Character Wealth by Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character Wealth by Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bryarr
02-05-06, 07:47 AM I'm trying to carefully control my player's wealth levels using the character wealth by level table on p135 of the DMG. I've never done this before, so I have some questions.

When giving out treasure in attempts to keep up with the table's numbers, should I take the fact that the players will be keeping certain items and selling others? For example, they fight 10 hobgoblin warriors, each wearing chainmail. Should I count that as 1500gp (10 times the price of chainmail, 150gp), or 750gp, because I know they will be selling it?

Bry
nissir2000
02-05-06, 09:24 AM I would use the 750 since that would be what he players end up getting. Be wary of using the tables like this though. Your players could fight say animals that tend to have little to no treasure at lower levels, but then up fighting a small dragon that has double or tripple treasure at higher levels. Tables like this are more of a guide, and I wouldn't worry about them much. Treasure = power so I try not to give out a lot of it right away or the game just becomes too easy.
Bryarr
02-05-06, 03:00 PM I'm using a modified module, which has all the treasure set out, however my party is getting experience at a different rate that normal, so I'm checking out the treasure given out and modifying it so that the party will hit the proper character wealth levels at the appropriate levels.

Also, how should I take into account items with uses/charges? Say I give out four level 3 potions (750gp each, 3,000gp total), and count that as part of their player wealth. Then, 2 levels later, then use all four of those potions. Do I now count their wealth as 3,000gp less than before they used the potion?

Bry
The Abominable Darkling
02-05-06, 03:34 PM When deciding how much an item of treasure is worth, you should almost always count half its gp-value. The only exception is if the item is a permanent item that you expect the party to keep. Using your hobgoblin example, the party's "wealth" will have increased by 1500 gp while they hold the armour, but half of this will disappear when they convert it into gold. Remember that your goal is to have the PC's wealth conform to the recommended level over the long run. If you count items' full gp-value, then the players will end up dramatically under-equipped.

Count all charged items as half-value regardless of whether or not you expect the PCs to keep and use them.
Edymnion
02-05-06, 03:40 PM Basically, anything the players are keeping/using counts 100% towards their character wealth limit. If they sell an item, they get half price for it. They just reduced their character wealth by doing that, freeing some up for other things (not to mention the liquidation value).

If the PC has something, count it's value against their character wealth 100%. When they sell it, they get half value for it, and their character wealth decreases, in exchange for the gold to buy other things.

You can just go with the half-value to start with, but then you have to be careful that they don't decide to keep it later on, which means you undercharged them.

Just keep track of how much stuff they have at any given time. Its fine to be a little under or over the limit, just try to keep it more or less at the proscribed level and you'll be fine.
astute1
02-05-06, 04:12 PM It's very difficult to pre-emptively determine which items a character is going to keep or sell. As you suggested, count 100% for items the party is going to keep, and 50% (or whatever "selling" counts as) for other items. You're still going to end up off over time, so you'll need to get your players to send you summary totals every once in a while, so you can see who is ahead/behind.
The Abominable Darkling
02-08-06, 12:32 AM Actually, I don't think you should track the characters actual wealth *at all*. Here's why. Suppose you have a fighter who spends half his gold on potions (which he uses frequently). If you add up his wealth at some point, you'll find it far below the recommended level. But if you give him extra gold or items to compensate, then you've effectively given him those potions for free. I think it's best to simply give out treasure close to the recommended amount and let the PCs decide how much to convert into permanent items and how much to blow on power-ups.
astute1
02-08-06, 07:19 AM Darkling, the treasure tables in the DMG do assume a certain amount is going to be spent on potions, scrolls, and other expendables. That's why there are two columns, character wealth, and total gp earned. Assuming that all your players spend evenly on these items, it should never be a problem.
DMDaddy
02-08-06, 11:16 AM I keep the characters under the amount listed in the DMG. I tell them in advance that regardless of what they find, it will be adjusted at the end of the quest/dungeon to reflect the amounts in the DMG.

This means that sometimes I subtract gold from the characters. As the DMG states, this is a way to control character power. In this way, my 7th level party won't have +5 armor, or a horn of valhalla.

