Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spaceiscurved 03-02-06, 08:45 PM	I DM a game in which one player is about the smartest guy in the world. his character has a 9 Int. He spends alot of time looking at things online so he will say things like this. "I know that we are fighting a troll. the wizard should cast web in hopes to slow it before casting fireball setting fire to the troll and bypassing its regeneration. Do not attack it in melee except for the fighter who has a flaming sword and the power atk feat." his char should say things like this "lets kill the ugly tall thing" what he hek do i do???????? i dont usually use knowledge checks cuz he already knows it all
Crimson_Concerto 03-02-06, 08:58 PM	That there is metagaming. Just ask him to play in character and not to do it. Assuming he's a reasonable enough person to understand, you should be fine.
Mobar2006 03-02-06, 09:01 PM	I DM a game in which one player is about the smartest guy in the world. his character has a 9 Int. He spends alot of time looking at things online so he will say things like this. "I know that we are fighting a troll. the wizard should cast web in hopes to slow it before casting fireball setting fire to the troll and bypassing its regeneration. Do not attack it in melee except for the fighter who has a flaming sword and the power atk feat." his char should say things like this "lets kill the ugly tall thing" what he hek do i do???????? i dont usually use knowledge checks cuz he already knows it all Let him know that he isn't playing his charecter. An intellegence of 9 isn't incredibly stupid, but he's also not gonna be a great tactician. Ask him to justify his int score, is he forgetful? Is he not very well educated? Is he just dumb as rocks. Ask those questions. If he keeps it up, he's metagaming in the extreme.
spaceiscurved 03-02-06, 09:06 PM	he said that he wouldnt be able to stop himself from giving good ideas. he even an idea to just spend a ton of GP increasing his Int, but i think mebbe he should get a new char, mebbe a wizard
Zombayz1 03-02-06, 09:06 PM	In my not-so-humble opinion you should A)Surprise him with a home-made monster. B)Beat the **** out of him with said monster Or you could tell him "Stop metagaming or your character will die in a perfectly legitimate way (in other words: UNDEAD. WITH. ENERGY DRAIN!)
JamesDruidDM 03-02-06, 09:08 PM	take him asisde and speak with him. seems like a smart guy, he should undstand that with an int of 9 he isnt going to know all that he knows out of game, it may be better for him to lay something that relies on int and he is going to need the appropriate knowledges to know things like that about a troll...unless hes fought a troll before...with this character
Tichrimo 03-02-06, 09:08 PM	Start customizing your monsters... Say the trolls on this mountain are suceptible to cold and sonic instead of fire and acid. Suddenly your player's "knowledge" is useless, and his in-game Int starts to match his character sheet... :)
Mobar2006 03-02-06, 09:11 PM	he said that he wouldnt be able to stop himself from giving good ideas. he even an idea to just spend a ton of GP increasing his Int, but i think mebbe he should get a new char, mebbe a wizard Yeah, he's not playing a char he's happy with if he can't stop spouting off with high int stuff. Its not easy to humble ones self and play to a stat that says your char can't even read or do basic math without using his fingers when you could have an intellegent conversation with Stephan Hawking.
WizO_Cat 03-02-06, 09:21 PM	Well, if he wants to spend his GP on intelligence devices, that would be an answer. The rules don't say that you have to be naturally intelligent to come up with good ideas. However, he sounds like a guy that will understand that until he does that, he's got to play his character less intelligently. Remind him that we all have to catch ourselves from time to time (I know that I have to do that when it comes to metagaming), but an important aspect of the game is that he is able to help control himself when it comes to this.
Pellanor 03-03-06, 12:43 PM	You said there's a wizard in the party? Have it so that these smart tactics are the wizard's idea. I'm assuming that the person playing the wizard isn't as smart as his character, who should be able to come up with these kinds of plans.
