Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serious Games Only 03-16-05, 10:34 AM	I was talking to my PC last night and when they go to the Dukes ball at some point in the next few sessions they want to wear their armor and carry their weapons. I told them it metagaming becuase your chracter, even if they might suspect an attack would not wear their armor and weapons to a formal ball they have been invited to by the duke personaly. How do I convice them not to make fools of themselves since I will not have anything bad go down at the ball, without out right telling them that? Maybe having them meet with the duke before the ball asking them if they have formal attire of if he should have it arranged for them will give them the picture? They will get a 50 GP outfit from it so it might make them think about it more. They are ussualy good role players and dont metagame but I think they are over causous about this becuase they have made a pritty serious enemy, one who will be attacking them on the way to meet with the duke and stop them from getting to a trail they are needed at.
rhflyweyr 03-16-05, 10:37 AM	Simple, if they have it on at inappropriate times then just have the guy checking invites at the door ask them to check them. If they keep doing it then add more roleplaying consequences.
lifespeed 03-16-05, 10:45 AM	Simply put, they just aren't getting into the ball with their armor and weapons. Hell, they're going to have to have some pretty serious digs on to even get in, if it's anything like a modern ball. If they have some really fancy weapons they might be able to get by with their sword or something, but I imagine things like clubs or spears and the like would be a no-no. If one of them is an old man a staff might be permissible (Would you deny an old man his walking stick?), but yeah, just punish them for not dressing the right way. Don't let them in, and be sure to give them the idea that getting in is very good, smoozing, good eats and of course attracting lords and ladies attentions are not things to be scoffed at. I'll have to work this idea inot my campaign at some point.
olshanski_home 03-16-05, 10:48 AM	Have some children in the street taunt "Hey Mister, where's the dragon?" "Don't ya have any clothes?" and things like that.
Morka 03-16-05, 10:56 AM	Have several guard in armor be "in service" at the ball, that might reassure paranoïd adventurers. Having the Duke meet them before the ball to make sure they have Formal Attires is good, he should be able to guarantee them there will be no troubles. If the PCs still go there with their armor, then have the doorman ask for "Formal Attire" only. At the worse, you could allow them to carry weapons in their scabbard, with a special honnor knot to prevent using it. If needed, it could take a move action to untie the know.
clarkvalentine 03-16-05, 11:08 AM	Hand them a little character knowledge. "You'll look like an idiot. Nobody wears their full armor to a ball. How many people at that wedding you went to last week did you see wearing kevlar body armor?" And, a rapier or dagger (especially if magical or masterwork) might be appropriate for formalwear, but anyone who tries to bring their four-foot-long Frost Burst claymore is going to have the guards ask to hold it until they leave, and maybe get them on a "Keep an eye on this lunatic" list soemwhere.
pres_man 03-16-05, 11:12 AM	Tell them the only gear they could be allowed to have at a ball is padded armor and a rapier.
Vatras 03-16-05, 11:20 AM	Nobles were notoriously cautious in the former ages (it was forbidden to wear weapons in certain monarchs presence, and I doubt they let people attend a presidents ball with weapons nowadays), and it was therefore custom not to wear them. The players should be made aware what customs are and that bringing arms and armor to a nobles ball is a) brutish, b) suspicious and c) cause for protective custody.
psionichamster 03-16-05, 11:46 AM	all the more reason to spring for glamered armor and small weapons this is a time for the bard/rogue to SHINE, and they wanna wear their smelly, rusty old blood soaked adventuring digs to a ball? don't let em in require a "suit and tie" outfit b4 getting in, even WITH an invite make em the laughingstock of the town really, i never have this problem with our parties...most of the time, its that we're spending TOO much time getting clothes tailored, hats, and such heck, i've had to get another extradimensional space JUST for clothes once namaste, the hamster
CzarGarrett 03-16-05, 12:42 PM	Are they invited by the Duke himself? If so, then there's a good chance the Duke will send a man or two to help outfit the adventurers. I'm sure the Duke has had adventuerers as guests before and can rationally figure that they wouldn't have much beyond adventuring clothing. If they're not invited directly, then maybe the Innkeeper's brother own a tailoring shop and can give them a great price on formal wear. As for weapons- I see two options. One, allow weapons, but only if peacebonded (ie, sword tied into sheath by guard at door). Or two, 'no' weapons allowed. Either way, every other male and probably every 5th female at the ball will have at least 1 dagger somewhere on their person.
