Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tricky_bob 05-09-07, 02:22 PM	How do you work out what is a even-ish playing field when you have more than 4 PC's? For example, a party of 6 PC's have levels 12, 11, 11, 11, 10, 10. What would that be equivalent to for a 4 PC party?.... 13, 13, 13, 13 ?? When dealing with large parties, should the DM increase the difficulty of the listed encounters or have PC's at lower levels than indicated in the adventure? In the above example the adventure states that there should be 4 ~13th level PC's, but we have the six I listed. My concern is that when fighting monsters designed for 4 ~13th level PC's, some of the monster abilities are going to be too difficult for lower level PC's to handle, things like SR, AC to overcome and then the PC's ability (or probability) to succeed on their saving throws against the monsters abilities/effects that require a saving throw. Using table 3-1 on page 49 DMG a above average encounter for 4 ~13th level PC's could involve a mixed pair with CR's of 13 & 11 ~ Do you think that the above party of 6 (12, 11, 11, 11, 10 & 10) can keep up with the difficulty of the encounters at this level assuming of course, that there are multiply encounters each day?
PhantomTrain 05-09-07, 02:41 PM	My best advice to you would be to allow the PCs to become as powerful as they might normally, and get a little more creative with your challenges. Yes, a party of six is stronger than a party of four, but remember, not everything increases with hit dice. For example, if you underlevel your players to compensate for there being more of them, then all you're likely to do is get more of your players killed at a time. Imagine a hundred 5-year olds (with weapons and resources appropriate to their 'level') hunting a bear. See? Lots of little ones doesn't quite add up to one big one. After a certain threshold, your encounters will start 1-shotting characters. Sure, there might be more of them to fight on, but the dead ones are still dead. So improvise. Gauge their strength by tossing them a few encounters that you know they'll steamroll. See if they have trouble with enemy spellcasters, with enemy melee, with things immune to crits. I find the CRs in the most recent MMs to be a little low as it is. When in doubt, send two. Or, even better, give that troll a few levels of a base class. Nothing is as devistating as a monster with actual levels behind it. The worst thrashing I ever got was from a 16th level goblin monk. Beat me senseless. So don't worry about it too much. If the first few encounters are just too easy, ramp it up a little until things feel about right. Better to underwhelm the PCs than overwhelm them. The first is just a little unsatisfying. The second can end your game in one combat.
crashlogic 05-09-07, 02:58 PM	In general the CR of an encounter for 6 charaters in a part is the same as for four characters. The penalty for having more characters is that experience is lessened, becaus ethe encounter was easier. However, an encounter only one or two levels about the parties CR should not flatten the whole party, paticularly at the levels you are talking about. Another thing to do with larger parties is to make encounters center around multiple lower CR or mixed Cr encounters, and use the dungeon (or other terrain) to force the party into isolated combats. If the room in the dungeon is too small for the party to all fit, they will have to deal with the encounter with only a portion of the party. Getting the effective portion into the fight then becomes a tactical excercise.
tricky_bob 05-09-07, 03:52 PM	I'm one of the "10's", not the DM! I agree with what you are saying. A level 10 Fighter is going to have a considerably harder time hitting a 30AC monster than a 13th level one. A 10th level Spellcaster is going to have a considerably harder time overcoming high SR than a 13th level one. A CR 13/14 monster is going to make 10th level PC's run away far more often than a 13th level one, etc. etc. I think customizing the encounters is the way to go, with PC's at the level there suppose to be. Having larger numbers, as you say, is going to result in dead PC's.
Return of the Flumph 05-09-07, 03:54 PM	Either raise the CR of your encounters by a point or two, or send 50% percent more monsters, and you're good. Easy as pie.
Empiro 05-09-07, 03:57 PM	The way to challenge larger parties is not to increase the CR of the monsters, but instead to increase the number of lower CR ones. You don't want too many high CR monsters which, if they get a lucky round off, can instantly kill a PC. Having more weaker ones (especially getting a few to come from behind or the flank), means that the part will be dealing with multiple fronts, and that everyone will get a chance to shine.
Tenadros 05-09-07, 03:58 PM	On a related issue, are the companions, familliars etc. included in the cr of the party? I would assume they are but figured it would be wise to ask as my people are "companion" crazy.
devinmdp 05-09-07, 05:13 PM	Use one of the many encounter calculators available online. www.D20srd.org is as good as any. They let you put in the number and levels of PCs and then compare that to monsters and determine the right CR to use. That said, keep in mind that you still need to adjudicate encounters carefully. I run a group of 7-8 PCs and the balancing act is to realize that while the party AS A WHOLE is more powerful than 4 PCs at an equal level, each member of the party is still just as brittle. Thus, you tend to have to go a little easier on single powerful monster encounters but can go more hog wild on encounters with lots of lower CR creatures. In general the CR of an encounter for 6 charaters in a part is the same as for four characters. The penalty for having more characters is that experience is lessened, becaus ethe encounter was easier. That's pretty ridiculous to say. An XP penalty has nothing to do with whether an encounter is challenging to a party. By your logic, it is fine and good to throw a CR 2 encounter at a party of 10th level PCs because they will get so few XP that it all balances out. The fact is, a party of six 8th level PCs is far more capable and powerful as a whole than a party of four 8th level PCs. Devin