Post/Author/DateTime	Post
graddlin 03-19-07, 03:37 AM	Greetings, friends. I have recently run into a rather interesting situation: One of my PCs offed himself!:eek: Never in my darkest dreams has my mind fathomed such an end to one of my beloved adventurers! I shall give you the reasons behind this poor fool's final act of stupidity: The party managed to deal with a group of marauding owlbears that had been preying upon livestock amidst a small township. As their reward, the PCs were given the right to stay within the set of villages' finest inn, free of charge, and were each offered a share of the local landowner's profits from exports (It would amount to each PC recieving 40-50 gp bi-anually). One of the PCs, a human Druid, did not want to be beholden to any "Pock mark on the natural landscape," and refused his payment. Understanding his desires, the local landowner offered the druid a small stretch of woodland within the bounds of the township's lands. This turned out to be the perfect reward for the druid, and took it with much gusto. That is, until he discovered that the woodland was inhabited by a clan of dire apes (I thought it would be neat to add a realistic ecological system, with the apes being the dominant predators within the area...). The druid, thinking himself powerful enough to take on this pack of ravening, adventurer-eating beasties, slipped away at night while his friends were asleep and went off to do battle. Soon after discovering the lair of the apes, the druid saw that they had a few young amongst them and that all of them were quite thin and malnurished in appearance (the creatures were starving due to the fact that the prey animals they relied upon were being hunted into scarcity by a Behir that had recently lured into the lowland region by a rather nasty villain). Not even taking five minutes to think, the druid says "I shall offer myself to these beasts so that they may live!." Without a second thought, the druid walked out of hiding and into the midst of the apes whom promptly respected his wishes.:weep: What in the name of all that is good and sweet in the Core Rulebooks is that nonsence!! I ask you, all of you, what in the world I can do to rectify this situation. The druid's act was indeed selfless and noble, a fine piece of role-playing for sure, but I believe it was a little...brash. Okay, how about some ideas as to getting his sorry rear back to life once his mortal remains have exited the digestive tracts of a dozen or so killer monkeys.:embarrass
Rillek_Denar 03-19-07, 03:44 AM	Hey man... it is his character... If his Druid was prone to doing things without a great deal of forethought, then it's time to start rolling 6s. Seriously dude, if it's in your character to do it, do it. Just look at my sig.
Ack 03-19-07, 03:44 AM	Well, first you have to give him kudos for acting in character above and beyond. Secondly ... :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! Thirdly ... take the player aside and explain to him that maybe the dire apes will eat well until they finish gnawing on him, but maybe he's just done a silly thing in making them possibly start preying on the villagers. It could possibly have been handled by finding out what was restricting their food supply, and dealing with that. And fourthly, let him rejoin the party, one level down. Maybe he'll think twice next time. Oh, and fifth ... :OMG! :OMG! :OMG!
CCS 03-19-07, 04:04 AM	I....think I'd just let him stay dead. Afterall, though it certainly wasn't what you'd had in mind, you HAVE to admit that it makes for a pretty unique end story. And now you'll know to quietly adjust your "realistic" eco-system to avoid future instances such as this.
CCS 03-19-07, 04:20 AM	I suppose if you REALLY want the druid to survive this, there's only one slightly plausible way to undo it. Have the rest of the PCs(and likely the entire in) awakened in the middle of the night by blood curdling screams from the druids room. When they rush to investigate have them find him screaming and thrashing about in the throws of a horrific nightmare. I can't imagine that dreaming about being eaten alive wouldn't include pain.... Once they wake & calm him, possibly having to cast a heal spell to counter his own thrashing, the party'll be able to gleen the info they need to go investigate/help these starving apes.
sabrewolf 03-19-07, 04:22 AM	First and above all: :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! Now that iīve agreed with former posters, DM to DM, it all deppends on how you deal with death events and what the druidīs player think on all this. - He can roll up a new char, either someone new, someone inspired by that druid, related to that town or something else... - He can be reborn by direct influence from a good deity that was touched by such a noble and selfless act. ( and the deity could, as mentioned by Ack, tell of the little help of his actions and/or point him towards the true quest behind the problem) - You can go "Disney/Brother Bear" style and say Nature herself bring him back some way. He can go back as one of the apes or as another wild beast (gaining natural spellcasting as a bonus for surprising you/ acting as the character) and after finishing the quest recover his formar shape or trade one use of wild shape for a permanent shapeshifting between that beast form and the humanoid one. Ah, and also: :clap: :love: :clap: for him...
graddlin 03-19-07, 04:41 AM	Indeed, evryone, indeed. His actions certainly caught me a little off guard. Though I will certainly admit that I am proud of him for giving up his mortal form to feed a starving pack-o-apes. When I bring him back to life, I am going to have to reward him in some small way as a token of my appreciation for his fantastic role playing. Each of you makes a good point, and I am thankful that there are many of you that will give superb advice when the chips are down for one of your fellow DMs. I salute you all.
