Character templates and monstrous humanoids, are they too strong? Too weak? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character templates and monstrous humanoids, are they too strong? Too weak? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
albinomonkeyking
05-09-07, 10:10 PM I know it may seem stupid but it took me forever to finally understand the system for playing certain monstrous humanoids. Now that I fully understand it (taking the levels of the race AND having the level adjustment) it seemed a bit too weak.
As a practice I put a human barbarian (lvl 9) against a minotaur barbarian (ECL 9) with the same base stats and everything. The minotaur seemed to actually have the upper hand in the fight although a crit by the human won it for him.

Here is where things get problematic: I saw that some templates offer things very similar to races but without the levels. So, I created a Half-dragon character to face the minotaur. Again, both were matched in ECL, base stats, etc., the end result was that the Half-dragon was almost equally matched in AC, plus to hit, etc., to his higher leveled minotaur counter-part but for the exception of higher health and better abilities (immunity to paralysis, sleep, fire) and he was a lvl 6 barbarian while the minotaur remained a lvl 1 with monstrous humanoid levels.

The question: Is that fair? If the minotaur one-upped the human, and the template one-upped the minotaur, doesn't that seem a bit unbalanced?

Now keep in mind, the issue is not who can make a better character with only a few level differences between the two, I am not interested in that, I want to know in general if it offers an advantage. It seems like templates would provide an unbalanced element (as it appears they have done with one of my players in the majority of my games, it is all he plays)

So, in the end are monstrous races and their required levels weaker? Is it simply better (in general) to stay at low plussed races or base races? Are templates the better of the three options and do they suffer from declining value as levels progress?
trapspringer
05-09-07, 10:25 PM Your results are the accepted norm around here (although I don't necessarily agree with the following assessment, but I will clarify momentarily).

Generally, class levels are the ****, just as a generaly guideline. They give you special abilities, HP, and more importantly HD along with all those other goodies.

Now, the minotaur has a bunch of monsterous HD, which are like weak class levels, in addition to a LA. It is generally thought that class levels are superior to all monster HD with the exception of Dragon HD, which are thought to be about comprable (in the same way as Aristocrat levels are comprable to PC levels).

OK, so given this, why the hell did your dragon, which by the above logic should have sucked the big one, kick so much donkey?

Now, here's how it really works (and the clarification I mentioned earlier):

It depends on your level and the template.

Every class has certain critical points where they gain a sudden increase of power in relation to the classes around it (here after called a RPB, or a relative power boost). Some classes, like the fighter, experience this early and then fall off. Others, like the wizard, hit an RPB every time they gain access to a new spell level (and especially when the get 3rd, 5th, and 9th level spells do they see a disgusting power surge relative to the other party members).

This is important to understand for a couple of reasons. The first is that a LA is like a one-time RPB for which you trade off or delay later RPBs. This means that it will fall in value (just like third level spells or whirlwind attack). The second reason this is important is 'cuz it will change when you get access to those critical boosts which keep you on the level with your party. (On a side note, a barbarina is fairly front-loaded. He doesn't see a real kick-up in power level until greater rage, Lvl 11. Until then he just kinda slowly gets better at killing and getting killed.)

The short answer: If you're low-level, magic abilities granted by templates are good. If you're high level, you're lookin' for immunities and minor stat boosts because those things are universally useful and don't fade in value.

Also, some templates suck and other rock. There is no hard-and-fast rule.
Comus
05-09-07, 10:30 PM Well, first, templates and monstrous races are no better balanced than any other part of the game. That is, it's mostly a best-guess by a large number of different people who have different ideas on what's powerful and what isn't.

That said, there's kind of an unofficial design decision by WotC to discourage players from using monstrous races. They tend to be somewhat weaker than standard PC races because of that, though there are some standouts that are actually worth it. Obviously, they're best with anything that doesn't suffer from a loss of caster levels.
albinomonkeyking
05-09-07, 10:52 PM Any DMs have rules of thumb against or for templates? (Anything you allow, don't allow etc.)
trapspringer
05-09-07, 11:02 PM Anything not 3.5 (meaning Savage Species is right out, mostly 'cuz the Feral template is broken).

Everything else is self-correcting at low levels (the PC dies because of low HP) or uselss at high levels (because by the time they won't die, their abilities negate the template).

Just watch what you allow at levels 5-12. That's your danger zone. Honestly most of the 3.5 stuff is pretty OK as a once-off thing.

Watch out for lycanthropes (who have high DR) and anythign that otherwise negates basically nay non-magical and not specifically designed to kill the creature.
Nom
05-10-07, 01:44 AM As a stated policy decision, the designers chose to err on the side of too high rather than too low with LAs. The design goal of a LA is that the non-standard character is thus not better than an equivalent standard PC. As with any set of judgements about a complex system, they occasionally mess up.