Bruunwald 03-03-06, 12:53 PM	The thing is, your characters are always going to be more knowledgable with regards to fighting and tactics than your players are. It's what they do all day long. How do you simulate this knowledge that they should have, but you and I do not? Simply, you allow the party to discuss tactics and to advise each other during the fight. That's already a major part of nearly every game, so by all means, allow it to continue. This way, a smart, well-trained fighter is not limited to the untrained tactics of his player. He is informed by a well of wisdom, which better simulates his experience. Now, as to how to solve this as a character issue, I cite an example from one of our own past games. We had a very clever player who was especially good at solving riddles. His character on the other hand, was a fight-happy dwarf party animal of average intelligence and low wisdom. When a riddle came up the group would discuss it out of character. Usually this player would come up with the answer, or at least aid the others in finding it. Then he might say the answer out loud, but then say something like, "but maybe my guy isn't the one to give it, considering his Intelligence. I vote the wizard gives the answer." And everybody would then express their opinion on who was the most likely to have come up with the actual answer in-game. Then that PC gave the answer. I didn't make up that method, my players did. They still use it to this day.
Morka 03-03-06, 12:59 PM	You said there's a wizard in the party? Have it so that these smart tactics are the wizard's idea. I'm assuming that the person playing the wizard isn't as smart as his character, who should be able to come up with these kinds of plans. It might work. Have the INT player play just beside the wizard, and pass him notes about his ideas. I'm not sure if buying INT-boosting items is a good idea. Telling that you need fire to kill the troll is not a revolutioning idea, it's just applyed knowledge. A stupid goblin who heard the wizard tell it can remember it anytime. With an INT-boosting item, you could more easily complete a puzzle or play chess, but your item won't tell you the troll is "vulnerable" to fire... Perhaps should his character begin to travel with a few books about anything; the character never understand what's in the book, but from times to times "remember" something worthy?
RogerWilco 03-03-06, 02:16 PM	I dont usually use knowledge checks cuz he already knows it all Then you have your answer right there: If the player knows that Trolls get hurt by fire, then roll a knowledge(Nature) check to see if his character does. With an 9 Int his character will not have a lot of ranks in knowledge. To know specific info about a monster is DC10 + HD of the monster, and untrained he can only know things with DC10 or lower. Therefore, unless he has ranks in the approporiate knowledge skills, he will only know about monsters he encountered before.
KarmaSlave 03-03-06, 02:52 PM	Specific advice: Ring of Fire resistance General advice: customize all monsters, sure they are basically the same as the ones listed in the book but have subtle differences that will catch the players off guard. Using magic too often to do this can cheapen it though. Look at the monsters ecologies and combat preferences. These entries can give you ideas of how the monster will set up ambushes, and combat in general, so that it will have more advantages than its opponents. Another facet often overlooked is the monster's INT. Orcs are often regarded as witless brutes but their INT is only slightly less than an avg. human. (look how ingenius we are). Monsters know their weaknesses better than any character and will take measures to minimize their risks in combat. As for the PC, if you think the info passed by the player is not compatable with what the character knows roll an INT check (DM rolled). If they fail "sorry, you don't know that." Remember to go the other way too though. If they are fighters of a decent level their knowledge of tactics maybe better than the players. In my game, knowing the encounter, etc., I can tell the fighters: "you know that is not a good strategy because..." If a player contiually throws out knowledge his character wouldn't have I suggest making any ideas they come up with void for anyone(especially if the offending player does not have a character at that location). This makes solving traps very hard if the correct answer was given by someone metagaming. I use this and the other players have taken it upon themselves to say "be quiet, you're not there." Besides, do you want one player essentially thinking for all the players? Who gets the idea/story points, the players who knows everything or the character who is smart enough to have known? Common world knowledge should be taken into account. Unless trolls are super rare most people will probably have heard of using fire. (see the first paragraph)
SokenzanMarauder 03-03-06, 03:11 PM	KarmaSlave: My thoughts EXACTLY!!! One of the biggest things I do with meta-gamers is change monsters around a bit. I once had a player who was playing as a Dwarven Defender who went up against a group of what they though were Trolls (they were). However, knowing that the meta-gamer would automatically use fire to kill them I kind of switched things around. I dropped their regeneration a bit (down to 2 or 3 if I remember correctly), got rid of their "only fire kills me" and replaced it with "only cutting off my head and burying it around 300ft away from my body kills me", and gave him about 5 points of fire resistance. The meta-gamer was flummoxed and one of my better players rolled a Knowledge(nature) check and found out how you really had to kill them. Variety is the spice of life says I. -Gene
Malakai_Demonos 03-03-06, 03:32 PM	Meta-gaming the strengths and weaknessesof monsters is wrong and should be stopped. However, some degree of meta-gaming should be allowed. If one player has great problem solving skills, this is pry one of the things that he injoyes about DnD. You shouldn't limit him because he wanted to play a fighter, and besides have you read order of the stick. I am sure Ray's int is over9, but he is a fighter who happens to nearly the smartest of his group. If you try to stop your player from telling his friends what he knows, you will deminish his fun. And some people do not like to solve puzzles. These people may be more than willing to set back and let the one who knows what he is doing do it. IF you try to restrict people's traits with the excuss of, "your player wouldn't know that" you will possably ruin their fun. And isn't that our jobs as DMs, to make sure that our friends and ourselves should have a good time.
