Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PenderGrass 01-29-07, 08:05 PM	According to the SRD Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. So, a very low charisma should be the antithesis of the above - or, more specifically, maybe the following?: 1. Low force of personality (i.e., demure). 2. Low persauviveness (i.e., no leadership skills). 3. Low personal magnetism (i.e., repellent). 4. Low physical attractiveness (i.e., a poop-covered person that has rotted teeth). But how to make sure that this is properly role-played by your player that is wondering about guidelines? What does this mean to you as a DM? How would you advise someone that is looking for role-playing this low of a charisma - but also has a fairly high intelligence and wisdom - and is by no means stupid or foolish? :dragon: ****
icarus1863 01-29-07, 08:11 PM	Mathew Brodwick as "Mouse" in the Movie "LadyHawk" He was a bit of a coward, wasnt a leader by any means, and not that attractive. But he lived by his wits, and made his way through the world.
GhostOfJacK 01-29-07, 08:29 PM	Well, personally, I know that people always say to not go with stereotypes when it comes to stats (ie. Cha 18 is a beautiful maiden) but when you go for low stats, I think it applies (works for half orcs with low Int doesn't it?) With such low chas I would do the following. I would have a very unattractive man, prolly like dwarven short but still a human. If a serious bow in his back. You also make him warty, maybe lopside his features. Kinda like the hunchback of Notre Dame. That deals with the looks. Now for personality, definitely a brash personality. The sort of guy who never gets any jokes, says really odd things at times (say like how the solution would be to skin the bar's cat), and really odd habits that generally aren't very sociable (ie. crucifying mice before bedtime). It doesn't need to be evil or mean, just think about those creepy people you run in to on the street that try to sell you on the idea of aliens and that. Make him meek and cowardly, and that should be good enough to have a 5 Cha. Now to justify the high Int and Wis, he could easily have that. Your stereotypical nerd in highschool isn't attractive, very meek, and his humor didn't fit in with other people's, but I am sure he was brilliant as hell. If he ever had enough courage, his ideas would be thoughtful and intelligent. Just my two rubles.
Chalkboard_Sonata 01-29-07, 08:29 PM	Socrates.
Moont 01-29-07, 08:31 PM	don't forget that a Wujen with their taboos can be very uncharismatic. Specially if they lose their spells for certain taboos such as not taking a bath...EVER!
RK)13 01-29-07, 08:35 PM	If you've read the Belgariad and the Mallorean, I would recommend making Beldin: never bathes, eats whatever is at hand (or stuck to him), hunchback, disfigured, insults everyone as terms of endearment, but he has a beautiful soul.
Alex_ 01-29-07, 08:39 PM	The reason for low stats doesn't have to be attributed to a single readily identifiable factor. It can be a combination of many things. Your character is all of the above, in just enough of a way that people just don't feel as moved, or may even be made uncomfortable by their presence.
Old Sparky 01-29-07, 09:09 PM	The way I see it, "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness" are the sum parts of Charisma, but they don't have to be equal parts. Someone with an 18 Charisma could be as ugly and physically unappealing as, say for example the short dark haired leader of an aryan nation... what he lacked in appearance, he makes up for in leadership and persuasiveness. Then think of those vapid, beautiful woman stereotypes who can wrap men around their fingers with their physical appeal... but lack any real personality and might be social pariahs. I'd say choose what you want to focus on and work it out in the roleplay. Don't let your Charisma score define your roleplay, let your roleplaying define the ability score. If your character has an average score (11) but you want to be handsome/gorgeous in spite of it, great... just pick some negative aspect to also balance it out, such as being a very poor leader or maybe quite unpersuasive. It all evens out to having no Charisma modifier as a whole even though the character should have a negative in one regard and positive in another, and maybe none in other circumstances. Rather than splitting how Charisma's components work in some situations, you average it all out in the roleplaying. Hell, you could have a low Charisma score and roleplay your character as physically attractive with personal magnetism and is a good leader type with a seemingly persuasive demeanor, but the character may have poor "people skills" because of a lack of social skills or poor perception of what others expect of him/her. Have fun with it. Roleplay... but don't feel locked in by numbers when roleplaying, just accept the limitations of the system. You may be beautiful and deliver moving speeches and cunning bluffs, but a low charisma score means people just don't trust the feedback they're getting from you.
_SIN_ 01-29-07, 09:20 PM	Yeah, a really arrogant, rude, borderline hostile wizard fits the bill. Looks down on EVERYONE, regardless of race, colour & creed. Really, as long as the character has reasons why he is not liked, be they physical, mental or social - you're covered. Look at reality - there are plenty of gorgeous women out there with an attitude that'd make Lloth blanch!!
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-29-07, 09:36 PM	Cha of 5 implies that there is something demonstrably repugnant about your manner. This could be a pronounced stutter, sneering condecension in even their smallest remarks, or a thick line of prepetual drool. 'Ugly' is a cop out and should never be used to describe a low Cha.
Old Sparky 01-29-07, 09:57 PM	I'm just saying that a low Charisma score doesn't have to mean a character is flawed in all aspects of the statistic... ...but, as for ugly being a copout, I strongly disagree. There are many a good people full of the charm and with eloquence to spare; but ugly people are often overlooked in spite of good personality and leadership skills. It happens. Just like it happens that beautiful people often get plenty of underserved respect and/or influence with others despite a lack of personality or any sense of force of will.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-29-07, 10:47 PM	Ugly is at best a circumstance penalty. Charisma represents so much more than appearence that the contribution from appearence is negligable at best.
Dm_Farble 01-29-07, 11:01 PM	I got my actual stats for that test everyone is ranting about. Apparently my cha score is 12. I thought this was odd, Thinking I look like a sack of troll dung, and havent had a girlfriend for a very long time. But, I am persuasive, tend to explain things very well, get along weith almost everybody, easygoing and polite. Most people arent
olshanski_home 01-29-07, 11:03 PM	A 5 CHA should be treated just as ridiculously ugly and introverted as you would consider a 16 to be beautiful and gregarious.
johnhansen 01-29-07, 11:14 PM	icarus1863Mathew Brodwick as "Mouse" in the Movie "LadyHawk" He was a bit of a coward, wasnt a leader by any means, and not that attractive. But he lived by his wits, and made his way through the world. Personally I would not think the mouse had a Charisma below 8, same as a average kobold. But still great example.
ZolDarklock 01-30-07, 12:25 AM	Charisma encompasses a lot, to pigeon hole one with low charisma to all the above mentioned negatives would be a shame... Example: a thri-kreen have natural low charisma (-6), when dealing with humanoids, it has nothing to do with their personality, it has do with their alien insectoid like appearance, which inspires a natural repulsion/fear to most humanoids not accustomed to such creatures unfortunetly most monster designers think alien looking scary creature = low charisma, but for some reason they dont allow humanoids to have the same effect "a very low charisma modifier" when they deal with such creatures, seems what is good for the goose, is not good for the gander mentality is applied... PS - the mouse was not a bad looking kid, and was quite charming and very likable person, and he generally came off as someone who could be trusted not to kill you in your sleep for profit, someone who would not betray you unless he was forced too or die, but never for something such as profit... don't really see how he would have low charisma just because his leadership skills sucked
Cromage 01-30-07, 12:50 AM	So very many ways you can go about that. The shy, stammering introvert. Brash overconfident jerk. Arrogant know-it-all more used to dealing with books/plants than people. Incapable of speaking to attractive members of opposite sex. Uncomfortable around crowds. Indecisive in a way that lessens ability to convince others (works well with high mental stats as higher intelligence/wisdom so often just means you have more tough choices to make). Growing up with 2 parents, a sister, and a cow (and the problems with that) Any combination of anything above (since you're aiming for a very low score) Physical appearance is a whole new can of worms. Be careful since natural beauty is... so ****ing subjective. Blonde/blue-eyed/fair-skinned person does not have higher Cha than Brown-brown-brown, all things being equal. On the other hand, a poor physical appearance can be a reflection of apathy on the part of the character (i.e. not caring enough to wash their hair).
Crash169 01-30-07, 12:58 AM	Use Tyrion Lannister from the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. He's repulsive on every level. Appearance, attitude, and manners. But he is incredibly witty and has the smarts to go with it.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 01:43 AM	The way I see it, "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness" are the sum parts of Charisma, but they don't have to be equal parts. Best way to put it. :clap: 'Ugly' is a cop out and should never be used to describe a low Cha. The real world is not that perfect, and neither is D&D world. An awful lot rides on appearances. Until telepathy is evolved as a common trait what is on the outside is going to matter.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 01:47 AM	The real world is not that perfect, and neither is D&D world. An awful lot rides on appearances. Until telepathy is evolved as a common trait what is on the outside is going to matter. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- It's not just that "ugly" shouldn't go with low Cha, it's that making it do so makes no sense. Aside from this *one* offhand reference in the PHB, *nothing* about the way Charisma works in the game allows you to consider physical attractiveness as part of it. It's a *mental stat*. If you consider Cha to be physical attractiveness, then you'd take Cha damage from getting disfiguring scars; you could get Cha buffs by using disguise self to make yourself look prettier; objects that are pretty, like statues of beautiful women, would have higher Cha; you could change Cha by going from one culture to another one that had different standards of beauty; being Cha drained would involve becoming uglier, and a Cha 0 character would somehow have attained "maximum ugliness"; and so on. It just doesn't make sense. It's dumb. And the explanation that Cha is mental force or self-awareness is so much better and so much more self-consistent and it's *obvious* it's what the designers really think (or else mind flayers, liches, and so on wouldn't have such high Cha scores).
