Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psyclon3_jack 10-02-06, 10:26 PM	Okay here is the deal. I am starting up a new campaign, and like most launches I have a get together with the players and ask everyone what they want to play and where they see there characters going, etc. One player surprised me. He came up with a short backstory, something I encourage with all my players, but this one contained a ranger being hit with a baneful polymorph spell and turned into a raven or a dog. I suggested to lean towards dog (more useful to the party in a dungeon, and a full 1 HD creature vs a 1/4 HD) I thought it was a great Idea, something new and fresh. But after everyone left I began to wonder if as a GM I had created a problem. I can forsee the other players treating him like a dog, and he can't fight back. I can see the dog not being able to go everywhere in town that the players can. Alienating him from possible hooks and forcing him as a player to simply sit at the table and watch the others roleplay. No way to reward him with gold or magic items, etc. Not to mention feat selection. Savage species time or force him to stick with non-creature. However, Despite all the negatives, I can also see the other side of the coin, the whole lassie "what is it boy." The whole very smart dog saving the party, the scent/tracking possibilites, and the built in side quests to slowly reverse the process and make him human once again. What is a GM to do? Ideas? Suggestions? Is this simply a monster that needs to go back under the bed? Thanks in advance. PsyJack
Toloran 10-02-06, 11:22 PM	It can work but the player needs to be a GOOD roleplayer to pull it off. It also helps if at least one of the non-dog players is a good roleplayer as well. If both of those conditions are not met you will probably run into trouble if you don't get him back to normal relatively quickly.
Arganis 10-03-06, 09:50 AM	I encourage with all my players, but this one contained a ranger being hit with a baneful polymorph spell and turned into a raven or a dog. I suggested to lean towards dog (more useful to the party in a dungeon, and a full 1 HD creature vs a 1/4 HD) Hopefully you don't plan on him having 1 HD. From Baleful Polymorph: The target retains its own hit points. The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice. I can forsee the other players treating him like a dog, and he can't fight back. He would certainly need a way to communicate. I can see the dog not being able to go everywhere in town that the players can. And many, many places the other players can't. No way to reward him with gold or magic items, etc. Not to mention feat selection. I don't really see how he is prevented from taking any feats, but due to using a dog's BAB and saves instead of his own, and the inability to weild any weapons or armor, he's going to be totally ineffective in combat. I think you may want to show him exactly how mechanically useless he will be. and the built in side quests to slowly reverse the process and make him human once again. Uhm... You mean spending 375gp for a dispel magic scroll?
Kradlo 10-03-06, 11:23 AM	Let's see. No opposable thumbs. No ability to speak to the other players. Black-and-white vision only. All are definite downsides. Also, he'll be treated as a dog by NPCs, so he won't be allowed in to many shops. Then there are fleas and ticks to consider. When he finally gets cured, he'll have some stories to tell.
Kalion 10-03-06, 11:31 AM	From the SRD: The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw). So he can infact communicate by writing in the dirt with his paw at the very least. Also presumably he passed the will save after being in the form for 24 hours (though I guess that can be included in the backstory).
Nikeratos 10-03-06, 12:08 PM	Your character must first decide whether he wants to ever regain his form. If he does, fine. If he rather intends to live a dog life, here are some suggestions: Choose combat feats. You can take advantage of monster feats as well, which could make a very valuable character. If your ranger intends to use magic, you might allow it to take Natural Spell. It's designed for wild-shaped druids, but this case is similar enough. And it has the advantage that few will suspect the dog. Don't be afraid to include a few spells. A Greater Magic Fang enhanced by Permanency would be ideal. If you have a willing spellcaster, you could forge a "Belt of Enlargement" for him. I don't remember if baleful-polymorphed creatures change their type, so you'll have to choose between Enlarge Person or Animal Growth for this one. Also, you could allow paw-bracelets to be devised as a substitute for rings. They could serve almost any purpose; what about a "Bracelet of Healing" or a "Bracelet of Bull's Strength"? These are just a fraction of what's available. Finally, if your character gets weary of having little chance of doing anything worthwhile, multiclassing into a psion could change all his panorama. Remember: when your body is almost useless, use your mind.