ressurrector 03-03-06, 04:07 PM	Then you have your answer right there: If the player knows that Trolls get hurt by fire, then roll a knowledge(Nature) check to see if his character does. With an 9 Int his character will not have a lot of ranks in knowledge. To know specific info about a monster is DC10 + HD of the monster, and untrained he can only know things with DC10 or lower. Therefore, unless he has ranks in the approporiate knowledge skills, he will only know about monsters he encountered before. Very good idea, to my knowledge no player in any of my groups has complained about their character failing a Knowledge check and not knowing a vulnerability. It's meerly a roleplaying asset. It also makes knowlege skills (other than arcane) usefull in actual gameplay.
StevenO 03-03-06, 11:45 PM	The player's character may not have the required intelligence but does at least one party member have that knowledge? The question "How do I make my smart player play the Half Orc Int 6 correctly?" is essentially the same as "How do I (Int 12?) play a character with Int 22?" In such a situation it is often easist to allow it to pass provided someone it the group matches the high Int of the players. The only really problems is when the low Int PC's player it telling the high Int PC's player what to do.
ThorGuy 03-06-06, 01:47 AM	I think this topic is getting way off subject. It was originally created to provide spaceiscurved with advice on helping his player roleplay a character with low Int, though it seems to have degenerated into an argument about how to punish the player for metagaming. I do agree with Bruunwald though. Also, on the subject of troll metagaming, in which we seem to be so firmly planted, why would a character not know that trolls are susceptible to fire? I am probably a level 1 human commoner, and have no ranks in Knowledge(Nature), (I've never been a park ranger or anything) and yet I know that you make yourself as big as possible and make loud noises to scare cougars away. If anything, it would be safe to assume that people in the DnD world know a great deal more about nature then we do, and would most assuredly have knowledge about common monsters. Your average player cannot roleplay specialized knowledge and other such things, and so is given other advantages to compensate. For example, a 15th Lvl. Fighter may decide to rush his foe, attempting to knock him off the cliff, while making an underarm slash with his sword and giving his enemy a roundhouse blow to the head with his free hand. The fighter would think all this out and decide on a course of action within a fraction of a second, but a player cannot be expected to make the lightening fast decisions a fighter with 20 years of experience could, and so is given ample time to decide what to do. Likewise, a familiarity with the monster manual compensates for the years of immersion in the campaign world that a player's character is normally gifted with. Certainly, you should draw the line at specialized or rare knowledge, (Thrud, the 8 Int Barbarian, explains to the party about Tarrasque hibernation cycles) but I see no reason to penalize the party for knowing basic info about the game. Oh, and simply saying "You can't do that, because your character doesn't know about Trolls being vulnerable to fire." simply reeks of being... Shot. In the face. With a hammer. /rant
MrBrown 03-06-06, 03:33 AM	Another method would be to simply ask them for justification for the actions of their characters. "Your character doesn't know trolls are vulnerable to fire, so why does he do that?". I don't think the above is that good of a piece of advice, but... The pure existance of Trolls is pretty good proof on how metagaming is required in D&D.