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 01:56 AM	I've said it before and I'll say it again -- It's not just that "ugly" shouldn't go with low Cha, it's that making it do so makes no sense. Aside from this *one* offhand reference in the PHB, *nothing* about the way Charisma works in the game allows you to consider physical attractiveness as part of it. It's a *mental stat*. If you consider Cha to be physical attractiveness, then you'd take Cha damage from getting disfiguring scars; you could get Cha buffs by using disguise self to make yourself look prettier; objects that are pretty, like statues of beautiful women, would have higher Cha; you could change Cha by going from one culture to another one that had different standards of beauty; being Cha drained would involve becoming uglier, and a Cha 0 character would somehow have attained "maximum ugliness"; and so on. It just doesn't make sense. It's dumb. And the explanation that Cha is mental force or self-awareness is so much better and so much more self-consistent and it's *obvious* it's what the designers really think (or else mind flayers, liches, and so on wouldn't have such high Cha scores). You can't go to 0CHA just by becoming maximally ugly. You have to hit all the other parts of CHA as well. A charisma all the way down to 6 (-2) could be described as radically poor appearance. Below that would need help from other charisma deficiencies to explain it. Ever tried talking to a pretty woman who could only titter and giggle to the point you wanted to gag and run? What happened was you were drawn in by the physical beauty part of it, but repelled when she opened her trap. Why else does the 'stunning beauty' trait only make CHA go up?
ArcTan 01-30-07, 02:05 AM	You can't go to 0CHA just by becoming maximally ugly. You have to hit all the other parts of CHA as well. So, what, when I manifest ego whip on you, it decreases your strength of personality (as the power's description actually describes it doing) until you're, like, Cha 2, and then it suddenly starts making your face uglier? C'mon. Cha 0 doesn't even describe your appearance at all. It just says you're in a catatonic state and lack volition. Because Cha is a MENTAL STAT and not a physical one. (I think a major part of why this is stupid is that I can't think of the idea of physical attractiveness being an objective quality as anything but ludicrous. What the hell happens when the Cha 2 character starts getting his remaining bits of attractiveness pumped out of him? Does he swell up and get flabbier? Does his face go asymmetrical? Does he grow unsightly body hair, which retracts when his Cha goes back up again? Sheesh.) A charisma all the way down to 6 (-2) could be described as radically poor appearance. Below that would need help from other charisma deficiencies to explain it. Ever tried talking to a pretty woman who could only titter and giggle to the point you wanted to gag and run? What happened was you were drawn in by the physical beauty part of it, but repelled when she opened her trap. ...And you're saying that if I shot this woman with an ego whip she'd, like, get fat or something. Right. Why else does the 'stunning beauty' trait only make CHA go up? Because D&D was much stupider in past editions, like the past edition that contains the "Stunning Beauty" trait.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 02:11 AM	Because D&D was much stupider in past editions, like the past edition that contains the "Stunning Beauty" trait. Actually that is a 3.5 book I found it in. Past editions we used a houseruled stat called Comeliness (or whatever). There was also some kind of character I saw in one of the books a teammate has (3.5 I can assure you) where this character was a Radiant Beauty or something. Special ability, CHA 18. A template ,maybe?
DrWorm 01-30-07, 02:20 AM	Whenever someone mentions a person with a low charisma and a high intelligence I think of someone with Aspergers (a highfunctioning form of Autism). They are generally very bright when it comes to raw facts, concepts, and ideas as long as they do not involve reading the emotions of others. They have a very low emotional intelligence to the extent that they are virtually unable to read the mood, emotions, and intentions of others. They are very poor at "reading between the lines" and often misunderstand hyperbole and sarchasm. This generally results in them being shunned socailly as they make so many social missteps. They also tend avoid social situations intentionally as the anxiety of trying to figure out people's intentions is often too much to bear. Many of you may know someone who resembles this to some extent. That is not really surprising as pursuits such as gaming, and programming tend to attract this type of person. All of that being said I say the best option is to not allow any stat to be that low, unless it is becuase of some kind of in game "damage". I just think that people that deficient in charisma would never become part of a party of adventurers. These people just do not inspire the kind of trust and cooperation that is required in such a group.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 02:20 AM	So, what, when I manifest ego whip on you, it decreases your strength of personality (as the power's description actually describes it doing) until you're, like, Cha 2, and then it suddenly starts making your face uglier? C'mon. You could say that. It's one way of imagining it. Or you could degrade slightly in appearance with each hit. Does his face go asymmetrical? The muscles holding your face up are controlled by a subconcious that could be battered during the ego whipping process. I'd go with that one. It seems more reasonable then to think that someone's appearance has no effect on the reactions they produce in other people.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 02:24 AM	Actually that is a 3.5 book I found it in. Past editions we used a houseruled stat called Comeliness (or whatever). Really? Which book, out of curiosity? 3.5 has been pretty good as far as I've seen when it comes to not repeating hoary old 1e-isms like "CN alignment = sociopathic insanity" or "High Cha = big boobs". Traits aren't even a core mechanic -- they're a mechanic from Unearthed Arcana, the most recent version of which, in the SRD, contains no "beauty" trait. There was also some kind of character I saw in one of the books a teammate has (3.5 I can assure you) where this character was a Radiant Beauty or something. Special ability, CHA 18. A template ,maybe? "Radiant Beauty" as a (Su) ability or something I could accept, since it's something that's doing something to affect your mind by magic. I don't dispute that high-Cha creatures have the ability to make people see them as beautiful, if the cultural circumstances are right and they choose to do so -- I interpret the "physical attractiveness" thing as meaning that, however someone's face is shaped, a high-Cha character makes you want to fall in love with them based on the way they look at you and a low-Cha character can't affect anyone that way, because no matter how nice their face and body are their personality is unattractive and gets you to see their face and body as unattractive as well.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 02:25 AM	Many of you may know someone who resembles this to some extent. That is not really surprising as pursuits such as gaming, and programming tend to attract this type of person. It also tends to be a field filled with people accepting of someone behaving under these conditions. At least I'd hoped so.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 02:29 AM	You could say that. It's one way of imagining it. Or you could degrade slightly in appearance with each hit. The muscles holding your face up are controlled by a subconcious that could be battered during the ego whipping process. I'd go with that one. It seems more reasonable then to think that someone's appearance has no effect on the reactions they produce in other people. *shrug* That face-muscle thing seems dubious to me. After all, people who have been completely Dex drained don't lose any Cha for having muscles that have gone all twitchy, nor do completely Str drained people lose Cha for having muscles that have gone all slack. But yes, I'll totally buy that the part of physical attractiveness that has to do with posture, facial expression, gestures, laying your hand on someone's shoulder at just the right time, looking away at just the right moment, tilting your head so the shadows hit you just right -- that these are all part of Cha. As for appearance having an effect on how people perceive you -- sure. Cha isn't just how other people perceive you, though. Cha is things like whether you have self-awareness at all (0 Cha and 1 Cha is the difference between an object and a creature -- note that Wis and Cha are the *only* two stats that matter for this distinction) and Cha is things like whether Sorcerers get bonus spells, what bonus Rogues get on UMD, what DC monsters get on their SLAs, etc. Don't tell me that the forces of magic give more spells to prettier Sorcs, or that the wand cares how big your boobs are when you try to force it to work. Appearance, on its own, has the same effect on how people perceive you as things like how well-dressed you are, whether you're of a race the person is prejudiced against, whether you're of the right gender for them to be sexually attracted to you, what accent you speak with, etc. -- i.e. like all other purely subjective things that solely function in a social context, it should be a circumstance modifier to social skill rolls.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 02:30 AM	Actually that is a 3.5 book I found it in. Past editions we used a houseruled stat called Comeliness (or whatever). There was also some kind of character I saw in one of the books a teammate has (3.5 I can assure you) where this character was a Radiant Beauty or something. Special ability, CHA 18. A template ,maybe? By the way, are you sure these are WotC books, and not third-party books under the OGL? A lot of D&D-isms that WotC themselves are trying to abandon have been retained by lots and lots of the third-party publishers. I know that there's a d20 Modern third-party book that makes beauty part of the Talent Tree for Charismatic Heroes, for instance.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-30-07, 02:43 AM	Just wondering: Do you think Great Wyrm Black dragons are like the pinnacle of scaly hotness? Or here's a fun one; ghosts: -They get thier charisma score to AC... because they're too seXXXy to hit? - Thier Horriffic Appearance save DC is Cha based. Scary pretty? - Becoming a Ghost grants a +4 to Cha. Dying does wonders for the pores, no?
