Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quizzit 02-02-08, 10:20 AM	Hey guys, I am sure this has been asked before, but how you you guys handle character death? To be a bit more specific about where I am coming from, we seem to have a DM that sees finishing the dungeon as more important that what characters we are doing this with. Our cleric died, and after a botched attempt to ressurect him, he is now a specter, and we got the sense that our DM was like...well thats that sorry about the crappy roll. So we were trying to figure out the way to fix this, and the DM's answer was pretty much...no you can't, he's gone. And he seemd genuinely supprised that we were trying very hard to find a solution. Our standpoint is, whats the point in building up a character if you have to tear up the sheet each time you get plauged with bad die rolls? By that standard, the law of averages would never allow you to get much past 6th lvl....like ever. Now I understand the risk vs Reward aspect, but is it unrealistic to belive a DM should always have some plan to let a player get his character back?? Does that question make sense??
KruniacZio 02-02-08, 11:10 AM	Hey guys, I am sure this has been asked before, but how you you guys handle character death? To be a bit more specific about where I am coming from, we seem to have a DM that sees finishing the dungeon as more important that what characters we are doing this with. Our cleric died, and after a botched attempt to ressurect him, he is now a specter, and we got the sense that our DM was like...well thats that sorry about the crappy roll. So we were trying to figure out the way to fix this, and the DM's answer was pretty much...no you can't, he's gone. And he seemd genuinely supprised that we were trying very hard to find a solution. Our standpoint is, whats the point in building up a character if you have to tear up the sheet each time you get plauged with bad die rolls? By that standard, the law of averages would never allow you to get much past 6th lvl....like ever. Now I understand the risk vs Reward aspect, but is it unrealistic to belive a DM should always have some plan to let a player get his character back?? Does that question make sense?? Well, one way to handle it is to play a spectre. Play the spectre tormented and enraged by its death, particularly towards the other characters "for allowing it to die and become such a monster" (Evil Alignments are selfish and so forth) Another way to handle it is to look at it this way - you massacre HOW many NPCs of various types throughout your adventures? Call it karma. Your character have just as many dreams, aspirations, and feelings (usually) as the monsters/NPCs you slay, unless you specialize in wiping out oozes and so forth. Contemplate that carefully. You end life. Your characters wipe out creation. Its only a matter of time before "balance" comes around. ...Besides, its a great roleplaying tool. Character death is a powerful and dramatic thing, and should be taken seriously. If you fall into a pit, that isnt very dramatic. If you roleplay clinging for dear life to the side of the pit, looking up at your friends, and saying something like "Take care of my family...", then falling to your death, its much more impacting (no pun). Thats my two cents. I made five characters in one play session - bad rolls.
Malcaor 02-02-08, 11:20 AM	Charactr death is jsut somehtign you have to deal with. I always try to make my deaths as heroic as possible. For isntance in my last game my character had been bitten by a wendigo and could feel himself starting to change into one. So he gave his party instructions on how to resurrect him, cast wings on his animal campanion, flew up 300 ft, and jumped.
M-bark 02-02-08, 11:23 AM	A tip for the part of that "tearing up" issue: use pencil and eraser. They're your friends. Unless you wish to keep all your past character sheets as a kind of trophy or something like that.
KIDS 02-02-08, 11:37 AM	Your questions indeed makes sense, my own answer is that while character death is a part of the game, yes, no one can expect you to shed and wear new characters and etc. without trouble, and DM should check if there is a way for you to be resurrected depending on your level. About the law of averages... indeed, it's one of the plagues of D&D that you will eventually die for some stupid reason, which is not bravely leaping into the fray but rolling a natural 1 vs. a Wail of the Banshee trap or something terribly lame without chance to fight back. This can be avoided with a clever DM who knows what he's doing, but always exists.
Khan2000 02-02-08, 11:52 AM	Death happens. Resurrection is always an option for my players if they can find the person able to do resurrect and the party is able to afford it. An other option is they reunited the body and soul of their companion via the Ghostwalk. There are times when my players just leave the dead character well enough alone.
Quizzit 02-02-08, 12:08 PM	Insteresting remarks. I spoke with our DM a biut more about it and what I got from him is thus: What makes the game fun for him is a dangeous and unpredictable world. This in part is why he does not pull punches. The problem is, what makes the game fun for ALL of his players is thet creation, molding, and building up of our characters. We think there should always be some way to get a fallen character back, our DM does not. In part because, our party needs a healer.....the dead player is a cleric. The DM offered him to roll up another character. which would be a cleirc.... whats the point? he could just erase the name on the char sheet and think of a new one.
Loftower 02-02-08, 12:53 PM	I have a dangerous world, but not an unpredictable one. If the PCs walk into a very dangerous situation, it is very likely that they will not all walk out. However, it is always possible for the PCs to figure out that the situation would be very dangerous and either avoid or mitigate the risk before the go. Because of this, it takes a very improbable series of poor rolls before random chance will kill their characters. Of course, this means that save-or-die situations are very rare in my games. Resurrection is very rare in my adventures. Character death is very likely to be permanent. The players try not to put their characters in a position where they are likely to get killed. This seems simple, but I don’t see it in a lot of games. For instance, if the PCs have taken a beating, used up a bunch of spells, etc., why not withdraw and regroup? Sometimes there are consequences for taking the extra time, but that’s all part of the balance. If the party can’t complete the adventure with a 99% chance of survival, then the adventure is too dangerous and the group should find something else to do. By combining dangerous and predictable, the players work to reduce the risk. Yes, sometimes that reduces the reward. If you care about whether your character dies you should play a character who is careful. If the DM’s world is so “unpredictable” that being careful won’t save your character, you probably have a different playing style than your DM. I am also not of the opinion that every party needs a cleric. My current group doesn’t have one, doesn’t have a single healing potion, and isn’t looking for either. Most of the heroes of legend heal without an adventuring healing character. The adventures should still work.
Moonwolf68 02-02-08, 01:28 PM	I can understand wanting your character not to die. But what exactly does your DM mean by "unpredictable world"? Its hard to be truly unpredictable, because an apple will always fall to the earth if it leaves the tree and the sun always rises in the east. Also, is the real problem the player's attachment to the character or the fact that its a cleric? If you guys are running dungeon crawl after dungeon crawl, then sure there's going to be some attachment, but it sounds like the party is upset because they lost a healer, NOT because they lost a fellow party member. Which is perfectly understandable. If the DM is allowing him to re-roll and he picks a cleric to re-roll, then yeah, technically he could just erase the name and pick a new one, but maybe this time around he'll want to prestige in something, or pick a different god to follow. It sounds like the DM might be a little unreasonable, but then again if you guys are just dungeon crawling in a random dungeon each session, the DM isn't going to be as attached to the characters as the creatures he put time into (and therefore not as willing to allow resurrection-type options). And he could be acting this way for the simple fact you guys are upset about losing a healer, not the fact the player lost his character. Ask yourself, would the party be just as upset if they lost the rogue instead of the cleric? As a DM I personally prefer roleplaying, even in a dungeon crawl. If you guys are roleplaying and go into a dungeon every now and then, then you guys have every right to be upset. Not only did the player get attached to the character, but the party got attached to the character (Definitely makes for more dramatic death scenes too ;) ). Also when roleplaying, DMs will often get attached to your characters (I've got a bad habit of this) and may put them in situations of near-death or total death, but then save the character some how. Sometimes its great as a DM to watch the player get upset and panicky when they know their doom is imminent. The amount of creativity and struggle they put up to keep the character alive makes me decide if I want to allow them to resurrect him or allow his creative attempts to save his life. Maybe discuss that idea with your DM, or maybe he agrees with it and thinks that your party hasn't put up enough of a fight to save your characters. As said above, though, character death is part of character life. Make the best of it and hey, maybe you can even make some jokes about it later on. "Oh remember that time George rolled a 1 and died in a 10ft deep pit trap?? Silly clerics!" I like the idea of having the guy play out his specter and haunting the party. That'd make for some interesting dungeon dialogue and an interesting plot twist to the storyline.
squidyak 02-02-08, 03:15 PM	It's not up to the dm to handle death. He simply determines when death occurs, and it's up to the players to handle it. Either their characters shrug their shoulders and go to town to pick up a new cleric, or they actually have difficulty handling the demise of a friend. Giving in and returning a pc to life once means that you'll have to do it again, and then the sense of danger is gone.
Quizzit 02-02-08, 04:08 PM	it sounds like the party is upset because they lost a healer, NOT because they lost a fellow party member. Ask yourself, would the party be just as upset if they lost the rogue instead of the cleric? We are not upset because the member lost was a cleric. We all have put a lot of work into our characters, and I do not think anyone was aware that the DM was going to take a hardline stance on Character death. It's not up to the dm to handle death. He simply determines when death occurs, and it's up to the players to handle it. Either their characters shrug their shoulders and go to town to pick up a new cleric, or they actually have difficulty handling the demise of a friend. Giving in and returning a pc to life once means that you'll have to do it again, and then the sense of danger is gone. The problem is Squid, that the DM seems unwilling to allow us to find a way to bring back our friend. This is what I have a problem with. He won't allow the player to play him as a spectre, he won't allow the Ghostwalk rules. According to him, the character is gone forever.
wizarddog 02-02-08, 05:19 PM	Now I understand the risk vs Reward aspect, but is it unrealistic to belive a DM should always have some plan to let a player get his character back?? Apparently, when it comes this DM, it is unrealistic. And it would be unrealistic in my own game if such avenues simply did not exist (i.e. I would not put them into the current adventure). This can be frustrating to the player but the DM can run his game anyway he wants. By now of course, your going to need some powerful magic to bring some back after they have been turned to undead. :mad:
Pwydde 02-02-08, 05:45 PM	Never have I been in campaign in which resurrection required a decent die roll. Bad rolls may kill you. Bad rolls shouldn't keep you dead.