Astinex 03-16-05, 01:09 PM	A possible issue is the way the game is run all together. I’m not trying to be critical, only pointing out things I’ve learned over time. I had problems with players never wanting to get out of “gear” during a game session. Though when I look back at those times I can see I gave the Players reasons to be paranoid. Not that I would attack them every chance I got or twist every scenario into a betrayal, but I would spring surprises on them when they least expected it. Also, I never “fleshed out” the reasons for NOT wearing armor. It was always taken for grated that they were wearing their gear almost all of the time, (byproduct of early D&D dungeon crawls). Things I changed to correct these issues. 1) Used the optional rules, (2nd Ed), regarding drawbacks of wearing armor all the time. Fatigue, rashes, cramps, sores, infections, etc. For 3.x I just applied the +/-2 rule for most of these hindrances. 2) I played up the “freak” factor in civilized areas if Players wore their gore stained armor/gear in public. I made it a point to drill home the fact that in peaceful settings people would stare at PC’s in full battle gear. Only the seedy taverns/establishments would allow PC’s in while wearing armor. 3) I played up the “no armor” aspect. PC’s in normal attire were treated well and accepted more readily in peaceful settings. I stopped surprising them with their “pants down” and if I did surprise them I made sure it was an encounter balanced for unarmored PC’s. In the end I basically made armor a hindrance in some settings. This resolved the issue quickly as Players looking for every advantage learned to develop PC’s that were more balanced in and out of armor in any campaign that had a strong urban setting.
Maerdash 03-16-05, 01:53 PM	If they are dead set on wearing armor tell them that they cam either go looking like idiots or they can buy cerimonial armor and weapons. if they walk in to the ball wearing full plate have the ladies laugh behind their backs while the men give them condecending smiles :D
danielinthewolvesden 03-16-05, 02:02 PM	Knights often insisted on their right to wear a sword. Clerics of a warlike diety might do similar. Wearing Mithri chainshirt under your fancy dress wouldn't be out of place.
Cantankerous 03-16-05, 02:09 PM	Personally I think that at a formal ball even a rapier is in bad taste; heck even a formal dagger would very likely be considered out of place. Simply assure them that this is totally out of character behavior, no one does it, no one, not even the mentally unbalanced. Simply, they do not get in dressed like idiots. The Duke's own guards would be complete morons to allow anyone in his presence dressed for the battle field and butchery. Put to them in those words, they might get the message. if not, then simply don't let them do it. If they miss out on a major plot line, route it to them a different way, a henchman of the Duke perhaps, who meets with them because: While you are most efficient warriors, you have all the social grace of backwards children. Milord Duke does not meet with such, even if he needs to employ them. Too, when in any setting larger than a tiny mountain village, wearing armor and openly carrying weapons of war is never ok. Noblemen and even town Burghers never allowed that type of behavior in their lands. It was a direct and very voluable insult to their ability to keep the peace on their lands /in their town. Only gentlemen could, in some periods (ala the Musketeers), not all, get away with openly carrying weapons, and even then they were restricted to light weapons and as little as no armor. Get them out of this habit. It just is NOT acceptable. All of the PC's should know this in character, but if you're a dice roller for every occasion group, have one of them make a Diplomacy roll; DC 5 at most, to know it. Isshia
HomebrewedMonster 03-16-05, 02:10 PM	You must have an unimagative party, if they are not allowed to wear armor to the ball, but want too they should find another means of doing so. Hiding weapons: 1.) A rogue can easily smuggle in weapons, a couple of daggers hidden on his person: two holstered in the traditional armpit style, two boots, two wrists, bam six daggers for the party to fight with if any thing comes out. As long as the rogue as a decent sleight of hand, the guards will not spot the daggers. 2.) Gloves of storing, rather expensive, but getting one for the main tank might not be a bad idea. 3.) Shrink item, if the wizard has third level spells, his is a good idea. Everyone has a little piece of paper in their pocket in the shape of a weapon. Just remember this only works on non-magical weapons. 4.) A single rapier or longsword would probably be exceptable. In many old ball-room type events, military personal were allowed to wear their sabers. Now this does not mean the barbarian can bring in his great ax, but invited adventurers might be allowed to have a small dagger on their belt or a single sword. Hiding Armor: 1.) Get the glamored armor enchantment, its only 3500ish. Then they can walk in looking like they are wearing a noble's outfit. 2.) If the party caster can cast disguise self, that can mask their armor the same as the glamored armor enchantment. That is part of the fun of DnD, thinking of creative ways of dealing with encounters. If your party cannot think of them, then that is their problem. The solutions are rather simple and these are the things that immediately come to my mind.