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 02:44 AM	Really? Which book, out of curiosity? 3.5 has been pretty good as far as I've seen when it comes to not repeating hoary old 1e-isms like "CN alignment = sociopathic insanity" or "High Cha = big boobs". Please :rolleyes: If they're that dang big they are called lookitthose! and have a permanent ,silent, feeblemind effect. Seriously though, I can't tell you which book it was in at the moment. It is in company with about 9/10 of my D&D books at a player's house. All I have here are my Tri-Stat: where beauty is an ability with variable stat governances, C&C: I'm sure you don't want to hear about, and T:2K which beauty is absent totally. Or GURPS which bases it on the same stat that governs overall health and still requires some point expenditure to aquire. Sorry :( "Radiant Beauty" as a (Su) ability or something I could accept, since it's something that's doing something to affect your mind by magic. I don't dispute that high-Cha creatures have the ability to make people see them as beautiful, if the cultural circumstances are right and they choose to do so -- I interpret the "physical attractiveness" thing as meaning that, however someone's face is shaped, a high-Cha character makes you want to fall in love with them based on the way they look at you and a low-Cha character can't affect anyone that way, because no matter how nice their face and body are their personality is unattractive and gets you to see their face and body as unattractive as well. I thought magical disguise could make you look more attractive (if that was the effect you were looking for) because it modifies the disguise roll. Like, I want to disguise myself as a handsome stud with this spell. Disguise being a CHA skill-check and the magic giving a bonus mod to it. It wouldn't be the stand alone trait of CHA. But ,it could go a significant distance to explaining a CHA penalty. "Okay, Ace. Why does your guy have a -1 CHA? In-game ,please" "Well, he is really ugly." "Ugly? But you could overcome that with force of personality, right?" "Theoritically, yeah. But, my guy hasn't figuered out how, or spent any points into figuring out how."
ArcTan 01-30-07, 02:53 AM	Please :rolleyes: If they're that dang big they are called lookitthose! and have a permanent ,silent, feeblemind effect. Seriously though, I can't tell you which book it was in at the moment. It is in company with about 9/10 of my D&D books at a player's house. All I have here are my Tri-Stat: where beauty is an ability with variable stat governances, C&C: I'm sure you don't want to hear about, and T:2K which beauty is absent totally. Or GURPS which bases it on the same stat that governs overall health and still requires some point expenditure to aquire. Sorry :( *shrug* Generally I think of "beauty" being objective in RPGs as an annoying kludge, since it's far from objective even within a small group of people, all from the same culture (we've all been in situations where we thought one person was totally hot and all our friends were somewhat mystified by this opinion), but it's understandable -- beauty is something that, objective or not, is really important to the way a lot of us live our lives and see the world, so RPGs try to take it into account. But yes, making physical beauty fade into the background compared to a more objective *spiritual* beauty -- or, if not beauty, *power* -- is somethin I like a lot about where 3.5 has taken the Cha stat. At least, it lets you have really ugly creatures like mind flayers still be powerful Sorcerers if you want them to be. I thought magical disguise could make you look more attractive (if that was the effect you were looking for) because it modifies the disguise roll. Like, I want to disguise myself as a handsome stud with this spell. Disguise being a CHA skill-check and the magic giving a bonus mod to it. That doesn't really make sense, since being really beautiful doesn't help you disguise yourself as an ugly person. Nothing about Disguise says that your own Cha and the Cha of the assumed form must match. If Cha is some kind of personal force or some kind of basic understanding of human nature, of course, then Cha making you a better actor when it comes to Disguise checks makes a lot more sense. But a really beautiful woman who's an absolute idiot about how people work will be *worse* at disguising herself than someone who's just as clueless as her but looks like a totally boring average Joe. It wouldn't be the stand alone trait of CHA. But ,it could go a significant distance to explaining a CHA penalty. "Okay, Ace. Why does your guy have a -1 CHA? In-game ,please" "Well, he is really ugly." "Ugly? But you could overcome that with force of personality, right?" "Theoritically, yeah. But, my guy hasn't figuered out how, or spent any points into figuring out how." Er, you can't literally have a "-1 Cha". Someone with Cha 0 is catatonic and unable to move or think, which is the main reason I don't think physical appearance can fit into this at all. If you mean he has an 8 Cha, enh. Spending ranks is something I view as gaining skill in things like lying or debating, but it's *not* actually increasing your force of personality -- that's a Cha increase. Force of personality is what's supposedly getting you those bonus Sorc spells or letting you force a wand to work, after all, both of which are base Cha checks, not skill checks.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 02:53 AM	*shrug* That face-muscle thing seems dubious to me. After all, people who have been completely Dex drained don't lose any Cha for having muscles that have gone all twitchy, nor do completely Str drained people lose Cha for having muscles that have gone all slack. Appearance, on its own, has the same effect on how people perceive you as things like how well-dressed you are, whether you're of a race the person is prejudiced against, whether you're of the right gender for them to be sexually attracted to you, what accent you speak with, etc. -- i.e. like all other purely subjective things that solely function in a social context, it should be a circumstance modifier to social skill rolls. These two points I would want to say something on. If your CHA goes to 0 (drained) don't you become a lump? As in comatose? Then ,wouldn't the effect also be that you in fact don't have STR or DEX since you can't want to move. Same with if your STR goes to 0. You can't apply any CHA skills, so your CHA does suffer greatly. A permanent circumstance modifier is an attribute. Being Hot Dang! can transcend across many cultures. Even if an Orc isn't attracted to the Elf maiden (too dainty) he could recognize that such a maiden does fetch a higher price on the flesh blocks. A respect of appearances only despite cultural differences. Just wondering: Do you think Great Wyrm Black dragons are like the pinnacle of scaly hotness? Or here's a fun one; ghosts: -They get thier charisma score to AC... because they're too seXXXy to hit? - Thier Horriffic Appearance save DC is Cha based. Scary pretty? - Becoming a Ghost grants a +4 to Cha. Dying does wonders for the pores, no? Becoming a ghost would eliminate odor from poor hygiene.:thinks: Vaal, this is turning into your own little straw guy here. Physical appearance is one part of a whole of charisma. Upto certain limits which stretch credubility ,it can be the strongest factor present. It is not the one trait to rule them all, though.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-30-07, 02:55 AM	It wouldn't be the stand alone trait of CHA. But ,it could go a significant distance to explaining a CHA penalty. I'd say it does it poorly. "Okay, Ace. Why does your guy have a -1 CHA? In-game ,please" "Well, he is really ugly." "So... the corresponding penalty to Bluff... you're so ugly it makes you a bad liar? And the penalty to UMD is because they can't stand the look of ya? You almost had me there -- Seriously though, no more joking. What's the real reason you have that Cha penalty?"
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:01 AM	These two points I would want to say something on. If your CHA goes to 0 (drained) don't you become a lump? As in comatose? Then ,wouldn't the effect also be that you in fact don't have STR or DEX since you can't want to move. Sure, but mechanically your Str and Dex scores are still the same. If I'm attacking you with different forms of ability damage, I still need to attack your Str and Dex all the way down if I want to reduce those scores. This may seem moot, but it does matter sometimes, such as with magical effects that use only your body and not your mind, usually by replacing your mind with someone else's. Mind switch, for instance. Same with if your STR goes to 0. You can't apply any CHA skills, so your CHA does suffer greatly. Er, except it doesn't. It prevents you from moving physically, but unlike a mental-stat-drained character, a character with drained Str or Dex is still conscious and capable of taking purely mental actions. Thus, a Str 0 Sorcerer is still capable of casting spells with the Still and Silent metamagic feats, and she'll have all her normal bonus spells and save DCs. A Str 0 Wilder is still perfectly capable of manifesting psionic powers normally. If you can speak without moving your mouth -- i.e. through telepathy -- then you can make social skill checks like Diplomacy or Bluff this way with no penalty. Etc. Becoming a ghost would eliminate odor from poor hygiene. Vaal, this is turning into your own little straw guy here. Physical appearance is one part of a whole of charisma. Upto certain limits which stretch credubility ,it can be the strongest factor present. It is not the one trait to rule them all, though. Yes, but there are all kinds of little contradictions here that just go away if you ignore that one unfortunate passing reference in the PHB, which we can interpret to mean something different anyway. (Yes, high-Cha characters *appear* more physically attractive, but this is because of the way they *use* their bodies and the way their personality shines through, *not* because of the way their bodies are actually shaped.)