Look at it this way: (numbers may vary depending on circumstances)
7th level party with +5 armor = AC around 26-28
7th level monsters have a BAB of +7 to +9 = monsters will rarely hit
The Abominable Darkling
02-08-06, 11:17 AM The tables assume that they'll spend approximately 10%, as I recall. However, my point is that the players should have to decide whether or not to buy potions, stoneskins, and so forth knowing that, while they get a short term benefit, it will reduce their power level in the long run. If you constantly give them treasure to increase their wealth to the "expected" level, then there's no choice at all. The players can (and should) spend on disposable items to their heart's content. It won't cost them a thing.

Edit: I should also point out that this scenario leads to the PCs being overly powerful. Spells like stoneskin have a gp cost because they are so powerful. The cost is intended to balance this. Remove the cost and you remove the balance. DMDaddy, if I were playing in your game, why wouldn't I cast stoneskin on myself and the party before every single fight?
DMDaddy
02-08-06, 06:10 PM DMDaddy, if I were playing in your game, why wouldn't I cast stoneskin on myself and the party before every single fight?

I think you mis understood my post. I limit my players according to "wealth by level" in the DMG. My players have learned to value their potions and will only give "stoneskin" to players who are weak and have low AC.

My 11th level group all average about 85,000 gp per character. This includes all carried items and gold. I think the DMG suggests 66,000 gp. Most of the time, they have less than 15,000 gps in their pockets (bag's of holding). Most of this is spent on healing potions before each adventure. Some players have become smart and sold some of their prized possessions for money to buy more useful items. Some times they even pool their money and resources together to get items over the 66,000 limit. This is so, especially if they know they need a powerful item.
Thurbane
02-08-06, 09:02 PM I personally find the whole Wealth by Level totally unneccesary. It's a great guideline for starting DMs, but that's about all. I totally disregard it.

Now some people will harp at me saying "but the challenges by level assume wealth for buying magic items and equipment"...to which I reply that I don't even allow players to buy magic items. Shock, horror, gasp!

I play an "oldschool" campaign, where my players get the magic items they are lucky enough to find. Occasionally they may find an NPC willing to part with a particular item for cash. And I have a good feel for my players party. I throw challenges at them appropriate to their abilities. And somehow manage to run a fun and balanced game.

Now, if people want to use that Wealth by Level table, all fine and well, more power to you. But please don't act like a balanced game cannot be run without slavish adherance to WbL...
ShadowDragon8685
02-08-06, 09:27 PM I personally find the whole Wealth by Level totally unneccesary. It's a great guideline for starting DMs, but that's about all. I totally disregard it.

Now some people will harp at me saying "but the challenges by level assume wealth for buying magic items and equipment"...to which I reply that I don't even allow players to buy magic items. Shock, horror, gasp!

I play an "oldschool" campaign, where my players get the magic items they are lucky enough to find. Occasionally they may find an NPC willing to part with a particular item for cash. And I have a good feel for my players party. I throw challenges at them appropriate to their abilities. And somehow manage to run a fun and balanced game.

Now, if people want to use that Wealth by Level table, all fine and well, more power to you. But please don't act like a balanced game cannot be run without slavish adherance to WbL...

But that's not a balanced game at all. That's a DM-By-Wire game.

It's the difference between flying a solid, dependable A-10 warthog, or even better a P-38 J, and an F-16. The A-10 and the P-38 J are stable aircraft with solid, broad wingspans, slow flight speeds, and are steady and dependable as a brick shithouse.

The F-16 is a negatively stable insane piece of junk. It's constantly in a state of going crazy in the air, which is balanced out by the computer making umpteen million miniscule corrections using the plane's flight surfaces. This results in the ability to fly the aircraft, but if you do lose the fly-by-wire system, it's a done deal, your goose is cooked.

Same with DMing-by-wire. Going 'old-school' as you call it, works only as long as you're on the ball. If you miss ONE TINY DETAIL, like say, the fact that the monster has DR 20/Cold Iron, and none of your players have Cold Iron... What should be an appropriate challenge is a TPK. I've heard stories of this happening, too.