JulesCARV 03-19-07, 04:58 AM	I'm probably going to sound like a prick here, and I must admit, that's certainly a self-sacrificing druid, but it seems like a bit of a weird one. Does this druid really regard it as his responsibility to ensure that no animals within an ecosystem starve to death? Is feeding himself to a bunch of apes really the most efficient way of preventing them from starving if he thinks that is his job, rather than feeding the (presumably omnivorous and frugivorous) apes goodberries, which provides 2d4 meals for a medium creature for a day with a single level 1 spell? Anyway, personally I'd just treat it like any other death. The player can start a new character if he wants, whether another druid or something else. He'll be at a lower level, etc. It sounds to me like the player might well be sick of that character, and not really appreciate being brought back to life. Maybe he's found that druids aren't his thing, and he wants to play a barbarian or something. Talk to him about it, and see what he wants before you try to bring his druid back to life. If you force the druid back to life, I think you might both deny the player's desire to play something else and cheapen the druid character's sacrifice. If the player does want the druid to come back to life... hmm... maybe somehow his soul manifests in one of the dire apes who ate him, and effectively he becomes a druid who is wildshaped into a dire ape indefinitely until he voluntarily returns to being a human or wildshapes into something else, at which point his form, mutable from being a druid anyway, returns to that of a human (or whatever)?
Millennium 03-19-07, 06:53 AM	If the player does want the druid to come back to life... hmm... maybe somehow his soul manifests in one of the dire apes who ate him, and effectively he becomes a druid who is wildshaped into a dire ape indefinitely until he voluntarily returns to being a human or wildshapes into something else, at which point his form, mutable from being a druid anyway, returns to that of a human (or whatever)? I was going to suggest something like this: a free reincarnate-style effect as one of the dire apes, presumably with a free awaken effect too (reusing the character's old mental stats rather than rolling them randomly). This would be an interesting reward for a neat roleplay.
Rallek 03-19-07, 06:55 AM	I've got to say that I don't understand all of the "Wow what an awesome roleplayer..." comments on this thread. I would argue that unless he was roleplaying an exceptionally dim witted, or perhaps suicidal character, what he did was extremely poor roleplaying. If he was motivated by concern for the starving animals, one would think he would try to find the cause of the starvation and eliminate it. If he was worried about the apes surviving while he tried to ferret out the cause, he could have bought some food/livestock from the (as I understand it) extremely nearby town, and given that to the apes. Perhaps the investigation into the cause of the starvation would have revealed that the climate has shifted slightly, many dry years in a row or somesuch, and as a result the local ecosystem is changing and can no longer support so many large predators. Perhaps as a character with an extreme attachment to these apes, he would go about the difficult and expensive process of relocating them to a more suitable environment. Forgive me but I just don't see, "Oh a hungry animal of some kind, I must feed myself to it before determining the cause of the hunger, or pondering the possible ramifications of this act on the local ecosystem." as being a sparkling bit of roleplay. Perhaps I just expect druids to think a bit more than that, or perhaps I expect them to maintain some measure of dispassion in keeping with the ultimate indifference of nature, but I don't get it. Happy Gaming
Muspelheim 03-19-07, 07:08 AM	I pretty much agree with JulesCARV and Rallek. I don't really think it's good roleplaying, it's just weird. Unless the druid is really really dumb, there should be much more efficient ways to prevent starvation. And if there isn't, hey, starvation, death, pain are all natural and inevitable within an ecological system. Unless you have the romanticist-hippie notion of what nature really is, i.e.
lastknightleft 03-19-07, 07:41 AM	Also, the player was playing his character as himself. A druid with a wisdom high enough to cast spells, I'm gonna guess he had a 16-18 wisdom, wouldn't have been dumb enough to think that would help the apes at all, (give a man a fish, etc.) that's wisdom baby, not intelligence. and not good roleplaying. I agree talk with the player and find ot what he wants. If he wants to play the druid, awaken the ape. but don't do it for free, awaken the ape with the druids spirit, but not his full memory (good ole amnesia) have him regain it piece by piece (i.e he remebers that he was a druid when he sees the other adventurers that will come looking for him, but he still doesn't remember his abilities etc.) that way you can guide his dull as a brick druid to learn that what he did was stupid when they find said fehir.
