Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HamHam 10-27-05, 07:54 PM	Right... so I have these two gnomes in my campaign... and up till recently they have been fine. Conned some people out of their money (the party cleric included, lol)... pulled some stunts... nothing too bad. Last session... the party meets some guards on the frontier of a kingdom The cleric talks to them and arranges a trip with them back to the nearest town so that they can get transport to the capitol. The gnomes... sneak attack one of the guards and slash his throat open. The cleric heals him and the guards run away. The party splits up, with the gnomes hiding in the country side while the others pretend they don't know them. This works out okay, and although the entire kingdom will soon have bounties posted for two gnomes, the party should be out of there before this becomes an issue. Once they reach the capitol though, the gnomes go out looking for the rogues guild. And they find them, or at least a handful of thugs who work for them. Apparently dissapointed by the fact that they aren't immediately made the leaders of the guild, they take the guys out. This doesn't sit well with the guild, who sends an assasin to find the culprits and kill them, the first part of which he manages to do before getting Hold Personed and Coup de Graced. Now, I'm thinking this shouldn't end there. The guild can find out what happened easily enough (divinations, speak with dead, etc) and should send more assasins to finish the job. It's just bad for business if you let people get away with stuff like this. The last assasin was lv 10, the party is level 8. I'm thinking of making the next one lv 12. Does this sound like a reasonable course of action?
Lalkin 10-27-05, 08:00 PM	actually those gnomes sound very CE than CS. Are you running an evil game or something? Why the hell is the cleric (who is probably good since they healed the guards) sticking with the gnomes? I'd say have the rogues guild start a manhunt for the 2 gnomes. Either they will leave the city fast or die.
Always-Late 10-27-05, 08:01 PM	Out of curiosity, how did they kill the assassin? One potion of invisibility means one death attack, and that's one high fortitude save for a rogue.
HamHam 10-27-05, 08:07 PM	actually those gnomes sound very CE than CS. Attacking guards on horse back while on foot without even consulting the rest of the party and not knowing what sort of legal and military might they may be a part of? Are you running an evil game or something? Why the hell is the cleric (who is probably good since they healed the guards) sticking with the gnomes? Like I said, they had acted CN up to that point. Out of curiosity, how did they kill the assassin? One potion of invisibility means one death attack, and that's one high fortitude save for a rogue. lol. Assasin by trade not prestige class. He was a rogue/invisible blade. Frankly I just threw a rough outline together in five seconds, which really made little difference since he only got a single 6d6 sneak attack in before getting hit with Hold Person.
Cathon 10-27-05, 08:23 PM	May I recommend a Vampire Elf Rogue with levels in Shadow Dancer and Assassin? If you really want to get the job done lethally.
20goingon1232 10-27-05, 08:23 PM	Arcane Trickster + Improved Invisibility + Disintegrate. Rinse and repeat. Stupid players reroll characters at level 1.
Cayden 10-27-05, 08:47 PM	Step 1. Talk to the players. Find out why they are acting chaotic stupid and ask them to stop. They may not even realize they are CS If Step 1. Fails... Step. 2 Frenzied Beserker with the highest foritication enhancement on his armor. ((no more sneak attack)). Repeat as needed
celtredleg 10-27-05, 08:50 PM	Dont send just one. This is not a contest for the guild, they are likely to send in some heavy hitters. A level 12 killer of some sort, and maybe a few fighter types that normaly work as thumb breakers for the guild. The guild might even bring in some cleric or arcane support to make sure it gets done right. Remember, the guild has lots of contacts, and very likely many people own them a favor. Stupid actions merit massive responses.
Kitt-su 10-27-05, 09:07 PM	Of course, if you don't want to constantly prepare these blatant attacks on two PCs for offing a couple of dudes a long time ago, you could just have them kill a couple more assassins and the guild will back off and count its loses. If I ran a huge organization of guys killing people and robbing people I wouldn't worry about two gnomes that killed some stupid guys at the bottom of the food chain.
9mm of Mercy 10-27-05, 09:24 PM	Kill them in their sleep. Any assassin worth his bean is going to know just about every single detail about the party, espescially the gnomes. Find their pattern, know who is up on watch at any point in time. I don't think any of them are making that -10 listen check to hear the assassin sneak up on them. Two little coup de gras and the problem is solved. Honestly, why would a guild of people who skulk in the shadows and manipulate things from behind the scenes (I'm running on the assumption of your average Thieves/Assassins Guild) start world war three just to kill two minor enemies?
Kes Alanadel 10-27-05, 10:32 PM	Tifus recommends the Arcane Merc and Bounty Hunter out of the DMG II. He just sent that pair after one of his party members...... :evillaugh
Steel Cobra 10-27-05, 10:46 PM	I had one out of control PC do this onc My solution: OVERKILL make him learn that there are penilties for his actions. Now this may seem a bit harsh but they MUST know they can't go on doing stuff like this.
Fangthane 10-27-05, 10:46 PM	Evil answer. Send in 4 rogues with high use magical device all armed with Wands of Grim Revenge. 6d6 damage. Hand ripped off arm. Hand attacks as wight with +4 AC and +4 to hit. Keep hitting the two until both hands are ripped off, if they survive they will need to find a regeneration spell. Law and Underworld angry, ain't gonna happen.
Wilds 10-27-05, 10:51 PM	Fireball the room they are in when they sleep. Dont let the fire spread but let the entire room burn
memnochraphy 10-27-05, 10:53 PM	I would suggest asking them what their motivation is. Then ask them if they want your way overpowered Npc's to come and disrupt their plans.
Jancarius 10-28-05, 01:35 AM	Hell, send in a L12 Assassin/Rogue. Have him get an Improved Invisiblity from the guild Wizard/caster type. There should be coup de gracing.