Cifer 10-03-06, 12:26 PM	So he can infact communicate by writing in the dirt with his paw at the very least. If you really want to settle for two short sentences per minute... Choose combat feats. You can take advantage of monster feats as well, which could make a very valuable character. I doubt there are any monster feats a dog can use when a character cannot. I'm afraid that this character, should he not come out of his dogshape, will prove to be very unsatisfying.
lears_fool 10-03-06, 12:44 PM	I'm afraid that this character, should he not come out of his dogshape, will prove to be very unsatisfying. Actually, this sort of character can be quite fun, especially in the hands of a good role-player. There are indeed disadvantages but often the dog-with-a-human mind can have advantages as well. If going the dog route me might be best off choosing wolf for that nifty trip ability. The only concern I'd have is the fact that he can suddenly be un-dogged with a dispel magic. . completely and permanently changing his character. However, ironically, by the rules if he was baleful polymorphed at 2nd level into a dog, died, and was reincarnated by a druid he would end up as a first level animal (could be wolf, dog, whatever. .up to the DM). And then a dispel magic wouldn't dramatically change his character (and that could make for a fun addition to the backstory)
Arganis 10-03-06, 12:52 PM	However, ironically, by the rules if he was baleful polymorphed at 2nd level into a dog, died, and was reincarnated by a druid he would end up as a first level animal (could be wolf, dog, whatever. .up to the DM). And then a dispel magic wouldn't dramatically change his character (and that could make for a fun addition to the backstory) If a dead character is reincarnated by a druid, they can end up as an animal... regardless of whether or not they were polymorphed prior to death. The RAW is silent on this point, but I maintain that permanent magical effects with a target of "creature" end immediately when the creature is slain. Therefore dying and being resurrected is also a way (albeit a more expensive one than dispel magic) to lift the "curse".
lears_fool 10-03-06, 01:00 PM	If a dead character is reincarnated by a druid, they can end up as an animal... regardless of whether or not they were polymorphed prior to death. Not by the rules, humanoids become humanoids according to the SRD . however. . The RAW is silent on this point, but I maintain that permanent magical effects with a target of "creature" end immediately when the creature is slain. Therefore dying and being resurrected is also a way (albeit a more expensive one than dispel magic) to lift the "curse". Well, the RAW's not really silent. . Permanent The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic. Which means that the dead guy who had been polymorphed into a bunny would still be a bunny (even an edible bunny) if you killed him. HOWEVER, I do think that by common sense you could rule that either the reincarnated man-dog would be a humanoid or an animal depending on interpretation. Personally, I think you could even say that a druid CAN reincarnate a humanoid into an animal, it's just not a common usage of the spell or it's not frequently granted. Either way though. . post reincarnation dispelling's no longer an issue :)
Arganis 10-03-06, 04:03 PM	Not by the rules, humanoids become humanoids according to the SRD You're right here. I missed that. Well, the RAW's not really silent. The RAW is silent about how whether any "Creature" spells last after death, regardless of duration. By all means, please find me a rule that adjudicates whether or not a magic circle against evil effect is either preserved or terminated if its target is killed during its duration. Which means that the dead guy who had been polymorphed into a bunny would still be a bunny (even an edible bunny) if you killed him. HOWEVER, I do think that by common sense you could rule that either the reincarnated man-dog would be a humanoid or an animal depending on interpretation. Only if the Baleful Polymorph effect remains after death. Note that normal Polymorph explicitly ends on death. Personally, I think you could even say that a druid CAN reincarnate a humanoid into an animal, it's just not a common usage of the spell or it's not frequently granted. I agree that this should be allowed. However, if this nonstandard use of the spell is employed, the target of the reincarnation should probably be entitled ion to refuse the spell.