This is why the smart DMs at least try to pay heedance to the WBL charts, and the smart-alec ones snub it.
Seraph of Babel
02-08-06, 10:03 PM I agree with Endymnion and astute1. Count as 100% unless they actually sell it. IMC, I also track character wealth, but not by how much I give out. I get the players to do wealth audit every 5 levels (or whenever they lost significant amount of equipment, e.g. disjunction). An under-equipped PC has his wealth top-up to the listed amount via some in-game plot. An over-equipped PC gets less XP per combat encounter.
imperialjunkie
02-08-06, 10:55 PM I use the table as a tool to eyeball where PCs are at with wealth. But I don't hold to it strictly.

What I do hold to strictly is the treasure by Encounter Level (Table 3-3 on pg. 51). If you keep to this, this will balance treasure out and keep it in proportion to the XP being given out. Sometimes I might move the treasure around (moving treasure for an animal encounter over to the mercenary encounter), but it all works out in the end.
kraegor
02-08-06, 10:59 PM Well generally speaking...

A mundane weapon and mundane armor for a NPC/Monster generally do *not* count against the treasure tables.

You will see in monster manual that a Ogre usually has a chain shirt and a greatclub. Then it tells you to roll standard treasure.

Now, there are 2 ways of doing this, they get a greatclub, chain shirt, and 300gp.

Now, if under mundane treasure you roll "full plate mail" then that counts towards treasure, and the ogre just might be wearing the full plate in the combat.

But generally speaking, the "average" NPCs dont count MUNDANE weapons/armor as part of the treasure if they are using it. If they have it stockpiled in the back (i.e crate of chain shirts) then it does.
DMDaddy
02-09-06, 01:09 AM It's the difference between flying a solid, dependable A-10 warthog, or even better a P-38 J, and an F-16.

This is why the smart DMs at least try to pay heedance to the WBL charts, and the smart-alec ones snub it.

Not using WBL = players amasing great wealth and buying an F16

Now we're talking. I want to be the players with the F16s. Yeah, throw some monsters at me now.
cynical
02-09-06, 03:59 AM If your worried that players are going to abuse disposable items, because they Know how much wealth they should have at a givin level, there is an easy fix. Limity the diposable item to 10% of there charicture wealth (less at higher level). Just do make them easy to buy in mass.
Thurbane
02-09-06, 04:12 AM But that's not a balanced game at all. That's a DM-By-Wire game.

It's the difference between flying a solid, dependable A-10 warthog, or even better a P-38 J, and an F-16. The A-10 and the P-38 J are stable aircraft with solid, broad wingspans, slow flight speeds, and are steady and dependable as a brick shithouse.

The F-16 is a negatively stable insane piece of junk. It's constantly in a state of going crazy in the air, which is balanced out by the computer making umpteen million miniscule corrections using the plane's flight surfaces. This results in the ability to fly the aircraft, but if you do lose the fly-by-wire system, it's a done deal, your goose is cooked.

Same with DMing-by-wire. Going 'old-school' as you call it, works only as long as you're on the ball. If you miss ONE TINY DETAIL, like say, the fact that the monster has DR 20/Cold Iron, and none of your players have Cold Iron... What should be an appropriate challenge is a TPK. I've heard stories of this happening, too.

This is why the smart DMs at least try to pay heedance to the WBL charts, and the smart-alec ones snub it.
Well, thanks for the Top Gun 101 class, I'm gonna go throw on a Kenny Loggins CD... :D

If knowing my players well enough not to miss even "one tiny detail" makes me a "smart alec" who disregards the WbL table, the so be it. Perhaps playing D&D for decades before we had WbL tables has something to do with it.

As I said, if people want to use WbL tables fine and well, but you CAN run a perfectly good game without it.

Why is it that some people can't seem to accept that others run their games in different ways? I am willing to accept that using WbL is fine, yet some people can't seem to accept that you can run a good game without WbL. That is my primary problem with the whole thing: not that it exists, but that some people seem to think it's the be all and end all of how a DM should allocate treasure...

...and out of interest, what happens if a DM pays strict adherance to the WbL table, yet his players don't use that wealth to buy the exact weapon they need to overcome their next challenge? What if they dont happen to buy the iron/silver/flubber weapon they need to hit the next major villain?
Bryarr
02-09-06, 08:26 AM I've been DMing since Day 1 of 3.0, and this new campaign (started in October) is the first time I've bothered with the WbL chart for anything other than figuring out how much GP worth of equipment a new character should have. My previous games have been very fly-by-wire, as you say, and a couple times things got out of hand with the treasure, leading to arms races with the bad guys, and spiralling out of control, until a well placed Mord's disjunction.

