Character Wealth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character Wealth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jthaxton
11-15-05, 02:49 PM Okay, I've looked as far as I'm willing to so I'm handing it over to y'all. I'm not a DM, but I have a DM's question.

The character wealth guide on page 135 of the DMG explains character wealth by level; we all know this. Now, my DM explains that the amounts listed are just a rough estimate of what a character should have; that a character of, say, 15th level should have between 150k and 260k (the minimum of 14th and the minimum of 16th, according to the book). However, the DMG lists a "minimum" character wealth for a 15th level character as 200k, quite a step from the 150 of the 14th level character.

With our particular campaign we tend to face critical threats (3-4 EL over our party EL) on a semi-regular basis. This week we faced a Nightwalker and a Marilith (EL 18, I believe) at the same time, while both clerics were mostly tapped. Last week we faced King Snurre (merged with a fire elemental, cr+4) and Obmi (we were 14th then (3 of the 5 of us are still 14th)).

My character has a net wealth of roughly 180K and he's 1/3 of the way through 15th level. The Fighter has a net wealth of 170K and she's 9/10 of the way through 14th. Our DM believes we, as a group, have more than enough money and resources, even though we don't match up to the DMG. I realize that one must adjust wealth appropriately to a campaign, but with the regularity of these critical threats, it feels like we are barely scraping by. We'll be facing Eclavdra in a session or two and I fear we'll be woefully unprepared.

Does anyone have any insight into the layout of character wealth by level and how much a given character should have at x level?
Eightbitmage
11-15-05, 02:55 PM Honestly if you spend as much time above the minimum as below you're fine. You cant expect the DM to always make sure everyone has exactly the amount of money listed in the book. But from the way you describe it, you don't seem to be exactly broke. If you are consistantly lower its not exactly by the books, but not that bad if you are at least at the level below(regardless of how much actual gp it is). Consider yourself lucky you don't have a DM that considers 1000 gp at 10th level to be a lot.
Illion the Red
11-15-05, 02:58 PM If you are surviving encounters 3-4 levels above your party's level on a semi-regular basis, you are all set.

The wealth guide is really a measure of power as (at least at mid-high level) your wealth is usually tied up in magic items.

Since your group is able to take on these threats that should have wiped you out a long time ago, you have sufficeint (probably much more than sufficient) power for your level. Therefore, I think your DM is playing it right.

Then again...that's only MY opinion. :)
Chobemaster
11-15-05, 03:20 PM You say "net wealth." I assume you mean that in the fairly generic sense to actually mean "total wealth" right? Or do your characters have debts
revnk
11-15-05, 04:04 PM The DMG provides a standard guideline, but the DM might deviate well below or well above those guidelines if a campaign is more survival-oriented (minimum wealth, adventures are often driven by the PCs' subsistence needs for food and shelter) or epic-power oriented (over-abundant wealth, PCs are superheroes with the fantasy-RPG equivalent of James Bond's Q-branch in a cart they drag around). Note that characters in such extreme campaigns may be difficult to port to other campaigns (since they'll be underpowered or overpowered for a "mainstream" campaign).

The important thing isn't really what the chart says, it's whether the party has what it needs to consistently make it through encounters.

In other words, the answer to the OP's question is, "a character should have enough wealth at x level to be able to meet the challenges of the campaign." In one campaign, that might be the exact middle of the range on the DMG chart; in another campaign, that might reasonably be the shirt on the PC's back, a full waterskin, and a rusted shortsword. As long as your DM isn't regularly pitting you against encounters that are impossible because of your lack of equipment (or overly easy because of your massive haul of loot), you have the "correct" amount of treasure for your level.

The fact that you feel like you're barely scraping by may be a very deliberate facet of the campaign. It's quite possible that you're supposed to be barely scraping by. Instead of worrying about the table, perhaps you and your party should pat yourselves on your backs for your accomplishments.

Good luck.
Jthaxton
11-15-05, 04:07 PM Yes, total wealth. I always get net and gross mixed up. Damn you, business class.

We survive these encounters, much of the time, because we are well-prepared. I regularly cast Commune (as the cleric) and handle much of the tactical/pre-battle planning so we don't go in defenseless. It seems fairly rediculous to have to do so as often as I do, though.

The characters are kept alive mainly by my healer, a 6/10 priest/radiant priest of pelor with healing and sun domains. The radiant class I use is quite modified from the Complete Divine one, as the C.D. is very overpowered; it still makes a good healer, though. But, essentially all I do is heal. 3 Heals/Day +domain Heal, 1st-5th (aside from buffs) get used as cures every time we fight instead of a variety. My Holy Words are basically useless since we're fighting creatures with 20+ hit dice, so those go to mass cures as well.

