Post/Author/DateTime	Post
green_girl 07-21-07, 10:43 AM	As DMs, how do you handle chaotic stupid characters? You know the drill, they just do anything they want without thinking of the consequences. They will steal from anybody, fight anybody, kill anybody. Please share your own experiences. There are two chaotic stupid characters in the campaign I'm running. Here's how I handled them during our last session: Scenario #1 Half-orc Barbarian: I'll carry the table. Me: Okay. HB: I'll carry my two party mates (a human cleric and a halfling rogue) and walk up to the port while jumping up and down. Me: While carrying the table? HB: Yeah. Me: Okay, make a strength check. HB: Woohoo! A 20! Me: Okay, you got into the port. You're heavily fatigued because it is 6 kilometers away from where you came from. You would've done fine if you didn't carry your party members AND the table, not to mention jumping up and down. HB: Uh... Me: Since you're extra fatigued, that would be -5 on your Strength. hell, you need to rest. Scenario #2: Halfling Rogue: I'll sell this antique scimitar (said scimitar is really just a rusted scimitar taken from a wandering gnoll) to you, for only 500 gold! (makes bluff check, fails) Merchant on the docks: *in a loud voice*HEY! i'm also selling antique scimitars? Do you want some? I also sell-- HR: He's annoying *fires crossbow, kills merchant* *8 guards appear and asks them to surrender* HR: Can I bluff them, and say that I didn't really did it? Me: No, they SAW you. *Rogue ended up dead* Anyone can be chaotic if they want. But think about the consequences before you do something. In the real world, you simply can't do anything you want. Act like a psychopathic killer who kills everyone who annoys you, and you'll be treated like a psychopathic killer and everyone will wither a) run away from you or b) try to kill you before you kill them.
green_girl 07-21-07, 10:51 AM	Stupid intarwebs connection. Ended up with a double post. My bad.
Toran_A_Sunder 07-21-07, 10:57 AM	I think people have a habit of misinterpreting what it means to be lawful or chaotic. They think lawful characters are stick in the muds who follow every law handed down to them. They think chaotic means you can have all the fun of being evil without actually being evil. Its one of my biggest pet peeves in game. I sympathize with you, OP. I really do.
Ecalsneerg 07-21-07, 11:19 AM	I think the Law-Chaos axis needs some seriuos explaining. People, correctly IMO, assume Law is obeying the law (but I add strict samurai/paladin-like honour codes into this), but Chaos, despite being the opposite, is not actually nonlawful, but instead... just random.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-21-07, 11:25 AM	In the second scenario I would have agreed, however in the first I think he was just trying to have fun. If your sessions are serious political intrigue, which I doubt as it's a barbarian, maybe you shouldnt have kicked down his sandcastle, even if you had the right. Hell my games can go from being deadly serious to having downright stupid behaviour.... Just my two cents here.
green_girl 07-21-07, 11:30 AM	I think people have a habit of misinterpreting what it means to be lawful or chaotic. They think lawful characters are stick in the muds who follow every law handed down to them. They think chaotic means you can have all the fun of being evil without actually being evil. Its one of my biggest pet peeves in game. I sympathize with you, OP. I really do. Too true, that. Or maybe my players never really understood what law vs. chaos really is, and they're just acting like that because they want to do what they want to do. Problem is, the first thing they want to do is pretty much suicidal.
Kamin_Majere 07-21-07, 11:46 AM	Theres not a whole lot you can do agasint a chaotic stupid character (or player) You just have to keep deling with the outcomes of their actions and hope if enough bad things happen or enough deaths occur that they eventually learn. Its best to simply talk to them and ask what the **** if wrong with them, and that Chaotic (usually neutral) does not mean psychopath or sociopath. Other than that... give them a bridge to cross every now and then (referanceing sig)
BW0222 07-21-07, 12:46 PM	green_girl, As DMs, how do you handle chaotic stupid characters? There are lots of ways... 1. Ban it. If your players honestly can't handle it, then don't allow it. Problem solved. 2. Discourage it. For example, give all good characters a 33 point buy. Give other players roleplaying XP who aren't stupid. 3. Ban player vs. player. If a character attacks, steals from, threatens, etc. another then immediately take control of the PC as an NPC until the end of the session. 4. Invoke vote out of party rules. At anytime the majority of PCs vote another PC out of the party, that player must make a new character (say one level lower than the party) for the next session. If characters want to be insane and cause problems for the party, allow the party to do what it would in the real world... kick the PC out and don't associate with him. 5. Invoke real world concequences. Don't have the guards kill him immediately, but make sure you spend a session or two roleplaying it -- as boring and completely unstoppable as possible. Ask the other players what they are doing -- i.e. continue the adventure with the main group while switching back to the PC in a cell, guards and witnesses givening testimony, listening to the merchant's childen crying their eyes out, guards beating him senseless, him being led up to the gallows, folks tossing eggs and rocks at him, and finally him strangling on the end of a rope. You might also be even more brutal and say have the guards save the merchant (stablize him at -5 or something) and then sentance the PC to five years hard labor in a copper mine. Keep switching between the PC mining ore, being beaten, starving, etc. and the group out adventuring.