This new group is very RP intensive, and I give XP based on story goals. Actually, we don't even bother with XP at all right now. At set points in the story, they'll level up. This works quite well right now, and will continue to work until someone dies and gets raised, gets a permanent level drained, decides to start crafting items, or cast spells with XP costs, heh.

Bry
ShadowDragon8685
02-09-06, 08:40 AM If they know they need something and don't buy it, refer back to the thread on encounters being harder than the listed CR.

At the very least, though, they won't be getting caught dead by a simple DR/magic, otherwise known as "Damage what?"

And I'd yell at you for being a bad DM, but now that you mention it, I think I'd rather go listen to some Kenny Loggins myself. Dun-da-da-dun-da, dun dun da dun....
Karelzarath
02-09-06, 04:24 PM Also, how should I take into account items with uses/charges? Say I give out four level 3 potions (750gp each, 3,000gp total), and count that as part of their player wealth. Then, 2 levels later, then use all four of those potions. Do I now count their wealth as 3,000gp less than before they used the potion?
Here's how I run my campaigns, and it works very well for me. I keep a master spreadsheet that lists each player's XP as well as the total gp value I have given out. It then compares the average XP to the per-player gp and lets me know if the party is ahead or behind treasure so that I can adjust the next session accordingly. Sure, the adjustments add a little to the prep time, but the spreadsheet has been tuned to the point that it overall decreases the prep time and keeps the PCs from being over- or under-equipped and ready to face the challenges I throw at them. If you want a copy, PM me your email and I'll shoot it to you.

