Character overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character overpowered? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Conlan
02-05-07, 02:19 PM I'm sure there's already a thread about similar occurances, but I'd rather not dig, so bear with me.

I have a slight problem regarding Duskblades from the PHBII.

The character obtained a Spell-storing Greatsword. As an 8th level Duskblade, he has several uses of 1st-level spells per day (as well as 2nd-level). He took a round to store Shocking Grasp in his sword before battle. During the first round of combat this is what happened.

Full round attack: +8/+3 (+whatever his str mod was)
Attack #1: 2d6 + 5d6 (channeled shocking grasp)
Attack #2: 2d6 + 5d6 (stored shocking grasp)

In total, that's 14d6+(3x str mod)

Channeling is listed as a standard action, Releasing a stored spell is a free action, but the rest of the party feels that 14d6 at 8th level is overpowered, even if he can only do it once. (Note: The basis behind this conclusion was experience with 2e.)

Our current rule is: Only 1 special ability or attack option can be used in a round, which presents a conflict for certain things from ToB.

I have a few questions pertaining to a resolution to this problem.

1) Are the limits in place for duskblade enough to compensate for this "munchkinish" combination?

2) Are there rules that I'm overlooking that pertain to using a channeled spell and stored spell in this manner?

3) Any suggestions on how to resolve the issue, preferrably without nerfing the duskblade (or ONLY the duskblade). [I was thinking of changing the 1st-level spells to max spell level rather than caster level - or every odd caster level]
Senevri
02-05-07, 02:30 PM Congratulations, he did almost as much damage as a empowered scorching ray.

Oh, but he had to hit AC, not touch AC...
And he can't do it again in the next round.

Consider a fireball at that level. It does straightforward 8d6 at that point, and cannot yet be empowered - need to be level 9 to do that, at which point it'll do 13d6.
...To everyone in the area.
Conlan
02-05-07, 03:01 PM Congratulations, he did almost as much damage as a empowered scorching ray.

Oh, but he had to hit AC, not touch AC...
And he can't do it again in the next round.

Consider a fireball at that level. It does straightforward 8d6 at that point, and cannot yet be empowered - need to be level 9 to do that, at which point it'll do 13d6.
...To everyone in the area.

Wow... thank you. That may just be the foundation I need to not nerf Duskblades.
OneWinged4ngel
02-05-07, 04:06 PM 14d6 overpowered? At level 8? And you can only do it once? On a full round action? Uhm...

That's not exactly alarmingly strong, man. How the heck is this munchkinish?

Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is *not* an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything.

So... it looks like you guys do not have an understanding of the basic rules *or* an understanding of basic balance. *Sigh*

Anyways, the issue goes away completely if you just remember that a Standard Action isn't an Attack Action. Which is one of the most basic rules in D&D. Do you let casters cast spells as part a full attack action? The logic you're using for this ruling here doesn't even remotely make sense to me, and I'm not sure how you could have gotten to it.
DM_Death
02-05-07, 04:50 PM Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is *not* an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything.

Perhaps you should READ THE RULES about something before you get snotty with someone asking a question. Arcane channeling as a duskblade is a standard action AS PART OF AN ATTACK. It allows the duskblade to cast a 1st level touch spell through his weapon when he MAKES AN ATTACK! So, yes, he CAN in fact attack and use a standard action to channel...THAT'S WHAT THE ABILITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, the duskblade CANNOT channel AND make a full attack until he's 13th level or higher. At that point he can only channel on ONE attack and THEN he could make the rest of his attacks (using a stored spell in his spell-storing weapon as he wished on any of the subsequent attacks).

The duskblade isn't munchkinish. You just allowed him to make one extra attack in the round that he didn't have access to. In the future, remember that a duskblade can't make a full attack AND channel until 13+ level.
Grand Theft Otto
02-05-07, 04:53 PM You might also point out that he did that damage over 2 rounds (since he cast SG on the first round). What did the others do that first round? If you get the drop on enemies, a round of prep or free blasts makes a ton of difference.
DM_Death
02-05-07, 05:00 PM Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is *not* an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything.