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:02 AM	ack! computer burped.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-30-07, 03:04 AM	Physical appearance is one part of a whole of charisma. Upto certain limits which stretch credubility ,it can be the strongest factor present. It is not the one trait to rule them all, though. One, tiny, infintismal part beyond the realm of the actual applications of the stat. Nothing else in the entire damn core holds any support for the idea that marring or concealing physical appearence does anything in game. Like at all. My sorcerer can disguise self as a drooling Igor and still have an 18 Cha. But I can buy Igor a hat of disguise and he'll still be no better at lying. Hell, getting older (and thus wrinkly and liver spotted) give you a bonus to Cha! The rules are full of proof that physicall appearence is a null issue when it comes to charisma and yet people cling to that hideous abortion of a line in the stat description to justify something that is clearly just not present anywhere in the game. Edit: And stop using the term 'strawman' as part of your argument. IF you knew what 'strawman' meant, you wouldn't be using it in an argument.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:05 AM	I'd say it does it poorly. "So... the corresponding penalty to Bluff... you're so ugly it makes you a bad liar? And the penalty to UMD is because they can't stand the look of ya? You almost had me there -- Seriously though, no more joking. What's the real reason you have that Cha penalty?" Bluff= if you come to my job looking like a crack head (very unattractive) your bluff could be +10 and I couldn't let you past the door. the player stated he hasn't learned how(spent points) to project past his physical deformaties.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:10 AM	Okay, first of all, coming to your job looking like a crack head imposes a *circumstance* penalty on the Bluff (I assume the Bluff in this case is "I really do work here"?). Lying doesn't have to be lying to look respectable. It can be the exact *opposite*, in fact. What if I've disguised myself as a homeless person and am walking past you mumbling "Spare some change, sir? I've fallen on hard times", despite the fact that I am not actually a grimy homeless person but am actually a glamorous KGB spy? Would you still say you'd be more likely to believe my lie if I looked more attractive?
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:12 AM	Er, except it doesn't. It prevents you from moving physically, but unlike a mental-stat-drained character, a character with drained Str or Dex is still conscious and capable of taking purely mental actions. I don't think you are. STR 0 would apply to unconscious muscalature as well, like breathing and heart rate. I'd say you were out light a broken light bulb. And CON could be the closest you get to an 'appealing' physical trait, since it determines health. The healthier you are the healthier you look. More often then not healthy looks attractive. And CON0 is out of conscious. So I'd say the same would apply to other physical stats. Out of points is out of action.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:14 AM	Nothing else in the entire damn core holds any support for the idea that marring or concealing physical appearence does anything in game. Like at all. Yeah it does. There are quite a few CHA based actions that have no effect on anyone that cannot view you.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:17 AM	By the way, Cha is fundamentally a force of internal personality, not "likeability". I would say that a low-Cha character only fundamentally has to be someone who just doesn't connect with people. This could manifest as constantly acting out in ways that make people uncomfortable or upset because he doesn't realize they do -- drooling or whatever -- or it could manifest as simply fading into the background and being wooden and uncommunicative. It doesn't matter. As long as you get the core idea that the person keeps their insides on the inside and has a very hard time putting emotions out in the open in a way people can appreciate -- they're not in touch with their own emotions and can't communicate them to others -- there's many ways to play a low-Cha character. I would say someone with severely low Cha, like 5, though, probably does have some kind of personality disorder -- diagnosably on the autism spectrum, suffering from social anxiety disorder, that kind of thing. They're *so* withdrawn that they can't even communicate on the same level as the vast majority of humanity. By the way, thri-kreen's Cha penalty is usually explained nowadays as an objective result of their personality, not just because they look weird to most races. Dromites, you'll notice, are also an insect-like race, but dromites get a *bonus* to Cha. This is because dromites are based on ant-like social insects and have a personality that automatically tries to reach out to other beings and find common ground with them. Thri-kreen, on the other hand, are based on praying mantes, solitary predator insects, and therefore have a very cold, cruel, calculating mindset that is intensely selfish and only considers other beings in the sense of rational self-interest. Their *own* society is one in which individuals are in intense competition with each other and have very little empathy for each other, leadership and societal roles being based on purely rational calculations. It's *this* that makes it so difficult for other races to relate to them, not just the fact that they're "weird" -- it's the fact that they have naturally, objectively uncharismatic personalities.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:20 AM	My sorcerer can disguise self as a drooling Igor and still have an 18 Cha. But I can buy Igor a hat of disguise and he'll still be no better at lying. Edit: And stop using the term 'strawman' as part of your argument. IF you knew what 'strawman' meant, you wouldn't be using it in an argument. Well, stop beating the poor guy up. Even in my strongest example I drew the line a 2 point modifier, which you then used in your circumstance modifier argument. Circumstance modifiers are usually 2 points, right? Your having a fit over my justification for someone being -2CHA because their face face has warts or scars while giving away -2 circumstance penalties for the same thing. If the circumstance penalty modifies more die rolls then it doesn't (likely in the case of CHA) it is an attribute.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:22 AM	Yeah it does. There are quite a few CHA based actions that have no effect on anyone that cannot view you. Actually, the vast majority of Cha-based actions that function perfectly well if you're invisible, or hidden, or speaking across a great distance. Nothing says that you lose your Cha bonus to Diplomacy if you're invisible, or making your Diplomacy check using telepathic communication. And, of course, no one has to be looking at you at all to gain bonus spells as a sorcerer or make a magic item work with UMD. If appearance is only a "part" of Charisma then this part should logically disappear whenever you use Cha in any of the many, many, many situations in which Cha has nothing to do with socializing with other humanoids. It doesn't. Therefore Cha doesn't really have anything to do with being looked at. The Cha-based abilities that are utterly dependent on sight are usually *not* actually "Cha-based" -- that is, they're SLAs or mental (Su) abilities, which are *always* Cha-based by default because monsters without spellcasting classes act like sorcerers when it comes to determining DCs. But this is just as true for a Solar using earthquake as it is when he uses mass charm monster.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:29 AM	Dromites...Thri-kreen... Have you seen pixies? Small elves that play pranks and sound like wee screech bugs. CHA bonus. Dryads? a tree spirit (talk about wooden personality). listed avg 18 CHA (if that confused you look at most pictures of dryads and add 2 with 2).
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:29 AM	Well, stop beating the poor guy up. Even in my strongest example I drew the line a 2 point modifier, which you then used in your circumstance modifier argument. Circumstance modifiers are usually 2 points, right? Your having a fit over my justification for someone being -2CHA because their face face has warts or scars while giving away -2 circumstance penalties for the same thing. If the circumstance penalty modifies more die rolls then it doesn't (likely in the case of CHA) it is an attribute. Err... no. Cha modifies Sorcerers' bonus spells per day. This is a far, far more important use of Cha, for that character, than how much Cha modifies a Fighter's Intimidate check. Just as a Fighter cares much more about how her Str affects her attack roll than a Wizard cares about how it affects his untrained Jump checks. Because each attribute covers such a range of things, and because some things are *far* more important for some characters than others, you can never say that a circumstance penalty to one kind of roll you make with an attribute is the *same* as a penalty to the attribute itself. Notice that the circlet of persuasion is *not* the same item as a cloak of charisma, precisely because changing your modifier on all Cha-based skill checks is still a very far cry from changing your Cha. A Sorcerer has almost no use for a circlet of persuasion at all. Also, I hate to nitpick, but a -2 to the Charisma *modifier* on a skill check is a -4 to Charisma itself. Just as a -1 Cha modifier is a Cha 8, not a Cha -1. In any case, I would never just say wens and warts are -2 circumstance penalty to Cha-based skill checks across the board. UMD checks don't care about how your face looks. Diplomacy checks only *generally* do, but maybe you're negotiating with a guy who had warts on his face when he was a teenager and knows how bad it feels, and gains sympathy with you because of it. I don't see how it applies to Bluff checks at all -- sure, if I'm disgusted by you I might be less inclined to *sympathize* with you, but not necessarily to find you less believable (and, in fact, there's an effect where if I find talking to you unpleasant for some reason, I may be *more* inclined to simply say I accept your story to get rid of you -- the canonical "6-second reaction" of Bluff that you can get even if your story is completely unbelievable, something that skilled liars and panhandlers and actors and such exploit a *lot* to get what they want). Disguise checks -- what if I'm trying to disguise myself as someone who also has wens on his face? Won't I be better off than if I had perfectly smooth skin and had to create artificial wens? And Intimidate -- aren't people *more* likely to find me intimidating if I have horrible scars on my face? In other words, every single one of these depends on *circumstance*. Many people may be prejudiced against the ugly, but some may simply not care, and a few may even be prejudiced in their favor. Sometimes being ugly *helps* when you're trying to tell a certain story or pull off a certain con. It all varies with circumstance, which is the fundamental reason a circumstance penalty is called a circumstance penalty -- it only applies when the DM says it applies, and doesn't change your character's essential stats.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:31 AM	If appearance is only a "part" of Charisma then this part should logically disappear whenever you use Cha in any of the many, many, many situations in which Cha has nothing to do with socializing with other humanoids. It doesn't. Therefore Cha doesn't really have anything to do with being looked at. Someone of appealing looks would probably be more confident. Cause ,effect, it doesn't matter because it is still there.