Pfisiar 02-02-08, 05:55 PM	The problem here is this: The DM apparently wants to run a hack and slash campaign where characters are as disposable as Kleenex. The players want character development, which is impossible to resolve with what the DM wants. All people in this game need to sit down and plan out what the campaign should be.
Tovec 02-02-08, 06:20 PM	Hey guys, I am sure this has been asked before, but how you you guys handle character death? To be a bit more specific about where I am coming from, we seem to have a DM that sees finishing the dungeon as more important that what characters we are doing this with. Our cleric died, and after a botched attempt to ressurect him, he is now a specter, and we got the sense that our DM was like...well thats that sorry about the crappy roll. So we were trying to figure out the way to fix this, and the DM's answer was pretty much...no you can't, he's gone. And he seemd genuinely supprised that we were trying very hard to find a solution. Our standpoint is, whats the point in building up a character if you have to tear up the sheet each time you get plauged with bad die rolls? By that standard, the law of averages would never allow you to get much past 6th lvl....like ever. Now I understand the risk vs Reward aspect, but is it unrealistic to belive a DM should always have some plan to let a player get his character back?? Does that question make sense?? I understand what you are talking about but it seems to me that you are asking about your DM more then about a PC's character's death. There is a difference between crappy die rolls that get you dead and a DM who seeks to kill his players. On the other hand, character development is what the game is about and when the DM just seeks to end the character's life then the DM isn't doing right by the player. Talk to your DM, most will listen, some won't. A DM may feel attacked especially if they don't realize what they are doing. They will be reluctant to change their mind. If talking to the DM fails then.. Talk to your fellow players, if you all feel the same then approach the DM together. DM's have a hard time fighting a collective will of players and will seriously rethink the events. If the DM still refuses to reform then I would suggest start looking elsewhere for a game. Hope this helps.
Quizzit 02-02-08, 07:24 PM	The problem here is this: The DM apparently wants to run a hack and slash campaign where characters are as disposable as Kleenex. The players want character development, which is impossible to resolve with what the DM wants. All people in this game need to sit down and plan out what the campaign should be. I think you are very close in your assesment Pfisiar, although I do not think our DM is trying to be malicous. I don't sense that he is "trying" to kill us. More likely, he is either unable to see, or unwilling to conceede that our characters are more to us than just a means to play the game. Lawful Neutral to a "T" if you will. He made the comment, "Thats just the roll of the dice". Talk to your DM, most will listen, some won't. A DM may feel attacked especially if they don't realize what they are doing. They will be reluctant to change their mind. If talking to the DM fails then.. Talk to your fellow players, if you all feel the same then approach the DM together. DM's have a hard time fighting a collective will of players and will seriously rethink the events. If the DM still refuses to reform then I would suggest start looking elsewhere for a game. Yup thats about right. The plan all along was I was going to take over DMing after this campaign. Perhapps that will just happen a lot sooner...
Pfisiar 02-02-08, 07:26 PM	I think you are very close in your assesment Pfisiar, although I do not think our DM is trying to be malicous. I don't sense that he is "trying" to kill us. More likely, he is either unable to see, or unwilling to conceede that our characters are more to us than just a means to play the game. Lawful Neutral to a "T" if you will. He made the comment, "Thats just the roll of the dice". Yup thats about right. The plan all along was I was going to take over DMing after this campaign. Perhapps that will just happen a lot sooner... To clear things up: I didn't mean that in a bad way. I just meant to say that the DMs and the Players aren't on the same page on what the purpose of the campaign is.
nowiwantmydmg 02-03-08, 12:24 AM	I'm a DM who loves heavy roleplay orientated games and loves it when players get attached to their characters, but when a character dies in my games, I'm sorry, but that's it, break out the character sheets and get to work on your next one. The dead character may get some sort of in game memorial or special mention in honor of his/her sacrifice, but dead is dead. My objection would be with the inconsistency allowing a raise, but having it fail is B.S., pick one or the other.(How did it fail BTW, I might have ruled failure if it was a raise dead spell without the diamond) As a player: being turned undead without being killed by undead or a necromancer would really p*ss me off, especially if I was rather attached to the character. Now, whining about it is a poor way to go about it, point out his inconsistency, ask for an explanation why in a polite, respectful tone and see if a cooperative solution can be found. (Not to be an ass, but the way you've put it forward sounds a bit like whining) Good Luck
pigknight 02-03-08, 12:39 AM	In my campain there's revify and special places where you can use rez spells, and there's also apocolypse-type villians with that unholier than Cthulhu sword that destroys your soul.
sorites 02-03-08, 01:45 AM	We treat death fairly lightly and resurrections are available without a hassle. That said, the party gets fed up with paying for rezzes. PC death is uncommon for us. In your case, it sounds like the DM is playing things by the book. If you could cast true ressurection, maybe he'd let you bring your friend back (after killing his spectre form). Technically, I don't think you could use just a resurrection, since that spell requires a small piece of the body. I think whoever said the players and the DM are not on the same page is right. At least, about what options are available when a PC dies. Since the cleric is the dead one, he can't cast any rez spells himself, but maybe the rogue could UMD a scroll. The real kicker about this situation is that he got turned into a spectre, which makes him very hard to bring back. If your DM sticks to his guns and doesn't bend the rules, look at it like this: you have a new opportunity for roleplay with a new character. While you mourn the death of the cleric, there are always many more interesting and dangerous characters waiting in the wings.
squidyak 02-03-08, 01:19 PM	The problem is Squid, that the DM seems unwilling to allow us to find a way to bring back our friend. This is what I have a problem with. He won't allow the player to play him as a spectre, he won't allow the Ghostwalk rules. According to him, the character is gone forever. That's his gaming style, but that doesn't make him a bad DM. You seem to be making the point that he's supposed to make it so the character comes back. Only if that's the way his world works. In my campaigns there wouldn't even be a resurrection attempt. Death is permanent. Adventuring is a dangerous job. Characters die sometimes. If your playing style and his DM'ing style don't match up, maybe you should get an early jump on the DM switch. Hopefully he'll like your style more than you like his.
Quizzit 02-03-08, 04:40 PM	That's his gaming style, but that doesn't make him a bad DM. You seem to be making the point that he's supposed to make it so the character comes back. Only if that's the way his world works. In my campaigns there wouldn't even be a resurrection attempt. Death is permanent. Adventuring is a dangerous job. Characters die sometimes. If your playing style and his DM'ing style don't match up, maybe you should get an early jump on the DM switch. Hopefully he'll like your style more than you like his. I'll tell you, I am suprised at the number of comments that in a sense agree with our current DM. Death is permanent. He's not a bad DM to be sure. There are a few quirks of his that I disagree with. For instance, he writes down the current HP total of the monsters on the game board for all to see. However, thats not game altering, and easy to overlook. Risk makes Reward more.....well rewarding. We all preferr lessening the reward a bit in favor of long term character development. Our DM does not.
KyoMamoru 02-03-08, 04:54 PM	On my table, we treat death as a necessity. Without it, the game would have no challenge, and would become boring. Though the fun of D&D is watching the character you made grow up through levels, when you would ever experience that again if the character didn't stay dead? There are ways to come back, but it is often difficult to -get- to where you need to be to find items required to bring a character back.
sorites 02-03-08, 05:29 PM	I've used the hand of god to prevent a PC from dying -- literally! The encounter was way too tough and I hadn't realized how overpowering it would be. So when the paladin died, I made it out like his god intervened to prevent his untimely death. Some players and DMs are comfortable with that kind of narrative solution, but many are not. Some fudging here and there might be OK, but for the most part, people expect you to follow the rules of the game -- rules that explain how death and resurrection works. Other games, like Vampire, put the characters and the story above the rules. The rules themselves say, "If the rules get in the way, don't use them" In a game like that, your character might never die unless both you and the GM decide it's right for the story. I'll tell you, I am suprised at the number of comments that in a sense agree with our current DM. Death is permanent. Is it really that your DM treats all death as permanent? Or is it that this particular case is special? The cleric wasn't just killed; he spawned as a spectre after his death. In D&D, it takes very powerful magic (true resurrection, for example) to bring back someone who has become undead. Ask your DM what the party's options would be if the cleric was killed in a 'normal' way.
Alter_Boy 02-03-08, 05:46 PM	Yup thats about right. The plan all along was I was going to take over DMing after this campaign. Perhapps that will just happen a lot sooner... When you do, let everyone understand when and how they can come back to life. Make sure there is an in-game reason, so it's beleivable. Don't save one PC in one encounter, and not save another in another encounter. You have to be consistent. For fun games, I'll place a ressurection/reincarnation 'deus ex machina' for the PCs to use. However, for on-going games, I find it cheapens challenges, changes approaches to combat ("Strap me full of explosives and toss me into the well!"), and makes the deus ex machina the centre of the story.
Daeva 02-05-08, 12:12 AM	/sigh. wiht our current GMs (husband and wife two separate games) death is so common that no one is the race they started with by level 5 (because of reincarnation) and i keep a folder of characters and keep them updated because id rather not have to waste time at a session making a new one. i used to love character development but thats an impossibility with the current group.