Cantankerous 03-16-05, 02:12 PM	Knights often insisted on their right to wear a sword. Ahh, no. They did not demand the right to do anything when in the presence of a sovereign ruler; not even if they out ranked him. That type of thing would have been a grotesque discourtesy. 4.) A single rapier or longsword would probably be exceptable. In many old ball-room type events, military personal were allowed to wear their sabers. Now this does not mean the barbarian can bring in his great ax, but invited adventurers might be allowed to have a small dagger on their belt or a single sword. Actually this became true only in the Colonial Period, post Rennaissance, when swords were no longer considered a primary weapon of offense; when they had been supplanted by guns and even then it would have only been acceptable if the HOST allowed it. Even in very military nations and in very militant circles, often swords and the like were cased in a special room before the guest was allowed entry. During many of the banquets and events in Austrian society, for instance, and Austria was a nation that held on doggedly to this even into the twentieth century, if pictures were to be taken, the military guests were often photographed and then they did off with their hardware, which was a pain in the butt for everyone concerned in a crowd, and went in to the actual Ball or whatever unarmed. Isshia
Serious Games Only 03-16-05, 02:25 PM	You must have an unimagative party, if they are not allowed to wear armor to the ball, but want too they should find another means of doing so. Hiding weapons: 1.) A rogue can easily smuggle in weapons, a couple of daggers hidden on his person: two holstered in the traditional armpit style, two boots, two wrists, bam six daggers for the party to fight with if any thing comes out. As long as the rogue as a decent sleight of hand, the guards will not spot the daggers. 2.) Gloves of storing, rather expensive, but getting one for the main tank might not be a bad idea. 3.) Shrink item, if the wizard has third level spells, his is a good idea. Everyone has a little piece of paper in their pocket in the shape of a weapon. Just remember this only works on non-magical weapons. 4.) A single rapier or longsword would probably be exceptable. In many old ball-room type events, military personal were allowed to wear their sabers. Now this does not mean the barbarian can bring in his great ax, but invited adventurers might be allowed to have a small dagger on their belt or a single sword. Hiding Armor: 1.) Get the glamored armor enchantment, its only 3500ish. Then they can walk in looking like they are wearing a noble's outfit. 2.) If the party caster can cast disguise self, that can mask their armor the same as the glamored armor enchantment. That is part of the fun of DnD, thinking of creative ways of dealing with encounters. If your party cannot think of them, then that is their problem. The solutions are rather simple and these are the things that immediately come to my mind. They are at the top of level 2 right now so they cant really afford much in the way of magic, the only reason they have been invited is becuase they managed to stop a CR 4 monster from ripping appart a defencless Hamlet, the duke would not have been able to send men intime to stop it, might have been weeks before they even know it was gone. Since they will be in the duke's town because they are going to testify ageinst one of the suspects for who released the monster there they were invited to the ball. While you are most efficient warriors, you have all the social grace of backwards children. Milord Duke does not meet with such, even if he needs to employ them. I will definetly say this if they go as far as to not go to the ball, but hopefully they will not go that far.
mercurial67 03-16-05, 02:35 PM	As was stated by others, this is easily handled via role playing. I've had people refuse to serve players because they were dragging their halbard into the bar room before. One of the nobles they were reporting back to sneared at them and told them point blank to take a bath and wear proper clothes the next time. Two characters were later invited back for a dinner and were also reminded to bath. Later I had the same noble make comments about how they were at least "adequately" dressed and didn't stink anymore when they bought a courtier's outfit (but didn't buy any jewelry). I also have NPCs treat the characters based on their looks. The two (now one sadly) characters who own full plate are generally treated like nobility because usually only the rich own that sort of armor. The sorcerer/archer who has a peasant background and still dresses that way is treated as such or as one of the servants for the full plate wearers. Just remember, unless they have some sort of a reputation around town, characters will be treated based on their looks. It doesn't matter if characters have a bag of holding full of gold when they look like some poor beggar. Shop keepers will turn them out unless they can show they have money. I've turned the PCs away from very nice inns before because of their dress (or lack there of) Some places will take you if you can show you have money, but there are those few places who won't upset their regular clientel by allowing a bunch of ruffians in. As for weapons, inform them they can't take them in and will have to leave them with the guards. If it forces them to leave their +3 shocking burst sword with some 2nd level guard, they may think twice about carrying their gear everywhere.