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:35 AM	Okay, first of all, coming to your job looking like a crack head imposes a *circumstance* penalty on the Bluff (I assume the Bluff in this case is "I really do work here"?). Lying doesn't have to be lying to look respectable. It can be the exact *opposite*, in fact. What if I've disguised myself as a homeless person and am walking past you mumbling "Spare some change, sir? I've fallen on hard times", despite the fact that I am not actually a grimy homeless person but am actually a glamorous KGB spy? Would you still say you'd be more likely to believe my lie if I looked more attractive? Er, I'm a bouncer. I care a lot less what you say then what you are.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:37 AM	Have you seen pixies? Small elves that play pranks and sound like wee screech bugs. CHA bonus. Er, yeah. So? This proves my point, not yours, since that's hardly a sexy image. Dryads? a tree spirit (talk about wooden personality). listed avg 18 CHA (if that confused you look at most pictures of dryads and add 2 with 2). Err, aside from your pun about "talk about wooden personality", all fey are supposed to have a very powerful force of personality, an almost mystically creative, energetic, seductive aura about them. Do you actually think that dryads are supposed to be wooden and boring? Because they're portrayed as the opposite, both in Greek mythology and in D&D -- they're mystically alluring, because they represent Nature in all her beauty. In any case: notice that no one in their right mind would actually want to have sex with a pixie, and yet they get a Cha bonus. They're tremendously *charming* and *cute* and, yes, full of energy and life, but they're far from sexy -- hell, you can't even actually see the shapes of their bodies in their most common appearances, when they appear as flickering balls of light in the distance in the darkness. "Force of personality" just means *force* of personality. It doesn't mean you direct that force in a firm, steady manner. It doesn't mean you're a leader, necessarily. It just means that you're a very interesting person -- that your emotions come across to people and people feel like your emotions matter, that you cut through their barriers and affect them. It's *easier to imagine* this with people we find physically attractive, which is why illustrations often take the standard high-Cha races and portray them as pretty. But, again: Dromites are weird-looking ant things. A Formian Queen is an even weirder-looking ant thing with Cha 21. Ghosts. Mind flayers. Great wyrm black dragons. There are more counterexamples here than there are examples, and the examples really are easy to explain away as the illustrators wanting to portray invisible allure and instead portraying visible attractiveness, because that's easier.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:40 AM	Er, I'm a bouncer. I care a lot less what you say then what you are. Okay. Who gets let in more easily, the nice-looking kid who stammers and looks away from you when speaking and tries to keep to the shadows, or the tall, confident, steady-voiced and steady-eyed dude who walks up to you exactly like he belongs there and has been there every day of his life, but happens to have a horribly ugly face? After all, "looking like a crackhead" has *way* more to do with how you act and how you sound and how you dress than it does with how your face is shaped. Crackheads are crackheads because of the way they slur their speech and the way their clothes and bodies are unwashed, but they can have boobs as big and faces as pretty as anyone else. Note that this doesn't change my original point. Maybe a club is known for being exclusive to the young, hip, beautiful people, and therefore physical attractiveness imposes a circumstance penalty on Bluffing to be *let into the club*. Big whoop. What if you're not at your job, and someone tries to Bluff you into thinking they're a homeless person? Or Bluff you into thinking that they're single rather than married? Or Bluff you into thinking that they have a nice apartment you should rent? Bluff is *not* "Bluff your way past the bouncer", it's Bluff *in general*. Just as Disguise is *not* "Disguise yourself as the handsome prince", but Disguise *in general*. You frequently *don't* want to draw attention to yourself as a tremendously sexually attractive person, depending on what you're after. I don't know about you, but if someone's really handsome in the used-car salesman sort of way, I immediately kind of distrust him -- my prejudices are sometimes *against* pretty people. This is partly because I don't experience any natural attraction to attractive-looking men, being a heterosexual male, and actually experience a little bit of gut envy and resentment towards guys who are really attractive (and, for other reasons, toward girls who are really attractive). This is a real phenomenon, and it's part of why this "Hot girls get everything they want" crap isn't really true. (Hot girls don't get everything they want from other girls, or gay guys, or straight guys who deeply resent hot girls for rejecting them or for tempting them into immoral lusts or simply because they're raging misogynists.)
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:40 AM	Also, I hate to nitpick, but a -2 to the Charisma *modifier* on a skill check is a -4 to Charisma itself. Just as a -1 Cha modifier is a Cha 8, not a Cha -1. So? Granting a circumstance modifier for being pretty is just as large a modifier if it puts a 2 point difference on the die roll. If I had a DM that gave me a free circumstance bonus for being attractive relative to my culture in social dealings, what would stop me from gaining it permanently by limiting my activity to the same environs?
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:42 AM	Er, yeah. So? This proves my point, not yours, since that's hardly a sexy image. My point was it was the image. An elf (almost universally depicted as pretty) and cute-sized. Overcoming the 'actual' traits of irritating personality.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:47 AM	Someone of appealing looks would probably be more confident. Cause ,effect, it doesn't matter because it is still there. Cause and effect matters a lot. I'm perfectly willing to accept that, among human beings, people who match their culture's standards for physical attractiveness have higher Cha because of greater self-confidence and a corresponding greater willingness to dive into social interaction. And that among dromites the same holds true for having nice antennae or a shiny carapace. And so on and so forth. But if your appearance is temporarily damaged -- or even permanently damaged, but it happens late in life when you've become mature and your personality has stabilized -- you're not going to lose that self-confidence just because something's changed your appearance, not if you're a *very* Charismatic person who's learned how to handle people. And your Charisma itself is *not* your appearance, but something caused by your appearance -- draining your Charisma means draining that self-confidence and social finesse you acquired because of your appearance, but your appearance itself remains unchanged.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:47 AM	Okay. Who gets let in more easily, the nice-looking kid who stammers and looks away from you when speaking and tries to keep to the shadows, or the tall, confident, steady-voiced and steady-eyed dude who walks up to you exactly like he belongs there and has been there every day of his life, but happens to have a horribly ugly face? After all, "looking like a crackhead" has *way* more to do with how you act and how you sound and how you dress than it does with how your face is shaped. Crackheads are crackheads because of the way they slur their speech and the way their clothes and bodies are unwashed, but they can have boobs as big and faces as pretty as anyone else. I guess crackhead has a local meaning here. It can mean you look like crap on a stick. Since crackheads almost universally do. A 'pretty crackhead' is pretty much an oxymoron :rofl: Try a 'pretty skank' or a 'junk queen'. The kid has problems ,because he 'looks' like a weasel (or, in my colorful vernacular a "punk") Edit (for example of crackhead denoting appearance): "Dang, Steve! What happened to your car? It's all busted up. Did you let it smoke crack?"
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-30-07, 03:49 AM	If the circumstance penalty modifies more die rolls then it doesn't (likely in the case of CHA) it is an attribute. Actually highly unlikely in the case of charisma. Lets break it down: Skills Bluff - Lying/feinting nope, no pretty here. Diplomacy - One could argue this one, but telling people what they want to hear is infinitely more important than being pretty. Disguise - You're actually covering up/altering the pretty! Or even pretending to be someone else. No way in hell this has anything to do with your personal pretty. Gather Information - arguable, but its more about knowing who to ask than people wanting to sex you up. Intimidate - Yes, that facial scar will certainly make you look less threatening. Perform - Unless its dance, it doesn't matter. Use Magic Device - Heh, no chance. Class Features Spellcasting - The forces of arcane power obey you because... your hair is just so awesome. Lay on Hands - I'm going to stop with the sarcastic comments because its like 3am. Divine Grace - Adds your personal 'power' to all your saves. Turn Undead - Most complicated roll you'll ever make, but works on force of personality. Bardic Music - clearly imposing your will on people. Other Most monster SU abilities are based on Con or Cha. Undead (horrible corpses of dead people) sub in Cha for Con for a lot of things. Ghosts even apply it to AC. Whenever you have your 'spirit' drained, it drains your Cha. Dragons, devils and demons (all the ugliest ugmoes this side of tentacles) bust out with 18+ Charisma scores most of the time. When you hit 0 Cha, you go catatonic. Nothing is said about your hair. I guess gaze attacks and Horrific Appearance would count as requiring people to look at you, but most of those kill you or turn you to stone. I'll also note that a Nymph who has had her charisma drained to 1 will still be able to use her Blinding Beauty Su, albiet with a Save DC of 9. The point is that she's still hot enough to blind you with Cha 1. She can't use it at 0 because she's catatonic. Wait -- she can! If she's catatonic and didn't turn off her Blinding Beauty, she still blinds with her hotness at Cha 0.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:50 AM	My point was it was the image. An elf (almost universally depicted as pretty) and cute-sized. Overcoming the 'actual' traits of irritating personality. Who says that irritating personality makes you have a low Cha? Cha doesn't mean "likable". It means having force of personality. Mind flayers are among the least likable creatures in D&D and have one of the highest Cha scores. (They are also, by the way, one of the least sexy-looking creatures in D&D.) Pixies are "annoying". This is because they're full of life and vigor and don't give up on what they do and will get in your face and bother you. This annoys some people. It charms others. What it does do, in general, is make you notice the pixies and be drawn to them in one way or another, so that you can't stop thinking about them, so that they can manipulate you. (And you can manipulate someone just as easily by annoying them and driving them into a fury as you can by making them fall in love with you -- note that a Knight's challenge abilities are Cha-based.) If a pixie were low-Cha, this would make pixies boring, dull, lifeless, incapable of communication, incapable of manipulation, without any great self-motivation or self-awareness. This is the opposite of pixies, as it is the opposite of all fey.