Hack and Smasher 07-21-07, 12:50 PM	seems like you doing fine just keep it up the problem will sort its self out.
ScorpiusRisk 07-21-07, 01:14 PM	I have to disagree with BWO's suggestions. If you're party is willing to keep doing stuff that is not beneficial to them, i.e. makes them weaker or gets them killed, because it's fun, then thats fine. That's how they want to play. If they were doing it by accident, they would start acting different. You have to work with players to play a game thats not just enjoyable to you, but to them. If you feel that you can't have fun while they act like this, then yoiu have to explain to them that this is not the kind fo game that you want to play. IF they want to keep playing this way, then you're not having fun and you need to try and find another group. Everyone needs to enjpy themselves, or its not a game anymore.
green_girl 07-21-07, 01:33 PM	@Paladin Hiroshi I don't really have a problem if he wants to act stupidly. Same character wants to jump from a castle window which is 80 feet above ground. I said "Okay, you jumped. That would be *checks DMG for damage equivalent*..." then he went "On second thought, I don't think I want to jump." Doing anything without consequences will make players DO anything because they're practically invincible. But when he's not acting stupidly, he's really a fine character. His tactics, though bizarre, are effective AND funny. He keeps on tossing the party's halfling to their enemies, and said halfling will slash at enemies mid-air. And he prefers grappling his opponents rather than swinging his sword. That's really kinda interesting. @BW0222 He shot first. I was planning on having him captured if he doesn't resist, but apparently his Level 1 rogue is not afraid of 8 fully-armed guards. I figure that, in real life, if you tried shoot policemen when they're asking you to surrender, they really won't mind making you a moving target practice. I blame Grand Theft Auto for this kind of behavior. And caffeine, of course. Anyone else with same experiences? If so, how did you handle it?
JohnJohn 07-21-07, 01:38 PM	I remember waaaayyyy back when Dragon Lance came out there was an explosion in chaotic stupid. One of the characters in the Dragon lance novels was very chaotic... and people molded characters after him. (think its name was fizbin). They did it the same way people molded characters after other major NPCs from various settings. I seriously can't remember how many Elminster or Drizzit "clones" that got created in my campaigns. I wish I had a .25 for every time I had to tell a player no you cant have a half drow pc named drizzit that has all those powers at lvl 1. Not only did they want to make a character exactly like them but they tended to make them chaotic stupid to. I dunno how many forgotten realms and other TSR novels are out there or which ones are popular at any time but I think chaotic characters must be a popular theme in those books since people tend to make up characters based on them and they all seem to be chaoticly challenged... The way I have dealt with it and which seems to work. A) as in the real world there are consequences to actions. You do something stupid and the consequences fall where it may. Even if you are "roleplaying" your character it can lead to bad results. In the city of waterdeep if you break the law and they catch you they might throw you in undermountain for a 10 day. In city of greyhawk there is a fine and you get thrown in the workhouse for a time. Magic items are wealth so after a PC has had their favorite magic trinket taken away it makes them think... On the wildcoast they chain you up outside a village and your job is to keep watch because if you don't the orcs will kill you if they capture you (the wild coast is made up of human villages and towns being invaded by an empire of orcs and the orcs aren't nice when they invade). B) the other way to deal with it is make sure the players know they can deal with it to. Seriously, after a couple incidents I have had players, even all the other people sitting there at the gaming table, step up and get involved. Chaotic stupid can really wreck the other players enjoyment of the game. Players can make house rules to as its not just the DMs game. Also Players can invoke a "our group disapears when his character walks off... if he's going north we go south as fast as possible." Seriously I have found that some players of chaotic stupid will ignore a DM but when the other players get involved and they have a whole group speaking up then the message gets across far better then anything else I had tried. Anyways I can sympathize with you but from experience I can say it will work itself out.