lears_fool 10-03-06, 04:12 PM	The RAW is silent about how whether any "Creature" spells last after death, regardless of duration. By all means, please find me a rule that adjudicates whether or not a magic circle against evil effect is either preserved or terminated if its target is killed during its duration. Only if the Baleful Polymorph effect remains after death. Note that normal Polymorph explicitly ends on death. Regular Polymorph isn't a permanent spell, it's got a duration (a rather short one even) I do believe that permanent effects are just that, permanent unless dispelled. That is indeed the case by RAW (in the permanent description) and there's nothing that disputes that. If we're talking by the rules, permanent is just what it says. Of course, with resurrection it's arguable that it's impacting the original spirit and not the body, so it could easily be ruled either way (that a bugbear polymorphed into a chicken could either become a kitten or an elf depending on the DM in question) Let's face it, it's not a scenario druids likely run into much ;) I agree that this should be allowed. However, if this nonstandard use of the spell is employed, the target of the reincarnation should probably be entitled ion to refuse the spell. Well, considering the player's TRYING to be a humanish-type turned into a dog I wouldn't be arguing that in his favor :P I was just identifying ways in which he could play his wolf-character and not have to worry about an errant dispel totally changing his character concept
Papapeperoni 10-03-06, 05:13 PM	You could do away with the polymorph and just say a Reincarnation spell went awkward. The mechanics even support it. On a 100 with a Reincarnation, it is the DM's choice, which can provide some wacky results. Mental stats will remain the same, and he'll gain some physical bonuses. I believe that is the best solution, and if to take any canine animal, I believe the wolf is the best (and coolest :cool: ). Very nice idea BTW, I think I'm gonna steal it :). Greetings, --Papapeperoni
lears_fool 10-03-06, 05:19 PM	You could do away with the polymorph and just say a Reincarnation spell went awkward. The mechanics even support it. On a 100 with a Reincarnation, it is the DM's choice, which can provide some wacky results. Mental stats will remain the same, and he'll gain some physical bonuses. I believe that is the best solution, and if to take any canine animal, I believe the wolf is the best (and coolest :cool: ). Very nice idea BTW, I think I'm gonna steal it :). Greetings, --Papapeperoni Actually, to be honest I liked that option the best as well, I just figured the other method was worth bringing up is it seemed likely to work AND (far more importantly) it was in line with the OP's description of the character's background. :) There is a third option too. I had a BBEG that ended up getting True Mind Switched into a squirrel. ;)
Cifer 10-03-06, 06:28 PM	Actually, this sort of character can be quite fun, especially in the hands of a good role-player. There are indeed disadvantages but often the dog-with-a-human mind can have advantages as well. I quite believe you that the character can be funny, but for how long? At which point are the PCs so advanced that the doggy has real problems staying alive in combat? I'd play such a character for two, maybe three sessions - but after that I'd probably stop doing so, because the role becomes old quite fast.
Thubby 10-03-06, 06:45 PM	HEADBAND OF TELEPATHY!!!!! coms problem solved i like the reincarnate idea better, personaly. i did have a riencarnated barbarian squirel once (we used rat stats) once we figured how to comunicate, most the problems were pretty minor. thayan gladiator anyone?
Psyclon3_jack 10-03-06, 08:01 PM	Wow! Let me first just thank all of you for your input. Many good thoughts and suggestions. Gives me a lot to ponder. As for the reincarnate spell vs Baneful polymorph, The player only worked the BP spell into his background as a "we engaged him in combat and look what he did to me" as well as a "I can't wait to make him pay for this" possibility. I will discuss with him the possiblity of the reincarante spell. Does he want to always be in that form, or does he want to be human later on. I get the feeling he wants to be the "Dog tracker/ranger" concept for a few levels and then switch back to human and add a few levels in druid. If that is the case I will push him to taking more levels of druid faster so he can wild shape. He is attempting to put alot into a level 1 character, with backstory and baggage to be resolved in the campaign. With a little weeding and some fertilizer I think this will grow into a memorable experience. Thanks again for all the input, you have helped alot.
Arganis 10-04-06, 10:04 AM	I do believe that permanent effects are just that, permanent unless dispelled. That is indeed the case by RAW (in the permanent description) and there's nothing that disputes that. If we're talking by the rules, permanent is just what it says. Four wizards baleful polymorph Joe into a duck. They kill, cook, and eat Joe--each taking an equal share of food. Then, these wizards travel in opposite directions to the far ends of the earth to drop the kids off at the pool, and 20 years later someone casts True Resurrection on Joe. You're telling me he returns as a duck because no one cast dispel magic on him? There's some hyperbole for ya. Permanent is not ill-defined... "Until dispelled" is a perfectly sound definition, even though it's not literally permanent. A more literal translation of the definition would be "doesn't end naturally". It's the same distinction as the one between true immortality (cannot die) and merely infinite lifespan (won't die unless killed). However, there is no statement in the RAW that governs the destruction or sudden in-eligibility of the target of a spell. With respect to this problem, it doesn't matter whether the spell will end in 4 rounds, 4 years, or the next time Dispel Magic is cast. If the target is eliminated or otherwise becomes an in-eligible target of the spell during its duration, what happens to the spell? Where does the RAW tell you what happens? If you cast Protection from Evil on a creature just before it dies, does its corpse continue to benefit from +2 AC? What happens if you cast Silence on parchment and then burn it? Do you have a Silenced pile of ash? It doesn't matter what you answer. The RAW doesn't say. There are no explicit statements issued by the RAW on whether effects (with target of Creature) persist after death and resurrection. The only one I know if is this: If you Res/True Res a former vampire, they are restored to life, not unlife, even though vampirism is literally permanent within a "lifetime". It is important that GMs recognize this oversight and deal with it in their own way. Any way is fine, but to declare that the RAW has the objective answer is displacement of responsibility, as well as false justification.