DrWorm 01-30-07, 03:51 AM	Someone of appealing looks would probably be more confident. Cause ,effect, it doesn't matter because it is still there. I would contend that it is probably more often the other way around. I think that confident people more often come off as physically attractive largely due to their confidence. Even in a photgraph a confidant person is able to give a sense of attracivness. I think that confidence and social aptitude are easily the most important factors in determining whether an individual is attractive. we just do not recognize these factors as often as they are subtle and subconcious.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:58 AM	So? Granting a circumstance modifier for being pretty is just as large a modifier if it puts a 2 point difference on the die roll. Yes, but there are many, many, many things Cha affects that have nothing at all to do with being pretty. *Even* if you only count social skill rolls, which are only a subset of Charisma. (Do you really think Intimidate, Disguise, and even Bluff benefit that much from appearance?) If I had a DM that gave me a free circumstance bonus for being attractive relative to my culture in social dealings, what would stop me from gaining it permanently by limiting my activity to the same environs? The fact that your adventure would take you out of those environs into other places, and ignoring the adventure hook to stay home would mean turning your back on whatever quest you'd been given? It's the DM's job to make the game into a game with a goal rather than just letting you live out an easy life, isn't it? I would never give you a circumstance bonus just for being in "your culture" anyway. Even in one culture, each individual's idea of attractiveness differs at least a little. More importantly, the way the culture's ideas of attractiveness *affects* them differs a lot. Being a really hot guy is going to have a much different effect on a straight guy or gay girl than it's going to have on a straight girl or gay guy. (For that matter, it probably has a different effect on the straight girl than the gay guy.) Some people just don't care that much about hotness and won't change their behavior to accommodate it, while others are horndogs who are embarrassingly easy to mess with if you have a pretty face. And, as I noted, some people *resent* attractiveness and take it as a sign of shallowness or untrustworthiness. (Yeah, hot girls get what they want in some situations. Try being a hot girl and trying to get a certain kind of guy to take you seriously in a business negotiation, though.) The circumstance bonus is just that -- a bonus based on the very specific circumstances you're in. The DM gets to decide how being pretty affects the way people see you. Just as he gets to decide how being upper-class affects the way people see you. (Some people immediately respect those who have wealth -- others immediately resent and despise them.) Or the way being disabled and having to walk with a cane makes them see you. Or the way being tall, or short, or of a certain race, or speaking with a certain accent affects things -- these things *always vary immensely with the individual*.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 03:58 AM	But if your appearance is temporarily damaged -- or even permanently damaged, but it happens late in life when you've become mature and your personality has stabilized -- you're not going to lose that self-confidence just because something's changed your appearance, not if you're a *very* Charismatic person who's learned how to handle people. Easy, if you only had +1 CHA you could let the disfigurement impare your confidence. If you had a +3 it wouldn't effect it much (like, now your a +2).
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:59 AM	Easy, if you only had +1 CHA you could let the disfigurement impare your confidence. If you had a +3 it wouldn't effect it much (like, now your a +2). ...Er, the difference between +1 and +0 is exactly the same as the difference between +3 and +2. Anyway, it doesn't matter -- by RAW there is no effect of disfigurement on Cha, at all. If there were I'd probably rule it as a change in attitude as you describe it, not as a change in appearance itself -- and as with everything else there'd be some people who'd let a change in appearance change their attitude and others who wouldn't.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-30-07, 03:59 AM	How does 'looking like a crackhead' translate to across the board unattractiveness rather than the rather specific 'crackhead' look? Would you likewise not listen to a man that had, say a bad surgical scar across his forehead?
Palin the Wizard 01-30-07, 04:04 AM	The only actual connection physical attractiveness has to Charisma is that a high Charisma character usually has it and a low Charisma character usually doesn't.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 04:50 AM	How does 'looking like a crackhead' translate to across the board unattractiveness rather than the rather specific 'crackhead' look? huh? if it looks like a crackhead and is a crackhead is equally ugly. it does not refer to a specific drug of choice. just the despondant condition of advanced atrophy. i guess. you ever seen a crackhead?
MindLich 01-30-07, 09:53 AM	If you think that a the better the charisma the better your looks, you are one strange person :P . I don't think Demons and Dragons are appealing :confused: , do you? Charisma is a cop out.
Old Sparky 01-30-07, 11:37 AM	Yes, Charisma is a mental stat. You can use it to describe someone who is ugly or beautiful as a measure of self-esteem. Likewise, you can go against appearance or explain things like high Charisma monsters as self-esteem regardless of physical appearance.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 11:40 AM	If you think that a the better the charisma the better your looks, you are one strange person :P . I don't think Demons and Dragons are appealing :confused: , do you? Charisma is a cop out. No :P The better your charisma ,the better reaction you can get based on looks. Whether that reaction is 'wow,scary!' or 'wow,striking!' is usually apparent enough for most people.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-30-07, 11:51 AM	No :P The better your charisma ,the better reaction you can get based on looks. Whether that reaction is 'wow,scary!' or 'wow,striking!' is usually apparent enough for most people. Therefore, low Charisma people aren't ugly, they're plain.
Solik 01-30-07, 12:05 PM	Ugly =/= scary.
Dan Hemmens 01-30-07, 12:19 PM	According to the SRD So, a very low charisma should be the antithesis of the above - or, more specifically, maybe the following?: 1. Low force of personality (i.e., demure). 2. Low persauviveness (i.e., no leadership skills). 3. Low personal magnetism (i.e., repellent). 4. Low physical attractiveness (i.e., a poop-covered person that has rotted teeth). But how to make sure that this is properly role-played by your player that is wondering about guidelines? What does this mean to you as a DM? How would you advise someone that is looking for role-playing this low of a charisma - but also has a fairly high intelligence and wisdom - and is by no means stupid or foolish? :dragon: **** My personal views on this are somewhat controversial, so take them or leave them. What I would say is, do not try to play a character who is simultaneously demure, repellent, lacking in leadership skills, and ugly. That's just an absurd caricature, not a real person. Pick one or two of those routes, and go with them. Otherwise they conflict utterly. You can't be both demure and abrasive, you can't be both monstrously ugly and utterly forgettable.
Doc225 01-30-07, 01:04 PM	"My character has a low charisma because people have told him he's ugly and stupid his whole life. He is actually really smart, but is rather unnatractive, so people in his area didn't bother to listen to him. He has an older brother who is handsome and is able to use that to his advantage. As a result my chaacter became more withdrawn becase he figures no one likes him because he is "ugly" To me, it's a simple matter of causality. Low charisma doesn't cause someone to be ugly, but being ugly can cause a low charisma. A high charisma doesn't cause someone to be pretty, but being pretty can cause someone to have a high charisma. I think they can correlate, but i don't think they have to. Maybe the pretty girl is used to getting things from the boys in her town, but when she gets out in the real world, she realizes that she has to do more than rely on her looks. Attractive, but low cha. Or the "ugly" kid realized at a young age how to get pople to look past his appearance and see who he really is. Ugly, but high cha. I relate charisma to a sense of self worth. Confidence in oneself. I know people who are very vocal and seem confident, but are really just blowing their own horns to be noticed, these folks would have a low charisma, IMO. I know quiet people, who seem shy and unsure, but it's realy just that they only speak when they want to. When they do speak, they are very funy, and tend to get good reaction from everyone they talk to. People also tend to look to them in a serious situation, even when the loudmouth is spouting off about something.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-30-07, 01:39 PM	Ugly =/= scary. Ugly = striking.
