homes. Dropping a fireball in the middle of them is an evil act, in my opinion, unless they attack you first. Deduct some XP, but don't be too harsh. Maybe pull him aside and explain to him that "Chaotic" doesn't mean "I do what I want, I don't care" because you still have that "-Good, -Neutral" descriptor. If he's CG/CN, then he's not going to be totally reckless and do whatever whenever just because. But even still, I think that's too much. Much better would be the group of druids that don't like their forests being set ablaze and their animals being killed for defending their homes. ;)
Fixxxer 04-05-04, 04:05 PM	In a perfect world, the only thing you will have to say to the player out of game is that roleplaying a certain type of PC is secondary to playing a PC that fits in the party and that since it's basically his one PC type versus the other three PCs who all fit, he's the one who will have to adapt. You'd also have to let him know that if he can't create a PC that actually fits with the group, it's your responsability to make the game fun and playable for the others by asking him to leave. However, we don't live in a perfect world, so you'll probably end up arguing with him until he grudgingly agrees to shape up and then repeating the process when he doesn't do so, finally removing him from the game with him belittling and cursing you and the game the whole time as though he never wanted to be there anyhow and the entire thing is somehow beneith him. :(
Utumno 04-05-04, 06:13 PM	In my opinion no out of game reprimand is required. Your players are doing the right thing by trying to rein him in. If he continues to behave the way he is then he will lose his character. When this happens make him roll up a new character 2 levels lower than the average party level. Sooner or later he will get the idea that if he does not shape up he will be forever weaker than the rest of the party.
Conaill 04-05-04, 07:03 PM	Would you consider this a purely in-game problem, or an out-of-game problem? If it is an in-game problem, deal with it in-game. If it's an out-of-game problem, deal with it out-of-game! I know there exist players that would positively *thrive* on such in-game character differences. The PC's may bicker all they want, it might even come to blows, but the players are all having a great time. However, it sounds to me you really do have an out-of-game problem. I.e. your *players* are getting annoyed at the way this other *player* runs his PC. Conflicts between PCs can be resolved in-game. But a conflict between players you'd be much better off approaching head-on, by talking to the players directly.
jafyfe 04-05-04, 07:04 PM	DIRE animals are evil animals. They are animals that have been wickedly transformed. I had a druid that went through the same experience of like 'oh look its life, we shouldn't hurt it' until it was pointed out that these are evil, possed animals. Yes fighting wolves is not something the druid does, however, a druid is all about NATURAL not NATURE, and dire animals are not NATURAL. So of course they need to attack because they are evil and evil must be destoryed for their to be PEACE. That is what the hebrew word for PEACE means "destruction of chaos." Inorder for the monk to be at peace, he needs to remove chaos. :rant:
pokemaniacbill 04-05-04, 07:20 PM	I assume, heir Jafyfe, that you believe that the PCs know where dire animals came from, or had ranks in Wilderness Lore. I doubt that many PCs really do know where dire animals come from. Of course, there is no $*&(ing idiot who has had so much of his brain removed he'd play an assasin in a group of Exalted Paladins. While quite not so dire now, I get that feeling here. Explain to him that there's always Diablo, but since he appears to be Chaotic Neutral and not Chaotic Good (Not respecting a non-offensive way of thought regarding respect for life, working badly with group dynamics, trigger happiness when unprovoked). Tell him he should act to his alignment: What reason is there for him to be in the group? What reason does the group have for tolerating him?
Ironfisted Tyrant 04-05-04, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by jafyfe DIRE animals are evil animals. They are animals that have been wickedly transformed. I had a druid that went through the same experience of like 'oh look its life, we shouldn't hurt it' until it was pointed out that these are evil, possed animals. *checks the Monster Manual* Hmm, according to this thing, they're "Always Neutral". And I've no idea where that bit about them being possessed is coming from.
Toptomcat 04-05-04, 07:22 PM	How would YOU deal with a crazy, disruptive guy like that? Just keep in mind that this guy's actions have natural consequences- and the next time he chooses to transform a squirrel or two into critter flambe, just have one of the PCs (not players) sit on him until he behaves.
jafyfe 04-05-04, 07:33 PM	How are dire animals created? Naturally?
trapspringer 04-05-04, 07:52 PM	Dire animals aside, this is a non-issue. The pc is a typical chaotic mage. I have always enjoyed being in a party with one r4eally powerful, off the wall spellcaster. The players are acting out the roles thier character dictates. Point this out to the druid and the monk. If it truly bothers them OOG, then the chaotic guy will have to choose between switching character (at NO penalty) or dropping out.
pres_man 04-05-04, 08:21 PM	The players kind of like his character, it's funny to see a fireball hit a dire boar and the bushes around it and then to see two "little" boars come squealing out of it and running away. The problem is that the other players are pretty serious "role" players. Where they as players find his character humorous and interesting, their characters are quickly losing tolerance for his behaviour. As for this being an in game vs out of game issue, I think its both. Maybe if I tell him that if he has to start a new character because the party kicks him out, that his new character will be a level or two lower, maybe he might pull it in. Playing a goofy character is fun, but if the other characters can't trust him, then he needs to change.