Perhaps you should READ THE RULES about something before you get snotty with someone asking a question. Arcane channeling as a duskblade is a standard action AS PART OF AN ATTACK. It allows the duskblade to cast a 1st level touch spell through his weapon when he MAKES AN ATTACK! So, yes, he CAN in fact attack and use a standard action to channel...THAT'S WHAT THE ABILITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, the duskblade CANNOT channel AND make a full attack until he's 13th level or higher. At that point he can only channel on ONE attack and THEN he could make the rest of his attacks (using a stored spell in his spell-storing weapon as he wished on any of the subsequent attacks).

The duskblade isn't munchkinish. You just allowed him to make one extra attack in the round that he didn't have access to. In the future, remember that a duskblade can't make a full attack AND channel until 13+ level.
Cromag
02-05-07, 05:06 PM Doesn't look like alot of damage to me in comparison to spells. I suppose it looks like a lot next to straight melee, unless of course you factor in power attack

14d6=49 damage

lets say I have 22 str as a fighter power attack and weapon spec and a +1 greatsword {gauntlets of ogrepower, 2points from levelling and starting with an 18 str}

you said his to hit was +8/+3

So I will power attack to those numbers

base to hit

8 BAB
6 str
1 weapon focus
1 magic weapon

that's +16 to hit normally

power attack for 8= 16 damage
strength=9
weapon spec =2
greatsword=7
magic sword=1

that's an average of 35 damage for one hit, 70 for 2, to hit +8/+3

and that's assuming I don't critical hit, that could potentially hit for 140 damage in one full attack action with the same bonus to hit as your duskblade.

I suppose the duskblade can max at 84 damage, but really who cares, he will hit ok for that shot and be weak for the rest of the day. A strong fighter will do fine in comparison and any caster will beat him out, especially in a few levels.
OneWinged4ngel
02-05-07, 05:22 PM Perhaps you should READ THE RULES about something before you get snotty with someone asking a question. Arcane channeling as a duskblade is a standard action AS PART OF AN ATTACK. Actually, it's an attack as part of a standard action. It allows the duskblade to cast a 1st level touch spell through his weapon when he MAKES AN ATTACK! So, yes, he CAN in fact attack and use a standard action to channel...THAT'S WHAT THE ABILITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know that. I never said otherwise in my post. So you're shouting for no reason, which doesn't exactly make you look too bright, to put it politely. In fact, it makes you look a bit unstable... heh. My objection was to the OP's statement that you could channel as part of a full attack. I never said that the standard action could not involve an attack, just that a standard action is distinct from an attack action (which it is)

For the record, I did read the rules, and my interpretation is accurate. I can guarantee this. Thanks, now calm the heck down. Maybe you should read what people are saying before you blow your top for no apparent reason. And not post the same thing twice.

Additionally, you might want to reconsider reacting to an entirely perceived notion of someone's tone (a person who is actually being helpful and pointing out how the rules work, I might add.) with shouting, insults, and a ridiculous overusage of caps lock and exclamation points.

However, the duskblade CANNOT channel AND make a full attack until he's 13th level or higher. That's what I said.
tsuyoshikentsu
02-05-07, 05:34 PM (Note: The basis behind this conclusion was experience with 2e.)

This is really the issue. For better or for worse, characters are more powerful now and the distribution of power is a little more even.

So yes. While 14d6 in two rounds may be unheard of at 8th level in 2E, so would a 13d6 fireball.
OneWinged4ngel
02-05-07, 05:41 PM This is really the issue. For better or for worse, characters are more powerful now and the distribution of power is a little more even.

So yes. While 14d6 in two rounds may be unheard of at 8th level in 2E, so would a 13d6 fireball.

Again, I note that not only is this not very powerful, but indeed it is also against the rules. You can't channel as part of a full attack until level 13.
Sphyre
02-05-07, 06:00 PM Congratulations, he did almost as much damage as a empowered scorching ray.

Oh, but he had to hit AC, not touch AC...
And he can't do it again in the next round.