Feriin 07-21-07, 05:16 PM	As DMs, how do you handle chaotic stupid characters? You know the drill, they just do anything they want without thinking of the consequences. They will steal from anybody, fight anybody, kill anybody. Please share your own experiences. There are two chaotic stupid characters in the campaign I'm running. Here's how I handled them during our last session: Scenario #1 Half-orc Barbarian: I'll carry the table. Me: Okay. HB: I'll carry my two party mates (a human cleric and a halfling rogue) and walk up to the port while jumping up and down. Me: While carrying the table? HB: Yeah. Me: Okay, make a strength check. HB: Woohoo! A 20! Me: Okay, you got into the port. You're heavily fatigued because it is 6 kilometers away from where you came from. You would've done fine if you didn't carry your party members AND the table, not to mention jumping up and down. HB: Uh... Me: Since you're extra fatigued, that would be -5 on your Strength. hell, you need to rest. 1) Did you let the Half-Orc Barbarian know the port was 6 Km away? 2) What is his strength really? Lets look at a half-orc barb, I will assume he had a base of 18 for strength, then +2 from his racial bonus. 20 strength at level 1, nice. 3) What is "extra fatigued" anyway? In the books there is no classification. 4) -5 to his strength? Even if "extra fatigued" were a classification of how tired or exausted a character were, it most definatly would not be a -5 to his strength. You do know that in 3.5 it is mostly a system of even numbers, right? Fatigued is a -2 penalty to strength and dexterity. So if "extra fatigued" does exist it would only be a -4 to strength and dexterity. Wich still wouldn't compare to Exhausted , -6 to strength and dexterity. 5) Why would he have to rest for being "extra fatigued" ? No place by the raw does it say you have to rest when you become "extra fatigued" hell it doesn't even say this for Exhausted. (and Exhausted is a term used in 3.5 unlike your "extra fatigued".) 6) I want the weights of the table and the other PC's as well as the barbs actual strength. In short this looks like a player just goofing around a little and a Dm over reacting, then throwwing a hisy-fit. Scenario #2: Halfling Rogue: I'll sell this antique scimitar (said scimitar is really just a rusted scimitar taken from a wandering gnoll) to you, for only 500 gold! (makes bluff check, fails) Merchant on the docks: *in a loud voice*HEY! i'm also selling antique scimitars? Do you want some? I also sell-- HR: He's annoying *fires crossbow, kills merchant* *8 guards appear and asks them to surrender* HR: Can I bluff them, and say that I didn't really did it? Me: No, they SAW you. *Rogue ended up dead* Ok this one looks like it is the PCs fault, but 8 guards at a port, able to kill a pc? What level was the PC that he was able to kill the Merchant in 1 hit , yet not able to defend himself from normal guards? ( note that guards are normally just 1st level warriors) Anyone can be chaotic if they want. But think about the consequences before you do something. In the real world, you simply can't do anything you want. Act like a psychopathic killer who kills everyone who annoys you, and you'll be treated like a psychopathic killer and everyone will wither a) run away from you or b) try to kill you before you kill them. I dislike poor DMing..
geekmasterflash 07-21-07, 05:31 PM	I have to say, your first example is exactly the kind of DM hissyfit crap that makes me leave games. He is a barbarian, he has lots of strength and all in all nothing he did hurt anyone or really had any affect other than "look at what my character can do!" "Extra fatigued?" Does that even exist? I feel you owe your barbarian an appology for being uptight. He has the character to use, so let him use it. Especially if it is harmless. As for example two, I agree that the player was out of line. Chaotic does not mean psychopathicly evil. I am assuming the player was of low level? How else would 8 standard issue guards kill him? All in all, you as the DM have the right to say what happens. Don't let it go to your head. If a player has a Monk and would like to jump around and climb over things to get from point A to B LET HIM. He as the skills and the class abilities for a reason. Same with Barbarians, he has all that strength for a damn good reason. Let him show off alittle. It helps people get a feel for their characters.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-21-07, 05:46 PM	I blame Grand Theft Auto for this kind of behavior. How many times have you gotten bored playing GTA and gone on a random spree of killing/mugging/blowing **** up? Eventually you end up with 6 stars staring down the barrel of a Rhino tank. Play it like that. If he does stupid things, there are consequences. Don't make the consequences inescapable, though. Running down back alleys and stealing getaway cars with cops on your ass is half the fun.
AAB 07-21-07, 05:58 PM	Okay, for all the people who are asking why the rogue could kill a merchant with one shot and get killed by guards - sneak attack. The merchant was flat-footed against the rogue's attack. Easy way for a level 1 character to take out an NPC. And who's going to say that a 1st level rogue would be able to take out 8 guards? Granted, I don't know the specifics of the OP's situation, but it seems reasonable.