HalasterAteMyHamster 03-06-06, 04:32 AM	Do any characters in the party have reasonable Int. scores (i.e. the Wizard)? If so, consider asking him to share his knowledge OOC but play dumb IC. That way, everyone's happy. The players of high-int. characters can listen to him, and then use that knowledge, b/c it's concievable that their characters would know it. He'll still be able to use what he knows, and there's no more meta-gaming.
Gemmalah 03-06-06, 07:45 AM	But if someone metagames anyway and says his/her character just 'happens' to use fire against a troll. For example and its a lucky guess and every monster you come accross is a lucky guess. How can you stop metagaming if they are not pronouncing they know it but you know they do!
LCD2YOU 03-06-06, 08:26 AM	But if someone metagames anyway and says his/her character just 'happens' to use fire against a troll. For example and its a lucky guess and every monster you come accross is a lucky guess. How can you stop metagaming if they are not pronouncing they know it but you know they do! Answer you tell them they see a bad guy but not what type of bad guy. I see the OP problem as I had to deal with it a lot in my time. Players who gimp on Wis and Int but play theit characters very smart and wise. I've come up with a way to handle that. It still allows for player ingenuity but they really don't have all of the facts to go with when they have what are essentially Homer Simpson IQs. First, I take PC Intelligence as book knowledge and being able to solve complex riddles andtraps. Even down to the point where players with lower Intelligence characters get much harder puzzles to solve than those with higher scores. Second, I use Wisdom for PC as memory, recognition and being able to put what may seem to be seperate issues and linking them together. The ability to remember little things is a function of Wisdom as well. So when a player, who maybe the brightest person ever who has a character with a 6 Int goes into a room and sees something, all I say is they see a monster. Tale of 4 characters who see a Troll: Int and Wis high, you see a troll and you remember their problems with acid and fire. Int high, Wis low, you see a monster and while you remember that it has special defences, you forget what. Roll Wisdom check. Int low, Wis high, you see a monster and as soon as you see it get hit and how fast it heals, while you forget it's name, you remember that fire and acid hurts these things. Int and Wis low, there's a bad guy in the room. When a player, no matter how smart hears that, they can't metagame their way out. They better hope that there's someone else in the group who can remember and if they forget, then they fight the best they can with what they already got. A party made up of dumb characters and a forgetful mage or worse yet a low Int and Wis Sorcerer will get waxed. Not only should a party be diverse in skills but diverse in stats as well.
High Octane 03-06-06, 08:54 AM	That's a knowledge check. He's metagaming, which is for all intensive purposes, cheating. Watch the surprise in his eyes when you describe a troll and when he starts metagaming, he finds out that BEFOREHAND you have switched the regular troll with a RED troll, who instead of fire and acid is weak to cold and electricity. The WEB part is not metagaming. Its sort of common sense for a fighter to say "WIZARD! See if you can hold down that thing! You have that webbing spell right?"
wrecan 03-06-06, 09:57 AM	I hate, hate, hate the idea that DMs play the Intelligence stat to limit role-playing. Do you tell low Charisma players to stop being so damn cute? Do you tell low Wisdom players they aren't reckless enough and should be getting the players in trouble more often? The problem with the OP's player is not poorly role-playing a low Intelligence. There are all sorts of smart and dumb and I don't think DMs should be telling players how to role-play. That's not the their job. The problem is the player is using Skills he does not possess. The Dm brought it on himself by disallowing Knowledge checks to know a monster's capacity. Who is to say that the 9 Int player may not have slotted all of his Skill Points into Knowledges had the DM required Knowledge checks? The DM should reintegrate the Knowledge check requirement. The player cannot metagame unless he makes his check. Period. And a player who doesn't have OOG knowledge of a creature who makes a check should be given the knowledge by the DM. That way it is equally fair to those who have memorized the MM and those who haven't. You will quickly see this guy rewriting his character, not to increase his Int, but to kncrease his Knowledge skills. Heck, I've often thought a useful Feat would be "Zoologist" which would give a +2 to all Knowledge checks used to identify a creature.
LCD2YOU 03-06-06, 10:18 AM	I hate, hate, hate the idea that DMs play the Intelligence stat to limit role-playing. Do you tell low Charisma players to stop being so damn cute? Do you tell low Wisdom players they aren't reckless enough and should be getting the players in trouble more often? Amen brother. Sing it loud. As for players who are very charismatice but their PCs aren't I simple tell them that their attempts to be cute to the pretty girl or handsome guy falls flat. As for Wisdom, I never tell a player they're not being reckless enough, but high Wisdom players I will warn them about what might happen with a reckless course of action. The problem with the OP's player is not poorly role-playing a low Intelligence. There are all sorts of smart and dumb and I don't think DMs should be telling players how to role-play. That's not the their job. That should not be done unless the players simply aren't roleplaying. Even then, it is up to the DM to assist them in roleplaying and not tell them how to. If they ask, answer howeever. The idea of going out of your way as a DM to punish the offending players is likewise foolish. The punishment comes from not roleplaying and hearing what's going about in the town and simply realying on dice rolling to get one through. The problem is the player is using Skills he does not possess. The Dm brought it on himself by disallowing Knowledge checks to know a monster's capacity. Who is to say that the 9 Int player may not have slotted all of his Skill Points into Knowledges had the DM required Knowledge checks? Ah yes, the caveat. That is true and even in my example, which was very generic, if the PC has the appropiate skill sets, then they can roll against that. That encourages skills in something other than "Intimidate". The DM should reintegrate the Knowledge check requirement. The player cannot metagame unless he makes his check. Period. And a player who doesn't have OOG knowledge of a creature who makes a check should be given the knowledge by the DM. That way it is equally fair to those who have memorized the MM and those who haven't. Again, sing it loud brother. I agree. You will quickly see this guy rewriting his character, not to increase his Int, but to kncrease his Knowledge skills. And wishing that he had something other than a 9 Int with its -1 "bonus" to knowledge. A human fighter with a 9 Int at 7th level only has 20 pionts. I don't think that Knowledge is a class skill for a fighter though. The highest skill he could have in knowledge, if I'm correct about any Knowledge skill being CC for Fighters, is I think 5 ranks at a cost of 10 points. Heck, I've often thought a useful Feat would be "Zoologist" which would give a +2 to all Knowledge checks used to identify a creature. Hmmm. I allow Knowlege: Monsters Local, Knowledge: Monsters Ancient, etc., with DCs based on common 10, uncommon 15, rare 20, etc. There are other mods if the monsters aren't local, aberrations, etc. If the villages are attacked by Abboleths in the past, even though it is a rare monster, people will most likely know about it.
wrecan 03-06-06, 12:20 PM	Another option is to allow the PC with knowledge to disgorge that knowledge if anybody makes the Knowledge check. But frankly, in my game, when a player makes the Knowledge check, I just hand the Monster Manual entry to the players and let them pore over it. Afte rall, speaking is a free action. no reaons not to let them strategize in the midst of combat. That's half the fun of combat. If no player makes a Knowledge check, they're flying blind. That's why my players generally try to ensure that someone in the party has a good number of dots in any Knowledge. It's not all that hard to limit metagaming of this fashion. You're the one telling the players what they experience. If you haven't told the players about vulnerability to fire and they haven't seen the regenerating, ask them why they did that. Nine times out of ten, the justification is lame and you nix the action. If players are frustrated, they will dedicate points to those Skills. After all, once a Wizard has maxed out on Concentrate and Spellcraft, Knowledge Skills are pretty much what's left for them, unless they fancy themselves a polyglot. And a thanks for the support form LCD2YOU!