To answer your immediate question, no I don't count item use when figuring out player wealth. If I give them 3000 gp and Player 1 spends it upgrading his sword while Player 2 buys an armload of potions, that's their choice. I neither reward nor penalize the players for how they spend their money. That said, the NPCs they occasionally fight will sometimes have more potions than they were able to use, so the party doesn't have to buy as many as you may think.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bryarr 02-05-06, 07:47 AM	I'm trying to carefully control my player's wealth levels using the character wealth by level table on p135 of the DMG. I've never done this before, so I have some questions. When giving out treasure in attempts to keep up with the table's numbers, should I take the fact that the players will be keeping certain items and selling others? For example, they fight 10 hobgoblin warriors, each wearing chainmail. Should I count that as 1500gp (10 times the price of chainmail, 150gp), or 750gp, because I know they will be selling it? Bry
nissir2000 02-05-06, 09:24 AM	I would use the 750 since that would be what he players end up getting. Be wary of using the tables like this though. Your players could fight say animals that tend to have little to no treasure at lower levels, but then up fighting a small dragon that has double or tripple treasure at higher levels. Tables like this are more of a guide, and I wouldn't worry about them much. Treasure = power so I try not to give out a lot of it right away or the game just becomes too easy.
Bryarr 02-05-06, 03:00 PM	I'm using a modified module, which has all the treasure set out, however my party is getting experience at a different rate that normal, so I'm checking out the treasure given out and modifying it so that the party will hit the proper character wealth levels at the appropriate levels. Also, how should I take into account items with uses/charges? Say I give out four level 3 potions (750gp each, 3,000gp total), and count that as part of their player wealth. Then, 2 levels later, then use all four of those potions. Do I now count their wealth as 3,000gp less than before they used the potion? Bry
The Abominable Darkling 02-05-06, 03:34 PM	When deciding how much an item of treasure is worth, you should almost always count half its gp-value. The only exception is if the item is a permanent item that you expect the party to keep. Using your hobgoblin example, the party's "wealth" will have increased by 1500 gp while they hold the armour, but half of this will disappear when they convert it into gold. Remember that your goal is to have the PC's wealth conform to the recommended level over the long run. If you count items' full gp-value, then the players will end up dramatically under-equipped. Count all charged items as half-value regardless of whether or not you expect the PCs to keep and use them.
Edymnion 02-05-06, 03:40 PM	Basically, anything the players are keeping/using counts 100% towards their character wealth limit. If they sell an item, they get half price for it. They just reduced their character wealth by doing that, freeing some up for other things (not to mention the liquidation value). If the PC has something, count it's value against their character wealth 100%. When they sell it, they get half value for it, and their character wealth decreases, in exchange for the gold to buy other things. You can just go with the half-value to start with, but then you have to be careful that they don't decide to keep it later on, which means you undercharged them. Just keep track of how much stuff they have at any given time. Its fine to be a little under or over the limit, just try to keep it more or less at the proscribed level and you'll be fine.
astute1 02-05-06, 04:12 PM	It's very difficult to pre-emptively determine which items a character is going to keep or sell. As you suggested, count 100% for items the party is going to keep, and 50% (or whatever "selling" counts as) for other items. You're still going to end up off over time, so you'll need to get your players to send you summary totals every once in a while, so you can see who is ahead/behind.
The Abominable Darkling 02-08-06, 12:32 AM	Actually, I don't think you should track the characters actual wealth at all. Here's why. Suppose you have a fighter who spends half his gold on potions (which he uses frequently). If you add up his wealth at some point, you'll find it far below the recommended level. But if you give him extra gold or items to compensate, then you've effectively given him those potions for free. I think it's best to simply give out treasure close to the recommended amount and let the PCs decide how much to convert into permanent items and how much to blow on power-ups.
astute1 02-08-06, 07:19 AM	Darkling, the treasure tables in the DMG do assume a certain amount is going to be spent on potions, scrolls, and other expendables. That's why there are two columns, character wealth, and total gp earned. Assuming that all your players spend evenly on these items, it should never be a problem.
DMDaddy 02-08-06, 11:16 AM	I keep the characters under the amount listed in the DMG. I tell them in advance that regardless of what they find, it will be adjusted at the end of the quest/dungeon to reflect the amounts in the DMG. This means that sometimes I subtract gold from the characters. As the DMG states, this is a way to control character power. In this way, my 7th level party won't have +5 armor, or a horn of valhalla. Look at it this way: (numbers may vary depending on circumstances) 7th level party with +5 armor = AC around 26-28 7th level monsters have a BAB of +7 to +9 = monsters will rarely hit