Von_Harbringer 07-21-07, 06:16 PM	My solution is simple which I wish that the DMG would put in there and DMs would apply. It's actually quite simple, there is a saying out there "your reputation precedes you". If your character goes around doing stupid crazy things make a note of it (especially if it's done in public). Have it later come up for any diplomacy check for negatives (or other related checks or role playing). Such as the party comes into a town they welcome the paladin, bard, and cleric. However they shun the barbarian and rogue for their history in the area of randomly attacking people or damaging property. Use the helpful, friendly, indifferent, unfriendly, and hostile tables to your advantage. Public opinion can be used to gouge them (pay higher prices for supplies and nights at the in) or willing to help them (gather info). This is a just a suggestion, but most people forget that there is a world around them. :twocents:
Feriin 07-21-07, 06:54 PM	Okay, for all the people who are asking why the rogue could kill a merchant with one shot and get killed by guards - sneak attack. The merchant was flat-footed against the rogue's attack. Easy way for a level 1 character to take out an NPC. And who's going to say that a 1st level rogue would be able to take out 8 guards? Granted, I don't know the specifics of the OP's situation, but it seems reasonable. Sounds reasonable, till you do the math... Small Crossbow (he is/was a halfling) average dmg...3.5 Extra dmg from a sneak attack...3.5 But wait a second, you round down number in 3.5 so it's really.. Small Crossbow .... 3 dmg Sneak attack ....... 3 additional dmg. Now this was a merchant, usually merchants are experts if you will that would make his starting Hit dice be 1d6 + con modifier. Assuming he has only a con of only 10 or 11 then he would have 6 HP starting out..( yes NPCs get max HP at first levels too). So A first level Halfling rogue could do 6 dmg on a sneak attack with a light crossbow at first level, ( mind you now the merchant was not given an AOO when he was shot at point blank range by the halfling) to a 1st level human expert who is a merchant that has 6 hp. Result the Merchant is definatly hurt but still alive at 0 HP. Ofcourse the rogue coudl have critted .. or even rolled maxxed dmg, or rolled max dmg while critting. Max dmg (non crit) 12 dmg , merchant is at -6. Still not dead. Crits and does max 18 dmg, Merchant is dead in this case, do I really need to calculate the ods of this though? In short the Merchant was more than likly arbitrarily "killed" by the dms lack of actions and/or biasedness ( yeah I can't spell sorry) toward the characters..
Feriin 07-21-07, 06:56 PM	My solution is simple which I wish that the DMG would put in there and DMs would apply. It's actually quite simple, there is a saying out there "your reputation precedes you". If your character goes around doing stupid crazy things make a note of it (especially if it's done in public). Have it later come up for any diplomacy check for negatives (or other related checks or role playing). Such as the party comes into a town they welcome the paladin, bard, and cleric. However they shun the barbarian and rogue for their history in the area of randomly attacking people or damaging property. Use the helpful, friendly, indifferent, unfriendly, and hostile tables to your advantage. Public opinion can be used to gouge them (pay higher prices for supplies and nights at the in) or willing to help them (gather info). This is a just a suggestion, but most people forget that there is a world around them. :twocents: It was stated someplace by the OP that the rogue is/was level 1. You simply to not have an infamous reputation at level 1. Let alone any reputation preceeding you. Seriously if character A does something in Town X, how is town Z ( on the side of the world) goign to know about it? That would be like picking out a baby and saying ah there is the next soandso treat him appropiatly.....
Saurus33 07-21-07, 07:13 PM	I agree with JohnJohn. Seriously, unless the session is a comedy/parody session, things have consequences. If they think the fact that they are PC's gives them a license to be completely insane, then show them they can't. Also, the numbers don't really matter here. The point is that the PC's are acting like morons.
Von_Harbringer 07-21-07, 07:16 PM	It was stated someplace by the OP that the rogue is/was level 1. You simply to not have an infamous reputation at level 1. Let alone any reputation preceeding you. Seriously if character A does something in Town X, how is town Z ( on the side of the world) goign to know about it? That would be like picking out a baby and saying ah there is the next soandso treat him appropiatly..... I believe you missed this part... If your character goes around doing stupid crazy things make a note of it (especially if it's done in public). This is for the DM to build the character's reputation. You were assuming that the "DM is out to get the player". What I was saying is that they may get away with it to begin with. Usually from my personal observations that if goes unchecked the player gets more brazen as they level. Level 1-5 word will get out about the party and their members, whether they be deemed as the "village idiot" or "untrustworthy scoundel".
geekmasterflash 07-21-07, 07:21 PM	I believe you missed this part... This is for the DM to build the character's reputation. You were assuming that the "DM is out to get the player". What I was saying is that they may get away with it to begin with. Usually from my personal observations that if goes unchecked the player gets more brazen as they level. Level 1-5 word will get out about the party and their members. That makes perfect sense for the Rogue, but not the half-orc. What reputation do you get from picking people up and carrying them 6 kilometers? I would think people would be IMPRESSED, not hate you for it. As I said, the first example is a DM being a downer for no other reason than s/he can. The second, is incredibly reasonable and in fact a highly likely outcome.
Von_Harbringer 07-21-07, 07:27 PM	That makes perfect sense for the Rogue, but not the half-orc. What reputation do you get from picking people up and carrying them 6 kilometers? I would think people would be IMPRESSED, not hate you for it. As I said, the first example is a DM being a downer for no other reason than s/he can. The second, is incredibly reasonable and in fact a highly likely outcome. Sorry I did happen to think and add on. The half-orc be deemed the village idiot (suits the half orc stereotype), so won't be taken seriously. Carrying party members would make townsfolk question character sanity. Have villagers begin calling him names. I do agree that some DMs need to loosen up and let players have their fun if they aren't disrupting the game.
takkfoecleaver 07-21-07, 07:39 PM	The way I like to deal w/ Chaotic Stupid behavior is to let the players know we can have an out of game chat about what they might have done. It is also beneficial to realize that while there are often times when a longing to do something rash or ill-advised to appease one's ego occurs, you don't act on those impulses in real life, so neither should characters always do the first thing to come into their players' heads.
yossarius 07-21-07, 07:40 PM	The thing to understand here is that people play this game for different reasons. Some people really are interested in playing out some version of their fantasies as James Bond, Indiana Jones, Bilbo Bagins, or whatever. And they perhaps can do it without ruining anyone else's fun. Then, there are some people whose main objective is simply to be obstinate, to everyone else at the table, and they passive-agressively say they're just "playing my character." As DM, part of your job is to find the balance point between ensuring everyone has a good time, and maintaining the level of seriousness you think is required to justify all the preparation time spent on the game out-of-session. If you have a player (or players) who insist on taking nothing in the game seriously, and using it to act out all their anti-authority issues, tell them this bothers you. Explain to them that you spend a great deal of your spare time working on this game, and you would appreciate it if they didn't waste your time by playing their characters in the most childish way they can think of. If they won't (or can't) stop, perhaps it's time to consider if you really want to play D&D with these people at all. My brother was a problem player just like this. Most of his time spent at the table was either in finding a way to annoy everyone else in the party, or making little snide comments about how bored he was that the focus wasn't currently on him. I had more than one conversation with him about it, but he just continued to blow it off. Finally, I just stopped inviting him to games. I don't know if he finally got the messgae or not, but he did stop being a nuisance at my table. A player I had a long time ago, played every character he ever wrote exactly the same. They were all basically John Wayne with pointy ears. It wasn't disruptive, exactly, but it irritated me a little bit. Personally, I try to write each character as to make it unique, so this behavior just seemed alien to my concept of the game. So, again, I talked to him about it. He was somewhat less than forthcoming on the subject. I introduced role-playing aids into my game, in order to encourage making each character at little more original. They were all ignored. I finally decided that it wasn't worth bothering over, and just let it go. Ultimately, it's all a matter of exactly how much this behavior annoys you.
LadyAlaria 07-21-07, 07:50 PM	Most DMs hate it when (seemingly stupid) player actions upset the storyline. Often a plotline that the DM has spent all their creativity to devise, and that has been unfolding over hours of gaming, is suddenly rendered totally irrelevant because the CN PC does something completely unexpected and possibly insanely stupid. The solution . . . don't bother with long, creative, exciting story lines. Instead, make your campaign episodic, with each session run with absolutely no regard for the next. You should have plot elements that continue through the episodes, but these are based in past events, not future plans. Think "A-Team" (if you are old enough to know that show). You may have recurring villains, law officers in hot pursuit, and all the elements of adventure. But all the villain's plots should be wrapped up in the single adventure. Instead of saving the world, the party saves just one village at a time. In this kind of campaign no one PC action can upset the apple cart, short of TPK. The party may fail in their current endeavor, but they and the world will survive, and there will be another damsel in distress to save next week. Some players find this less satisfying - you don't get to save the world - but the lower stakes means they can afford the occasional boneheaded mistake. Talk about it with your players. They may prefer a looser, more episodic game that is more forgiving of such mistakes. Or they may prefer a game where the stakes are higher and the room for error is sliver-thin. If you decide as a group then you'll find it much easier to implement.
Nom 07-22-07, 11:49 PM	I think the Law-Chaos axis needs some seriuos explaining. People, correctly IMO, assume Law is obeying the law (but I add strict samurai/paladin-like honour codes into this), but Chaos, despite being the opposite, is not actually nonlawful, but instead... just random.I can't tell whether you are asserting this or asserting what you think others believe, but both "nonlawful" and "random" are poor ways of describing Chaotic. Lawful is at its heart about tradition, order, and the "proper" way of doing things. Lawful creatures and societies tend to creature rules and laws, because rules and laws are how you maintain control and order and let everyone know what the right thing to do is (slight Good bias in that description). Chaos is at its heart about individual freedom and discovery. It doesn't necessarily seek to attack order or tradition or law; it just finds such concepts silly and constraining and thus ignores them to the extent that they don't fit with how the Chaotic feels the world should be. This isn't to say that a Chaotic doesn't have principles. However, these are likely to be unwritten and adaptable rather than formal and all-inclusive. A Chaotic society is more likely to vest power in a person than in a title, and its rules will govern functional behaviour than codify some concept of justice.
Gareshra 07-23-07, 01:52 AM	I basically tell them OOC not to ruin the game for everyone else. If they keep doing it, I let them die. As is, I just try to avoid letting CS characters into my campaigns. They're just a pain even in dungeons. One such character argued with me for 15 minutes because he thought he was strong enough to wield a hydra corpse as a weapon. In retrospect, I probably should have just let him and given him a -50 penalty on attack rolls because of how unwieldy it is. edit: Just remembered a story I heard about from another DM. I wasn't there, so my details might be slightly off, but basically, a barbarian got bored and frustrated with something, so he turned and started attacking the healer. He was able to kill the cleric before he went down, somehow, and then the players killed him. The campaign literally ended right there.
Soluphobe 07-23-07, 10:08 AM	I DM'd for a CS player once. The details were: He was in a central location for the group and always offered his house. He and I were (had been, actually) friends OOC, and in game he tried to use this as leverage. His characters were always fighters because he found everything else 'confusing,' but he was always whining about how the only thing he could do was 'run up and hit it'. Me: So, X, what do you want to do? X: I'm sick of playing fighters. They never do anything. Me: So what do you want to be? X: I want to do things like run up a wall and flip off it, then cut a guy's head off! Me: You want to look cool. X: No! I just want to be able to do powerful stuff and- Me: Play a wizard. X: But wizards are hard to play! The spell system is confusing. Me: So...what do you want to do? X: I want to play Free&D! [Free&D was basically LARP without the LA and no RP. Essentially you just sat around and ran through imaginary situations with no dice or storyline. Eventually the player (he was always DM) realized how amazingly pointless this was and went back to D&D.] Me: ...why...? X: Because you enforce the rules too much! You're stifling creativity! Me: X, are you still angry that you couldn't play a chaotic half-gnome half-human were-tiger paladin that rode around on a giant spiked mexican jumping bean and shot TNT at your enemies? X: Yeah, why couldn't I do that? It would have been so cool! There were 3 players out of six in this group who were capable of DMing, but I was the only one who stuck with it because the other two just got sick of this guy (and I only stuck with it because it was my only D&D group). Eventually I just decided that the best way to deal with this guy was to actually play the D&D game instead of catering to his whims. He whined and moped when I showed him rules that said he couldn't "run along beside them with my sword out like this so that I cut their throats as I pass, but I'm not discovered." (Honestly, that's a real quote!) If I showed him a spell or feat combination that might emulate some stupid thing he tried to do he would demand to have it right now. When I told him that you couldn't automatically detect hp of you enemies without having Combat Awareness, which required him to be five levels higher and of a different class, he got upset. In the end, he just sat outside the game and drew lame pictures of characters he didn't know were dead and spilled drinks. Whenever he decided to play, if it happened to be his initiative (otherwise he got bored and retreated into muffin-land again (don't ask)), I would let him take an action. Then the weakest monster alive would make an attack against him. He got killed something like 7 times one campaign (short), but I fudged rolls so I wouldn't have to deal with his demands that I build him a new character. Me: Okay, your spell finishes off one of the trolls. X...? [not expecting him to answer] X: I throw some gold at the goblins! How much damage do I do? Player 1: X, you have the best weapon in the game - a greatsword! Why are you throwi- Player 2: Shhh! [he had it in for X, like most players] Me: How much gold do you throw? X: Uhh, 50 gold pieces! How much damage do I do? Me: None. Your gold scatters and clinks away. The troll notices you. X: Trolls? You said they were goblins! Player 1: X, we haven't fought goblins since a month ago! Me: Never mind, it's the troll's attack. Player 1, take *rolls* A damage. Player 2, take *rolls* no damage. Player 3, take *rolls* B damage. The trolls adjust their position. X, take *rolls* C damage, and you're being dragged towards the chute. [long tunnel in the underdark X: What? That's not fair! The goblin wasn't attacking anyone, and now he's attacking me! You can't do that! The goblin wasn't atta- Player 3: X, shut up! Me: In one round X will be in the chute. X, you'll probably survive. How much hp do you have? X: I have D hp. Me: What? You're a fighter! That's less hp than the wizard! [it turned out later he'd copied the hp from the wizards character two levels ago] X: It's you're fault! You're supposed to update the shee- Player 2: X, the DM told us two meetings ago he wouldn't update our character sheets any more. X: Well, I don't like this. The goblin - All: TROLL! X: Troll? What troll? Me: [sighs] Is anyone going to attempt to rescue X from the trolls? [awkward silence] Me: Okay, X, take E damage. You're dead, if you gave me the right hp. Player 1: He's dead. X: This isn't fair! The goblin just attacked me for no reason! Player 3: X, it was a troll, not a goblin. Secondly, it had been attacking everyone for the past five rounds! X: Then why didn't I get any turns? Me: Because every time we called on you you didn't answer. X: Well, you guys are jerks. [goes back to doodling] I won't even get into his 'RP,' which was basically running around the countryside, stealing vodka from bars, and throwing Molotov Cocktails at people. Like the time he set the benign, CG witch who we were getting plot information from on fire for no other reason than 'I thought she was evil' after she may or may not (I forget) have saved his life. I (player at the time) just used what our group called 'the rewind button,' i.e., stabbing him 4 times with my dual-wielding fighter who carried two extremely deadly longswords (and has a Wis of 5, ahh, good times). The DM rewound time back to before X set the witch on fire, and everyone was happy. [/rant] Eventually, I booted him. I'm not proud of it, but I dissolved the group and reformed it without him. After TWO YEARS of dealing with it, I hadn't found any way to get him to a) actually touch a rulebook (he'd never read one), b) get it through his head the the game had a POINT and wasn't just sandbox mode for his pathetic characters to set things on fire, or c) actually show respect for the other players. That, IMO, is the only true way of dealing with these people. Believe me, for two years I tried everything, from coddling him to laying down the rules to making characters for him to letting him go through the session trying to force others to make them for him. And eventually, only booting him worked.
green_girl 07-23-07, 02:12 PM	As for how he killed the merchant, it was a house rule that once you hit 0 hp, you're considered dead. They were the ones clamoring for it, because they were really confused about having negative life and you're still alive. So that means he can kill without a crit, but he critted anyway. The barbarian did not know that the port is six kilometers away, be he knew that it was on the next town, which is a bit far. He has a Strength score of 15, a Wisdom score of 13 and an Intelligence score of 11. So he can't say he's roleplaying someone who wants to be goofing around and acting like an idiot, because the backstory he wrote mentioned that his character is the serious type, and his scores would indicate that he's not an idiot. Maybe I should have docked points on EXP for not roleplaying, but that would be more of an inconvenience to him than temporarily decreasing his strength. And it makes sense a guy with a Strength score of 15 would be tired after carrying a dining table (taken from the militia barracks, a table that can sit 10 people at once), an armored cleric and a halfling rouge WHILE JUMPING UP AND DOWN. Yes, it may have been overboard if we had not discussed beforehand having a serious campaign with heavy RPing because our last one we just finished was too hilarious (in a good sort of way) and they want something different. Come to think of it, maybe I downed him at that time, but overall he was happy that I'm DM. The rogue guy, on the other hand...