Sildatorak 04-05-04, 08:50 PM	I wouldn't penalize the guy if playing his character isn't a team friendly activity, but I wouldn't let him play another jerk after this one. Let him either reform or switch in a new character of the same level that is more compatible with the team. If the player insists on playing another team unfriendly character, then you have an out of game problem. On an off-topic note: Dire animals are larger, tougher, meaner versions of ordinary animals. Each kind tends to have a feral, prehistoric, or even demonic appearance. Seems to me that dire animals would be stronger strains of normal animals. They aren't necessarily created, they can just be throw-back species or something like that. That isn't to say they couldn't be created by evil means, just that they don't have to be.
Stafir Ortnev 04-05-04, 09:09 PM	Originally posted by pres_man The players kind of like his character, it's funny to see a fireball hit a dire boar and the bushes around it and then to see two "little" boars come squealing out of it and running away. Then it is not an out of character problem. They like his char..they don't mind that he clashes with their chars. They laugh, they have fun..they somewhat groan when he does something thats silly and stupid. But probably remember it fondly and with a laugh afterwords, right? The entire problem is in char though. Their char's don't like his chars. But this dosn't mean that the players hate the char. I've been in games (online), where we had an ooc window, and a IC window. Alot of the time I see players encouraging another player to do something that their own chars wouldn't like. Just becuase its funny..fun, or whatever. In all honesty, let this be taken care of in char. The most you should do, is make sure that the player gets a warning that his char might be booted out of the group by the other chars. so he can try to shape up if need be. But otherwise, don't bother it. The problems are in char. Let it be taken care of in char...its a good roleplaying oportunity.
king_of_evil007 04-05-04, 09:25 PM	Talk with each of the players privately (an e-mail or phone call will suffice, nothing big). Ask them what they think of the guy's behavior, and whether if it's fun. If they're enjoying the char vs char conflict, then great! If they're enjoying these antics, then encourage it! If they aren't, explain to the character that destruction of the environment is generally a bad idea. Let him know that the other players aren't enjoying it. Tell him he can either stop his reckless destruction or at least tone it down to a magic missile ;) ), change characters (at NO penalty), or come to a compromise. But if the other characters are really getting mad, let them know it's just a game. It sounds like they might be taking this too seriously. One thing you want to avoid is player vs player combat, unless it's just for fun (say, a nonlethal duel). If one character attacks another (DIE NATURE KILLER!!! AIEEE!!!!!!) stop the game immediately, and talk with them. If you have to, just have a level 100 Druid with some Epic spell called Nature's Wrath that deals 1000d100 cubed damage for each element (fire, electricity, sonic, acid, and cold), which comes out to a lot of damage. No save, and just for fun, let the spell do maximum damage. Then have the guy be revived as a. . . dire boar.
meabolex 04-05-04, 10:39 PM	Well, at least you're not dealing with a chaotic neutral *CLERIC* of Olidammara (-; As part of the cleric class, he must exemplify chaos in it's truest form. Ugh. Honestly, I think a character like that can be incorporated into a party with all Lawful characters. It simply requires maturity and a willingness to work with the DM and the other players. Just because your character is Chaotic Neutral doesn't mean that you have to be. A major quote that many people miss in the PH about Chaotic Neutral is: A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated by good or evil. The missed connection is that the group of PCs is an organization of sorts. The chaotic neutral character shouldn't disrupt the party. Otherwise, he's playing LG in a evil-leaning party or CE in a good-leaning party. Of course, the player in question could just be a bad roleplayer. There's not a lot you can do there other than seriously talk about it with the offending player. Some people lose control when they roleplay, letting out the frustrations that they repress in their daily lives. Maybe this player needs to realize that the game isn't all about him. He should be also thinking about the other players. It's a social game, plain and simple.
Fixxxer 04-06-04, 01:45 AM	Originally posted by jafyfe How are dire animals created? Naturally? Regardless of how they might have originally been created, yes, they are created naturally in the sense that they breed and reproduce like their "normal" counterparts. Despite any misconceptions one might have about dire animals, they are just that...animals. They're a neutral part of the natural ecosystem...so nature-minded PCs have a perfectly logical reason for not wanting to hurt them.
zodiki 04-06-04, 10:27 AM	I wouldn't step into the fray. It may be that the player is a mature roleplayer and invites the interaction generated by this sort of conflict. I doubt it, but I'd at least give him the chance to prove it. It may come down to the rest of the party exiling his PC (or worst) when he goes too far. If this player has a history of being contrary for contrary's sake, I'd consider not inviting him back if he doesn't respond well to a good talking to about the meta-concept of team and D&D.
Large Gnoll 04-06-04, 03:40 PM	Sometimes players debating about playing can be very entertaining for a DM, but it can go TOO far. If it prevents fun and playing, the DM should step in. Maybe the player will see the light one day and understand that what he's doing is annoying everybody.
eru 04-06-04, 05:18 PM	The next animal you think he's going to flame ... make it a dragon who's changed form, or if you're playing FR, better yet Elminster :schemes: