Characters and sleep... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Characters and sleep... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XIII
09-27-06, 12:06 PM My playing group and the DM were having a discussion about a point in the game we dont like.

Our group is made of a Warforged and 3 humans all with Ring of Sustenance, so we need 2 hours of sleep to make it a night.

Can we walk more than 8 hours a day? What happened is we were trying to stay ahead of a group of treasure hunter. So we walked 8 hours, made forced march for 2 more, and then slept 2 hours, and then we wanted to walk another 8 hours, but the DM said there was a rule against that. But he coldnt find it. Is it true?

None of us can see in the darkest hours of the night, so thats when we stop to sleep. lets say thats about 6 hours. That leave us at least 16 hours of walk per day...

Thanks for your replies!

XIII
Bringslite
09-27-06, 01:39 PM What about taking care of your horses, animal companions, spell casters. Spell casters still need 8 hours of rest.

Firewood has to be gathered, good campsites located and secured, equipement mended, swords sharpened, armor oiled, bedrolls unrolled then rerolled, possibly tents set up and taken down, wounds tended, time for breaks (Idon't believe that ring of sustenance prevents fatigue from physical exertion) etc, etc.

The above list could go on and on listing all of the daily chores nessesary(sp?) to keep a group of travelers going. The 8hrs/day max travel rule is writen to reflect these things.
Captn Blake
09-27-06, 01:52 PM True, true. But then ultimately, if the DM doesn't want to allow that - that's totally his call. DM = God. But it works a lot better if he can come up with some logic (like that provided by Bringslite above) to explain why he won't allow it.

As a player, you should trust that there is a good reason why that play is disallowed. Perhaps the story arc relies on the fact that the treasure hunter outpaces you. A good DM will mask this fact (throwing other obsticles in there to slow you down, roleplay or monster, or provide logic as to how the treasurehunter is staying ahead of the group) but ultimately, you should probably yield to the DM. Unless you think he's really up to no good. Then I'd find a new DM. :)
Cifer
09-27-06, 02:06 PM I disagree with Bringslite. While spellcasters probably still need their full 8 hours (it's not specified in the ring description - has anyone looked up FAQ on that?), this doesn't seem to be the issue here - I also guess that no horses or other usual creatures would be present. The ring provides nourishment, so food and drinking is also out. What do you need a fire for if you don't cook, provided it's not too cold and the group has brought decent sleeping mats? The chores mentioned will probably be done by the warforged who has got two full hours of time for them since he doesn't even need sleep.

Still, you will need a period of rest after each 8+X hours of travel. This means you could divide your day as follows, depending on the season: Stand up at around 0400, walk for ten hours from 0430 till 1430, rest from 1430 till 1700 and march till around 2200 or whenever it starts to be pitchblack.
With generous use of torches, lanterns and sunrods, this could be further optimized when you believe yourself to be in a relatively safe environment. You might truly manage a 9.5h walking-2.5h rest -9.5 h walking-2.5h rest cycle for about 19 hours of traveling per day.

It should be obvious that after sleeping for eight hours the eight hour period of unproblematic traveling begins anew. The only thing that changes now is that instead of eight hours, you need only two to sleep.
orionm42
09-27-06, 02:26 PM It should be obvious that after sleeping for eight hours the eight hour period of unproblematic traveling begins anew. The only thing that changes now is that instead of eight hours, you need only two to sleep.

That would seem obvious, but I am not sure it is wholly supported by the RAW. The rules as written state the following...

Walk: A character can walk 8 hours in a day of travel without a problem. Walking for longer than that can wear him or her out (see Forced March, below).

Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.

A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It’s possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.

RAW is that you can only walk for 8 hours in a day without risking fatigue. A day is generally 24 hours. Therefore, by RAW, you can only walk 8 hours in that 24 hour period before you enter a forced march and risk becoming fatigued. Technically, this appears to be the case even if you break up your walking with periods of sleep during that 24 hours.

I agree that does not make logical sense, and it would seem as though you should be able to break up 8 hour periods of walking with 2 hours of rest, but I think the DM in question, by not allowing it, reasonably interpreted the RAW.
XIII
09-27-06, 02:32 PM To update the information i gave earlier :

We are on Xen'Drik (jungle environment) and dont have any horses, and no spellcaster (Fighter, Scout, Dragon Shaman and Psion ((yes, its a spellcaster but his 8 hours of rest are for a day period (24h) so he cant learn new spells after each sleep time, its on a 24 hours timer.))

The thing is if we travel 2x8 hours, we still have 8 hours of rest :D

Thanks for all the replies, i am still looking for more, as i need to show this thread to my DM tonight :D

Thanks!

XIII
Sereno
09-27-06, 02:54 PM So far as I can tell, the Ring of Sustenance does nothing for the physical tiring of muscles being used constantly (as in forced-march walking). So if you walked eight hours, then wanted for forced-march eight more, the ring wouldn't help at all.

Though it makes no mention of forced-marches.

However, the description does mention that the ring "refreshes the body and mind", so I'd allow the two hour break to be the same as an eight-hour sleep. IMC, you'd only be making forced-march Con checks if you tried to walk longer than 8 hours without a full rest (2 hours with Ring, or 8 hours without)....

I can't really see spending 8 whole hours of each travelling-day making and breaking camp.
HamHam
09-27-06, 03:05 PM The question is, I think, about the ratio of resting to walking. From experience, I would say that simply resting two hours is not enough to fully recover from having walked 8 hours, particularly if you're carrying equipment.

On the other hand, 8 hours of rest should fully recover you.

How about a system like this:

Each hour of walking gives you a unit of "fatigue". The first 8 units have no effect, but continuing to walk past that triggers the Forced March rules, with a +2 for each unit you are above 8.

Resting for one hour removes a unit of fatigue.

So, if you just went walk for 8 then rest for 8 then walk for 8 it would be like so:

Day 1: 8 hours walking. Resting 8. Walking 8.
Day 2: Resting 8. Walking 8. Resting 8.
Day 3: Walking 8. Resting 8. Walking 8.

and so forth, giving you an average of 1.5 times your normal travel time with no ill-effects.

If you want to Force March, you could do something like:

Day 1: Walking 10 (two checks). Resting 6 (four units left). Walking 4 Resting 4
Day 2: Resting 4. Walking 10 (two checks). Resting 6. Walking 4 (four units).

Thus in two days forced marched with two checks you get 3.5 times the normal speed. However, this is not sutainable over a long period of time.
ccerose
09-27-06, 03:16 PM Psion ((yes, its a spellcaster but his 8 hours of rest are for a day period (24h) so he cant learn new spells after each sleep time, its on a 24 hours timer.)

XIII
You mentioned the psion, but do any of the other characters have abilities that are X uses/day? Those would also fall in that 24 hour period.
pres_man
09-27-06, 03:25 PM The warforge if he does not have a ring, then he at least would be limited. Unless he is immune to non-lethal damage? I don't know exactly what they get that is the same as living creatures and not.
Epicweaver
09-27-06, 03:36 PM While it's true that I don't think for your party a simple 2 hour period is too little for all in the ins and outs of resting...

8 hours travel time
16 hours camping

Of the 16 hours only 8 is devoted to sleeping. The other 8 is assumed to be devoted to preparing camp, repairing gear, plotting navigation, tending horses, campfire, tents, cooking, eating, cleaning, etc...

I think you could definately cut 6 hours out of the 16.
You could probably cut more time out depending on what your party is prepared to do to make resting faster (always carrying rations, conjuring food/water, conjuring shelter, etc).

It would be reasonable to scale total camp time down a few hours more of all those conditions were met... On the other hand, you must consider required amount of time spent to maintain durability on equipment... so...

You COULD rest 2 hours and go, but I (as a DM) would cause damage to begin to effect all equipment due to lack of care (weather exposure, combat damages, hostile environments, natural pests, etc). I'd say 6 hours total is a fair trade off.

Your Psion must still rest for 8 hours to recover his power points (unless you're using some sort of house rules). This would tactic on a minimum rest period of 8 hours that I'd push to 10 to accomodate the extra work the other party members would need to do to carry the extra work that the Psion would normally have to contribute.

Daily Power Point Acquisition: To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points.
Emphasis mine.
Epicweaver
09-27-06, 03:40 PM The warforge if he does not have a ring, then he at least would be limited. Unless he is immune to non-lethal damage? I don't know exactly what they get that is the same as living creatures and not.

Living Construct Subtype (Ex)
does not need to eat, drink, sleep, or breath.
immune to fatigue and exhaustion

The warforged could travel all day long without ever stopping, he would still be exposed to nonlethal damage from weather explosure and natural hazards though.
HamHam
09-27-06, 04:17 PM Your Psion must still rest for 8 hours to recover his power points (unless you're using some sort of house rules). This would tactic on a minimum rest period of 8 hours that I'd push to 10 to accomodate the extra work the other party members would need to do to carry the extra work that the Psion would normally have to contribute.

However, if he isn't using any or doesn't want to regain them, it's not needed.
pres_man
09-27-06, 04:25 PM Living Construct Subtype (Ex)
does not need to eat, drink, sleep, or breath.
immune to fatigue and exhaustion
Wow, and no level adjustment? That is kind of kooky, I mean free ring of Sustenance effect +, and immune to spells that cause fatigue or exhaustion. No level adjustment because they are difficult to heal (though not impossible)? Something seems wrong there.
Epicweaver
09-27-06, 04:51 PM Wow, and no level adjustment? That is kind of kooky, I mean free ring of Sustenance effect +, and immune to spells that cause fatigue or exhaustion. No level adjustment because they are difficult to heal (though not impossible)? Something seems wrong there.
Well, they have more drawbacks... like being considered two types for the purposes of spells..+2/-2/-2 on racials... but get a few more buffs too... I don't know, I've been running Eberron for months and my players are still stuck in the human/elf mindset.... /shrug

There's also a strong RP drawback... Stereotypically your average person will probably treat you more like a machine then a person (despite the Treaty) and on many occasions you will be viewed as a piece of junk that represents all the pain, bitterness, and angst from the war that killed a bunch of Generic-NPC-Guys family and friends.

