Character Int vs Your Int. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character Int vs Your Int. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
VonZylo
11-06-05, 06:35 PM First I hope this is the right spot for this. (If not just say something so I don't do it again.)
I hosting a campaing and an interesting dilemma came up. I have a gnome in the party who's character is really smart and wise. They ran into an efreeti who posed them a riddle which they needed to answer to get by. I let the characters talk it among themselves to figure it out.
Then the gnome player said "can I make an intellegence check to figure it out?" I said no, because it one of thoses things you just got to figure out. He made a good point and said his gnome character proably would figure it out. We argue over this a bit and I finally rule no. My Question is should I have allowed him to do this? (It would of made a bit of a difference has they didn't get the riddle.)
nissir2000
11-06-05, 06:41 PM Perhaps you should see the irony of your sig.

If the average intellegence of a human is 10 in D&D that would mean their IQ was around 100. I have played wizards with int scores of 30 ish, how do you roleplay someone that is smarter then anyone on the planet? Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and go with that. With riddles I try to make the players figure it out, if all else fails make the roll. It might cheese things a bit, but honestly the character might be smarter then the player.
twad
11-06-05, 06:43 PM i dunno, maybe give the smart one some small "advices" for the riddle.
Eightbitmage
11-06-05, 07:30 PM Even if you don't want to just give him the answer, at the very least give him an INT check to get some clues. Maybe in advance write down clues starting at a high DC int check, and then have everyone roll. Anyone who rolls high gets to see some clues.

But yes, I believe he should have at least gotten something. If you put a giant metal door in the PCs way and the guy with 24 str tried to open it, would you let him roll, or tell him his PC can do it if he can do it IRL?
Kesuk2k5
11-06-05, 08:07 PM Riddles seem to cause this problem often, huh?

Riddles are usually either thought upon by the DM as pertaining to the game world or session. If not, they're likely taken from a list of sources, and most sources only seem to use the best or most famous riddles, which some players might remember anyway. In my opinion, the following is a semi-decent (probably not perfect) way to handle this.

1) Use riddles that the players CAN figure out, if the riddle is meant to be a fun part of the session. Otherwise, it's essentially another skill check, which might be more fundamentally sound when applied to something like a code to be deciphered or a lock to pick.

2) If you do want the riddle to be solvable by an ability check, it might be better suited to Wisdom, with Intelligence scores offering some form of bonus (default to +2) to the roll. Intelligence represents memory and analysis of information, but Wisdom is measure of the ability to place the information into new or altered understanding and application. This might be likened to the concept of how some priests in D&D and fantasy (and a number in the real world) enjoy using riddles to communicate their faith or teach lessons about their dogma.
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-06-05, 11:50 PM The character intelligence question always creates a problem. Players will say they should 'know or get everything' because of a high intelligence, and DM's will say it's no fun that way. It realy does take the fun of puzzes and traps and stuff when someone says 'I rolled a 20 so we figure it out and move on'.

My take is that high intelligence does not make you an expert on everything under the sun. There are plenty of dumb smart people. And a lot of smart folks get too locked into what they know, as in what they know is right and everything else is wrong. And smart folks have the additional handycap that they get mad if they can't figure something out. And just because your smart does not make you have any skill in answering a riddle, or doing anything for that matter. People very often miss what us right in front of thier nose.

To use a good and somewhat famous example.....everyone remember that Mars proble that crashed on the planet...because some super smart guy got 'feet' and 'meters' mixed up.......

BT
TLomon
11-07-05, 12:36 AM Personally, I let them roll for it if they want. However, my characters know that if they solve a riddle instead of rolling for their character to solve it, they get an xp bonus.
Nebosuke
11-07-05, 12:51 AM I would say that it depends. If you follow the FAQ guidelines (roughly 10 points of IQ per point of intelligence), int scores above 14 will put you well into the top .5 percentile of the population already. To put that in perspective, a guy with a 15 int might be the one kid in your county that got a perfect score on the SAT, and who graduated summa *** laude even though he wrote his essay assignments in the 5 minutes before the teacher collected them on the day they were due. Int scores at 20+ are untestable. If you lined up one billion people, the character with a 20 int would be the most intelligent by far. To have a character with an int in the 15+ range be stopped by a riddle is either ridiculously out-of-character, or the riddle is likely to stump the combined efforts of your local mensa chapter. Even the idea that a riddle is supposed to challenge your players instead of their characters is metagaming, but it can also be more fun than a simple dice roll.

In the end, I'd probably allow both. Give the players a couple of minutes to think it over (any more than that and it'll bog down your session unnecessarily), and then give them a dice roll.

Side note: When setting the DCs for a mental stat roll, make sure to give yourself a reality check. Consider the case of a character with an int of 20 (roughly equal to the smartest human ever), and the probability that he'd have of making that DC.
Fates_Jester
11-07-05, 01:37 AM Would you ask a player whose character was much stronger than they are irl to actually get up and bench press a car? Or throw a player whose character has a high con into a pool to see if he can really hold his breath that long?
I hope not. That's why it's called a fantasy game and not real life.

See?
BadCatMan
11-07-05, 03:11 AM I once had a character, a dwarf fighter with a 10 in Int and Wis, locked in a wierd Mordenkainen's Mansion-like thing. There was a strange message on the wall, written in Draconic, which he couldn't speak, but had heard translated earlier. There was door, with a keypad, with numbered buttons.

I had no idea how to solve the damn puzzle, and my character had no idea either. I and my character tried that keypad dozens of times, with no result. I even tried the brute force method of tapping out every single combination (which estimated would only take 9 hours). The DM wouldn't let him out until I'd worked out his stupid puzzle. He wouldn't even let me roll for it.

My character was locked in that damn box for a week of game-time, and nearly an hour in real time (he continued playing with the rest of the party while I struggled with the problem). I was pretty damn annoyed, as you can guess.

Finally, I tried the other brute force method: axe to gadget.

This is why we have Int and Wis scores, and the Diplomacy and Bluff skills, not to mention numerous other rules. These allow people to play characters who are smarter, wiser, or more charismatic than themselves - the entire point of roleplaying. If a DM wants to limit things to only what the players can do, then he'd be better off playing with qualified geniuses, psychiatrists and actors (as well as soldiers and burglars). Because few players will match up with their characters.

Let them think over the problem a bit, and if no-one gets, let them roll. And if the dumb half-orc rolls highest, then its a lot of fun for everyone.
VonZylo
11-07-05, 07:10 AM These are good points. I have one riddle left in this current dungeon, I'll first see if the party can figure it out (and give bonus xp if they get it right). If not I'll just let them roll. If they roll fairly high I'll give them a very good clue, if they roll amazing I'll just give them the answer.

has kesuk said earlier
If you do want the riddle to be solvable by an ability check, it might be better suited to Wisdom, with Intelligence scores offering some form of bonus (default to +2) to the roll. Intelligence represents memory and analysis of information, but Wisdom is measure of the ability to place the information into new or altered understanding and application.

This also makes sense so I'll make it a wisdom check instead (of course the same player also has high wisdom)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
VonZylo 11-06-05, 06:35 PM	First I hope this is the right spot for this. (If not just say something so I don't do it again.) I hosting a campaing and an interesting dilemma came up. I have a gnome in the party who's character is really smart and wise. They ran into an efreeti who posed them a riddle which they needed to answer to get by. I let the characters talk it among themselves to figure it out. Then the gnome player said "can I make an intellegence check to figure it out?" I said no, because it one of thoses things you just got to figure out. He made a good point and said his gnome character proably would figure it out. We argue over this a bit and I finally rule no. My Question is should I have allowed him to do this? (It would of made a bit of a difference has they didn't get the riddle.)
nissir2000 11-06-05, 06:41 PM	Perhaps you should see the irony of your sig. If the average intellegence of a human is 10 in D&D that would mean their IQ was around 100. I have played wizards with int scores of 30 ish, how do you roleplay someone that is smarter then anyone on the planet? Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and go with that. With riddles I try to make the players figure it out, if all else fails make the roll. It might cheese things a bit, but honestly the character might be smarter then the player.
twad 11-06-05, 06:43 PM	i dunno, maybe give the smart one some small "advices" for the riddle.
Eightbitmage 11-06-05, 07:30 PM	Even if you don't want to just give him the answer, at the very least give him an INT check to get some clues. Maybe in advance write down clues starting at a high DC int check, and then have everyone roll. Anyone who rolls high gets to see some clues. But yes, I believe he should have at least gotten something. If you put a giant metal door in the PCs way and the guy with 24 str tried to open it, would you let him roll, or tell him his PC can do it if he can do it IRL?
Kesuk2k5 11-06-05, 08:07 PM	Riddles seem to cause this problem often, huh? Riddles are usually either thought upon by the DM as pertaining to the game world or session. If not, they're likely taken from a list of sources, and most sources only seem to use the best or most famous riddles, which some players might remember anyway. In my opinion, the following is a semi-decent (probably not perfect) way to handle this. 1) Use riddles that the players CAN figure out, if the riddle is meant to be a fun part of the session. Otherwise, it's essentially another skill check, which might be more fundamentally sound when applied to something like a code to be deciphered or a lock to pick. 2) If you do want the riddle to be solvable by an ability check, it might be better suited to Wisdom, with Intelligence scores offering some form of bonus (default to +2) to the roll. Intelligence represents memory and analysis of information, but Wisdom is measure of the ability to place the information into new or altered understanding and application. This might be likened to the concept of how some priests in D&D and fantasy (and a number in the real world) enjoy using riddles to communicate their faith or teach lessons about their dogma.
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-06-05, 11:50 PM	The character intelligence question always creates a problem. Players will say they should 'know or get everything' because of a high intelligence, and DM's will say it's no fun that way. It realy does take the fun of puzzes and traps and stuff when someone says 'I rolled a 20 so we figure it out and move on'. My take is that high intelligence does not make you an expert on everything under the sun. There are plenty of dumb smart people. And a lot of smart folks get too locked into what they know, as in what they know is right and everything else is wrong. And smart folks have the additional handycap that they get mad if they can't figure something out. And just because your smart does not make you have any skill in answering a riddle, or doing anything for that matter. People very often miss what us right in front of thier nose. To use a good and somewhat famous example.....everyone remember that Mars proble that crashed on the planet...because some super smart guy got 'feet' and 'meters' mixed up....... BT
TLomon 11-07-05, 12:36 AM	Personally, I let them roll for it if they want. However, my characters know that if they solve a riddle instead of rolling for their character to solve it, they get an xp bonus.
Nebosuke 11-07-05, 12:51 AM	I would say that it depends. If you follow the FAQ guidelines (roughly 10 points of IQ per point of intelligence), int scores above 14 will put you well into the top .5 percentile of the population already. To put that in perspective, a guy with a 15 int might be the one kid in your county that got a perfect score on the SAT, and who graduated summa *** laude even though he wrote his essay assignments in the 5 minutes before the teacher collected them on the day they were due. Int scores at 20+ are untestable. If you lined up one billion people, the character with a 20 int would be the most intelligent by far. To have a character with an int in the 15+ range be stopped by a riddle is either ridiculously out-of-character, or the riddle is likely to stump the combined efforts of your local mensa chapter. Even the idea that a riddle is supposed to challenge your players instead of their characters is metagaming, but it can also be more fun than a simple dice roll. In the end, I'd probably allow both. Give the players a couple of minutes to think it over (any more than that and it'll bog down your session unnecessarily), and then give them a dice roll. Side note: When setting the DCs for a mental stat roll, make sure to give yourself a reality check. Consider the case of a character with an int of 20 (roughly equal to the smartest human ever), and the probability that he'd have of making that DC.
Fates_Jester 11-07-05, 01:37 AM	Would you ask a player whose character was much stronger than they are irl to actually get up and bench press a car? Or throw a player whose character has a high con into a pool to see if he can really hold his breath that long? I hope not. That's why it's called a fantasy game and not real life. See?
BadCatMan 11-07-05, 03:11 AM	I once had a character, a dwarf fighter with a 10 in Int and Wis, locked in a wierd Mordenkainen's Mansion-like thing. There was a strange message on the wall, written in Draconic, which he couldn't speak, but had heard translated earlier. There was door, with a keypad, with numbered buttons. I had no idea how to solve the damn puzzle, and my character had no idea either. I and my character tried that keypad dozens of times, with no result. I even tried the brute force method of tapping out every single combination (which estimated would only take 9 hours). The DM wouldn't let him out until I'd worked out his stupid puzzle. He wouldn't even let me roll for it. My character was locked in that damn box for a week of game-time, and nearly an hour in real time (he continued playing with the rest of the party while I struggled with the problem). I was pretty damn annoyed, as you can guess. Finally, I tried the other brute force method: axe to gadget. This is why we have Int and Wis scores, and the Diplomacy and Bluff skills, not to mention numerous other rules. These allow people to play characters who are smarter, wiser, or more charismatic than themselves - the entire point of roleplaying. If a DM wants to limit things to only what the players can do, then he'd be better off playing with qualified geniuses, psychiatrists and actors (as well as soldiers and burglars). Because few players will match up with their characters. Let them think over the problem a bit, and if no-one gets, let them roll. And if the dumb half-orc rolls highest, then its a lot of fun for everyone.
VonZylo 11-07-05, 07:10 AM	These are good points. I have one riddle left in this current dungeon, I'll first see if the party can figure it out (and give bonus xp if they get it right). If not I'll just let them roll. If they roll fairly high I'll give them a very good clue, if they roll amazing I'll just give them the answer. has kesuk said earlier If you do want the riddle to be solvable by an ability check, it might be better suited to Wisdom, with Intelligence scores offering some form of bonus (default to +2) to the roll. Intelligence represents memory and analysis of information, but Wisdom is measure of the ability to place the information into new or altered understanding and application. This also makes sense so I'll make it a wisdom check instead (of course the same player also has high wisdom)