Arganis 10-04-06, 10:16 AM	Back to the topic at hand... Let me first just thank all of you for your input. Many good thoughts and suggestions. Gives me a lot to ponder. As for the reincarnate spell vs Baneful polymorph, The player only worked the BP spell into his background as a "we engaged him in combat and look what he did to me" as well as a "I can't wait to make him pay for this" possibility. I think reincarnate is the way to go. It can't be dispelled, and our discussion has already shown that you needn't couple it with Baleful Polymorph to get the desired result Since an enemy could have killed him in the first place. He could still attempt to realize vengeance. I will discuss with him the possiblity of the reincarante spell. Does he want to always be in that form, or does he want to be human later on. I get the feeling he wants to be the "Dog tracker/ranger" concept for a few levels and then switch back to human and add a few levels in druid. If that is the case I will push him to taking more levels of druid faster so he can wild shape. I would like to point out here that being a Dog instead of a Human is at very best an equal exchange. Scent is great and all, but it hardly outweighs the disadvantages. As such, from a mechanical standpoint, there should not be a mechanical price for becoming human again. You might just as easily consider that, once he takes a few levels in druid as a dog to gain the Wildshape ability, that he has learned to control his form and may return to his natural one.
Alrick 10-04-06, 10:30 AM	The errata of the PHB says that the target of a Baleful Polymorph gains all the statistics (with a few exceptions ) of it's new form. Since ability scores are not mentioned the character would have an Int score of 2. Playing such a character won't be much fun on the long run.
lears_fool 10-04-06, 11:44 AM	Four wizards baleful polymorph Joe into a duck. They kill, cook, and eat Joe--each taking an equal share of food. Then, these wizards travel in opposite directions to the far ends of the earth to drop the kids off at the pool, and 20 years later someone casts True Resurrection on Joe. You're telling me he returns as a duck because no one cast dispel magic on him? Actually, I observed that this is the place where there's lots of fudge room, because there's really nothing on whether ressurections of any sort (that I've noticed) that state what 'you' gets brought back. And what about long-term afflictions? Lycanthropy. .the list goes on. That area is indeed unclear. . however. . Permanent is not ill-defined... "Until dispelled" is a perfectly sound definition, even though it's not literally permanent. A more literal translation of the definition would be "doesn't end naturally". It's the same distinction as the one between true immortality (cannot die) and merely infinite lifespan (won't die unless killed). No, the literal translation is 'until dispelled'. There is no other (RAW) Permanent The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic. Which leaves the question of whether the effect remains when the type changes. Your argument is that the text for polymorph is some sort of explanation. However polymorph is a spell with a temporary duration. They mention that you revert to your original form when you die EVEN IF the duration has not expired. This is clearly a case of an exception, as a similar point of emphasis is not made in baleful polymorph or polymorph any object. My argument is that RAW is RAW, right or wrong. I don't say that one must follow RAW all the time, just that when you describe something as RAW it must actually be RAW. . and in the SRD it's very clear that the only criteria given for ending a baleful polymorph effect is dispelling. So could indeed eat that wizard polymorphed into a cow. There's RAW statements that a target of a spell must be eligible. .but NO mention of re-checks when eligibility changes. However, let's look at one more spell for fun. . Transmutation Level: Drd 1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (object) Spell Resistance: Yes (object) Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon.) It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger. These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell. Note there's no mention of 'this effect continues even though the target becomes ineligible at the time of casting' Between that, polymorph, and the targeting description it does indeed indicate that an effect does not continually check for eligibility and then cease if eligibility changes. That's what RAW says. It's very simple really. Now, if you don't want it to work that way as a DM, that's completely cool. That's the point of being a DM, we shape the world. The only reason I went into it at ALL is because the OP mentioned a player wanting to 'be' changed into a dog. And dispelling was an issue and if they were really big on core rules than it was a bit of a stretch to make reincarnation work. Now for me, I'd just have the reincarnation go awry or be more flexible in my campaign. I just tried to help identify a way to use the OP's player's original concept and make his dogginess non-dispellable.