Dunsel 02-05-08, 01:13 PM	I'll tell you, I am suprised at the number of comments that in a sense agree with our current DM. Death is permanent. Why would you be surprised? This is the DM board. Any DM worth his salt knows death is usually permanent. There are ways to counter it but they should not be readily available, and they also tend to be pricey. Maybe your DM isn't so wrong after all. In 1st edition, there was a "resurrection" percentage (based on constitution) that was rolled after the resurrection was attempted. If the roll was not successful, that PC could not be resurrected. Only a wish would bring back the PC after failing that roll. Raise dead had a "shock survival" check as well as polymorph and petrification. Wow, I can't believe I still remember this stuff! Sometimes, the roll was missed. The player had to roll up a new character. Is your DM using this rule or did the character die b/c the player missed a roll? I understand you want the DM fiat for death? You want the DM to give you a way out every time you die? Nonsense! Most DMs will give an option to restore ability scores, stone to flesh, even give out healing, but just nerfing death nerfs the whole game. Loosing the cleric is very bad. The entire party suffers when the cleric goes down. Perhaps next time, the player will do a better job of staying out of the fray and/or buff his saving throws. You go ahead and DM, and let us know what it is like when your players realize their PCs can't die. Even if they die, they know it isn't permanent. Every encounter is perfectly balanced to avoid death. All death inducing spells are banned. Saving throws where death is a possibility are banned. Traps have rubber spikes to avoid injury. Poisons are banned. Please let us know. I am dying to learn how a "softer, gentler" world turns out.
Dunsel 02-05-08, 01:26 PM	/sigh. wiht our current GMs (husband and wife two separate games) death is so common that no one is the race they started with by level 5 (because of reincarnation) and i keep a folder of characters and keep them updated because id rather not have to waste time at a session making a new one. i used to love character development but thats an impossibility with the current group. Unless your DM is a sadist, there are legitimate reasons for character death. My first DM was a sadist so I know one when I see one. Additional reasons for character death: 1) Encounters are too difficult for the player to defeat. 2) Encounters are too difficult for the PCs to defeat. Yes, there is a difference. 3) The players have no grasp of tactics. 4) Players do not have a grasp of the combat rules. 5) Players roll badly. 6) DM does not cut the players slack and rolls his attacks in front of them. 7) Players are noobs. 8) Players do not work together. 9) All of the above. :eek: I hope your D&D experience gets better.:)
Shiftkitty 02-05-08, 03:37 PM	My players don't mind their PCs dying if it's suitably spectacular. V'nneth got his brains sucked out by a mindflayer, but managed to hack and slash all the way to the end (mostly thanks to muscle spasms). Vassago had a T-Rex fall on him as he was charging it to slash its belly open. Duran got wedged between a doorjamb and a flaming sphere. JJ D'Aulnay was an artiste and refused to be used for vulgar combat. This arrogant rogue failed to notice the critter that had gotten past the party and killed him in one chomp. These guys went out in character and stayed dead. After each game, if the party hadn't resurrected them, I'd ask the players if they wanted a chance to get 'em back. These four were left in their graves, but others have been the subject of adventures as their erstwhile companions set about recovering their friends. If your PC died a mundane death, or is not otherwise magically (or divinely) prevented from being resurrected, he should be allowed the chance.
Turin 02-05-08, 07:49 PM	Like many problems on the boards, this issue has a lot to do with player expectations vs DM expectations. One of the solutions I've developed to this over the years is to give everyone a list of "Campaign Assumptions" at the beginning of the game. This way, everyone has a chance to see what they're getting into and (importantly) has a chance to object. For example, I'm currently running a campaign for "expert" players, all of whom I've DM'd for at various points for at least a couple years at a time. Here's the section of the "Campaign Assumptions" regarding character death from that game: Assumption: "The DM Wouldn’t Let Us Die!" You wish. The world is a nasty place, and this campaign has been designed around a fairly high-level of difficulty. Most encounters will be relatively tailored to your level of experience, but others will not be. Of course, some of these more difficult encounters will be meant for you to defeat in a non-combat manner. If your fourth-level party comes up against an iron golem and you know that your party must get past it, you can be assured that this is one of those kinds of encounters. Usually you will have a pretty good idea when you’re about to hit an encounter that’s beyond your means. If you hear that in “those hills over there” is a lair of a few dozen ogres, you may want to wait to try to tackle this lair until you’ve gained a little more experience. Likewise, attacking someone like one of the Lords of Dust will get you killed. Player characters have fate on their side, but don’t expect fate to step in and save you if you’re doing something really stupid. This gives the players an opportunity to understand what they're getting into at the start. I'd suggest that you talk to your DM so that everyone at the table understands and agrees to what the assumptions about character death will be. Also, I suggest that in the future you post player-related concerns in the What's a Player to Do forum. ;)
Phae 02-05-08, 07:58 PM	If a character dies, I usually treat it as another passing of life, and allow my players to buy funeral provisions, cremate them, and so forth. After we finish the nice, sweet, I-love-you-but-you're-dead talk, I head to the bathroom and laugh until I can't breathe.
Draco_Whitewind 02-07-08, 11:00 PM	have a quick Question: did he tell you this rule BEFOREHAND? I can get pretty aggressive when it comes down to DMs not explaining the terms in advance, right down to every little change, even about abilities we can't take for a while, or ever. Honestly, thats just really poor DMing and rules on his part, and the party needs to talk to him and give him the "no game" ultimatum.
Quizzit 02-08-08, 12:33 AM	have a quick Question: did he tell you this rule BEFOREHAND? No, he did not. That is why we were like...whoa.... Also, I suggest that in the future you post player-related concerns in the What's a Player to Do forum. Posted here because I wanted the DM's take on this topic. And I love it that so many have posted. The different answers are all quite interesting. I assumed players might post here as well, perhapps I should ask over there to eh? Every encounter is perfectly balanced to avoid death. All death inducing spells are banned. Saving throws where death is a possibility are banned. Traps have rubber spikes to avoid injury. Poisons are banned. Please let us know. I am dying to learn how a "softer, gentler" world turns out. Ouch Dunsel. :) I think you perhapps misunderstand. The main point I am making here here is the viewpoint on characters. How do they fit into your game? Does the game revolve around the Characters? or Does it revolve around the Campaign? If it is the latter, then the Characters are merely a means to play out said campain, and if one dies you roll up a new one and continue along with the story. If it is the former, well then a bit more thought needs to go into how the campaign works. The Campaign becomes the medium to tell the story about the Characters. Think of how the story would go if Drizzt was killed halfway through the first book? Or if Tanis and friends well all killed the frist time they ran into the Draconians? So this is a game right? We are supposed to have fun playing it right? If Character devolpment is what makes the game fun for you, then permanent death is definatley NOT fun. Likewise, if characters are expendable tools used to move through the story, then character death is less of an issue, and IS fun (as long as it is heroic). I never said our DM was wrong for playing the way he does, it is just different. Since all of his players are in the "Charcater Development is Fun" camp, it is he that needs to change. Also, it's not that death won't happen, it's just that Characters won't be taken permanently off-line. You Die, you get rezzed at the temple in town No Temple? Use Ghostwalk to play out till you do get a temple. TPK? You wake up in a cell with no stuff. TPK? You wake up as various forms of Undead a la Libris Mortis Hard Fought Fights Several Save or Die Spells Painful Poisons Super Sharp Spikes Kinder and Gentler? Not so much.... Perhapps the gods are just more forgiving.
mtbOgre 02-08-08, 01:54 AM	No, he did not. That is why we were like...whoa.... He probably figured it was pretty obvious that death has a certain finality to it and that the reverse is unusual. Ouch Dunsel. :) I think you perhapps misunderstand. The main point I am making here here is the viewpoint on characters. How do they fit into your game? Player death is part of the game. If you take away the risk of death then you remove any suspense from the game. There is a place for raising the dead in all the various methods, but when players take it for granted your characters have no survival instinct. If you like your character, take precautions and keep him alive. the law of averages would never allow you to get much past 6th lvl....like ever. I've never had this problem with my group... like ever. Some characters do die, most do just fine. Knowing that death is out there makes them a little more cautious I guess. Does the game revolve around the Characters? The game revolves around the characters but sometimes a character leaves the stage and new ones come along. If it is the former, well then a bit more thought needs to go into how the campaign works. The Campaign becomes the medium to tell the story about the Characters. Think of how the story would go if Drizzt was killed halfway through the first book? I've never read the Drizzt books but heroes in high fantasy don't generally die and get resurrected. They run and hide a lot and try not to do stupid things that get them killed. And by the way if you missed it, in Serenity Wash and Book both die and that was an absolutely awesome movie. Boromir dies. Gandolf was the only one of those who got raised from the dead and he was at least 20th level. Have you seen Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? Everyone dies in that movie. Star Wars? Hate to break it to you but Obi Wan dies, Han got a free pass but Yoda, Windu, and even Vader dies. Hero? All the main characters die. The Matrix, Tank dies... Also, it's not that death won't happen, it's just that Characters won't be taken permanently off-line. So what you are saying is that death is fine as long as it's not permanent... hate to tell you but death is permanent by default. Sounds like someone has been playing too many video games. When you roll up your next character when you focus on character development how about you develop a healthy paranoia and some survival instincts into him?
CCS 02-08-08, 03:08 AM	Star Wars? Hate to break it to you but Obi Wan dies, Han got a free pass but Yoda, Windu, and even Vader dies. I'd argue Windus' "on screen" death. At least based just on what we saw in the movie - comics/novels/games etc might expand on or confirm it(I don't know), but that's not what we actually see happening on film.... All we see is Mace, burnt & maimed, plunging out that window. Presumably to his death. But we all know it's perfectly feasable for a jedi to go free-falling through Courascant(sp?) traffic & survive thanks to Episode II. And experienced jedi can take a beating as well. So what're Mace's odds?