We're wrapping up the against the giants series right now. Most of the fighter and ranger's weapons have been destroyed by improved sunder, so instead of buying much-needed periapts of health, they have to buy new weapons. The paladin has the same problem. Our mage seems to be the only one ahead of the game (and, ironically, she just died on Sunday).

It is a good point that we -are- still surviving, making do, but I'm still concerned that things will get tougher while we stay at our current level of money, under the proposed mark for our levels, while the DM goes on thinking we have more than enough resources.

We only won the fight with the marilith/nightwalker because the mage, luckily, still had a spell left (force cage), and I had a handful of high-level healing scrolls (which are now used).

Are the listed amounts in the DMG the recommended minimum for characters of that level? My DM believes it's not... Still curious.
Chobemaster
11-15-05, 04:10 PM Yes, total wealth. I always get net and gross mixed up. Damn you, business class.

We survive these encounters, much of the time, because we are well-prepared. I regularly cast Commune (as the cleric) and handle much of the tactical/pre-battle planning so we don't go in defenseless. It seems fairly rediculous to have to do so as often as I do, though.

The characters are kept alive mainly by my healer, a 6/10 priest/radiant priest of pelor with healing and sun domains. The radiant class I use is quite modified from the Complete Divine one, as the C.D. is very overpowered; it still makes a good healer, though. But, essentially all I do is heal. 3 Heals/Day +domain Heal, 1st-5th (aside from buffs) get used as cures every time we fight instead of a variety. My Holy Words are basically useless since we're fighting creatures with 20+ hit dice, so those go to mass cures as well.

We're wrapping up the against the giants series right now. Most of the fighter and ranger's weapons have been destroyed by improved sunder, so instead of buying much-needed periapts of health, they have to buy new weapons. The paladin has the same problem. Our mage seems to be the only one ahead of the game (and, ironically, she just died on Sunday).

It is a good point that we -are- still surviving, making do, but I'm still concerned that things will get tougher while we stay at our current level of money, under the proposed mark for our levels, while the DM goes on thinking we have more than enough resources.

We only won the fight with the marilith/nightwalker because the mage, luckily, still had a spell left (force cage), and I had a handful of high-level healing scrolls (which are now used).

Are the listed amounts in the DMG the recommended minimum for characters of that level? My DM believes it's not... Still curious.

The table is completely overridden by campaign concerns. The game can be rebalanced lots of ways. Prestige classes can be one of them, too. As has been said, if you are winning high EL battles, then you have enough wealth, ipso facto.
Jthaxton
11-15-05, 04:13 PM Hm. I suppose that is fair. I guess I've gotten distracted from the important facet of my question (that is, our successes) by the desire to have more money which means having more options with my character.

Thanks for the input.
StormCrow42
11-15-05, 04:19 PM If you're concerned about the wealth levels in your campaign, TALK IT OVER WITH YOUR DM. The readers of the forums can't force your DM to change his campaign, but you might be able to convince him that you need more treasure if you just sit down and talk with him. Perhaps your DM hasn't realized that your party is lagging behind table 5-1. Perhaps he doesn't care. The only way to be sure is to ask.
q'afuu
11-15-05, 04:37 PM ... 3 of the 5 of us... All the rules assume a balanced party of 4 characters. If there's 5 of you, that might well make up for a minor wealth deficit compared to the guidelines.
loaba
11-15-05, 04:52 PM The starting wealth table is just that, it's a table for determining the starting wealth for a character of X level (and I rather think that party size has naught to do with it).

In an ongoing campaign, it is entirely possible that you will, at any given time, have a wealth level that is either under or over the suggested amount. From the sound of things, you guys are probably a little on the light side, but not by much.
mythandra
11-15-05, 05:01 PM The table is completely overridden by campaign concerns. The game can be rebalanced lots of ways. Prestige classes can be one of them, too. As has been said, if you are winning high EL battles, then you have enough wealth, ipso facto.

I'm inclined to agree.

If you're getting weapons sundered, buying new ones, having your cleric play heal stick every round in the heat of battle, and still beating CR's 3 to 4 higher than the average character level, you're doing all right. Look at it this way, the XP table only lists XP for encounters 7CR's or less above party level.