Senevri 03-19-07, 08:07 AM	...Wow, what a low-wisdom druid. I mean, it's sorta logical and all, but he just wasted all that good his druidic powers could have done for them...
hiroshimahamster 03-19-07, 09:51 AM	I've never had that happen (except by accident - r.e. player stupidity)... You don't mention his alignment or mental stats - or even if the player wants to still play this druid. It might have happened due to boredom on the player's part and he wanted to get rid of his character quickly, but if he was a true druid, he would have found out the cause of the lack of food and dealt with that. He would get no bonuses for fooliness in my game. Although the ideas floating around about making him an awakened animal do appeal to me on the story front...though in my setting it would have to be a squirrel...I like squirrels... Ahem...I appear to have gone off in a daydream... BACK TO TOPIC!
danielinthewolvesden 03-19-07, 01:20 PM	It's terrible roleplaying and a foolish move. His body would be nothing but one good meal, whereas he could purchase food and feed them for months or better yet, kill off the behir and get the ecosystem back to stability.
Treymordin 03-19-07, 01:30 PM	What a fool!
wonlee76 03-19-07, 01:44 PM	The words chaotic stupid comes to mind. Normally, offering your life to others is a noble gesture but considering the reasons for it and what affect it has, he's basically given the dire apes a temporary respite from starvation. If there's something wrong in the ecosystem to cause malnourished young ones, sacrificing himself doesn't solve that problem, it just solves the problem for a few days. Its like that old saying "Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime." (or something like that). Things that are more reasonable for a druid to do under these circumstances: 1: Hunt for the dire apes and feed them if he absolutely feels he needs to help them. (not the ideal answer since its a temporary solution unless the druid guides the dire apes to more fertile hunting grounds). 2: Do absolutely nothing. Its survival of the fittest and let evolution take its course. 3: Locate the cause of the dire ape's starvation. If its a man-made cause, he could probably try to fix it. If its a natural cause (competing predator), he may have a different problem and there may be no "solution" (Survival of the fittest). Well, needless to say, its his PC and he can do with it as he pleases, including suicide. If you let him have a new PC; I would suggest starting off the new PC at 1 level lower than his druid.
Renvale999 03-19-07, 02:41 PM	For me it would depend on where the apes are, if they will die in the next few hours, then yes it was a selfless act and he should be rewarded. But if they still had a few days, then it would have been better to go back and get the party and find out why. Either way, it takes guts to sacrifice a character.
Hydryh 03-19-07, 02:45 PM	The druid's act was indeed selfless and noble, a fine piece of role-playing for sure... Only if the character had An Int of 5 or less... :rolleyes:
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 03-19-07, 02:48 PM	I wouldn't reward it. As others have said, it wasn't good roleplaying. We'll presume that he has a significant wisdom because he's a druid. From that, he should be able to ascertain that the best way to help a group of wild, starving animals is not to feed yourself to them or even to feed them for an extensive period of time. The former limits your influence to one event, the latter causes the animals to depend on you rather than live truly wild. If he had a low intelligence, he probably wouldn't have concocted a true solution on his own. If he had a high intelligence he might have. But anyone with an above average wisdom should have seen that feeding himself to a pack of wild animals (who happen to live next door to a village) is not the most prudent or effective course of action. Poor or, at least, not well thought out roleplaying on the part of the player. Have him be brought back normally or with a neutral change of circumstances. -As a dire ape, but unable to wildshape, speak with his party, etc. -As his previous character, but blind, weaker (lower physical scores), etc. Hope this helps, do what makes the game better.
Gottwick 03-19-07, 03:35 PM	I ask the players to try not to play extreme types, especially suicidal ones. Character personalities shouldn't detract from the other players' fun. I'll fudge dice a little, but I won't throw them out the window just to keep your PC alive so you can feel 'heroic'.
natural_selection 03-19-07, 04:20 PM	What happens with a carnivore that gets the taste of human flesh? IT WANTS MORE!!! Let the monkey pack, which might still be hungry (after all it was just one skinny human) hunt down the village (outskirts of the town) and kill and eat some humans. Let the rest of the party awaiken in the inn by the terrible screams of mothers watching their children been eaten by monkeys. And let one of the apes be the reincarneted druid, who is still full of shock due to the new sensation of being an ape and his soul permanently being transfered into an animal and who as his fellow apes falls into a blood frenzy too. Let hin gnaw at the child bones until the party steps in and the spark of recognition lets him come back to his senses to finally understand his error.