LCD2YOU 03-06-06, 12:42 PM	Giving credit where credit is due.
igronimus 03-06-06, 03:20 PM	A 9 intelligence is just slightly below average. If your player ever saw his wizard friend in action, which he no doubt has, and has a rudimentary knowlege of trolls, which he probably has being a fighter in a fantasy world, I see no reason why the character couldn't hatch a plan of such simplicity. If he had a 3 or 4 int I could see your argument, but 9 isn't really all that bad. On top of that, the guy is a fighter, tactics are part of his training. There seems to be an overarching mentality that any intelligence score that doesn't result in a +1 or better means the players can only think to the degree of "me smash bad monster with club!" Members of our armed forces routinely use tactics of much greater complexity than that, and I highly doubt they are all geniuses.
LCD2YOU 03-06-06, 08:53 PM	A 9 intelligence is just slightly below average. If your player ever saw his wizard friend in action, which he no doubt has, and has a rudimentary knowlege of trolls, which he probably has being a fighter in a fantasy world, I see no reason why the character couldn't hatch a plan of such simplicity. If he had a 3 or 4 int I could see your argument, but 9 isn't really all that bad. On top of that, the guy is a fighter, tactics are part of his training. There seems to be an overarching mentality that any intelligence score that doesn't result in a +1 or better means the players can only think to the degree of "me smash bad monster with club!" Members of our armed forces routinely use tactics of much greater complexity than that, and I highly doubt they are all geniuses. All too true but members of the US and other "top notch" militaries get the best in training which certainly provides a lot of "skill points and levels". The members of any "fantasy" or dark ages army would get little like that save basic formation. As for the 9 Int, that is what the knowledge rolls are for in game. If the character has never seen a troll before, they may not know what they are fighting. Even if they had, there is no reason to believe that the information they have is correct. How many "old wive's tales" survive into this century that are out and out wrong? That is why I like my approach. In the player wants to gimp in Int and Wis, there is a price to pay. That proce is that the player, looking through the eyes of the character doesn't get the whole picture as the character has no idea what to make of it and ignores it. Want to bend bars? High Strength. Want to move quickly? High Dexterity. Want to resist diseases? High Constitution. Want to charm the serving wench out of her clothes? High Charisma. Why should minute descriptions be given to players on a whim? As they say knowledge is power. Having a character with a good intellect and a decent wisdom is just as important as high physical stats. It seems to be that those with high physical stats seem to work for those with high mental stats. Of course, if the player asks many minute questions, that's completely fine and dandy. Let them roll Knowledge checks. If their character doesn't know as they can't grasp the details, that is a problem. It is what you get when you gimp your character on Int and Wis. The role-playing is still very much there. The issue is the player is role-playing through what the character can understand. That is no different that weilding a sword. An 18 Strength character wields a sword with power and a general ability just due to raw strength. A character with 8 Strength just can't do it as well. The same is true with knowledge.
ressurrector 03-06-06, 11:19 PM	^ What he said. There's also a reason that 3.5 added Knowledge (dungeonering) sp? If you have a low Int, you're not goiing to recall every tale about every monster you may or may not have heard. If you have a low Wis you may not be able to tell good ideas apart from bad ideas. You're also last on the list to notice anything that dosen't seem right. If you have a low Cha not many people are going to listen to you or like you untill you prove yourself. (it should affect NPCs but not really party members) There are very big and obvious penalties for having low physical stats, there should be some downfall if the group fighter tanks everything save Str/Dex/Con. The cleric who has high Int/Wis/Cha and low phys stats is otherwise getting the proverbial short end of the stick.
Frodo Lives 03-06-06, 11:26 PM	I don't expect a Player to role play his characters Str or Dex, but they affect the game. I don't expect a Player to role play his characters Int or Wis, but they affect the game. If you are playing a low Cha character, people treat you differently than if you had a high Cha. If you are playing a low Int or Wis then you respond to information differently than a higher Int of Wis character. This is all represented by how the information is presented to the players. If a player metagames using knowledge that his character wouldn't have either because of a low stat or low skill, that knowledge is not allowed to be used. Calling out good tactics is entirely different than listing monster stats. The former could be reasonably done by a fairly low int fighter, after all they do fight for a living. The latter is punished.