From where I'm standing, it sounds like you're preparing so carefully that you'd curb stomp any encounter with an "appropriate" CR.
q'afuu
11-15-05, 05:59 PM The starting wealth table is just that, it's a table for determining the starting wealth for a character of X level (and I rather think that party size has naught to do with it). Wealth and party size are both possible means for a DM to create a balanced adventure. Party too large? Compensate by giving less wealth per person, so the total available wealth is more or less accurate. Party too small? Giving some extra means might well compensate. There are lots of other options a DM might use: NPCs, favours, giving opponents better/worse stats, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jthaxton 11-15-05, 02:49 PM	Okay, I've looked as far as I'm willing to so I'm handing it over to y'all. I'm not a DM, but I have a DM's question. The character wealth guide on page 135 of the DMG explains character wealth by level; we all know this. Now, my DM explains that the amounts listed are just a rough estimate of what a character should have; that a character of, say, 15th level should have between 150k and 260k (the minimum of 14th and the minimum of 16th, according to the book). However, the DMG lists a "minimum" character wealth for a 15th level character as 200k, quite a step from the 150 of the 14th level character. With our particular campaign we tend to face critical threats (3-4 EL over our party EL) on a semi-regular basis. This week we faced a Nightwalker and a Marilith (EL 18, I believe) at the same time, while both clerics were mostly tapped. Last week we faced King Snurre (merged with a fire elemental, cr+4) and Obmi (we were 14th then (3 of the 5 of us are still 14th)). My character has a net wealth of roughly 180K and he's 1/3 of the way through 15th level. The Fighter has a net wealth of 170K and she's 9/10 of the way through 14th. Our DM believes we, as a group, have more than enough money and resources, even though we don't match up to the DMG. I realize that one must adjust wealth appropriately to a campaign, but with the regularity of these critical threats, it feels like we are barely scraping by. We'll be facing Eclavdra in a session or two and I fear we'll be woefully unprepared. Does anyone have any insight into the layout of character wealth by level and how much a given character should have at x level?
Eightbitmage 11-15-05, 02:55 PM	Honestly if you spend as much time above the minimum as below you're fine. You cant expect the DM to always make sure everyone has exactly the amount of money listed in the book. But from the way you describe it, you don't seem to be exactly broke. If you are consistantly lower its not exactly by the books, but not that bad if you are at least at the level below(regardless of how much actual gp it is). Consider yourself lucky you don't have a DM that considers 1000 gp at 10th level to be a lot.
Illion the Red 11-15-05, 02:58 PM	If you are surviving encounters 3-4 levels above your party's level on a semi-regular basis, you are all set. The wealth guide is really a measure of power as (at least at mid-high level) your wealth is usually tied up in magic items. Since your group is able to take on these threats that should have wiped you out a long time ago, you have sufficeint (probably much more than sufficient) power for your level. Therefore, I think your DM is playing it right. Then again...that's only MY opinion. :)
Chobemaster 11-15-05, 03:20 PM	You say "net wealth." I assume you mean that in the fairly generic sense to actually mean "total wealth" right? Or do your characters have debts
revnk 11-15-05, 04:04 PM	The DMG provides a standard guideline, but the DM might deviate well below or well above those guidelines if a campaign is more survival-oriented (minimum wealth, adventures are often driven by the PCs' subsistence needs for food and shelter) or epic-power oriented (over-abundant wealth, PCs are superheroes with the fantasy-RPG equivalent of James Bond's Q-branch in a cart they drag around). Note that characters in such extreme campaigns may be difficult to port to other campaigns (since they'll be underpowered or overpowered for a "mainstream" campaign). The important thing isn't really what the chart says, it's whether the party has what it needs to consistently make it through encounters. In other words, the answer to the OP's question is, "a character should have enough wealth at x level to be able to meet the challenges of the campaign." In one campaign, that might be the exact middle of the range on the DMG chart; in another campaign, that might reasonably be the shirt on the PC's back, a full waterskin, and a rusted shortsword. As long as your DM isn't regularly pitting you against encounters that are impossible because of your lack of equipment (or overly easy because of your massive haul of loot), you have the "correct" amount of treasure for your level. The fact that you feel like you're barely scraping by may be a very deliberate facet of the campaign. It's quite possible that you're supposed to be barely scraping by. Instead of worrying about the table, perhaps you and your party should pat yourselves on your backs for your accomplishments. Good luck.