HomebrewedMonster 03-16-05, 02:44 PM	They are at the top of level 2 right now so they cant really afford much in the way of magic, the only reason they have been invited is becuase they managed to stop a CR 4 monster from ripping appart a defencless Hamlet, the duke would not have been able to send men intime to stop it, might have been weeks before they even know it was gone. Since they will be in the duke's town because they are going to testify ageinst one of the suspects for who released the monster there they were invited to the ball. Ok, well even then, the party rogue is going to be the saving grace (if they have one). He can use a disguise check to hide the some light armor, such as a chain shirt or leather armor. It'll just be hot for them (wearing clothes over armor). Also hiding weapon via sleight of hand is still an option, if he has a +5 and takes 10, the guards are probably not going to spot them (most likely the guards would be taking 10 as guest entered the ball). If they can find it, boot shealths and wrist shealths cost 15gp each and give a +2 to sleight of hand checks to hide a dagger, so everyone in the party should be able to at least sneak one weapon into the ball if they try. Also tell them that if these are the duke's guards, they are probably higher level then them. As a high official, I would hire the best I could find that I could afford. So the guards might be Warrior 3 and have nice mastercrafted equipment.
Kalithor 03-16-05, 03:21 PM	I'm sure somebody already mentioned this, but I was pinched for time and didn't read all prior posts. Security reasons. If the duke is having the ball, no doubt other nobles will be there. Sure, they may be the Duke's pals, but still, the regional guard would be on-hand to ensure the safety of all the nobles attending, and THEY might not be the PC's buddy. Its the whole "Its okay, I'm with the DJ" bit. The bouncer still isn't letting you in with a weapon, with the DJ or not.
Puck 03-16-05, 03:40 PM	For the most part i agree with the armor. But weapons such as swords and daggers were allowed into social events. In fact, if a knight were to enter, and he was a knight in the service of the local lord (or who ever is in charge) then it would be a direct insult to the knight AND his family line to tell him he couldnt wear his weapon. Granted not EVERYONE had a swords, but most had small daggers. Mostly for show. But i dont see a problem with letting pc's have a (note i said a, as in singular) weapon on there hip, as long as its a dagger, short sword, long sword, or rapire. And it wouldnt be a bad idea for the rouge to sneak in a chain shirt or something. But thats for the truely parinoid. If anyone has ever been to the SCA. Some of the ball events they do there are guards in heavy armor with swords, daggers, and a polearm of some type lineing the room. They look like statues at times, but if someone starts something, these seemingly harmless people spring to life to "settle" any comotion. As for your pc's being invited by the duke for saveing....whatever they saved. I dont see a problem with a dagger or something, but your right to not let them wear armor. And if your party does fight an incounter at the ball make sure its set to what there "equiped" for, aka: no armor and few weapons. Puck King of Guam
Thelandrach 03-16-05, 04:40 PM	Unfortunately for several of the suggestions, it sounds like the GM wants to jump the party with a not-too-lethal-I-hope encounter on the way to the ball. Having them turned away at the ball for wearing their armor is too late. I suggest having their sponsor arrange fittings at a high-fashion clothier several days (at least) ahead of time, and have the clothier make it blatantly obvious that weapons et al. just are not worn with the latest designs.
Evil Wizard 03-16-05, 05:05 PM	Daggers are probably okay. The dagger was more than just a thing to stab people with, it was also a tool and an eating utensil, among other things. Everyone had a knife. The Duke's own guards are still wearing armor and carrying weapons, so one unruly guest with a dagger is of little concern. I wouldn't penalize them for bringing in a single dagger, though they might get snide comments from other nobles if they're not masterwork jewely daggers. Armor, definitely not. If someone happens to be lucky enough to be in possession of a mithril chain shirt, you can hide that under your fancy clothes, but otherwise showing up in armor is just tacky. Sorry adventurers, but this time you're just going to have to follow the dress code. One of the Duke's messengers can politely explain this to them - I'm sure most adventurers feel naked without their hardware, so this can't be an uncommon occurance. I pretty much agree with everyone else, though. If they're not going to play ball (heh), they don't get it. You don't get into an exclusive nightclub wearing a kevlar vest and toting an assault rifle, and the medieval equivalent isn't going to fly here either.