lastknightleft 03-19-07, 04:38 PM	What happens with a carnivore that gets the taste of human flesh? IT WANTS MORE!!! Let the monkey pack, which might still be hungry (after all it was just one skinny human) hunt down the village (outskirts of the town) and kill and eat some humans. Let the rest of the party awaiken in the inn by the terrible screams of mothers watching their children been eaten by monkeys. And let one of the apes be the reincarneted druid, who is still full of shock due to the new sensation of being an ape and his soul permanently being transfered into an animal and who as his fellow apes falls into a blood frenzy too. Let hin gnaw at the child bones until the party steps in and the spark of recognition lets him come back to his senses to finally understand his error. There is a good one too
Treymordin 03-19-07, 05:20 PM	i like that!
Engilbrand 03-19-07, 06:33 PM	I agree. That was just dumb. Worst. Druid. Ever. To be a true servant to those around you, you must SERVE. That doesn't mean serve your body to them. It means that you do what needs to be done to aid them. He could have cast Goodberry and given it to them. How many different Druid spells would have helped in this situation? To just say, "I feed myself to them." means that he didn't want to play his character anymore. I think he should roll a new one.
Wolf72 03-19-07, 06:47 PM	good idea: feed the apes bad idea: with your own body!!! low int, med/high wis (faith and what not) ... just me but I would think the druid could have gotten some food for the apes and formed a watcher relationship with them
Eric888 03-19-07, 06:56 PM	usually if a charecter kills himself or uncharacteristicaly and stupidly puts himself in danger it is because he is bored of the charecter and doesn't want to play him anymore. regaurdless, you have no choice but to kill his charecter. letting him out of it alive is not an option.
Far_Traveler 03-19-07, 07:06 PM	"Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime." Nonono, the saying is "Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life." On-topic though, what he did was as low-wis you could get. Ah well, natural selection and whatnot. Later, have them come across a druid who was compiling a druidic textbook, and they come on it with his characters face displayed, with the druidic words saying "stupidest druid ever"
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 03-19-07, 07:09 PM	....a little "too noble" for me...
graddlin 03-19-07, 08:29 PM	Only if the character had An Int of 5 or less... :rolleyes: ......indeed, his character's intelligence was a less than wonderful 7.
graddlin 03-19-07, 08:44 PM	Indeed, friends. You each make a good point and I enjoy the feedback. The player does like his character and did indeed think it would be an act of charity to sacrifice himself. Role Playing is what you want it to be, so I must disagree with those of you who state that his actions were poor Role Playing. Come now, none of us can say that we have not done something less than intelligent in the game (though I agree that the druid's actions were quite brash and completely unforseen). Now, onto business. The druid's Intelligence is a whopping 7, though his Wisdom mounts up at 16. (he chose the lowest score he rolled for his Intelligence in order to reflect the fact that he was raised with little schooling; he even took illiteracy to further show his lack of learning). The said character's Alignment is Neutral, and he is/was predisposed to liking animals more than humans (the player always makes new and interesting personalities for his characters, though he has never gone so far as to become compost). Now, Role-Playing comments aside, any further advice about the situation would be appreciated greatly.
graddlin 03-20-07, 12:46 AM	What happens with a carnivore that gets the taste of human flesh? IT WANTS MORE!!! Let the monkey pack, which might still be hungry (after all it was just one skinny human) hunt down the village (outskirts of the town) and kill and eat some humans. Let the rest of the party awaiken in the inn by the terrible screams of mothers watching their children been eaten by monkeys. And let one of the apes be the reincarneted druid, who is still full of shock due to the new sensation of being an ape and his soul permanently being transfered into an animal and who as his fellow apes falls into a blood frenzy too. Let hin gnaw at the child bones until the party steps in and the spark of recognition lets him come back to his senses to finally understand his error. An interesting proposal. I shall take this into consideration. Good bit of creativity, friend.
Greykit 03-20-07, 01:11 AM	I might be reading this wrong but didn't the druid start out going into the forest because he thought he could deal with the apes on his own? The druid, thinking himself powerful enough to take on this pack of ravening, adventurer-eating beasties, slipped away at night while his friends were asleep and went off to do battle. And then when he saw that the young were starving he sacrificed himself as dinner. Unless he plays a character that is constantly changing his mind, and is extremely unwise this is terrible roleplaying. Any druid would know that there are almost always young with any animal pack like that, what did he expect to do kill off all the adults and hand raise the young because by killing the parents he would have probably been condemning them to starvation or predation anyway.