Jthaxton 11-15-05, 04:07 PM	Yes, total wealth. I always get net and gross mixed up. Damn you, business class. We survive these encounters, much of the time, because we are well-prepared. I regularly cast Commune (as the cleric) and handle much of the tactical/pre-battle planning so we don't go in defenseless. It seems fairly rediculous to have to do so as often as I do, though. The characters are kept alive mainly by my healer, a 6/10 priest/radiant priest of pelor with healing and sun domains. The radiant class I use is quite modified from the Complete Divine one, as the C.D. is very overpowered; it still makes a good healer, though. But, essentially all I do is heal. 3 Heals/Day +domain Heal, 1st-5th (aside from buffs) get used as cures every time we fight instead of a variety. My Holy Words are basically useless since we're fighting creatures with 20+ hit dice, so those go to mass cures as well. We're wrapping up the against the giants series right now. Most of the fighter and ranger's weapons have been destroyed by improved sunder, so instead of buying much-needed periapts of health, they have to buy new weapons. The paladin has the same problem. Our mage seems to be the only one ahead of the game (and, ironically, she just died on Sunday). It is a good point that we -are- still surviving, making do, but I'm still concerned that things will get tougher while we stay at our current level of money, under the proposed mark for our levels, while the DM goes on thinking we have more than enough resources. We only won the fight with the marilith/nightwalker because the mage, luckily, still had a spell left (force cage), and I had a handful of high-level healing scrolls (which are now used). Are the listed amounts in the DMG the recommended minimum for characters of that level? My DM believes it's not... Still curious.
Chobemaster 11-15-05, 04:10 PM	Yes, total wealth. I always get net and gross mixed up. Damn you, business class. We survive these encounters, much of the time, because we are well-prepared. I regularly cast Commune (as the cleric) and handle much of the tactical/pre-battle planning so we don't go in defenseless. It seems fairly rediculous to have to do so as often as I do, though. The characters are kept alive mainly by my healer, a 6/10 priest/radiant priest of pelor with healing and sun domains. The radiant class I use is quite modified from the Complete Divine one, as the C.D. is very overpowered; it still makes a good healer, though. But, essentially all I do is heal. 3 Heals/Day +domain Heal, 1st-5th (aside from buffs) get used as cures every time we fight instead of a variety. My Holy Words are basically useless since we're fighting creatures with 20+ hit dice, so those go to mass cures as well. We're wrapping up the against the giants series right now. Most of the fighter and ranger's weapons have been destroyed by improved sunder, so instead of buying much-needed periapts of health, they have to buy new weapons. The paladin has the same problem. Our mage seems to be the only one ahead of the game (and, ironically, she just died on Sunday). It is a good point that we -are- still surviving, making do, but I'm still concerned that things will get tougher while we stay at our current level of money, under the proposed mark for our levels, while the DM goes on thinking we have more than enough resources. We only won the fight with the marilith/nightwalker because the mage, luckily, still had a spell left (force cage), and I had a handful of high-level healing scrolls (which are now used). Are the listed amounts in the DMG the recommended minimum for characters of that level? My DM believes it's not... Still curious. The table is completely overridden by campaign concerns. The game can be rebalanced lots of ways. Prestige classes can be one of them, too. As has been said, if you are winning high EL battles, then you have enough wealth, ipso facto.
Jthaxton 11-15-05, 04:13 PM	Hm. I suppose that is fair. I guess I've gotten distracted from the important facet of my question (that is, our successes) by the desire to have more money which means having more options with my character. Thanks for the input.
StormCrow42 11-15-05, 04:19 PM	If you're concerned about the wealth levels in your campaign, TALK IT OVER WITH YOUR DM. The readers of the forums can't force your DM to change his campaign, but you might be able to convince him that you need more treasure if you just sit down and talk with him. Perhaps your DM hasn't realized that your party is lagging behind table 5-1. Perhaps he doesn't care. The only way to be sure is to ask.
q'afuu 11-15-05, 04:37 PM	... 3 of the 5 of us... All the rules assume a balanced party of 4 characters. If there's 5 of you, that might well make up for a minor wealth deficit compared to the guidelines.
loaba 11-15-05, 04:52 PM	The starting wealth table is just that, it's a table for determining the starting wealth for a character of X level (and I rather think that party size has naught to do with it). In an ongoing campaign, it is entirely possible that you will, at any given time, have a wealth level that is either under or over the suggested amount. From the sound of things, you guys are probably a little on the light side, but not by much.
mythandra 11-15-05, 05:01 PM	The table is completely overridden by campaign concerns. The game can be rebalanced lots of ways. Prestige classes can be one of them, too. As has been said, if you are winning high EL battles, then you have enough wealth, ipso facto. I'm inclined to agree. If you're getting weapons sundered, buying new ones, having your cleric play heal stick every round in the heat of battle, and still beating CR's 3 to 4 higher than the average character level, you're doing all right. Look at it this way, the XP table only lists XP for encounters 7CR's or less above party level. From where I'm standing, it sounds like you're preparing so carefully that you'd curb stomp any encounter with an "appropriate" CR.
q'afuu 11-15-05, 05:59 PM	The starting wealth table is just that, it's a table for determining the starting wealth for a character of X level (and I rather think that party size has naught to do with it). Wealth and party size are both possible means for a DM to create a balanced adventure. Party too large? Compensate by giving less wealth per person, so the total available wealth is more or less accurate. Party too small? Giving some extra means might well compensate. There are lots of other options a DM might use: NPCs, favours, giving opponents better/worse stats, etc.