Consider a fireball at that level. It does straightforward 8d6 at that point, and cannot yet be empowered - need to be level 9 to do that, at which point it'll do 13d6.
...To everyone in the area.

and he does it at range, not melee.
And he only needed to take a standard action to do so.
And the duskblade has to spend wealth on getting the spell storing weapon in the first place.

And a druid could take a 4th level spell slot to cast flame strike with a prayer bead and do 12d6 damage with it along with having half divine damage so it's not reducable by resistances, along with hitting everyone in the area on a standard action.

Then there are other things to get similar effects.

Remember one trick ponies are just that. Duskblades may be a bit nice at levels 1-4, but after that they really don't scale that well. If you're duskblade in your player's party is outshining other people, your other players just aren't truely being efficient enough. This is the best the duskblade will probably ever do.
Mock26
02-05-07, 06:50 PM 14d6 overpowered? At level 8? And you can only do it once? On a full round action? Uhm...

That's not exactly alarmingly strong, man. How the heck is this munchkinish?

Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is *not* an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything.

So... it looks like you guys do not have an understanding of the basic rules *or* an understanding of basic balance. *Sigh*

Anyways, the issue goes away completely if you just remember that a Standard Action isn't an Attack Action. Which is one of the most basic rules in D&D. Do you let casters cast spells as part a full attack action? The logic you're using for this ruling here doesn't even remotely make sense to me, and I'm not sure how you could have gotten to it.

Wow! Talk about being rudely condescending!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Mock26/LLJ%2005/emeralashborer.jpg
Cromag
02-06-07, 01:21 AM What's up with the bug?
Conlan
02-06-07, 01:44 PM Okay, thank you guys for your corrections to my interpretation of the rules, although some of them could have gone without the "you are an idiot" implications. - As I stated in my first post, "I may have mistinterpreted the text" which is now apparant that I did. I understand now that channeling disallows the use of the full-attack action (until level 13).

On a side note (please don't respond to this): I thought that an attack was a standard action. I understand now that you can take an attack action in the place of a standard action.

This has all been very helpful and I appreciate your input.