Hideous Phidias 03-20-07, 01:40 AM	I have a question, he went here todo battle with the apes and ended up looking at them and saying oh their hungry let me feed them myself? One doing battle use to mean kill, if this has changed in DND then I need the update. Two any druid would look at the apes that were starving and say it is part of the great circle of life. To many animals means not enough food thus some go with out and then die, that is life my freind. I know it is cool out look but it is the true neutral point of veiw of nature. I say you lookat him shack your head then tell him to make a new character one level lower then the last. And if he comes back with a druid through the biggest book you have at him.
Dochenor 03-20-07, 03:41 AM	How quickly the tide changes. The first sevenn or so readers thought "great role-playing" and "noble sacrifice". Then it all changed. Ouch. Oh well, the only i agree with is asked the player what his real intentions were and are. And act accordingly.
Treymordin 03-20-07, 10:36 AM	It sounds to me like the druid no longer wanted to play that character. I would not reward him at all for doing something foolish.
Quoriil 03-20-07, 11:40 AM	I'm gonna guess he had a 16-18 wisdom, wouldn't have been dumb enough to think that would help the apes at all, (give a man a fish, etc.)... He, in a way, is teaching them to fish. For human townsfolk. Honestly what giant carnivorous ape could pass up such yummy, fatty, defenseless morsels.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-20-07, 11:44 AM	I ask you, all of you, what in the world I can do to rectify this situation. There is nothing here that requires rectification. IMO a player who is willing to sacrifice his beloved PC for entirely in-character reasons is doing a top-notch job. I'll grant, however, it was not necessarily the cleverest solution - particulalry from a meta-standpoint - but I could see it being an appropriate response for a dedicated druid. Kudos to your player for being willing to sacrifice his own PC, though I do not think this was necessarily the most ideal or dramatically potent moment to do so.
Yakman 03-20-07, 11:45 AM	The player did not roleplay well. A real druid would have left, returned with some food, given it to the apes, and then told his companions that they would have to do something about the local behir problem. A druid does not believe in short-term solutions. How you handle this in the group? I dunno... but you should explain the methods that a druid would use would never include suicide in this manner to the players (all of them, not just the one).
MechMage 03-20-07, 06:26 PM	Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm not a nature expert, but why would the gorillas eat him? I know they're carniverous, and dire, but humans are still pretty close to gorillas, and it would be borderline canibalism. Last time I check, monkeys have a strong aversion to canibalism. Why wouldn't the monkeys just chase him out of their cave? Also, that is not good role-playing. Its shows no understanding of the character's phylosophy. Unless this was a very very very stupid druid with no ranks in knowledge (nature), then he wasn't role-playing
Icewraith 03-20-07, 07:03 PM	A few notes. Nutritionally speaking, humans are the spam of the food chain. Low in fat, lots of bones, etc. The druid probably doesn't know this, but he probably makes a subpar meal. I give the druid 10 points for in the moment self-sacrificing unexpectedly cool roleplaying... and -10 points in the long-term planning department. Which sounds pretty good for a low-int high wis character (the guys who rattle off the quotes about fishing for a day tend to be high int high wis types, this guy sounds more like he butchered it to "Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day, turn a man into fish and he will feed another man.") I think he played the character well, but in the end he should probably lose a level and suffer the indignity of being resurrected from monkey excrement. You could have the party deal with one or two rogue monkeys who start to prey on the humans, but hopefully the PCs will figure out that the bigger monster is the issue.
mcnoo 03-20-07, 07:11 PM	Now the beasts have a taste for human flesh, they begin to hunt for more, sneaking into human villages at night and tearing people apart in their beds to feast on their sweet marrow. Nice going "hero", have people for miles around curse his name and have him go down in history as a mass murderer. We should send this tactic as a suggestion to Bob Geldorf.
graddlin 03-21-07, 12:43 AM	Maybe I'm missing something, and I'm not a nature expert, but why would the gorillas eat him? I know they're carniverous, and dire, but humans are still pretty close to gorillas, and it would be borderline canibalism. Last time I check, monkeys have a strong aversion to canibalism. Why wouldn't the monkeys just chase him out of their cave? Also, that is not good role-playing. Its shows no understanding of the character's phylosophy. Unless this was a very very very stupid druid with no ranks in knowledge (nature), then he wasn't role-playing It's a fantasy role-playing game. They eat what I want them to eat. But, to be as close to realism as possible, you need only look at the chimp: they kill and eat one another during clan wars quite often. Well, after they dismember the loosers and deficate all over them.