LCD2YOU 03-07-06, 07:05 AM	Thinking strategically is never something a DM should mess with. On the other hand, giving a puzzle to a player with Mensa IQ while his charcter is slightly smarter than Homer Simpson doesn't make any sense either. There is a middle ground that allows "low" Int players with "high" Int characters, and the reverse is true, to role-play out their choices in character creation. First, do some up front ground work as I do with my players. I tell them up front that if they choose to have low Int and Wis characters, they will limit themselves as much as if they gave themselves low Con and Str. Let them know that while there maybe a lot in a room, their character may not be able to understand its implications and therefore just ignore it, which could be to their determent. Hey, are you going to give a 9 Str character the same chance to bend bars or lift gates as an 18 Str character? Of course not so why give out the same amount of details to an 9 Int character as you do an 18 Int character? A typical description to two different characters will go as follows: 9 Int character: There's a bunch of rocks and boulders in the area. The walls of the conayon are pretty high and steep. The canyon seems to go in quite a ways. You see it turns to the left some distance up ahead. 18 Int character: There's a lot of rocks and boulders in the area. However, you note that they look like they've either been rolling down the sides of the canyon, but there are no rocks above on the walls that you can see now. It seems more likely they were thrown. The canyon walls are steep and would make a difficult climb running up their 60' height and it is most likely that one or more will fall backwards As you look down the canyon, the walls start to close in slightly. While the walls don't seem to suggest it here, you think this could be a box canyon. Of course, if the 9 Int character has skills in Knowledge Giants, Survival or other skills, they could get some of the same info. Survival may well tell them about the box canyon where as the Knowledge could tell them that this looks like what he's heard about giant tactics. The problem is at 9 Int, they are already at -1 for skill points every level. A half-Orc Barabarrian, if he had no ranks in Survival would march right in their expecting his fearsome fighting skills to carry the day. A player of course could still decide something is wrong, I'll call this PC "6th Sense", but the player could act on misinformation as well with their 6th sense and actually go away from their goal. As fo puzzles and traps, I give players with low Int characters much harder puzzles to solve, like the Mensa stuff where I give players with high Int characters the easier puzzles. Again, another caveat is having a very smart character in the group. Unless the character is a non-talkative and sullen individual, they can relate to the group what they see, etc. That is no different than any advisor to the tactician of the group. A 9 Int fighter who has an 18 Int Wizard who he trusts and listens to gets to use the description I give to the Wizard. I've found that helps build party unity and trust as well.
Cantankerous 03-07-06, 08:33 AM	Abilities are useful for checks and for VERY general guidelines concerning how to protray the character...period. They, like Alignment, are tools to help define, not EVER to straightjacket a character. One of the most creative problem solvers I've ever met was a guy who has, I do not doubt, under 100 as an IQ, his learning and reasoning ability are barely average, if that, ...he's just got that special something, that twinkle. He's also no paragon of common sense or perception...he'd be as likely to miss the door and walk into the wall as to see it most of the time, so this isn't a case of a mid to low intel and a high wisdom, but that intangible something else; THAT he's got in spades. In D&D terms he'd probably have a 10 Int and an 8 (at best) Wisdom, yet he'd trip over that idea naturally in the given situation. These people (the adventurers) aren't the shmoes plowing the fields. They are not average people. They stick out even among those with higher stats. The thing that sets them apart is their ability to simply pull it out of their nether orfices time and again... it's an intangible something, a certain special twinkle. That said, if this young man is as bright as you say he is then he won't have any trouble understanding why using OoC knowledge in character is not optimal. The best bet is to use the skill (Knowledge) check for the first encounter with a new situation irregardless of what the raw stats are. Simply having a 18 IQ does not make you an expert on the batting averages of the 1979 Dodgers...there has to be an interest to become Knowledgeable in that area. The same holds true with the lore of trolls, even if they're a moderately common monster in the area where you've grown up. There's a genius I know who grew up in the shadow of Chavez Ravine who doesn't know a flyball from a horsefly. Without the interest, there is no knowledge. A big Blue fan though, even if he has trouble reading anything more complex than the sports page, may know all there is to know about the Blue machine over the past twenty or thirty years. It's all down to interests. The game has the optimal mechanic in place. Use it. Isshia