GoriceXII 01-30-07, 01:46 PM	Another couple of thoughts: the pretty girl could have initially good reactions but in fact be a completely awful person once you get to know her. In my game I rolled randomly to determine traits of some of the important NPCs where I wasn't sure what they'd be like. One wizard had a really high intelligence but an average wisdom and a really low charisma. (4!) I thought about that and decided that he was a person with few social skills, who had mostly spent his time intensely studying magic. He is the epitome of the arrogant genius who regards everyone who doesn't do magic as an oaf, who believes his importance is paramount and who is impatient with people less intelligent than himself. I make a point of offending the players with him at least once every time they meet him. ("I know that" "O gods, another person who thinks she's a magician." ) There are lots of fun ways you can use charisma.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:22 PM	My personal views on this are somewhat controversial, so take them or leave them. What I would say is, do not try to play a character who is simultaneously demure, repellent, lacking in leadership skills, and ugly. That's just an absurd caricature, not a real person. Pick one or two of those routes, and go with them. Otherwise they conflict utterly. You can't be both demure and abrasive, you can't be both monstrously ugly and utterly forgettable. Or, rather than seeing Cha as a big giant collection of unrelated ideas (like "ugliness" and "abrasiveness" and "shyness"), see what's *linked* between these ideas and go with what the common factor is. It's not that low-Cha characters are always ugly -- it's that when a certain low-Cha character wants people to find her attractive, people instead see her as ugly. When one low-Cha character wants to be smooth and forceful, he instead comes off as abrasive. When another low-Cha character wants to be friendly and outgoing, she instead comes off as shy. In other words, Charisma is the measure of how well you can project your emotions to other people. It's the measure of how much *wanting* to be attractive translates to *actually* being attractive -- how much *wanting* someone to do something translates to *them* wanting to do it -- how much *wanting* to be seen as a great leader translates to *actually* being a great leader. Low Cha is the inability to translate internal desires and emotional states into external, social ones. You can roleplay this manifesting in any number of ways -- the guy who can't help acting like a jerk even when he wants to be nice, the guy who can't speak up even when he has something really important to say, the lady who can't help but seem clumsy and awkward no matter how hard she tries. But low Cha, mechanically, always comes off as trying to focus your will on something and not being able to do it -- people don't see you the way you want to be seen, because at some fundamental level you don't understand your own emotional states and how to project them.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:25 PM	Another couple of thoughts: the pretty girl could have initially good reactions but in fact be a completely awful person once you get to know her. Cha has nothing to do with being a good person. You can be as Evil-aligned as you like and have a high Cha. The point of Cha is that you can come off well on initial reactions no matter what kind of person you actually are on the inside (something that isn't determined by stats). In my game I rolled randomly to determine traits of some of the important NPCs where I wasn't sure what they'd be like. One wizard had a really high intelligence but an average wisdom and a really low charisma. (4!) I thought about that and decided that he was a person with few social skills, who had mostly spent his time intensely studying magic. He is the epitome of the arrogant genius who regards everyone who doesn't do magic as an oaf, who believes his importance is paramount and who is impatient with people less intelligent than himself. I make a point of offending the players with him at least once every time they meet him. ("I know that" "O gods, another person who thinks she's a magician." ) The thing is that there are people who can act like this and still have people admire them, want to be their friend, fall in love with them, see them as fascinating and bizarre. They can be hated but in that fascinated love/hate way. Other people do it, of course, and just end up purely and unalloyedly despised. That's the difference between the high-Cha jerk and the low-Cha jerk. (Just to pick a popular example, Dr. House on the TV show House, MD is the foremost example in American media right now of the charismatic jackass.)
ArcTan 01-30-07, 03:26 PM	No :P The better your charisma ,the better reaction you can get based on looks. Whether that reaction is 'wow,scary!' or 'wow,striking!' is usually apparent enough for most people. ...It sounds like you've jumped all the way to the other side of the fence, at this point.
_SIN_ 01-30-07, 03:37 PM	Why don't you look it up in a dictionary if you are so confused? here's one definition: Personal magnetism or charm Nothing about looks. Jeez, the amount of good looking women with attitude issues are countless! They may well be strikingly/stunningly/shockingly beautiful, but that doesn't mean I'd automatically like them. I may automatically want to 'give' them 'something', but that's not based on her charisma. That's usually based on bra size!...;)
Solik 01-30-07, 03:41 PM	Ugly = striking. I don't think you're using the same definition for that word that he is using.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-30-07, 03:46 PM	I don't think you're using the same definition for that word that he is using. Striking = distinctive, standing out Ugly is distinctive and stands out Therefore, ugly = striking.
CharlieRock 01-30-07, 04:02 PM	To me, it's a simple matter of causality. Low charisma doesn't cause someone to be ugly, but being ugly can cause a low charisma. A high charisma doesn't cause someone to be pretty, but being pretty can cause someone to have a high charisma. :w00t: ...It sounds like you've jumped all the way to the other side of the fence, at this point. I was always on my side. Maybe the fence moved? Striking = distinctive, standing out Ugly is distinctive and stands out Therefore, ugly = striking. Striking is very attractive. So attractive that you get dumbstruck looking at it.
Old Sparky 01-30-07, 04:15 PM	Why don't you look it up in a dictionary if you are so confused? here's one definition: Personal magnetism or charm Nothing about looks. Jeez, the amount of good looking women with attitude issues are countless! They may well be strikingly/stunningly/shockingly beautiful, but that doesn't mean I'd automatically like them. I may automatically want to 'give' them 'something', but that's not based on her charisma. That's usually based on bra size!...;) That's a measure of someone knowing how to use their looks, which can be considered charisma. There are plenty of good looking women who couldn't get people to just give them stuff because of their looks... because its not in their personality to flaunt what they've got. Of course, there are less attractive women or those who don't have significant assets to work with, but they know how to use what they've got to be more charismatic. Charisma isn't a measure of physical appeal and/or ugliness... but it can factor in to the big picture.
Dunsel 01-30-07, 05:26 PM	I game (as a player) with a 1/2 orc sporting a 4 charisma! He gave his character a course, rough voice. He is loud, ugly, rude, and has a thing for snot. :eek: We negotiate with him in another room! He is also LG!
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-30-07, 05:45 PM	Charisma and attractiveness don't have to correlate; in some cases someone is horrendously ugly but amazingly powerful, such as the phantom in Phantom of the Opera.
Dan Hemmens 01-30-07, 05:55 PM	Charisma and attractiveness don't have to correlate; in some cases someone is horrendously ugly but amazingly powerful, such as the phantom in Phantom of the Opera. Of course the Phantom also shunned human society and would have loathed the idea of speaking in public. He was a mess of contradictions, Charisma-wise.
_SIN_ 01-30-07, 06:27 PM	I think the best definition of charisma should be 'likeability'. Whether you like or (dislike) someone. It may be because of looks, demeanor, personality or a combination. I say demeanor as it's how one judges another without having to 'know' the person.
CorrinAvatan 01-30-07, 07:49 PM	Therefore, low Charisma people aren't ugly, they're plain. No, that's not it at all. If you read the D&D book "The Book of Erotic Fantasy", it states specifically that Charisma has NOTHING TO DO WITH APPEARANCE. Charisma is the ability of the character to influence other characters. It may be because they are amazingly attractive, or it may be because they're such a smooth talker that they could convince someone standing in the rain that it is a remarkably dry day today. That's why in the book of Erotic Fantasy, which deals specifically with sex and eroticism in a D&D campaign, has you role a seperate stat for Appearance, the physical looks of your character. Even in the DM manual, it states that your character can look like whatever you want them to look like, no matter WHAT their charisma score is. A good example of people in real life who had high charisma, but didn't look very attractive, are people like Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Lenin, or heck, even Hitler would be considered as having high CHA scores, but definitely were NOT attractive in any real way. Having low charisma means that the character has a difficult time getting other people to do what they want them to do, either because they have such a weak personality that it is difficult for them to influence others, or because they have something that gets in the way of manipulating others. Now, this CAN be because they're ugly as heck, or it can be because of a speech impediment, or because they have problems getting ideas across to others, or because they have no interpersonal skills (not that they're antisocial, they're just not able to inspire people at all).
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-30-07, 08:12 PM	No, that's not it at all. If you read the D&D book "The Book of Erotic Fantasy", it states specifically that Charisma has NOTHING TO DO WITH APPEARANCE. I agree with you, if you bothered to read. Also, BoED is not DnD.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-30-07, 08:16 PM	I agree with you, if you bothered to read. Also, BoED is not DnD. And neither is the BoEF, which he was talking about :p
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-30-07, 08:22 PM	And neither is the BoEF, which he was talking about :p Yeah, that. Stupid "D" being next to the "F".
_SIN_ 01-30-07, 08:55 PM	Regardless, he's right! And why the hell did you bother BUYING BoEF anyway? Next time, donate your money to a worthy cause instead!...