danielinthewolvesden 03-21-07, 02:36 AM	How quickly the tide changes. The first sevenn or so readers thought "great role-playing" and "noble sacrifice". Then it all changed. Ouch. Oh well, the only i agree with is asked the player what his real intentions were and are. And act accordingly. No so. Only poster #3 complimented the roleplaying but even there: "Well, first you have to give him kudos for acting in character above and beyond. Thirdly ... take the player aside and explain to him that maybe the dire apes will eat well until they finish gnawing on him, but maybe he's just done a silly thing in making them possibly start preying on the villagers. It could possibly have been handled by finding out what was restricting their food supply, and dealing with that." Posters # 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and so forth said it was foolish or terrible roleplaying.
AffableDoomwalker 03-21-07, 04:14 AM	Now, Role-Playing comments aside, any further advice about the situation would be appreciated greatly. It kinda ties in though - his intention (OOC) is unclear to me, and really, you have to make your decision based on his intentions. Taking all things into consideration, we have: A low-Int, med/hi-Wis Druid who gains a tract of land, learns about a... ... pack of ravening, adventurer-eating beasties, slipped away at night while his friends were asleep and went off to do battle ... ... which is exactly what he does, until... ... soon after discovering the lair of the apes, the druid saw that they had a few young amongst them and that all of them were quite thin and malnurished in appearance (the creatures were starving due to the fact that the prey animals they relied upon were being hunted into scarcity by a Behir that had recently lured into the lowland region by a rather nasty villain). Not even taking five minutes to think, the druid says "I shall offer myself to these beasts so that they may live!." Without a second thought, the druid walked out of hiding and into the midst of the apes whom promptly respected his wishes ... ... and, well, you want him back alive? I'm not certain about the specifics, but I'm almost certain that qualifies as complete and total death - he's willingly died (thus, he probably doesn't want to come back), he's been devoured, entirely I assume (dire anything don't play) and so there isn't anything/much to resurrect, short of a True Resurrection (which, I believe, still needs you to WANT to come back), or a Wish (which I doubt your characters have access to). I'm fairly certain that your PC is no more (short of your invoking Rule 0, which I don't recommend). Now that thats been said... a short analysis of your Player's intentions, through the role playing of his PC: - Unintelligent, but relatively insightful guy gets tract of land - Said guy is a Druid, an impassive servant of the natural order (see: Neutral) - Said guy learns of Dire Animals that he knows eats adventurers - Said guy goes forth to kill the adventurer eating animals - Said guy sees said animals (which he has set out to kill) are starving - Said suddenly changes his mind - Said [impassive servant of the natural order] gets self killed (in order to feed the animals he initially set out to kill) So a Druid... a [I]Druid... decides he is going to go out into the woods and kill a pack of Dire Beasts in their natural habitat, because he thinks he can take them on (or because they eat adventurers? I'm not clear on that one), he takes one look at them, sees they're starving, and suddenly, this impassive servant of the natural order, who set out to kill animals in their natural habitat, decides he no longer wishes to kill the animals, but rather - feed them. Personally. Himself. Literally. He doesn't try to communicate with the animals and find out whats going on, he doesn't try to use his spellcasting ability to provide them with temporary aid (which, as unintelligent as he may have been, he would certainly know he could conjure up some Goodberries). He just walks into a Dire Ape's gullet. I'm amazed, astounded, thunderstruck. I'm thinking your Player didn't want to play as that Druid any longer. That is the only logical explanation I can think up for that sort of behavior. Otherwise, your Player was attempting, and succeeded in giving a perfect example on how to not portray Druids (impassive, neutral, non-"lets go and kill animals in the forest", servants of the natural order). One way or the other... no reward for him. Bad Player.