CCS 02-08-08, 04:00 AM	Hmm. Seems like you've got one actual problem at the root of this: different play-styles/expectations. The only way to solve that is to sit down & discuss things like this before you start to play. Make sure everybody knows what to expect. Personally I agree with you that character/story development is most important. I'm not a fan of completely DM supplied plot (people running those types of games should just go write a novel IMO). Thus my games are largely character driven. Granted, I'll supply some hooks & toss in some stuff I like (I'm playing too you know!), but really I just sit back & pretty much respond to what the players choose to do. I've DM'd some very interesting games this way.... BUT; I think you're completely wrong to expect a DM to always provide a means to avoid/cheat/erase death (& other nasty side effects of adventuring). My view is that death is pretty perminent unless you, the players, have access to the required magics. So, when your characters die miles & miles away from help, you don't have the right spell components, the local town/etc doesn't have a high enough caster, you meet some terrible fate (such as being turned into a spectre).... Well, then you're prety much SOL. Maybe you can reverse the situation if you're really determined to. You know, recover the body, go on a quest, get access to a wish or res magic, whatever. And maybe it'll work, maybe it won't.... Either way it's the basis for yet another adventure. And that's an example of me playing off of you. But I never simply make sure to always have an out handy for you. And I don't care if you die in an epic fight, get ganked by a random encounter, or fall victem to your own fool actions. Since my games are player driven that's just part of the story for those particular characters.
mtbOgre 02-08-08, 11:16 AM	I'd argue Windus' "on screen" death. At least based just on what we saw in the movie - comics/novels/games etc might expand on or confirm it(I don't know), but that's not what we actually see happening on film.... All we see is Mace, burnt & maimed, plunging out that window. Presumably to his death. But we all know it's perfectly feasable for a jedi to go free-falling through Courascant(sp?) traffic & survive thanks to Episode II. And experienced jedi can take a beating as well. So what're Mace's odds? Ugh... I shouldn't have brought a reference up from those movies. He was just one of the few characters I liked in those movies. To the OP: Maybe I was a little cranky but character death is part of what makes the game exciting. It builds tension and suspense. As an example, Bourne Supremacy the girlfriend gets killed. Really, really sucked. But in Bourne Ultimatum when they were running from Desch it really ratcheted up the suspense. Will she live? Another example... and this one is brutal. Mad Max. Holy Cow. Now if character death is too common then it doesn't build suspense, just frustration. Some people were talking about characters dying every week and that's not really RPing, how can you develop a character that lasts 2 hours.
Dunsel 02-08-08, 11:30 AM	Ouch Dunsel. :) I think you perhapps misunderstand. The main point I am making here here is the viewpoint on characters. How do they fit into your game? Does the game revolve around the Characters? or Does it revolve around the Campaign? If it is the latter, then the Characters are merely a means to play out said campain, and if one dies you roll up a new one and continue along with the story. If it is the former, well then a bit more thought needs to go into how the campaign works. The Campaign becomes the medium to tell the story about the Characters. Think of how the story would go if Drizzt was killed halfway through the first book? Or if Tanis and friends well all killed the frist time they ran into the Draconians? So this is a game right? We are supposed to have fun playing it right? If Character devolpment is what makes the game fun for you, then permanent death is definatley NOT fun. Likewise, if characters are expendable tools used to move through the story, then character death is less of an issue, and IS fun (as long as it is heroic). I never said our DM was wrong for playing the way he does, it is just different. Since all of his players are in the "Charcater Development is Fun" camp, it is he that needs to change. Also, it's not that death won't happen, it's just that Characters won't be taken permanently off-line. You Die, you get rezzed at the temple in town No Temple? Use Ghostwalk to play out till you do get a temple. TPK? You wake up in a cell with no stuff. TPK? You wake up as various forms of Undead a la Libris Mortis Hard Fought Fights Several Save or Die Spells Painful Poisons Super Sharp Spikes Kinder and Gentler? Not so much.... Perhapps the gods are just more forgiving. Sorry if sounded harsh, but I have seen far too many threads on this board about making the game friendlier and it sickens me. I got your point. You don't want PCs to die and you are upset with your DM for taking an opposing point of view. Comparing fantasy novels to an actual campaign is like comparing a painting to live TV show. The painting is static, there is no interaction. Nothing can be changed. The author had plenty of time to determine the plot and his characters interaction with it. He knows how the book will end. To use your analogy, what if Drizzt died in the first book? Then the book wouldn't be about Drizzt. The question is moot. You are comparing apples to kittens. One moves and interacts with the world and one doesn't. Why would a TPK result in "You wake up in a cell with no stuff"? Waking up as an updead might not be the direction a lot of players would want for their characters. If my wizard died, and I came back as an updead, I would call that a DM railroad! My game is more character driven than campaign driven but that does not wash over your belief that the DM should provide and 'out' for death. I put a lot of thought into my campaigns. Just because I don't nerf death does not mean I don't. I never and I mean never make one PC more important than another. You just never know what will happen. The main plots I create are not central to one or even two characters. Minor plots will include certain pcs but only for a short time. I give my players full latitude in my world. Sometimes they do as I expect, most times they don't. I have been DMing since the summer 1982. I was 18. Since that time, many PCs have died, some unexpectedly, some you could see it coming. Some have died epically and others have died while on guard duty. My players use the character tree concept from Dark Sun (the world I use). If they die, they have another character mostly created to step in. Some people refer to Dark Sun as a "character grinder" when, in reality, it is not much more dangerous than Forgotten Realms. There were zero deaths for 8 months and then, suddenly, 6 in 3 game sessions! I have introduced hero points into my world to help cut down on character death b/c I know what it is like to loose one; however, once they die it is completely up to the players to find a way to bring them back. If they inform me, "Jake is dead and we want to raise him." I will alter the campaign to help them accomplish that goal. Am I to give them more? Me: Jake is dead again? I am so sorry, here have a rod of resurrection. Free diamond powder? Perhaps a wandering cleric of the appropriate level? How would you guys like me to solve this for you? The bottom line is characters die, with or without a great back story, they die. If you do not wish to play in a campaign where death likely final, go find another. If you think you can do a better job, DM your own group. But you should not be surprised other DMs agree with yours. I do not DM fiat death.
Dunsel 02-08-08, 11:31 AM	"Now if character death is too common then it doesn't build suspense, just frustration. Some people were talking about characters dying every week and that's not really RPing, how can you develop a character that lasts 2 hours." Agreed.
mtbOgre 02-08-08, 01:15 PM	Ho hum.
Pwydde 02-08-08, 02:02 PM	We are addressing the wrong questions. In his original post, Quizzitt said that the there was a botched effort to resurect the character. That means that the PCs had some means to recover a character. Apparently, Quizzitt and his companions were not asking for an easy out. They already had one. Access to resurection is the archetypal get-out-of-jail-free card. That's why DMs allow (very rarely) PCs to come across them. Why give the PCs that access then make it fail? What's the point? So Quizzitt's DM allowed the PCs a way to attempt a resurection, then had it fail. Then, the DM apparently refused to consider other possible ways to recover the deceased, even when the other possiblities were far from get-out-of-jail-free. Had I been his DM, I would have either made the resurection work, or I would send the PCs on a difficult side quest to recover their comrade. On the side quest, I would make it clear that they'd used their scroll or whatever, and that my style won't provide any way to recover the next deceased. Now they're on notice and on guard.
mtbOgre 02-08-08, 02:17 PM	We are addressing the wrong questions. In his original post, Quizzitt said that the there was a botched effort to resurect the character. That means that the PCs had some means to recover a character. Apparently, Quizzitt and his companions were not asking for an easy out. They already had one. Access to resurection is the archetypal get-out-of-jail-free card. That's why DMs allow (very rarely) PCs to come across them. Why give the PCs that access then make it fail? What's the point? Well absent any details on how and why the resurrection failed it's kind of hard to discuss that isn't it? I can think of a few legitimate reasons it could fail: lack of funds, purchasing a raise dead scroll and failing to pass a spellcraft check to cast it, failing a diplomacy check to convince a cleric to cast the spell, took too long to get the body to a cleric, can't recover the body, failing to perform a task for the cleric who they ask to raise the character.... More important, the Quizzit made his POV on the whole issue more than clear in a later post: Also, it's not that death won't happen, it's just that Characters won't be taken permanently off-line. You Die, you get rezzed at the temple in town No Temple? Use Ghostwalk to play out till you do get a temple. TPK? You wake up in a cell with no stuff. TPK? You wake up as various forms of Undead a la Libris Mortis So Quizzitt's DM allowed the PCs a way to attempt a resurection, then had it fail. Then, the DM apparently refused to consider other possible ways to recover the deceased, even when the other possiblities were far from get-out-of-jail-free. Had I been his DM, I would have either made the resurection work, or I would send the PCs on a difficult side quest to recover their comrade. On the side quest, I would make it clear that they'd used their scroll or whatever, and that my style won't provide any way to recover the next deceased. Now they're on notice and on guard. It's not entirely clear to me that the DM didn't give the group a fair chance to raise the character.