Thank you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Conlan 02-05-07, 02:19 PM	I'm sure there's already a thread about similar occurances, but I'd rather not dig, so bear with me. I have a slight problem regarding Duskblades from the PHBII. The character obtained a Spell-storing Greatsword. As an 8th level Duskblade, he has several uses of 1st-level spells per day (as well as 2nd-level). He took a round to store Shocking Grasp in his sword before battle. During the first round of combat this is what happened. Full round attack: +8/+3 (+whatever his str mod was) Attack #1: 2d6 + 5d6 (channeled shocking grasp) Attack #2: 2d6 + 5d6 (stored shocking grasp) In total, that's 14d6+(3x str mod) Channeling is listed as a standard action, Releasing a stored spell is a free action, but the rest of the party feels that 14d6 at 8th level is overpowered, even if he can only do it once. (Note: The basis behind this conclusion was experience with 2e.) Our current rule is: Only 1 special ability or attack option can be used in a round, which presents a conflict for certain things from ToB. I have a few questions pertaining to a resolution to this problem. 1) Are the limits in place for duskblade enough to compensate for this "munchkinish" combination? 2) Are there rules that I'm overlooking that pertain to using a channeled spell and stored spell in this manner? 3) Any suggestions on how to resolve the issue, preferrably without nerfing the duskblade (or ONLY the duskblade). [I was thinking of changing the 1st-level spells to max spell level rather than caster level - or every odd caster level]
Senevri 02-05-07, 02:30 PM	Congratulations, he did almost as much damage as a empowered scorching ray. Oh, but he had to hit AC, not touch AC... And he can't do it again in the next round. Consider a fireball at that level. It does straightforward 8d6 at that point, and cannot yet be empowered - need to be level 9 to do that, at which point it'll do 13d6. ...To everyone in the area.
Conlan 02-05-07, 03:01 PM	Congratulations, he did almost as much damage as a empowered scorching ray. Oh, but he had to hit AC, not touch AC... And he can't do it again in the next round. Consider a fireball at that level. It does straightforward 8d6 at that point, and cannot yet be empowered - need to be level 9 to do that, at which point it'll do 13d6. ...To everyone in the area. Wow... thank you. That may just be the foundation I need to not nerf Duskblades.
OneWinged4ngel 02-05-07, 04:06 PM	14d6 overpowered? At level 8? And you can only do it once? On a full round action? Uhm... That's not exactly alarmingly strong, man. How the heck is this munchkinish? Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is not an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything. So... it looks like you guys do not have an understanding of the basic rules or an understanding of basic balance. Sigh Anyways, the issue goes away completely if you just remember that a Standard Action isn't an Attack Action. Which is one of the most basic rules in D&D. Do you let casters cast spells as part a full attack action? The logic you're using for this ruling here doesn't even remotely make sense to me, and I'm not sure how you could have gotten to it.
DM_Death 02-05-07, 04:50 PM	Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is not an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything. Perhaps you should READ THE RULES about something before you get snotty with someone asking a question. Arcane channeling as a duskblade is a standard action AS PART OF AN ATTACK. It allows the duskblade to cast a 1st level touch spell through his weapon when he MAKES AN ATTACK! So, yes, he CAN in fact attack and use a standard action to channel...THAT'S WHAT THE ABILITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However, the duskblade CANNOT channel AND make a full attack until he's 13th level or higher. At that point he can only channel on ONE attack and THEN he could make the rest of his attacks (using a stored spell in his spell-storing weapon as he wished on any of the subsequent attacks). The duskblade isn't munchkinish. You just allowed him to make one extra attack in the round that he didn't have access to. In the future, remember that a duskblade can't make a full attack AND channel until 13+ level.
Grand Theft Otto 02-05-07, 04:53 PM	You might also point out that he did that damage over 2 rounds (since he cast SG on the first round). What did the others do that first round? If you get the drop on enemies, a round of prep or free blasts makes a ton of difference.
DM_Death 02-05-07, 05:00 PM	Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is not an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything. Perhaps you should READ THE RULES about something before you get snotty with someone asking a question. Arcane channeling as a duskblade is a standard action AS PART OF AN ATTACK. It allows the duskblade to cast a 1st level touch spell through his weapon when he MAKES AN ATTACK! So, yes, he CAN in fact attack and use a standard action to channel...THAT'S WHAT THE ABILITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However, the duskblade CANNOT channel AND make a full attack until he's 13th level or higher. At that point he can only channel on ONE attack and THEN he could make the rest of his attacks (using a stored spell in his spell-storing weapon as he wished on any of the subsequent attacks). The duskblade isn't munchkinish. You just allowed him to make one extra attack in the round that he didn't have access to. In the future, remember that a duskblade can't make a full attack AND channel until 13+ level.