lastknightleft 03-21-07, 08:37 AM	Look, I understand that the player thought he was playing out the low Int of his character, and I agree a 7 int is Forest Gump quality. But, with a 16 wisdom that character would have known that his sacrifice wouldn't help anything. As to good/bad roleplaying, I'm not worried about whether it was good/bad as I've just chalked it up to misunderstanding the value of his stats. You say that the player likes his druid, fine. Allow him a resurection, granted that will be hard since no druid is around, so rather. Awaken a Dire Ape, his spirit now inhabits a new body. But here is the kicker? what level is the party? a dire ape has Monstrous HD and LA so when you add them together to get his ECL you'll have to lower his char level to match (remember to take away a level, he did die no matter how noble), which makes sense, transfering bodies without res magic is so strenuous it would cause memory loss (represented by level loss) his XP will stay the same and his ECL will advance with the party. If his ECL is higher than the party, then he wont have any druid levels for a while and have to play as an awakened ape until the party either A) finds a druid capable of ressurection to create a new body for him (which still might result in monstrous form, or B) player decides he wants to stay ape (7 int, hell the char might think the new body is even better.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-21-07, 12:01 PM	I give the druid 10 points for in the moment self-sacrificing unexpectedly cool roleplaying... and -10 points in the long-term planning department. Or more accurately, to quote Zaphod Beelbrox, "OK, so ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for good thinking." The OP said that the PC "offered" himself to the apes. There is no reason that the apes had to accept. They could've just knocked the hell out of him and tossed him out of the grove.
Seldriss 03-21-07, 01:05 PM	Some of the answers make very good points, especially the one about giving the apes the taste for human flesh (scary, if you think about it). Well, it is possible your player reacted the wrong way. Maybe he had some issue with his character or with the campaign. Or maybe he was confused. He lost his character, so there is no reason to lecture him or punish him more. He might need some guidance about roleplaying, or about the game in general... Consider one thing : Druids, being part of the nature, believe in reincarnation. Natural circle of life, eternal renewal... So "suicide" doesn't have the same meaning for them, as they have no reason to doubt about their rebirth. Just reincarnate the character (if the player agrees).
Arganis 03-21-07, 01:29 PM	It's terrible roleplaying and a foolish move. His body would be nothing but one good meal, whereas he could purchase food and feed them for months or better yet, kill off the behir and get the ecosystem back to stability. I'm joining those in the "Dumb move, bad roleplaying camp", unless of course he was trying to roleplay an idiot of Quixotic proportions. The druid obviously did nothing druid-like to learn about the natural order of his newfound land, and gave his life needlessly in a way that solved absolutely nothing. If a druid did nothing but cast Create Food and Water to feed animals for his entire life he would have been a better druid than this one. Geez. Starving Dire Apes? There never was a better use for Goodberry. Now... use a couple 1st level spellslots or kill myself... let me see...
AffableDoomwalker 03-21-07, 08:08 PM	I don't think a resurrection is in order, like I said, he willingly died. Self-annihilation usually isn't conducive to wanting to come back to life. And there's no indication that if he lacked the foresight to consider the conundrum before him (what with the Dire beasts he did/did not want to kill/feed), he probably lacked the foresight to consider his resurrection options. The awakening idea is a good one, but again, the P part of PC didn't seem to really be enjoying his character (or playing it much like a Druid would - remember, he went out to kill adventurer eating Dire Apes, in their natural habitat, just because. He sees them, and instead of doing a very un-druidic such as killing animals in their natural habitat (just because), he decided he'd rather feed them. Himself. So the Dire Animals eat yet another adventurer, and a formerly confused, and badly in need of guidance concerning his creedo-Druid is now dead. I'm thinking the Player needs a new character sheet, not a reincarnated Druid.
Sinis 03-21-07, 10:33 PM	I suspect that the player was perhaps not enjoying himself for one reason or another, and wants to create a new character, or (more unlikely) leave your group. Let 'em do what he wants, it's best for all in the end.
graddlin 03-21-07, 11:15 PM	Well spoke, friends. Your input is valuable and appreciated. None of you have put forth a bad opinion and, respecting your words as fellow gamers, I shall take into account each point put forward. Thank you all, my friends. I only hope that I can aid in a future matter that any of you may need advice on and thus repay the favor. Take care.
The Jake 03-22-07, 02:29 AM	You have a retarded player. I have them too. There there... *sympathetic pat* Everything will be ok...