Quizzit 02-08-08, 04:00 PM	You are correct mtbOgre, I am more interested on the overall viewpoint from everyone than answers to my specific event. However, as Pwydde pointed out, we were given the means to recover our guy, only to have it fail. Oh, and any character that dies in a movie/book is obvously an NPC. Who cares about them. ;) Serenity rocks btw..Bowncoats Forever!! To use your analogy, what if Drizzt died in the first book? Then the book wouldn't be about Drizzt. The question is moot. No no, thats EXACTLY the point!! The book is supposed to be about Drizzit, not the next character Salvatore "rolled up". Me: Jake is dead again? I am so sorry, here have a rod of resurrection. Free diamond powder? Perhaps a wandering cleric of the appropriate level? How would you guys like me to solve this for you? I think you may belive my standpoint is a but further than is actually is. To be specific, after the botched rezz attempt the following conversation is basically what took place: PCs: Ok, lets head south to the center of power here and look for a solution. DM: No, he's gone. PC's: What if we.... DM: No, he's gone. PC's: What about... DM: No, he's gone. I am not looking for a world where all monsters only do Non-Leathal damage, just one where I get to play my character whom I put time and thought into. If they die, they have another character mostly created to step in. See, this sounds boring to me. This (to me) reduces the importance of any character down to that of a magazine clip. When it's empty, throw it away and reload with a new one. Oh and please realize, I have never said my DM was wrong, or a bad DM. It's just a differnt point of view. When you roll up your next character when you focus on character development how about you develop a healthy paranoia and some survival instincts into him? That's called staying at home and tending the farm like a good boy instead of taking your grandfather's sword out into the world of adventure and getting yourself killed. Hell, look at Roy Greenhilt!!! /snicker Besides, how the hell were we supposed to know a 5th lvl Enemy cleric was going to sucessfully cast Flamestrike off of a scroll on our party that was standing in a defensive position?!?! Point being, it does not matter how careful you are, you are eventually going to roll a 1 against the DM's 20.
mtbOgre 02-08-08, 04:44 PM	Oh, and any character that dies in a movie/book is obvously an NPC. Who cares about them. ;) Serenity rocks btw..Bowncoats Forever!! So Obi-wan and Wash were both NPCs? Pulease. No no, thats EXACTLY the point!! The book is supposed to be about Drizzit, not the next character Salvatore "rolled up". How do you know that until the book is over? Maybe the book your player in is a book about one of the other PCs? I think you may belive my standpoint is a but further than is actually is. To be specific, after the botched rezz attempt the following conversation is basically what took place: This isn't a botched attempt, this is simply not a chance. I am not looking for a world where all monsters only do Non-Leathal damage, just one where I get to play my character whom I put time and thought into. You are essentially asking for a world where your character runs around with a sword killing things dead while everyone else has nerf bats. If the monsters have no way of ever killing you then all damage is non-lethal. See, this sounds boring to me. This (to me) reduces the importance of any character down to that of a magazine clip. When it's empty, throw it away and reload with a new one. Well I talked to the player of a character I killed the other day and she disagrees. In any case, I don't know anyone here who is suggesting the characters are disposable. Character death should be a rare but entirely possible event. Come back and complain when your DM has killed you a couple more times or TPKed your group and I might have more sympathy. Besides, how the hell were we supposed to know a 5th lvl Enemy cleric was going to sucessfully cast Flamestrike off of a scroll on our party that was standing in a defensive position?!?! Sometimes the dice roll wrong and your character dies... that's why we have dice, to introduce uncertainty in the game. In the current rev low level characters are particularly vulnerable to the vagaries of dice. Point being, it does not matter how careful you are, you are eventually going to roll a 1 against the DM's 20. Well 5 out of 7 players in my group have made it from 1st through 6th without dying. One of the players cried when her character died but she got over it and the next week she was happy about her new character. The other one got lucky and was raised, mostly because the party had the resources by then but she would have accepted it. It's not that they don't really like their characters, it's just that they understand it's part of the game. Now maybe they secretly don't have fun playing but neither one has missed a session...
Loftower 02-08-08, 05:50 PM	One of my favorite characters died at second level. He had a 2% chance of being resurrected, failed, and I made up a new character. Since I didn’t like this ending, I wrote my own OOG (180,000 words or so). Maybe I’ll polish enough to publish someday. There is a lot of talk (justifiably) about DMs using a railroad when they should just write a novel. If it’s all about your character, it’s the players writing the novel – no better than a railroad. If your character can break the DM’s plans, then the DMs plans can also break your character. My players put their PCs in a very bad situation not too long ago. It was clear to everyone that they were headed for a TPK. I offered to give them a “hand-waiving” excuse to escape. They chose death for exactly the reasons that have been posted here: without the threat of a permanent end, there is no real challenge and therefore no real feeling of heroic accomplishment. Some of those characters had been continuously in play for five years IRL. Tears were shed. I had multiple adventures written for those PCs which I will probably never use now. I may never run another game in that homebrew world again. That’s just too bad. BTW: if the lvl 5 cleric wasn’t afraid of your party in their defensive position, you should have realized he had something up his sleeve. Have you never coerced an enemy into the area of your best spell? At my table (and I know some people will disagree) I would say that you were meta-game to even think this way: how would the PCs know what level he is (or what a level is)? How would the PCs know what he can cast? How would the PCs know what type of devices or assistance that he might have?
Draco_Whitewind 02-08-08, 09:20 PM	So Obi-wan and Wash were both NPCs? Pulease. How do you know that until the book is over? Maybe the book your player in is a book about one of the other PCs? This isn't a botched attempt, this is simply not a chance. Y. mtb, do you know what his complaint is about? it is about the fact that the DM is playing "My story, not yours" and "Sorry, this is my version of D&D". This is EXACTLY what deserves Hammer-gun artillery strikes. The Cleric of the party was raised as a specter. Go ahead. Find me something in 3.0 or 3.5 D&D that supports that. Oh wait, it doesn't exist. They were not informed of this houserule. The fact that they can't go, butcher the specter, and then go and pay for a True Resurrection is utter garbage. D&D supports that by its very rules. In 3.0, I believe there were a total of THREE things that could permanently kill a character. One was a Demilich, another a lavawight, and the last a Sphere of anihilation. What is happening to them, the very situation is Garbage Dming, pure and simple.
mtbOgre 02-09-08, 12:49 AM	mtb, do you know what his complaint is about? it is about the fact that the DM is playing "My story, not yours" and "Sorry, this is my version of D&D". This is EXACTLY what deserves Hammer-gun artillery strikes. The Cleric of the party was raised as a specter. Go ahead. Find me something in 3.0 or 3.5 D&D that supports that. Oh wait, it doesn't exist. They were not informed of this houserule. The fact that they can't go, butcher the specter, and then go and pay for a True Resurrection is utter garbage. D&D supports that by its very rules. In 3.0, I believe there were a total of THREE things that could permanently kill a character. One was a Demilich, another a lavawight, and the last a Sphere of anihilation. What is happening to them, the very situation is Garbage Dming, pure and simple. ? I'm not sure what you are talking about. I was responding directly to a post by the OP where he said he did not believe characters should EVER die. It's quite a lengthly post and not to hard to find. It's the one that starts with "You are correct mtbOgre, I am more interested on the overall viewpoint from everyone than answers to my specific event." As for you comments about his friends going out and paying for true resurrection and being done with it... Did you notice his character was killed by a 5th level cleric? Most likely his party is 3rd-4th level. If his party liquidated everything the party owned for full face value they would likely not be able to afford true rez. In Eberron even if they could afford it they wouldn't have been able to find someone to cast it. Raise dead costs more than what the players total wealth should have been. When my characters were 4th level they would have had a heck of a time raising 1500GP for reincarnation (The lowest cost bring back to life remedy). I'm running a very popular WotC module right now (Red Hand of Doom). The characters are off in the sticks, if one of them dies they have to travel 3 days to the closest cleric that can cast raise dead. If they were to do that they are almost guaranteed to be so far behind they basically flush the entire mission down the toilet. So what happens? The character dies, the player rolls up a new character which gets introduces shortly after or the player takes over an NPC. Death Happens.
Draco_Whitewind 02-09-08, 01:37 AM	Sorry, but I do not see his attitude of characters never being allowed to die anywhere in his origional post, or any subsequent post to the claim that he said characters shouldn't die. Death, is a part of D&D. Many of my characters inflict that Status quite well. What he is mad at, is that the Cleric of the party was killed, and apparantly it seems there is no way to get him back. a simple raise dead seems like it would have fixed the first problem initially, in fact that is likely what he did. I toss around "true res" just as a general term, not an actual course of action possible for them. No offense, but if revive spells are changed like that, Save or dies should drop them to -1. The very fact that there is so much "Save or die" and why you almost never see soul trapping/rev prevention is because thats the balance. Death of a character can be treated like the drop of a hat if you have a 9/13th/17th level cleric in the party with a few Diamonds in possession. (*And thats not necessarily a bad thing*) From what I can tell, the game seemed very player driven, and then suddenly a bizzare, BAD rule was sprung on them that cheated them out of a raise dead. No amount of jerkfacing or whiny atttitude that may be claimed against him on his part can deny that problem.
mtbOgre 02-09-08, 02:57 AM	Sorry, but I do not see his attitude of characters never being allowed to die anywhere in his origional post, or any subsequent post to the claim that he said characters shouldn't die. So you missed where he said: Also, it's not that death won't happen, it's just that Characters won't be taken permanently off-line. You Die, you get rezzed at the temple in town No Temple? Use Ghostwalk to play out till you do get a temple. TPK? You wake up in a cell with no stuff. TPK? You wake up as various forms of Undead a la Libris Mortis Death, is a part of D&D. Many of my characters inflict that Status quite well. What he is mad at, is that the Cleric of the party was killed, and apparantly it seems there is no way to get him back. a simple raise dead seems like it would have fixed the first problem initially, in fact that is likely what he did. What I was trying to point out is that in many circumstances resurrecting a dead character isn't an option, in particular with low level parties which his appears to be. You talk about a 'simple raise dead spell' but that is most likely beyond the means of a party this level. If a party is on a quest and someone dies do they drop everything they are doing and walk 3 days to a city big enough to raise their friend abandoning their mission? What if other lives are at stake? Does that make sense?
Dan Hemmens 02-09-08, 07:17 AM	Hey guys, I am sure this has been asked before, but how you you guys handle character death? I used to fudge mercilessly, now I play games where it's a mechanical impossibility. I really, really dislike character death. PCs are the whole reason I *play* RPGs, letting them just die for no good reason sits totally wrong with me.