The Abominable Darkling 02-08-06, 11:17 AM	The tables assume that they'll spend approximately 10%, as I recall. However, my point is that the players should have to decide whether or not to buy potions, stoneskins, and so forth knowing that, while they get a short term benefit, it will reduce their power level in the long run. If you constantly give them treasure to increase their wealth to the "expected" level, then there's no choice at all. The players can (and should) spend on disposable items to their heart's content. It won't cost them a thing. Edit: I should also point out that this scenario leads to the PCs being overly powerful. Spells like stoneskin have a gp cost because they are so powerful. The cost is intended to balance this. Remove the cost and you remove the balance. DMDaddy, if I were playing in your game, why wouldn't I cast stoneskin on myself and the party before every single fight?
DMDaddy 02-08-06, 06:10 PM	DMDaddy, if I were playing in your game, why wouldn't I cast stoneskin on myself and the party before every single fight? I think you mis understood my post. I limit my players according to "wealth by level" in the DMG. My players have learned to value their potions and will only give "stoneskin" to players who are weak and have low AC. My 11th level group all average about 85,000 gp per character. This includes all carried items and gold. I think the DMG suggests 66,000 gp. Most of the time, they have less than 15,000 gps in their pockets (bag's of holding). Most of this is spent on healing potions before each adventure. Some players have become smart and sold some of their prized possessions for money to buy more useful items. Some times they even pool their money and resources together to get items over the 66,000 limit. This is so, especially if they know they need a powerful item.
Thurbane 02-08-06, 09:02 PM	I personally find the whole Wealth by Level totally unneccesary. It's a great guideline for starting DMs, but that's about all. I totally disregard it. Now some people will harp at me saying "but the challenges by level assume wealth for buying magic items and equipment"...to which I reply that I don't even allow players to buy magic items. Shock, horror, gasp! I play an "oldschool" campaign, where my players get the magic items they are lucky enough to find. Occasionally they may find an NPC willing to part with a particular item for cash. And I have a good feel for my players party. I throw challenges at them appropriate to their abilities. And somehow manage to run a fun and balanced game. Now, if people want to use that Wealth by Level table, all fine and well, more power to you. But please don't act like a balanced game cannot be run without slavish adherance to WbL...
ShadowDragon8685 02-08-06, 09:27 PM	I personally find the whole Wealth by Level totally unneccesary. It's a great guideline for starting DMs, but that's about all. I totally disregard it. Now some people will harp at me saying "but the challenges by level assume wealth for buying magic items and equipment"...to which I reply that I don't even allow players to buy magic items. Shock, horror, gasp! I play an "oldschool" campaign, where my players get the magic items they are lucky enough to find. Occasionally they may find an NPC willing to part with a particular item for cash. And I have a good feel for my players party. I throw challenges at them appropriate to their abilities. And somehow manage to run a fun and balanced game. Now, if people want to use that Wealth by Level table, all fine and well, more power to you. But please don't act like a balanced game cannot be run without slavish adherance to WbL... But that's not a balanced game at all. That's a DM-By-Wire game. It's the difference between flying a solid, dependable A-10 warthog, or even better a P-38 J, and an F-16. The A-10 and the P-38 J are stable aircraft with solid, broad wingspans, slow flight speeds, and are steady and dependable as a brick shithouse. The F-16 is a negatively stable insane piece of junk. It's constantly in a state of going crazy in the air, which is balanced out by the computer making umpteen million miniscule corrections using the plane's flight surfaces. This results in the ability to fly the aircraft, but if you do lose the fly-by-wire system, it's a done deal, your goose is cooked. Same with DMing-by-wire. Going 'old-school' as you call it, works only as long as you're on the ball. If you miss ONE TINY DETAIL, like say, the fact that the monster has DR 20/Cold Iron, and none of your players have Cold Iron... What should be an appropriate challenge is a TPK. I've heard stories of this happening, too. This is why the smart DMs at least try to pay heedance to the WBL charts, and the smart-alec ones snub it.
Seraph of Babel 02-08-06, 10:03 PM	I agree with Endymnion and astute1. Count as 100% unless they actually sell it. IMC, I also track character wealth, but not by how much I give out. I get the players to do wealth audit every 5 levels (or whenever they lost significant amount of equipment, e.g. disjunction). An under-equipped PC has his wealth top-up to the listed amount via some in-game plot. An over-equipped PC gets less XP per combat encounter.
imperialjunkie 02-08-06, 10:55 PM	I use the table as a tool to eyeball where PCs are at with wealth. But I don't hold to it strictly. What I do hold to strictly is the treasure by Encounter Level (Table 3-3 on pg. 51). If you keep to this, this will balance treasure out and keep it in proportion to the XP being given out. Sometimes I might move the treasure around (moving treasure for an animal encounter over to the mercenary encounter), but it all works out in the end.
kraegor 02-08-06, 10:59 PM	Well generally speaking... A mundane weapon and mundane armor for a NPC/Monster generally do not count against the treasure tables. You will see in monster manual that a Ogre usually has a chain shirt and a greatclub. Then it tells you to roll standard treasure. Now, there are 2 ways of doing this, they get a greatclub, chain shirt, and 300gp. Now, if under mundane treasure you roll "full plate mail" then that counts towards treasure, and the ogre just might be wearing the full plate in the combat. But generally speaking, the "average" NPCs dont count MUNDANE weapons/armor as part of the treasure if they are using it. If they have it stockpiled in the back (i.e crate of chain shirts) then it does.