Cromag 02-05-07, 05:06 PM	Doesn't look like alot of damage to me in comparison to spells. I suppose it looks like a lot next to straight melee, unless of course you factor in power attack 14d6=49 damage lets say I have 22 str as a fighter power attack and weapon spec and a +1 greatsword {gauntlets of ogrepower, 2points from levelling and starting with an 18 str} you said his to hit was +8/+3 So I will power attack to those numbers base to hit 8 BAB 6 str 1 weapon focus 1 magic weapon that's +16 to hit normally power attack for 8= 16 damage strength=9 weapon spec =2 greatsword=7 magic sword=1 that's an average of 35 damage for one hit, 70 for 2, to hit +8/+3 and that's assuming I don't critical hit, that could potentially hit for 140 damage in one full attack action with the same bonus to hit as your duskblade. I suppose the duskblade can max at 84 damage, but really who cares, he will hit ok for that shot and be weak for the rest of the day. A strong fighter will do fine in comparison and any caster will beat him out, especially in a few levels.
OneWinged4ngel 02-05-07, 05:22 PM	Perhaps you should READ THE RULES about something before you get snotty with someone asking a question. Arcane channeling as a duskblade is a standard action AS PART OF AN ATTACK. Actually, it's an attack as part of a standard action. It allows the duskblade to cast a 1st level touch spell through his weapon when he MAKES AN ATTACK! So, yes, he CAN in fact attack and use a standard action to channel...THAT'S WHAT THE ABILITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know that. I never said otherwise in my post. So you're shouting for no reason, which doesn't exactly make you look too bright, to put it politely. In fact, it makes you look a bit unstable... heh. My objection was to the OP's statement that you could channel as part of a full attack. I never said that the standard action could not involve an attack, just that a standard action is distinct from an attack action (which it is) For the record, I did read the rules, and my interpretation is accurate. I can guarantee this. Thanks, now calm the heck down. Maybe you should read what people are saying before you blow your top for no apparent reason. And not post the same thing twice. Additionally, you might want to reconsider reacting to an entirely perceived notion of someone's tone (a person who is actually being helpful and pointing out how the rules work, I might add.) with shouting, insults, and a ridiculous overusage of caps lock and exclamation points. However, the duskblade CANNOT channel AND make a full attack until he's 13th level or higher. That's what I said.
tsuyoshikentsu 02-05-07, 05:34 PM	(Note: The basis behind this conclusion was experience with 2e.) This is really the issue. For better or for worse, characters are more powerful now and the distribution of power is a little more even. So yes. While 14d6 in two rounds may be unheard of at 8th level in 2E, so would a 13d6 fireball.
OneWinged4ngel 02-05-07, 05:41 PM	This is really the issue. For better or for worse, characters are more powerful now and the distribution of power is a little more even. So yes. While 14d6 in two rounds may be unheard of at 8th level in 2E, so would a 13d6 fireball. Again, I note that not only is this not very powerful, but indeed it is also against the rules. You can't channel as part of a full attack until level 13.
Sphyre 02-05-07, 06:00 PM	Congratulations, he did almost as much damage as a empowered scorching ray. Oh, but he had to hit AC, not touch AC... And he can't do it again in the next round. Consider a fireball at that level. It does straightforward 8d6 at that point, and cannot yet be empowered - need to be level 9 to do that, at which point it'll do 13d6. ...To everyone in the area. and he does it at range, not melee. And he only needed to take a standard action to do so. And the duskblade has to spend wealth on getting the spell storing weapon in the first place. And a druid could take a 4th level spell slot to cast flame strike with a prayer bead and do 12d6 damage with it along with having half divine damage so it's not reducable by resistances, along with hitting everyone in the area on a standard action. Then there are other things to get similar effects. Remember one trick ponies are just that. Duskblades may be a bit nice at levels 1-4, but after that they really don't scale that well. If you're duskblade in your player's party is outshining other people, your other players just aren't truely being efficient enough. This is the best the duskblade will probably ever do.
Mock26 02-05-07, 06:50 PM	14d6 overpowered? At level 8? And you can only do it once? On a full round action? Uhm... That's not exactly alarmingly strong, man. How the heck is this munchkinish? Oh, right, it's not even legal. You're ignoring one of the most basic and intrinsic rules of the D&D system: Actions! If something's a standard action, it's not something you do as part of a full attack, now is it? You can't channel on a full attack until level 13, because a channelled attack is... guess what? A standard action. Just like you said. A standard action is not an attack action. It's not part of a full round action. A full round attack doesn't get to channel anything. So... it looks like you guys do not have an understanding of the basic rules or an understanding of basic balance. Sigh Anyways, the issue goes away completely if you just remember that a Standard Action isn't an Attack Action. Which is one of the most basic rules in D&D. Do you let casters cast spells as part a full attack action? The logic you're using for this ruling here doesn't even remotely make sense to me, and I'm not sure how you could have gotten to it. Wow! Talk about being rudely condescending! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Mock26/LLJ%2005/emeralashborer.jpg
Cromag 02-06-07, 01:21 AM	What's up with the bug?
Conlan 02-06-07, 01:44 PM	Okay, thank you guys for your corrections to my interpretation of the rules, although some of them could have gone without the "you are an idiot" implications. - As I stated in my first post, "I may have mistinterpreted the text" which is now apparant that I did. I understand now that channeling disallows the use of the full-attack action (until level 13). On a side note (please don't respond to this): I thought that an attack was a standard action. I understand now that you can take an attack action in the place of a standard action. This has all been very helpful and I appreciate your input. Thank you.