graddlin 03-23-07, 04:25 AM	You have a retarded player. I have them too. There there... *sympathetic pat* Everything will be ok... Thank you, friend. That actually brought a smile to my face and made my day. Take care.:D
Ack 03-23-07, 09:17 AM	This does bring to mind one player. Let's call him Terry. Terry had a way of innocently acting in such a way that would result in the death of his character - all the while looking abosolutely astonished that this is the case. In a superhero game, playing a character whose powers revolved around electricity, he sat down in a bar and ordered a glass of battery acid. His intent was to drink it; battery acid is found in batteries, batteries generate electricity, he generated electricity, therefore he could safely drink battery acid. We were all :OMG! after we heard his logic. Even the GM. In another game, we were playing Werewolf the Apocalypse. He was playing a fairly by-the-book (well, if werewolves had a book) character, who got captured and locked in a small cell by Black Spiral Dancers (crazy werewolves that have 'danced the Spiral' and thus ended up serving the Wyrm, the werewolves' deadliest enemy). He got it in his head that they were going to force him to dance the Spiral and turn him into a Dancer. Despite all of us attempting to tell him that it can only be done by those willing to do it, he told the GM he was using his extra-sharp claws to rip his own throat out. Despite a horrendous difficulty, he finally managed it too. About an hour before the rescue party broke down the cell door. In another game, his character was captured and tied to the branch of a tree, about a hundred feet off the ground. Despite being warned of the consequences by the GM, he wriggled free of his bonds - and fell the hundred feet. Died. I could go on. This guy was scary. He didn't have any more character deaths than ours, but his were nearly all self-inflicted.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-23-07, 09:24 AM	In a superhero game, playing a character whose powers revolved around electricity, he sat down in a bar and ordered a glass of battery acid. His intent was to drink it; battery acid is found in batteries, batteries generate electricity, he generated electricity, therefore he could safely drink battery acid. the :OMG!: in this case should apply to the fact the DM had the bar stock a large amount of battery acid. Personally, I'd have allowed it. It's funny, and has it's own bizzarely twisted logic - much like the superhero genre in general - so why not?
Ack 03-23-07, 09:28 AM	Trust me, he would have gone from there to believing he was immune to acid attacks of all kinds. He had a habit of extrapolating in strange directions. It was in everyone's best interests to nip it in the bud ASAP.
lastknightleft 03-23-07, 10:34 AM	To all those saying that the player was having a problem with his character or didn't like his character please pay attention to posts the OP has already posted saying that the player enjoyed playing the character and mearly made a foolish choice. So please stop posting about how the player must not be having fun or have a problem with his character.
Wraith7153 03-23-07, 10:29 PM	Wow... never encountered that problem, but if I did I think I would do a secret knowledge(nature) roll to determine if the druid can figure out why the apes are starving and telling him why if he passed. If he failed; however, it has always been my style to fudge outcomes in favor of the PCs as long as they haven't done something stupid or otherwise earned death. I would definately classify this as a ridiculously stupid, if not somewhat amusing, act worthy of instant and automatic death. The one factor that would keep me from doing so would be his strong loyalty to correct roleplaying (D&D being a RolePlaying Game after all) and, as such, I would have to say that I would probably have the apes go crazy and the creature responsible for their plight to appear, giving him a chance to save them without sacrificing himself. Hmm, I just read a few more of the posts. This seems more serious than I tought. I would cause the outcome he wishes to avoid happen in such a way that, had he been alive he may have been able to prevent it (in the werewolf case, having him raised via a mage thereby making him, or at least his body, willing). After this happens a few times he might get the picture and become more creative in his "escapes".
CelestialBarbarian 03-23-07, 10:46 PM	......indeed, his character's intelligence was a less than wonderful 7. Have you talked to him about what he intended when he sacrificed the character? Does he even want the character back? Maybe it was just a way of removing the druid, in character, to make way for a different character. I guess I read too quickly and missed the part where the OP said that the player did not want to lose the character. In that situation, where the character committed suicide but the player really didn't want him to, I'd probably just either just say that it never happened, or better yet, as someone suggested, that it was a dream. I have, from time to time, had PCs have a dream encounter which the players thought was real. One DM, running an Eberron campaign, had a while storyline that turned out to be just a dream. At the very end it turned out that my warforged character, who appeared in the story, had no idea what these guys dreamed--that everything I roleplayed hadn't happened to him, since warforged can't sleep or dream. When they told him the story, however, he got the same experience that they'd gotten for having the dream encounter. I could see where someone might not like this situation, but I had an absolute blast, in no way diminished, and perhaps even enhanced, by the fact that after the fact in character my warforged didn't even know about it until the rest of the party managed to wake up. As I recall, toward the very end of the dream (and we still didn't know it was a dream) characters had to make some sort of will save or something to get out of the dream. Since my warforged was a barbarian/fighter, he had a terrible Will save, and kept failing. As a result all the other characters got out first--but then it turned out not to matter, since the way I was playing my warforged was just in the minds of the other PCs and the mind of my warforged hadn't actually been in the dream anyway.