It's also worth noting the difference between CR and LA. CR reflects the value of the creature as an opponent, while LA reflects the value of a creature as a PC. Some abilities, especially powerful "at will" abilities, are only moderately effect over the course of a single encounter but extremely effective for a PC (who has 4 encounters per day over many game days). Thus, simple one-on-one match-ups aren't always a good judge of LA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
albinomonkeyking 05-09-07, 10:10 PM	I know it may seem stupid but it took me forever to finally understand the system for playing certain monstrous humanoids. Now that I fully understand it (taking the levels of the race AND having the level adjustment) it seemed a bit too weak. As a practice I put a human barbarian (lvl 9) against a minotaur barbarian (ECL 9) with the same base stats and everything. The minotaur seemed to actually have the upper hand in the fight although a crit by the human won it for him. Here is where things get problematic: I saw that some templates offer things very similar to races but without the levels. So, I created a Half-dragon character to face the minotaur. Again, both were matched in ECL, base stats, etc., the end result was that the Half-dragon was almost equally matched in AC, plus to hit, etc., to his higher leveled minotaur counter-part but for the exception of higher health and better abilities (immunity to paralysis, sleep, fire) and he was a lvl 6 barbarian while the minotaur remained a lvl 1 with monstrous humanoid levels. The question: Is that fair? If the minotaur one-upped the human, and the template one-upped the minotaur, doesn't that seem a bit unbalanced? Now keep in mind, the issue is not who can make a better character with only a few level differences between the two, I am not interested in that, I want to know in general if it offers an advantage. It seems like templates would provide an unbalanced element (as it appears they have done with one of my players in the majority of my games, it is all he plays) So, in the end are monstrous races and their required levels weaker? Is it simply better (in general) to stay at low plussed races or base races? Are templates the better of the three options and do they suffer from declining value as levels progress?
trapspringer 05-09-07, 10:25 PM	Your results are the accepted norm around here (although I don't necessarily agree with the following assessment, but I will clarify momentarily). Generally, class levels are the ****, just as a generaly guideline. They give you special abilities, HP, and more importantly HD along with all those other goodies. Now, the minotaur has a bunch of monsterous HD, which are like weak class levels, in addition to a LA. It is generally thought that class levels are superior to all monster HD with the exception of Dragon HD, which are thought to be about comprable (in the same way as Aristocrat levels are comprable to PC levels). OK, so given this, why the hell did your dragon, which by the above logic should have sucked the big one, kick so much donkey? Now, here's how it really works (and the clarification I mentioned earlier): It depends on your level and the template. Every class has certain critical points where they gain a sudden increase of power in relation to the classes around it (here after called a RPB, or a relative power boost). Some classes, like the fighter, experience this early and then fall off. Others, like the wizard, hit an RPB every time they gain access to a new spell level (and especially when the get 3rd, 5th, and 9th level spells do they see a disgusting power surge relative to the other party members). This is important to understand for a couple of reasons. The first is that a LA is like a one-time RPB for which you trade off or delay later RPBs. This means that it will fall in value (just like third level spells or whirlwind attack). The second reason this is important is 'cuz it will change when you get access to those critical boosts which keep you on the level with your party. (On a side note, a barbarina is fairly front-loaded. He doesn't see a real kick-up in power level until greater rage, Lvl 11. Until then he just kinda slowly gets better at killing and getting killed.) The short answer: If you're low-level, magic abilities granted by templates are good. If you're high level, you're lookin' for immunities and minor stat boosts because those things are universally useful and don't fade in value. Also, some templates suck and other rock. There is no hard-and-fast rule.
Comus 05-09-07, 10:30 PM	Well, first, templates and monstrous races are no better balanced than any other part of the game. That is, it's mostly a best-guess by a large number of different people who have different ideas on what's powerful and what isn't. That said, there's kind of an unofficial design decision by WotC to discourage players from using monstrous races. They tend to be somewhat weaker than standard PC races because of that, though there are some standouts that are actually worth it. Obviously, they're best with anything that doesn't suffer from a loss of caster levels.
albinomonkeyking 05-09-07, 10:52 PM	Any DMs have rules of thumb against or for templates? (Anything you allow, don't allow etc.)
trapspringer 05-09-07, 11:02 PM	Anything not 3.5 (meaning Savage Species is right out, mostly 'cuz the Feral template is broken). Everything else is self-correcting at low levels (the PC dies because of low HP) or uselss at high levels (because by the time they won't die, their abilities negate the template). Just watch what you allow at levels 5-12. That's your danger zone. Honestly most of the 3.5 stuff is pretty OK as a once-off thing. Watch out for lycanthropes (who have high DR) and anythign that otherwise negates basically nay non-magical and not specifically designed to kill the creature.
Nom 05-10-07, 01:44 AM	As a stated policy decision, the designers chose to err on the side of too high rather than too low with LAs. The design goal of a LA is that the non-standard character is thus not better than an equivalent standard PC. As with any set of judgements about a complex system, they occasionally mess up. It's also worth noting the difference between CR and LA. CR reflects the value of the creature as an opponent, while LA reflects the value of a creature as a PC. Some abilities, especially powerful "at will" abilities, are only moderately effect over the course of a single encounter but extremely effective for a PC (who has 4 encounters per day over many game days). Thus, simple one-on-one match-ups aren't always a good judge of LA.