Papa_duval 10-28-05, 05:21 AM	Seriously, whatever you do - don't arbitrarily kill the players. That just generates bad feelings between the players. My advice, send in an overpowered squad and kidnap the whole party. Put them in a situation which is downright scary for them (make them realise that at best they are petty thugs, and there are people out there who will carve them up if they keep acting stupid) Make the npc make several off-hand references to people acting stupidly in 'their' town. Make the kidnapping go exceptionally easy. Don't just limit it to those currently with the gnomes, kidnap every single party member. Make the others also realise that they need to keep the gnomes in check as much as the gnomes need to stop doing stupid things. This is called the warning - there is only ever one with organisations like this. (they don't usually kill first, as they never know when they may have found an enterprising young individual worth recruiting) If the gnomes continue to do stupid things, kill one of them. Isolate him/her, give him the chance to fight but make sure he is on his own, and make sure there really is no chance of him winning (If he is lvl 8 - send a squad of 5 lvl 9-10 characters specifically tailored to take down these rogues). Rinse and repeat if the second gnome does more stupid things. Generally, when your PC's are consistantly doing stupid things, you have a 2-step approach. Step 1: The warning - let them know what will happen if they carry on. Step 2: Ending the problem is the most final way possible.
Leewei 10-28-05, 09:01 AM	Seriously, whatever you do - don't arbitrarily kill the players. That just generates bad feelings between the players. Darned right! The trial and resulting jail sentence for you would suck, too.
Papa_duval 10-28-05, 09:18 AM	Darned right! The trial and resulting jail sentence for you would suck, too. Just remember A friend will help you move house A good friend will help you move a body.
HamHam 10-28-05, 09:28 AM	How about if I have them grabbed and brought back to the guild to be publicly killed in some horrible fashion to serve as examples of what happens to those who defy them?
Papa_duval 10-28-05, 09:38 AM	How about if I have them grabbed and brought back to the guild to be publicly killed in some horrible fashion to serve as examples of what happens to those who defy them? Then you'll create bad feelings amongst your players by having arbitrarily killed their characters. You might as well just say. "The foot of god stamps down on top of you - give me your character sheets, your both dead" It makes them unhappy, and resentful of you, likely causing them to make even worse characters next time round. They have learned no lessons here, you have made no effort to change them, to show them that what they were doing isn't acceptable in your campaign. Always give players 1 chance to change their behaviour, then deal with them. Its the warning thats important, because then you can say 'You were warned, you knew exactly what would happen if you did it again. Its your own fault, i gave you all the chances you needed to change. You wouldn't and i had to follow through with the consequences. Next time you will know, when i say something, i mean it.'
AlphaSquirell 10-28-05, 09:50 AM	Have the guild send them a formal challange. (maybe after another lacky or two gets downed) Say "meet us here for combat, if you prove yourself, you can join us". Do SOMETHING to hint that they can invite the rest of the party to join them. (so that the rest of the party can help the gnomes earn some sort of status in the guild) So, the gnomes arrive to an uneven fight, but having the rest of the party there makes it balanced. (might even let them "win" for bringing along help to ensure that they will win, with no combat necissary) Then, you've got a "Talon Karrde" situation on your hands. Karrde is a Star Wars character who was a mastermind of a smuggler's ring, but wasn't a badguy. During a New Republic/ Empire war, he dealed information to BOTH sides to keep neutralitiy, even though he wanted the New Republic to win. When someone (a friend of his) needed help, he could provide a link to someone who could give them info, or professional help, or supplies, or whatever. If you work this right, you can have a good party that has some underworld connections that can assist them in a time of need.
celtredleg 10-28-05, 10:21 AM	Generaly, CS happens because players believe there will be no respnses to thier actions. change that idea. All of the killer situations work, but take it a step further. Kill them, or take them below 1 hp. The guild takes all of thier items, and then either heals them or raises them down a level. The warning is there. Screw up to much and the hammer comes down. Just taking all of thier things should be a wakeup call they cant ignore. Losing a level as well is a major wakeup.
HamHam 10-28-05, 10:59 AM	Then you'll create bad feelings amongst your players by having arbitrarily killed their characters. Well no, I'll certainly provide every opportunity to escape indicated by the rules and if they can come up with a plan to convince the guild to not kill them (like going to work for them or some such) but in the end if they still can't do anything more than randomly attack people they will die.
Millennium 10-28-05, 11:09 AM	Remember, folks. Chaotic Stupid comes in Neutral and Evil flavors. It seems these players have the Evil flavor. Ahem. Generally, the best way to deal with CS characters is to get vicious with causality. D&D isn't always known for this, what with being "medieval Europe without all the brutal and depressing stuff". A truly realistic setting and set of mechanics would get boring quickly, so the laws of cause and effect often get pretty fast and loose. Bring them back into play, though, even just a little bit, and CS characters will weed themselves out in a nice Darwinian fashion. Actually, though, you're dealing with this pretty well. When you kill someone, their friends and associates get mad, and that's what you're doing with the the Thieves' Guild assassins. Their upcoming status as wanted criminals will also help, because it gives you a reason to bring bounty hunters into play. That said, this tactic has one critical weakness. If your players decide that they like being hunted, then it'll be a lot of fun for them but not so much fun for you. At that point you may have to stop playing fair, break out an epic-level Perfect Wight or some other impressively broken assailant, and pick them off like gnomes in a barrel.
atog_eater 10-28-05, 11:16 AM	the guild have tryed overt now its time for covert; kidnapping and tourcher is good, so's putting poison in their food or getting them addicted to a very expencive drug thats only available from the guild.