Drachasor 03-16-05, 05:27 PM	If they suspect a real attack and are trusted by the Duke, then they should be able to request being guards for the night (and wearing some cloth items to signify such). Of course, Rogues, Wizards, and Druids (among some others) could get by posing as guests; they don't need armor as much. If they aren't trusted by the Duke or if there are political reasons why he can't accept them as guards, they'll have to make due on their own. -Drachasor
Thoronmir 03-16-05, 05:30 PM	A couple of quick points … The comments regarding what is and isn’t “acceptable” are, of course, subjective. You as the DM determine the social mores of your world. You have to decide how closely your world’s customs mirror real-life historical precedents. You must also decide whether any of the PCs have any reason to know how the aristocracy dresses for such events (that will depend on the PCs’ Knowledge skills and backgrounds). George the Erstwhile-Farmer-Now-Warrior and Kevin the Druid may have no reason to expect that armor and weapons are not allowed at the Duke’s soiree. Avoid metagaming at all costs. Perhaps the most useful suggestion I’ve seen so far is to have the Duke arrange for a tailor to dress the PCs, since the Duke is likely to realize that adventurers may lack the knowledge and/or means to dress appropriately. If the PCs insist on showing up armed and armored, your solution is simple. Depending on how you decide your world views such situations, the PCs should either be denied admittance to the event (if the issue is viewed as a true security threat by the Duke’s guards) or, as others have noted, ridiculed for their provincial manners.
psionichamster 03-16-05, 05:32 PM	also, how long are they gonna be at this party... a potion of mage armor (lvl 1) costs HOW much? there's your +4 ac for an hour, and best yet, you aint wearing 20 lbs of obvious steel as far as weapons, this is why IUS is such a golden feat. of course, it's always nice to surprise your players with some silly stuff sometimes...fighting with the cutlery/table legs can prove quite dramatic, especially if they have to keep the guests alive namaste, the hamster
Astinex 03-16-05, 06:10 PM	...of course, it's always nice to surprise your players with some silly stuff sometimes...fighting with the cutlery/table legs can prove quite dramatic, especially if they have to keep the guests alive. That reminds me of one of my favorite pieces of cover art. The cover of the FR Moonsea Accessory... Two men in a tavern fighting. One with a rapier. The other parries the rapier with a fork and thrusts a hard loaf of French Bread into the Rapier Wielder's jaw.
fdnickerson 03-16-05, 06:45 PM	I agree with everyone that they probably shouldn't be allowed in the duke's presence while armed. However, they are not metagaming. They've made an enemy and they can reasonably expect him to strike at any time. If somebody had a hit out on me I wouldn't leave the house without protection. Remember, It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. If I were them I would have at least one hideout weapon.
danielinthewolvesden 03-16-05, 06:53 PM	Ahh, no. They did not demand the right to do anything when in the presence of a sovereign ruler; not even if they out ranked him. That type of thing would have been a grotesque discourtesy. Isshia But they're not in this case, they are at a Ball of a Peer, a Noble. Not the Court of the King- a Royal. In any case, at the British Royal coronations, being allowed to carry a sword is a big deal and honour, so indeed, knights & such did & still do carry swarods in the presence of Royalty.
BW0222 03-16-05, 07:25 PM	Serious Games Only, Never use out of game fixes if there are easy in-game fixes. In a typical middle-ages world, no one except nobility and their servants, were permitted to carry weapons. Arming the peasantry is a capital offense. Lords, rulers, and monarchy lived in fear of armed folks revolting. Obviously, it is slightly different in a typical D&D campaign. However, any lord is certainly not going to allow weapons, armor, or magic in the court. In the D&D world, it wouldn't be unexpected for a guards to ask for component pouches, cast detect magic and collect any wands, potions, and anything else magical. A DC 5 knowledge nobility, should let them know that arms and weapons at a formal ball isn't permitted. If they continue, just role play it... They arrive at the gates. There are lots of guards, servants, and a few guests arriving. Women are dresses in fancy silk dresses of pale blues and creams, with eloborate hair, small silver lockets, etc. Men are in tunics matching their dates, a single belt with a crest, leggings, and high boots, etc. As the men approach the guards with women in arms, hand over their daggers or swords, present their invitation, and enter. A ball suggests dancing. Dancing requires a lot of movement, hand holding, bows, twirls, stomping, etc. Clanking around the floor in armor (of any type) would ensure that you don't get a dancing partner. It would be an insult to the host (who supplies security) and the others (suggesting that you don't trust them).