Dan Hemmens 02-09-08, 07:33 AM	So Obi-wan and Wash were both NPCs? Pulease. Yes, they totally were. Obi-Wan was a textbook Primary Quest Giver, he had NPC written all over him. Wash was the guy that the DM had to make up because nobody wanted to play the pilot. The PCs in Star Wars are clearly Luke, Leia and Han (and even Leia is arguable). The PCs in Serenity are Mal, Zoe, and River.
kelvinaw273 02-09-08, 08:58 AM	The way I look at it, death is most likely (and most likely to be permanent) at low level, because of scarce hit points and scarce resources. This is usually before players get really attached to their characters, and most DMs use kid gloves at these levels anyway. Two examples form our current game illustrates how it can be worked: 1) Near TPK: through cruddy rolls, bad luck and tough opposition, we lose an encounter. All the PCs use action points to stabilize, but we are a\ll out for the count. Instead of CDG, we get tied up and placed in the BBEGs chamber as dinner when he fancies a snack. When one PC wakes up, his Healing Belt has recharged, and the divine/spontaneous casters have their spells even though we're unarmed. One desperate fight later and the BBEGs are down and we're in possession of our gear again. 2) Character Death: A PC wandered into an encounter we couldn't get them out of until they had taken enough damage to kill them outright. It wasn't meant to kill them, and we felt a bit bad about it, and worked out that with a scroll of Reincarnation costing us just 750gp we could afford to give him another shot at life (we were by now 6th level). So we bought a scroll and gave him a chance (the player, though, has yet to roll for what he comes back as :D ). At the end of the day, death has to be present for the game to be a challenge. But it should be rare, and sometimes ... avoidable if the players are smart. The DM's job is to keep the characters alive while all the while convincing the players he is after their blood ...
Draco_Whitewind 02-09-08, 02:29 PM	So you missed where he said: What I was trying to point out is that in many circumstances resurrecting a dead character isn't an option, in particular with low level parties which his appears to be. You talk about a 'simple raise dead spell' but that is most likely beyond the means of a party this level. If a party is on a quest and someone dies do they drop everything they are doing and walk 3 days to a city big enough to raise their friend abandoning their mission? What if other lives are at stake? Does that make sense? I thought he was talking about possible courses of DM action so that way really bad luck doesn't mean - "Well, so much for that campaign." If half the party died, I'd say they're just a likely to go the TPK option and start completely over. It sort of sucks to spend money on a module for many DMs that they might have to wait for a whole new party just to try it out. I believe he mentioned they were facing a 5th level cleric, which would suggest that they have the wealth of 5th level PCs, or 9000 gp each. about 20-25% of PC wealth is usually in gold. so, 2250 gold or so each they have to spend. Raise dead works perfectly fine and costs a mere 950 gold with diamond. resurrection costs 1410 and is also useable in a larger city (Honestly, I feel really silly for players who don't go to the nearest major city though when starting out. Its like asking to be screwed around with when there's no raise/dispel/break enchantment/remove curse/disease available until you can do it yourself.) Mind you, if they die in a mission, it might actually be worth it to cut your losses and retreat. The idea that they're going to come along and take along someone new so quickly right in the middle of a chaotic area is just Silly. (No, I don't force new characters into parties unless there are extreme circumstance, and usually I set it up so they "find each other" where it would make sense.)
Gargs454 02-10-08, 12:15 PM	To the OP: For me, I've been on both sides of the fence on this issue. I started out being real gentle with my players. In part, because I was new to DM'ing and in part because we don't always get the chance to get together all that often, sometimes going months between sessions. I pretty much agreed that in this situation, death should very rarely occur, because it was hard enough to get the characters up to a high level just because of the time factor. The result was that my players became rather lazy. They would rarely use tactics, and every encounter was obviously meant to be a straight up fight. Obviously, I wouldn't put in anything that could kill them. Skills? what are those? One player didn't even flesh out his skills because he "wasn't sure where he wanted to go with the character yet". Finally, I started to lay down the hammer a little bit. One PC got into an argument with the party (in a great RP moment btw) and went off on his own when the rest of the party wanted to regroup. The result was that PC went into an encounter designed for 5 PCs all by himself. His brains were soon coating the dungeon floor. Ironically, that player was fine with it (he even said he knew that he was being stupid, but that he was doing what the character would do). It was another player that got angry. Now the other player (the one who has not lost a PC) gets annoyed when we even have a tough fight. Part of this is because he realizes I might actually kill his baby (so to speak). On the plus side though, the party has gotten much better at using tactics and skills. They look for ways around an obstacle instead of just mowing through it. They consider all the options open to them. Most importantly, I think that most of the players are having more fun. Getting to your Drizz't comment, I think you miss the mark a little bit with your analogy. The question isn't so much "What if Drizz't died early on?" as it is what if none of the heroes ever died? (And yes I'm including obvious NPCs here). What makes the likes of Drizzt, Cattie-Brie, Entreri, and Jarlaxle so enticing is that they are so rare. In D&D terms, if it is relatively rare to actually make it all the way from 1 - 20, then those PCs that do make it to 20 are going to be very well remembered. Now for the specifics of your group. I do agree that there is a problem here. The main problem is that the DM and the Players are not on the same page in terms of what works and what doesn't in the DM's world/game. The best solution at this point is to sit down (preferably as a group) with your DM and discuss the situation. Make sure you get any houserules written down so that you can refer to them. Let him know how you feel and listen to how he feels. After that, one of three things can happen. 1) You all reach some sort of compromise, 2) The DM doesn't compromise, but you at least know where everything stands and what the houserules are 3) the group agrees to disagree and you look for a new DM.
Becket360 02-10-08, 03:12 PM	Character death happens. If the DM allowed you to rez him and the roll went badly, then their is nothing you should be able to do. I was running a campaign one time and I killed two characters in two rounds from save or die things. It wasn't that I was gunning for anyone, its just that they died due to poor tactics going into an encounter. I was played in a campaign where a wondering encounter with displacer beasts destroyed the party since no one was able to hit them. Other times, the DM might fudge something because the party made a mistake since we had taken a small break and hadn't gotten used to our characters again. In the end, death is very sad and annoying in dnd. People grow attached to their characters and what not. If you even have the materials to rez someone even plays into that.
squidyak 02-10-08, 04:10 PM	Yes, they totally were. Obi-Wan was a textbook Primary Quest Giver, he had NPC written all over him. Wash was the guy that the DM had to make up because nobody wanted to play the pilot. The PCs in Star Wars are clearly Luke, Leia and Han (and even Leia is arguable). The PCs in Serenity are Mal, Zoe, and River. Obi-Wan in the original trilogy was an NPC, but in the prequals was definitely a PC. Was he a retired PC the DM decided to retread as an NPC? I hope the original player wasn't there to watch the DM offhandedly kill him. As for serenity, all the crew were obviously pc caliber. I can't imagine how you don't see Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee as PCs. If anyone is an NPC it would be River. Wash being a PC didn't seem to save him. Other dead PCs from film and literature: Captain Miller (Saving Private Ryan, not Barney), Macbeth, Achilles (The Illiad), Saburo (Ran), and god knows how many others.
mtbOgre 02-10-08, 06:47 PM	Obi-Wan in the original trilogy was an NPC, but in the prequals was definitely a PC. Was he a retired PC the DM decided to retread as an NPC? I hope the original player wasn't there to watch the DM offhandedly kill him. As for serenity, all the crew were obviously pc caliber. I can't imagine how you don't see Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee as PCs. If anyone is an NPC it would be River. Wash being a PC didn't seem to save him. Other dead PCs from film and literature: Captain Miller (Saving Private Ryan, not Barney), Macbeth, Achilles (The Illiad), Saburo (Ran), and god knows how many others. Ok, if he was an NPC he was a really crappy one that had entirely too much effect on the outcome of the adventure. #1 - Bails Luke out from the sandpeople #2 - The infamous "These are not the Droids you're looking for" #3 - Hires Han and Chewie #4 - Shuts off the tractor beam #5 - Distracts BBEG while the rest of the party escapes If he was intended to be a NPC he was that really annoying dreaded "Overpowered DMPC". I actually emailed Lucas about this and here's what he had to say. Well the player characters were Luke, Obi Wan, R2, and Han. Leia, Chewie, and C3PO were NPCs. To be honest Obi Wan was some guy I'd never met before and I wasn't around when he rolled up his character. Turns out he spent too much time on the CO boards and his character was way beyond everyone elses. Han and R2 were at the level everyone was supposed to be at. Luke was a disaster and almost killed the campaign. Shows what happens when you let someone bring in a first level character when everyone else is playing higher level. Eventually the guy who was playing Obi Wan was just hogging the spotlight too much from the other characters. He said he wanted to use dominate person on Vader and when I asked him what the DC was he told me it was 25. I didn't believe him and told him I was going to audit his character sheet. He threw a fit, tore up his character sheet and stormed out of the room. Your Pal, George Lukas (I play Jar Jar) It's all pretty clear when he explained it to me.