High Octane 01-30-07, 08:56 PM	BoEF is not core. Its not even a supplement. Its third party. It gives the OPTION to separate physical beauty from Charisma. In reality Charisma is abstract, and its personal preference as to how that abstract is fulfilled. What makes you charismatic is rather simply fluff. House isnt really charismatic. He is only charming to the audience. (Love that show by the way) The actor is charismatic. His real voice actually has a thick British accent in reality I think, or am I misinformed? A persons looks do affect their charisma a lot of the time. They are usually striking. Not necessarily attractive, but striking. You wouldnt necessarily want to go to bed with them, but they make you want to listen. In many ways, being too attractive will actually hinder certain aspects of charisma. It makes you kind of hard to be taken seriously if the other person keeps spilling their eyes into your cleavage/lap.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 09:38 PM	Of course the Phantom also shunned human society and would have loathed the idea of speaking in public. He was a mess of contradictions, Charisma-wise. Whether you choose to be a social person or not has nothing to do with Cha. Cha has no connection to your *desire* to interact with others, just the degree of impact you have on others. In fact, an antisocial high-Cha character is having an impact on others just as much, sometimes, as a social high-Cha character, just in a different way. (You can't argue that the Phantom didn't want to have an impact on people -- the whole social withdrawal was to force people to be impacted by him on his own terms.)
ArcTan 01-30-07, 09:41 PM	BoEF is not core. Its not even a supplement. Its third party. It gives the OPTION to separate physical beauty from Charisma. In reality Charisma is abstract, and its personal preference as to how that abstract is fulfilled. What makes you charismatic is rather simply fluff. House isnt really charismatic. He is only charming to the audience. (Love that show by the way) The actor is charismatic. His real voice actually has a thick British accent in reality I think, or am I misinformed? I somehow doubt he'd get away with the things he does in the show if we weren't supposed to be assuming some bleedthrough between Hugh Laurie the actor's powerful internal charisma and House the character's. And yes, Hugh Laurie is British in real life. He's also not much like House -- Hugh Laurie in interviews and such is a much less compelling individual than House the character is. Part of this is Hugh Laurie toning down the intensity of his presence when he's not performing, but part of this is also the manipulation the show puts on how the character is seen by the audience to -- I think purposely -- magnify his charisma. A persons looks do affect their charisma a lot of the time. They are usually striking. Not necessarily attractive, but striking. You wouldnt necessarily want to go to bed with them, but they make you want to listen. In many ways, being too attractive will actually hinder certain aspects of charisma. It makes you kind of hard to be taken seriously if the other person keeps spilling their eyes into your cleavage/lap. Yeah. Really I'd say this is mostly a matter of how you carry yourself -- and, to a degree, how you choose to present yourself (matters of dress and posture and so on). It is still really a mental stat.
ArcTan 01-30-07, 09:44 PM	I think the best definition of charisma should be 'likeability'. Whether you like or (dislike) someone. It may be because of looks, demeanor, personality or a combination. I say demeanor as it's how one judges another without having to 'know' the person. No, not really... Cha benefits Intimidate checks, which aren't about being "liked" at all. Cha is what allows people who want to be liked to get people to like them. But people aren't always out to be liked, and many high-Cha people prefer to get what they want in different ways. It takes just as much Charisma to get what you want by being feared as it does by being liked, usually -- and it's possible to get what you want by being hated, or pitied.
CharlieRock 01-31-07, 01:21 AM	In many ways, being too attractive will actually hinder certain aspects of charisma. Tell me about it, sheesh. :rolleyes: Yeah. Really I'd say this is mostly a matter of how you carry yourself -- and, to a degree, how you choose to present yourself (matters of dress and posture and so on). It is still really a mental stat. CHA is a mental stat, but it can build on physical in a limited amount. Like DEX, with dodging. You have to rapidly think about where an impact won't happen and be there. Very limited occassion for a blur in the line of mental/physical. But, it was there. I guess thats why monks can blur the distinction between them well enough to add their WIS bonus.
ArcTan 01-31-07, 03:20 AM	CHA is a mental stat, but it can build on physical in a limited amount. Like DEX, with dodging. You have to rapidly think about where an impact won't happen and be there. Very limited occassion for a blur in the line of mental/physical. But, it was there. Actually, since all Dex involves movement and therefore involves the firing of neurons, if "involves the nervous system" is what "mental" means to you, Dex is always a mental stat. Of course, that's not what "mental" means to D&D. Dex involves only the lower part of the brain, and always involves the brain controlling the body. It can be demonstrated by various kinds of bodies with various kinds of rudimentary or nonexistent brains as long as there's *some* control mechanism that makes the body move. By contrast, things can have a Cha score without a body at all, and can use their Cha score while interacting through purely abstract means that have nothing to do with body. (Telepathy, for example.) I would say that just as Disable Device requires you to use your fingers, but is really an exercise of the higher reasoning functions, Intimidate requires you to use your face, posture and voice but is really an exercise of your brain's social reasoning functions. I guess thats why monks can blur the distinction between them well enough to add their WIS bonus. Adding a mental stat to AC implies having such extreme mental control of the body that you can overcome raw reflex (your Dex score), that's all.
CharlieRock 01-31-07, 03:30 AM	Adding a mental stat to AC implies having such extreme mental control of the body that you can overcome raw reflex (your Dex score), that's all. Your not 'overcoming' anything. Havn't you noticed that when you are awake and alert (mental and physical states) you can dodge things alot easier? Monks have a heightened level of alertness extraordinary to their class. It's a synergy of spotting trouble and moving to avoid it. I said Charisma can build off of physical appearance. You just said it doesn't have to. Why does one preclude the other? It doesn't. :pbbbtt:
ArcTan 01-31-07, 04:40 AM	Your not 'overcoming' anything. Havn't you noticed that when you are awake and alert (mental and physical states) you can dodge things alot easier? Monks have a heightened level of alertness extraordinary to their class. It's a synergy of spotting trouble and moving to avoid it. Well, yeah, but the fact that only Monks can do it in D&D is why it's something special -- a feature of Monks' preternatural training -- and not assumed to be part of what everyone does. There's some kind of assumption that most people's raw reaction time remains more or less constant (not entirely true in real life, but a decent assumption for D&D terms) and it's that reaction time that I see as the basis of the Dex score, at least for the functions of Dex bonus to AC, Dex bonus to Initiative, and Dex bonus to Reflex saves. Monks adding a Wis bonus to AC has something to do with having a purely *mental* focus that artificially enhances reaction time, but only for the sake of the physical attacks that Monks specifically train to defend against. (I.e. they don't add their Wis modifier to things like Tumble checks or Reflex saves.) I said Charisma can build off of physical appearance. You just said it doesn't have to. Why does one preclude the other? It doesn't. :pbbbtt: Well, but they're different. If Cha builds off of physical appearance, then physical appearance itself isn't Cha. Just as Dex building off of a slender body doesn't mean that you actually have to have a slender body to have a high Dex, or that slenderness is "part of" the Dex score. The main thing is that becoming purely physically prettier doesn't increase your base Cha score at all.
CharlieRock 01-31-07, 04:57 AM	Well, yeah, but the fact that only Monks can do it in D&D is why it's something special -- a feature of Monks' preternatural training -- and not assumed to be part of what everyone does. Everyone does do it. Monks just do it better. Lots better. Just as Dex building off of a slender body doesn't mean that you actually have to have a slender body to have a high Dex, or that slenderness is "part of" the Dex score. No ,but you can describe a character as being slender and imply that it means dexterity of a sort. Charisma is used in attempts to influence others. You going to say you can't think of a single way appearance can effect that?
HerbalTea 01-31-07, 05:02 AM	If you've read the Belgariad and the Mallorean, I would recommend making Beldin: never bathes, eats whatever is at hand (or stuck to him), hunchback, disfigured, insults everyone as terms of endearment, but he has a beautiful soul. + on the outside doesn't seem to care much about anything ("Belding ignores the weather most of the time" - spoken by Belgarath) Just as a side note: Don't let/make a character as strong as Beldin. Ever. :)
Dunsel 01-31-07, 11:00 AM	Hugh Laurie (sp?) aka Dr. House was previously in the Black Adder series with Rowan Atkinson.
Zumarai 01-31-07, 11:16 AM	...Jade Goody?
Callista 01-31-07, 11:36 AM	I think you should just make him ultra-nerdy. That's enough for a CHA 5. I come out as CHA 7-ish on all the tests, and that's just for being an introverted, moderately overweight girl who doesn't worry about appearance beyond just being clean. That, and Asperger Syndrome (google "the Geek Syndrome") is enough to put my CHA in the negative modifiers, easily. Just think of the really nerdy, smart people you know, give your character poor hygiene and oily hair on top of it, and you've got it. Anyway, I think it'd be fun to RP a geek in a fantasy environment.
Chark the Shark 02-05-07, 04:23 PM	I agree with the 'geek' description but I have also met people with quite the low CHA but NOT ugly or nerdy. How about the person who asks inappropriate questions and the most awkward times? Stares at parts of the body continuously while in public? Farts in the elevator? Picks up on your date when you are sitting RIGHT THERE? Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Use Magik Device are all examples where CHA comes into play. These are all interactions of some sort, mostly social. CHA = the social interaction stat