Arganis 10-04-06, 12:12 PM	Actually, I observed that this is the place where there's lots of fudge room Yes, there is fudge room. The GM is forced to address these issues on a case-by-case basis. No, the literal translation is 'until dispelled'. There is no other (RAW) My point here was a pedantic aside that "until dispelled" is not "permanent" in the literal sense. If it can end, it isn't permanent. As for the technical and mechanical interpretation, I agree with you. Your argument is that the text for polymorph is some sort of explanation. However polymorph is a spell with a temporary duration. They mention that you revert to your original form when you die EVEN IF the duration has not expired. This is clearly a case of an exception, as a similar point of emphasis is not made in baleful polymorph or polymorph any object. That's not my argument. Polymorph merely supports my own attempts to fill the gap in the RAW. As with Lycanthropy, one assumes its natural form on death. Another: Vampirism explicitly ends if a destroyed vampire is resurrected. This is another example of an effect not persisting after death/resurrection. None of these incidents directly support my claim, they merely provide me guidelines in drawing my own conclusion. Hell, many of these things fall into the category of campaign-specific anyway. My argument is that RAW is RAW, right or wrong. I don't say that one must follow RAW all the time, just that when you describe something as RAW it must actually be RAW. . and in the SRD it's very clear that the only criteria given for ending a baleful polymorph effect is dispelling. So could indeed eat that wizard polymorphed into a cow. Spells of Permanent duration are not the issue here. The RAW does not address spell-termination on death/destruction/inelligibility of the target. One can easily ignore this hole by assuming that such an omission implies that spells do not terminate on death/destruction/inelligibility. One can assume that spells persist in these circumstances because the RAW does not say they end. Unfortunately, one must be prepared to deal with the inconsistencies that arise, such as burning a Silenced parchment into a Silenced pile of ash. My argument is that the RAW has a hole that should be plugged. Now for me, I'd just have the reincarnation go awry or be more flexible in my campaign. I just tried to help identify a way to use the OP's player's original concept and make his dogginess non-dispellable. Absolutely.
Murr-Quan Lord #2 10-04-06, 12:55 PM	Solutions for talking * Play up the fact that he can't talk for humorous effect. "What is it? What's that you say, boy? You say I can take all the stuff in your backpack? Good idea! :) " If you choose to go this route, consider letting him voice his thoughts OOC. The chars won't be able to hear him, but their players will. * Play up the fact that he can't talk for dramatic effect. Make him scratch words in the sand, a frustratingly slow procedure that only lets him express the simplest concepts. Give him sad puppy eyes because no one can understand his woe. Angst! * Give him an Amulet of Freedom of Speech (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20020125a), an extremely minor magic item which would allow him to talk. Solutions for Gameplay * As has been said, Natural Spell or a feat like it might be extremely helpful. Moreso for a Druid than a Ranger, though. Idea: Would a Druid subject to Baleful Polymorph be able to Wild Shape into other animals? * Maybe he was morphed into a young collie rather than a full-grown dat ... dasch ... wiener dog. In that case he may be able to advance in Hit Dice, becoming a riding dog or a wolf with much better stats. Requires some reinterpretation of the spell, but might be fun. Solutions for Keeping him a Dog * Dispel Magic requires a caster level check. Just say that the guy who cursed him was an extremely powerful mage, perhaps even the BBEG. Good luck beating his magic!
Nikeratos 10-04-06, 01:49 PM	Solutions for talking Would a Druid subject to Baleful Polymorph be able to Wild Shape into other animals? The Baleful Polymorph spell specifies that a creature with the ability to change its form (examples are, I think, werewolves and dragons) can regain its original form as a standard action if it is Baleful-Polymorphed. And the description of Wild Shape allows its being used to turn into yourself. So a Baleful-Polymorphed druid could use Wild Shape to easily regain his original form.