Gargs454 02-10-08, 08:06 PM	:rofl: ^^^^
Ambitious 02-10-08, 08:14 PM	Ok, if he was an NPC he was a really crappy one that had entirely too much effect on the outcome of the adventure. #1 - Bails Luke out from the sandpeople #2 - The infamous "These are not the Droids you're looking for" #3 - Hires Han and Chewie #4 - Shuts off the tractor beam #5 - Distracts BBEG while the rest of the party escapes If he was intended to be a NPC he was that really annoying dreaded "Overpowered DMPC". I actually emailed Lucas about this and here's what he had to say. I disagree. Those examples are all A) in the beginning of the story, before all the PCs meet, and/or B) where the PCs aren't. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I might be; I'm very new), but I think it's not railroading to effectively force the characters to come together, and I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with someone who works where the PCs aren't, i. e. a commander in the army overpowering an enemy army while the PCs are off on the other side of the continent foiling enemy spies. I'd actually think having an NPC "railroad" the PCs into coming together is better than just having them start out together, for the sake of realism. It's all pretty clear when he explained it to me. :rofl: :clap:
mtbOgre 02-10-08, 08:24 PM	Obi-Wan in the original trilogy was an NPC, but in the prequals was definitely a PC. Was he a retired PC the DM decided to retread as an NPC? I hope the original player wasn't there to watch the DM offhandedly kill him. As for serenity, all the crew were obviously pc caliber. I can't imagine how you don't see Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee as PCs. If anyone is an NPC it would be River. Wash being a PC didn't seem to save him. Other dead PCs from film and literature: Captain Miller (Saving Private Ryan, not Barney), Macbeth, Achilles (The Illiad), Saburo (Ran), and god knows how many others. Almost forgot about Serenity (Not sure how) PCs were: Mal, Kaylee (Dayum), Zoe, Wash, and I think Jayne was a joke NPC by the DM. River... clearly NPC, except for a very few scenes she had almost no personality at all then BAM. I figure it went down this way. The party got themselves into a fix stuck between two enemies (this was part of the 'Plan' but didn't work out too well). The DM gave the group a last ditch attempt to avoid TPK and Wash's player rolls 2 20's on his piloting skill checks. Gets them through some crazy stuff. Then Wash goes to make his final piloting skill check to land the ship and the DM rules that since the ship is trashed he can't take 10. Wash only needs a 3 to succeed because he has skill focus in piloting. He rolls a 1. Weadon can be a jerk as a DM sometimes and he busts out the critical failure table... So Wash's player is dumbfounded, there's a bio break and the DM is trying to figure out whether to have Wash's player roll a new PC but decides to give him River's character instead. He's a little weirded out playing a chick but the module is almost over. The group plays for a bit longer and until Wash's player notices "Barbarian 20" on the top of River's character sheet...
mtbOgre 02-10-08, 08:32 PM	I'd actually think having an NPC "railroad" the PCs into coming together is better than just having them start out together, for the sake of realism. Funny that, I usually just assume they are already together for reasons known only to the characters themselves. After 2-3 sessions doesn't seem to make much difference, they now have real history together not something contrived before actual play. :rofl: :clap: Thank you, Thank you, I'm here 'til Tuesday.
Etarnon 02-10-08, 08:39 PM	I've always told players, before they sign up for my D&D: No Raise. No Rez. Cure light Wounds costs 1000 GP. You want free, or low cost healing? go to a cleric of a healing order and do favors, or have a player generate one. We use the Dark Sun PC tree, gen three PCs. Once in it, the campaign goes on, and players and thier characters come and go. However, the following seems to be a very simplistic view: ...the Characters are merely a means to play out said campain, and if one dies you roll up a new one and continue along with the story. [snip] The Campaign becomes the medium to tell the story about the Characters. It's both and neither. Maybe the above as quoted is true for your DM's game. To me, a campaign is the sum total of the setting, characters, and events as they have transpired. That said, the PCs, and their children and grandchildren have been in it, have told their stories, and had their stories told. And many have died in silly ways, funny ways, and heroic ways... Without the threat of loss there is no drama. I tell players, "There is no game balance. If you go for a red dragon, before you are ready, it will kill you, but I'll roll the dice, if you make it, very good. if not, this was your only warning, don't bite off more than you can chew." Many characters die in early levels. Many more die about 5th or 6th. One has reached 14th in 3 years of play, then the player retired the PC, who by then was running a country. Your DMs mistake was in not making it clear that is was a gritty, harsh world. Your mistake was in assuming all characters in all games should live forever..because it's your story. Except, some stories are tragic. In the end everyone dies. why not PCs? And yes, as others have said, how many orcs, and such do PCs kill every day in D&D games across the planet, with no thought, other than, "loot." Once a player of the game respects the idea that life is short, the game takes on more meaning. Everything is a risk..of robbery, of making the wrong deal, the wrong enemy. In the right DM's hands, it's a challenge picking the right tavern to walk into.
Draco_Whitewind 02-11-08, 02:30 AM	I've always told players, before they sign up for my D&D: No Raise. No Rez. Cure light Wounds costs 1000 GP. You want free, or low cost healing? go to a cleric of a healing order and do favors, or have a player generate one. We use the Dark Sun PC tree, gen three PCs. Once in it, the campaign goes on, and players and thier characters come and go. However, the following seems to be a very simplistic view: It's both and neither. Maybe the above as quoted is true for your DM's game. To me, a campaign is the sum total of the setting, characters, and events as they have transpired. That said, the PCs, and their children and grandchildren have been in it, have told their stories, and had their stories told. And many have died in silly ways, funny ways, and heroic ways... Without the threat of loss there is no drama. I tell players, "There is no game balance. If you go for a red dragon, before you are ready, it will kill you, but I'll roll the dice, if you make it, very good. if not, this was your only warning, don't bite off more than you can chew." Many characters die in early levels. Many more die about 5th or 6th. One has reached 14th in 3 years of play, then the player retired the PC, who by then was running a country. Your DMs mistake was in not making it clear that is was a gritty, harsh world. Your mistake was in assuming all characters in all games should live forever..because it's your story. Except, some stories are tragic. In the end everyone dies. why not PCs? And yes, as others have said, how many orcs, and such do PCs kill every day in D&D games across the planet, with no thought, other than, "loot." Once a player of the game respects the idea that life is short, the game takes on more meaning. Everything is a risk..of robbery, of making the wrong deal, the wrong enemy. In the right DM's hands, it's a challenge picking the right tavern to walk into. I'd agree to that only if you removed any creatures that have effects that are "save or Die" Like Bodaks, Removed finger of death, wail of the banshee, circle of death, power word kill, Phantasmal Killer, Weirding, Disentegrate etc. Then its okay. (Because if you can't come back from the dead, nothing should say "Okay, fail and you die" instantly.)
Etarnon 02-11-08, 08:07 AM	Well, you might disagree, but it works. The characters say to themselves, wow, that guy likely has finger of death. Therefore we hire assassins, etc. Or the reward is large enough that they in fact, do risk it. Save or die, winner take all. Even basic lvl 1 combat is like that. He hits you, you go below zero. My players are typically gaming adrenalin junkies. We often play skill based games where introductory characters have the same chances of dying as accomplished heroes..BattleTech/Mechwarrior, Traveller, Recon. And those games are all "Save or die" or, sometimes "You made the wrong tactical maneuver, die."
mtbOgre 02-11-08, 12:10 PM	Well, you might disagree, but it works. The characters say to themselves, wow, that guy likely has finger of death. Therefore we hire assassins, etc. Or the reward is large enough that they in fact, do risk it. Save or die, winner take all. Even basic lvl 1 combat is like that. He hits you, you go below zero. My players are typically gaming adrenalin junkies. We often play skill based games where introductory characters have the same chances of dying as accomplished heroes..BattleTech/Mechwarrior, Traveller, Recon. And those games are all "Save or die" or, sometimes "You made the wrong tactical maneuver, die." Also, if there are no consequences to poor gaming choices then players are not motivated to improve their gaming. If a group goes through and the players who make all the right choices wind up with exactly the same rewards as the ones who make poor choices then there is zero reason to ever improve. Death is a strong indicator that a player made a poor choice. It's not 100%, sometimes people do all the right things and die but quite often the ones who die the most are the ones who make the poor choices: "I'm going to use this touch spell on the dragon." "I'm down to 3 hit points and there are still strong enemies right next to me? Ok, I attack the guy in front of me again." "I'm going to play the rogue." You make the wrong decisions and you pay the consequences. That's how people learn and get better at everything.
squidyak 02-11-08, 02:52 PM	It's all pretty clear when he explained it to me. Lol. Chewie an NPC? I always firgured him for a cohort. I saw R2 as a cohort too. Can cohorts have cohorts? I see a luke-r2-3po cohort chain. Of course luke would have to be an 8th level commoner for that to work.
Rhojin 02-11-08, 07:35 PM	I have had a problem like this a few times in my campaign, character dies and the player is a little sore from the experience because they just achieved the level/class/magic item they were yearning for. In one case one of my players was a Dwarf who's whole ambition in life was to become a Dwarven Defender. After achieving said goal he was killed in a drow raid while defending an outpost. There was no way to rez him given his location and lack of clerics. So I said his soul was looking down on his beaten body, full of sorrow that he would no longer be able to serve his king. A devil appeared and offered the him a second chance at life, in return for an undisclosed favor that would be asked of him at a later time. Without thinking he accepted and was raised on the spot, to the shock of his friends. It allowed him to keep playing his dwarf and at the same time allowed me to throw in a really wicked plot twist into the campaign. As a DM I would think of a way to somehow work with the players on this, give the decease the choice to live once more but with some change to their being or twist in the plot that will later effect them. If they refused then their soul would pass on and they would create a new character. Sometimes you just have to accept that your character came to the end of the line, yes it sucks but that is how the dice roll sometimes. Take the good with the bad and don't let something like the death of a character ruin your experience.