BW0222 07-23-07, 04:24 PM	green_girl, @BW0222 He shot first. I was planning on having him captured if he doesn't resist, but apparently his Level 1 rogue is not afraid of 8 fully-armed guards. I figure that, in real life, if you tried shoot policemen when they're asking you to surrender, they really won't mind making you a moving target practice. Yes, but look at it this way... If you kill him, he makes up a new character. Nothing much is learned. But, if you have the guards shot him, then stablize him or subdue him at the last moment, and then cart him off for a trial... roleplaying every party of it for the next couple of hours... then he might get the point. At least for the rest of that session, while the other PCs are worried about the adventure and having fun... he gets to be tossed in a cell, put on trial, his items sold off to the widow and children of the merchant, led out on a cart to be hung, crowds tossing garbage at him and hissing, etc. If you wish to discourage certain behavior, then you need to make the consenquences clear and unpleasant. If "Your dead. Make up a new character." isn't unpleasant enough, then why not try excluding the player from several hours of the game?
MacrossSD 07-23-07, 09:56 PM	In the very first campaign I DM'd, I had set it in Saxon England. The PCs' main villain was an immensely powerful creature looking for an artifact that the PCs had found. One of his lieutenants was the quasi-historical Viking chieftain Ragnar Lothbrok, who had been raised as a tough undead creature. Well, Ragnar gets the PCs in his clutches, but actually stakes their lives to an honor duel. If they can defeat him in armed combat -- no magic, no armor, he'd let them leave. Well, the PCs defeated him, and true to their word, the other undead Vikings in the area who were following Ragnar were about to let the PCs go unmolested. Then, the party's druid decides to go back to try and desecrate and mutilate Ragnar's body, while the undead Vikings were taking it away for an honorable disposal (I had him written to where he'd regenerate after a time). Of course, by doing that, they were under no further compunction to let the PCs leave alive... It was only by the intervention of the fighter-mage and the party's Viking cleric of Forseti that they were able to escape without serious injury. A second story, although one of Lawful Stupid: In another campaign, I had had a small side-encounter planned for the entire party. A group of Blackspawn Raiders were beating up on a benign tribe of lizardmen. The party had split up, however, and only the Paladin and Druid were in the vicinty. Well, the Paladin saw that the lizardmen were in distress, and decided to take three Blackspawn Raiders on singlehanded (he was, IIRC all of 5th or 6th level at the time). Needless to say, he had his head handed to him. The Druid pulled him out of there and healed him a but, whereupon (at 7 HP) the paladin decided he wanted to go back into the fray. (As I watched this, I wondered silently if the paladin had left his cheese dip there.) The Druid had to clobber him and tie the paladin to the druid's animal companion to keep him form running back!
LazyNinja 07-24-07, 11:37 AM	I think one thing DM's should remember is that characters know about things that players may not. Like consequences. Sure, players control characters, but if a player insists on doing something bizarre or ridiculous (when the situation or tone of the adventure doesn't warrant it), it's totally fair to say, "Why?" No one jumps 80 feet out of a window unless they're suicidal or being chased by Balors. Is the character suicidal? No? Then they don't want to jump. Explain rules if you need to. "You know falling causes a lot of damage. If you jump, you'll die." Of course, if the player still insists, then you have little choice. The player might just be visiting this campaign world twice a month, but the character has to live there. "Are you sure you want to attack the merchant? This is your hometown. Your mother's not going to be very happy when the neighbors start talking about her crazy child. And with that 16 Charisma, you're too pretty for jail, capice?" Explain options as well. "You're angry at the merchant? Instead of attacking, why don't you try an Intimidate check?" When a player does something silly, you've got more options than *sigh* Okay. You kill the elf girl and are run through with arrows. or *snort* That's retarded. Do something else. You're a guide first, judge second. NB: this post isn't directed at the OP or their DMing style specifically.
malignor 07-24-07, 12:11 PM	Orc scenario: (str15: heavy load = 200 lbs) "It's pretty heavy, and after a few yards your back hurts. You may have pulled something." * if he continues, keep making strength checks, every 6 seconds * * after 2 km, a couple people start following him and cheering him on. * "Some laugh at the spectacle, and by the time you get to your destination 6km away, you have a small crowd of people, a mixture of hecklers and amused fans." Rogue scenario: "You wanna shoot this guy? Make a spot check, DC 0." (makes the check) "Theres a number of pretty tough looking guards around here, with halberds, short swords and studded leather armor. Shooting this guy could lead to alot of trouble. From what you've heard and seen, guards around here are allowed to use lethal force. The guy over by the fruit stand looks awful big. Need I remind you that your movement speed is 20 and theirs is 30." (shoots anyway) "Congratulations, you are now a wanted midget. Roll initiative as 2 of the the guards yell 'STOP! MURDERER!' and run toward you with their 1d10/x3 halberds ready. The other 6, who didn't see it happen, will join in next round to back up their buddies."