DMDaddy 02-09-06, 01:09 AM	It's the difference between flying a solid, dependable A-10 warthog, or even better a P-38 J, and an F-16. This is why the smart DMs at least try to pay heedance to the WBL charts, and the smart-alec ones snub it. Not using WBL = players amasing great wealth and buying an F16 Now we're talking. I want to be the players with the F16s. Yeah, throw some monsters at me now.
cynical 02-09-06, 03:59 AM	If your worried that players are going to abuse disposable items, because they Know how much wealth they should have at a givin level, there is an easy fix. Limity the diposable item to 10% of there charicture wealth (less at higher level). Just do make them easy to buy in mass.
Thurbane 02-09-06, 04:12 AM	But that's not a balanced game at all. That's a DM-By-Wire game. It's the difference between flying a solid, dependable A-10 warthog, or even better a P-38 J, and an F-16. The A-10 and the P-38 J are stable aircraft with solid, broad wingspans, slow flight speeds, and are steady and dependable as a brick shithouse. The F-16 is a negatively stable insane piece of junk. It's constantly in a state of going crazy in the air, which is balanced out by the computer making umpteen million miniscule corrections using the plane's flight surfaces. This results in the ability to fly the aircraft, but if you do lose the fly-by-wire system, it's a done deal, your goose is cooked. Same with DMing-by-wire. Going 'old-school' as you call it, works only as long as you're on the ball. If you miss ONE TINY DETAIL, like say, the fact that the monster has DR 20/Cold Iron, and none of your players have Cold Iron... What should be an appropriate challenge is a TPK. I've heard stories of this happening, too. This is why the smart DMs at least try to pay heedance to the WBL charts, and the smart-alec ones snub it. Well, thanks for the Top Gun 101 class, I'm gonna go throw on a Kenny Loggins CD... :D If knowing my players well enough not to miss even "one tiny detail" makes me a "smart alec" who disregards the WbL table, the so be it. Perhaps playing D&D for decades before we had WbL tables has something to do with it. As I said, if people want to use WbL tables fine and well, but you CAN run a perfectly good game without it. Why is it that some people can't seem to accept that others run their games in different ways? I am willing to accept that using WbL is fine, yet some people can't seem to accept that you can run a good game without WbL. That is my primary problem with the whole thing: not that it exists, but that some people seem to think it's the be all and end all of how a DM should allocate treasure... ...and out of interest, what happens if a DM pays strict adherance to the WbL table, yet his players don't use that wealth to buy the exact weapon they need to overcome their next challenge? What if they dont happen to buy the iron/silver/flubber weapon they need to hit the next major villain?
Bryarr 02-09-06, 08:26 AM	I've been DMing since Day 1 of 3.0, and this new campaign (started in October) is the first time I've bothered with the WbL chart for anything other than figuring out how much GP worth of equipment a new character should have. My previous games have been very fly-by-wire, as you say, and a couple times things got out of hand with the treasure, leading to arms races with the bad guys, and spiralling out of control, until a well placed Mord's disjunction. This new group is very RP intensive, and I give XP based on story goals. Actually, we don't even bother with XP at all right now. At set points in the story, they'll level up. This works quite well right now, and will continue to work until someone dies and gets raised, gets a permanent level drained, decides to start crafting items, or cast spells with XP costs, heh. Bry
ShadowDragon8685 02-09-06, 08:40 AM	If they know they need something and don't buy it, refer back to the thread on encounters being harder than the listed CR. At the very least, though, they won't be getting caught dead by a simple DR/magic, otherwise known as "Damage what?" And I'd yell at you for being a bad DM, but now that you mention it, I think I'd rather go listen to some Kenny Loggins myself. Dun-da-da-dun-da, dun dun da dun....
Karelzarath 02-09-06, 04:24 PM	Also, how should I take into account items with uses/charges? Say I give out four level 3 potions (750gp each, 3,000gp total), and count that as part of their player wealth. Then, 2 levels later, then use all four of those potions. Do I now count their wealth as 3,000gp less than before they used the potion? Here's how I run my campaigns, and it works very well for me. I keep a master spreadsheet that lists each player's XP as well as the total gp value I have given out. It then compares the average XP to the per-player gp and lets me know if the party is ahead or behind treasure so that I can adjust the next session accordingly. Sure, the adjustments add a little to the prep time, but the spreadsheet has been tuned to the point that it overall decreases the prep time and keeps the PCs from being over- or under-equipped and ready to face the challenges I throw at them. If you want a copy, PM me your email and I'll shoot it to you. To answer your immediate question, no I don't count item use when figuring out player wealth. If I give them 3000 gp and Player 1 spends it upgrading his sword while Player 2 buys an armload of potions, that's their choice. I neither reward nor penalize the players for how they spend their money. That said, the NPCs they occasionally fight will sometimes have more potions than they were able to use, so the party doesn't have to buy as many as you may think.