Draco_Whitewind 02-11-08, 09:47 PM	Etarnon, quick question - Why the heck does cure light wounds cost 1000 gp? A cure spell costing as much as the enchantment to a suit of armor for a +1 bonus seems ridiculous. (Please tell me you don't enforce natural healing rate rules and just let parties pull the FF Inn rule in that case)
Etarnon 02-12-08, 01:20 AM	Actually, let me correct myself. When I typed Cure Light, I meant to type cure critical. The actual schedule of it is Cure Light 400 Cure Serious 800 Cure Critical 1000 That's just what they cost...roughly based on conversions as to type from 1e AD&D, where a healing potion cost 400 GP...which is where i started. Most of the healing that takes place is in between episodes, at an inn, or the party will go to a cleric, or temple, using the daily rates, plus attending healers, plus con bonus. There's not a lot of combat, what combat happens is deadly, and dramatic, because it's not a case of: I've got 30 HP, and 10 cure light potions, that I bought for 50 each, giving me effectively 100+ HP to manage vs a gnolls' HP. Okay, i spent 2 potions. It's more like, "Damn, gnolls are tough, let's go around.. Ah, we've been spotted!" *grim, gritty battle follows* "Should we use a potion? No, save it, we might get hit again. Let's make for town, and rest up." Magical armor and such (in fact most magic) can't be bought, but is instead found. Potions are an exception, but pretty tough to find. Potions are highly prized, and alchemists (and ingredients) are greatly valued. Magic using characters are mostly NPCs. Sorcerers are all evil, and gain their spells from demonic or draconic forces. Most characters are Fighters, or Rogues, with Clerics, and often a Ranger. Swords and such are of enchantment +2 or +3, sometimes +4, and very rare, but are more common than armor, which averages +2 or +3. It's just a choice I made long ago, and stuck with it, for the long haul...low magic, characters rely on their skills and abilities, more than their gear. Many have disagreed with this philosophy over the years, "too many rules against magic" but the players that like it, like it. I'm not trying to be "D&D" I'm trying to be "My game campaign, and it's specific flavor...magic is rare, and you rely on your wits, and comrades."
Draco_Whitewind 02-12-08, 03:15 AM	Actually, let me correct myself. When I typed Cure Light, I meant to type cure critical. The actual schedule of it is Cure Light 400 Cure Serious 800 Cure Critical 1000 That's just what they cost...roughly based on conversions as to type from 1e AD&D, where a healing potion cost 400 GP...which is where i started. Most of the healing that takes place is in between episodes, at an inn, or the party will go to a cleric, or temple, using the daily rates, plus attending healers, plus con bonus. There's not a lot of combat, what combat happens is deadly, and dramatic, because it's not a case of: I've got 30 HP, and 10 cure light potions, that I bought for 50 each, giving me effectively 100+ HP to manage vs a gnolls' HP. Okay, i spent 2 potions. It's more like, "Damn, gnolls are tough, let's go around.. Ah, we've been spotted!" *grim, gritty battle follows* "Should we use a potion? No, save it, we might get hit again. Let's make for town, and rest up." Magical armor and such (in fact most magic) can't be bought, but is instead found. Potions are an exception, but pretty tough to find. Potions are highly prized, and alchemists (and ingredients) are greatly valued. Magic using characters are mostly NPCs. Sorcerers are all evil, and gain their spells from demonic or draconic forces. Most characters are Fighters, or Rogues, with Clerics, and often a Ranger. Swords and such are of enchantment +2 or +3, sometimes +4, and very rare, but are more common than armor, which averages +2 or +3. It's just a choice I made long ago, and stuck with it, for the long haul...low magic, characters rely on their skills and abilities, more than their gear. Many have disagreed with this philosophy over the years, "too many rules against magic" but the players that like it, like it. I'm not trying to be "D&D" I'm trying to be "My game campaign, and it's specific flavor...magic is rare, and you rely on your wits, and comrades." Seriously, go with 50 gp for a CLW potion and the appropriate players level handbook cost for spells. Dungeons and dragons 3.0 and 3.5 is entirely balanced around the concept that healing is cheap, and free. Thats sort of one of the reason I feel well.. its practically the reason I don't play any older editions of D&D. poor, dated, bad systems. An interesting struggle shouldn't be because of bizzare logic that this spell costs more to have cast than any other. Healing magic isn't special. Save or die spells are only balanced when there's a 1400 gp solution a major city away for it, as well. About your magic logic, I'm really surprised nobody has played a wizard. Free 2 spells per level into their spellbook, and a cleric can just take brew potion, spend a few hundred gold and brew up potions for 25 gp plus I think 2 xp each.
Etarnon 02-12-08, 07:28 AM	Healing magic isn't special. It is in my campaign. Again, I'm not trying to be "Balanced D&D, RAW".
mtbOgre 02-12-08, 01:16 PM	Seriously, go with 50 gp for a CLW potion and the appropriate players level handbook cost for spells. Dungeons and dragons 3.0 and 3.5 is entirely balanced around the concept that healing is cheap, and free. Thats sort of one of the reason I feel well.. its practically the reason I don't play any older editions of D&D. poor, dated, bad systems. An interesting struggle shouldn't be because of bizzare logic that this spell costs more to have cast than any other. Healing magic isn't special. Save or die spells are only balanced when there's a 1400 gp solution a major city away for it, as well. About your magic logic, I'm really surprised nobody has played a wizard. Free 2 spells per level into their spellbook, and a cleric can just take brew potion, spend a few hundred gold and brew up potions for 25 gp plus I think 2 xp each. :rolleyes: You are missing the point. All magic is expensive and fairly rare in his world. As for crafting... I'm not sure about his world by my guess is that the party is out adventuring not sitting around crafting potions. The D&D rules are a framework not a straitjacket, most DMs houserule something or another and it's all good as long as the players and DM are enjoying it. If players known that dead is dead then they play entirely differently than if they know they can cut off Johnny's thumb and run to the corner store to get him fixed.
Dan Hemmens 02-12-08, 03:46 PM	Obi-Wan in the original trilogy was an NPC, but in the prequals was definitely a PC. In the prequels he doesn't die. Was he a retired PC the DM decided to retread as an NPC? I hope the original player wasn't there to watch the DM offhandedly kill him. As for serenity, all the crew were obviously pc caliber. I can't imagine how you don't see Wash, Jayne, and Kaylee as PCs. Because they're wallpaper. Wash was the guy who was there to fly the ship. That was it. Jayne is there for conflict, but he's not actually important. Kaylee similarly is sweet but she's pure scenery. If anyone is an NPC it would be River. Wash being a PC didn't seem to save him. That's because Wash wasn't a PC, he was an NPC. He was the guy whose sole function was to fly the ship, and the GM killed him off once the ship crashed. Other dead PCs from film and literature: Captain Miller (Saving Private Ryan, not Barney), Macbeth, Achilles (The Illiad), Saburo (Ran), and god knows how many others. Macbeth dies at the end, so it doesn't count. He isn't killed halfway through. Achilles either isn't a PC, or else his DM was a dick (yes, they totally fired a poison arrow at your *heel* deal with it). Not seen either of the others. Characters you like are not the protagonists.
lastknightleft 02-12-08, 04:49 PM	No but characters that participate in action when no other characters are on screen are either BBEGs or PCs, remember when they shot Obi-wan turning off the tractor beam? What kind of aweful DM has his players sit and wait while he describes the NPC using the force to distract the guards. If he was an NPC then we would have seen all the other scenes in the movie and that one would have hit the cutting room floor, since the other PCs didn't even know if it happened until they weren't caught in a tractor beam.
mtbOgre 02-12-08, 05:38 PM	Because they're wallpaper. Wash was the guy who was there to fly the ship. That was it. Jayne is there for conflict, but he's not actually important. Kaylee similarly is sweet but she's pure scenery. That's because Wash wasn't a PC, he was an NPC. He was the guy whose sole function was to fly the ship, and the GM killed him off once the ship crashed. Remember, 4 characters in a party. Mal, Zoe, Wash and Kaylee. Jayne is hired muscle, a cohort at best more likely just a mercenary NPC. Book? No. The Doctor? Worthless. River? She's either on or off... no personality, more of an artifact than a person... obviously NPC. Oh... almost forgot the hooker. NPC
Draco_Whitewind 02-12-08, 05:43 PM	:rolleyes: You are missing the point. All magic is expensive and fairly rare in his world. As for crafting... I'm not sure about his world by my guess is that the party is out adventuring not sitting around crafting potions. The D&D rules are a framework not a straitjacket, most DMs houserule something or another and it's all good as long as the players and DM are enjoying it. If players known that dead is dead then they play entirely differently than if they know they can cut off Johnny's thumb and run to the corner store to get him fixed. In regards to the quoted part - Its not hard for adventurers to take a few days off, potions take a day, and so do most scrolls and such. But I really don't understand what you meant by "Johnny's Thumb" situation either since its not like any specific part can be damaged on a player, cure spells mend broken bones instantly, technically. Sure, healing might not be readily available IF they don't provide it. If such rules are in effect, someone had better well play a positive energy using Cleric. (clerics, etc. a rogue with a wand of cure light wounds made by a 5th level cleric in the party can dispense a lot of healing in a pinch.) In regards to etarons rules about death before - I'd imagine the complete opposite happens. if at worst you cant WISH or MIRACLE someone back, or use magic to further increase the safety of the party (I miss Tower shields from 3.0 for this reason:( ) and there's a severe threat of death (Although, with a cleric and a druid in the party for healing options, I can't see them having any problems given the cleric can just spontaneously cast cure X wounds) it leads to people just assuming death is a part of of the game on both sides, and quite often. While the option to try a lot of characters is exciting for me, (Power gamer, ruleslawyer when not DM) I can imagine thats a bummer for most when hitting -10 means THE END. It also really takes value away from what high level clerics have power-wise to ensure their most loyal follower's and companion's survival. (Although, frequent trips to death turning in more to a revolving door is just as bad when its too easy or common.)
mtbOgre 02-12-08, 05:54 PM	I'd imagine the complete opposite happens. if at worst you cant WISH or MIRACLE someone back, or use magic to further increase the safety of the party (I miss Tower shields from 3.0 for this reason:( ) and there's a severe threat of death (Although, with a cleric and a druid in the party for healing options, I can't see them having any problems given the cleric can just spontaneously cast cure X wounds) it leads to people just assuming its a part of of the game on both sides. While the option to try a lot of characters is exciting for me, (Power gamer, ruleslawyer when not DM) I can imagine thats a bummer for most when hitting -10 means THE END. It also really takes value away from what high level clerics have power-wise to ensure their most loyal follower's and companion's survival. (Although, frequent trips to death turning in more to a revolving door is just as bad when its too easy or common.) I have no idea what you are trying to say here.