Warforged are an excellent RP opportunity, the race is definately powerful... but has some limitations.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XIII 09-27-06, 12:06 PM	My playing group and the DM were having a discussion about a point in the game we dont like. Our group is made of a Warforged and 3 humans all with Ring of Sustenance, so we need 2 hours of sleep to make it a night. Can we walk more than 8 hours a day? What happened is we were trying to stay ahead of a group of treasure hunter. So we walked 8 hours, made forced march for 2 more, and then slept 2 hours, and then we wanted to walk another 8 hours, but the DM said there was a rule against that. But he coldnt find it. Is it true? None of us can see in the darkest hours of the night, so thats when we stop to sleep. lets say thats about 6 hours. That leave us at least 16 hours of walk per day... Thanks for your replies! XIII
Bringslite 09-27-06, 01:39 PM	What about taking care of your horses, animal companions, spell casters. Spell casters still need 8 hours of rest. Firewood has to be gathered, good campsites located and secured, equipement mended, swords sharpened, armor oiled, bedrolls unrolled then rerolled, possibly tents set up and taken down, wounds tended, time for breaks (Idon't believe that ring of sustenance prevents fatigue from physical exertion) etc, etc. The above list could go on and on listing all of the daily chores nessesary(sp?) to keep a group of travelers going. The 8hrs/day max travel rule is writen to reflect these things.
Captn Blake 09-27-06, 01:52 PM	True, true. But then ultimately, if the DM doesn't want to allow that - that's totally his call. DM = God. But it works a lot better if he can come up with some logic (like that provided by Bringslite above) to explain why he won't allow it. As a player, you should trust that there is a good reason why that play is disallowed. Perhaps the story arc relies on the fact that the treasure hunter outpaces you. A good DM will mask this fact (throwing other obsticles in there to slow you down, roleplay or monster, or provide logic as to how the treasurehunter is staying ahead of the group) but ultimately, you should probably yield to the DM. Unless you think he's really up to no good. Then I'd find a new DM. :)
Cifer 09-27-06, 02:06 PM	I disagree with Bringslite. While spellcasters probably still need their full 8 hours (it's not specified in the ring description - has anyone looked up FAQ on that?), this doesn't seem to be the issue here - I also guess that no horses or other usual creatures would be present. The ring provides nourishment, so food and drinking is also out. What do you need a fire for if you don't cook, provided it's not too cold and the group has brought decent sleeping mats? The chores mentioned will probably be done by the warforged who has got two full hours of time for them since he doesn't even need sleep. Still, you will need a period of rest after each 8+X hours of travel. This means you could divide your day as follows, depending on the season: Stand up at around 0400, walk for ten hours from 0430 till 1430, rest from 1430 till 1700 and march till around 2200 or whenever it starts to be pitchblack. With generous use of torches, lanterns and sunrods, this could be further optimized when you believe yourself to be in a relatively safe environment. You might truly manage a 9.5h walking-2.5h rest -9.5 h walking-2.5h rest cycle for about 19 hours of traveling per day. It should be obvious that after sleeping for eight hours the eight hour period of unproblematic traveling begins anew. The only thing that changes now is that instead of eight hours, you need only two to sleep.
orionm42 09-27-06, 02:26 PM	It should be obvious that after sleeping for eight hours the eight hour period of unproblematic traveling begins anew. The only thing that changes now is that instead of eight hours, you need only two to sleep. That would seem obvious, but I am not sure it is wholly supported by the RAW. The rules as written state the following... Walk: A character can walk 8 hours in a day of travel without a problem. Walking for longer than that can wear him or her out (see Forced March, below). Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating. A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It’s possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard. RAW is that you can only walk for 8 hours in a day without risking fatigue. A day is generally 24 hours. Therefore, by RAW, you can only walk 8 hours in that 24 hour period before you enter a forced march and risk becoming fatigued. Technically, this appears to be the case even if you break up your walking with periods of sleep during that 24 hours. I agree that does not make logical sense, and it would seem as though you should be able to break up 8 hour periods of walking with 2 hours of rest, but I think the DM in question, by not allowing it, reasonably interpreted the RAW.
XIII 09-27-06, 02:32 PM	To update the information i gave earlier : We are on Xen'Drik (jungle environment) and dont have any horses, and no spellcaster (Fighter, Scout, Dragon Shaman and Psion ((yes, its a spellcaster but his 8 hours of rest are for a day period (24h) so he cant learn new spells after each sleep time, its on a 24 hours timer.)) The thing is if we travel 2x8 hours, we still have 8 hours of rest :D Thanks for all the replies, i am still looking for more, as i need to show this thread to my DM tonight :D Thanks! XIII
Sereno 09-27-06, 02:54 PM	So far as I can tell, the Ring of Sustenance does nothing for the physical tiring of muscles being used constantly (as in forced-march walking). So if you walked eight hours, then wanted for forced-march eight more, the ring wouldn't help at all. Though it makes no mention of forced-marches. However, the description does mention that the ring "refreshes the body and mind", so I'd allow the two hour break to be the same as an eight-hour sleep. IMC, you'd only be making forced-march Con checks if you tried to walk longer than 8 hours without a full rest (2 hours with Ring, or 8 hours without).... I can't really see spending 8 whole hours of each travelling-day making and breaking camp.
HamHam 09-27-06, 03:05 PM	The question is, I think, about the ratio of resting to walking. From experience, I would say that simply resting two hours is not enough to fully recover from having walked 8 hours, particularly if you're carrying equipment. On the other hand, 8 hours of rest should fully recover you. How about a system like this: Each hour of walking gives you a unit of "fatigue". The first 8 units have no effect, but continuing to walk past that triggers the Forced March rules, with a +2 for each unit you are above 8. Resting for one hour removes a unit of fatigue. So, if you just went walk for 8 then rest for 8 then walk for 8 it would be like so: Day 1: 8 hours walking. Resting 8. Walking 8. Day 2: Resting 8. Walking 8. Resting 8. Day 3: Walking 8. Resting 8. Walking 8. and so forth, giving you an average of 1.5 times your normal travel time with no ill-effects. If you want to Force March, you could do something like: Day 1: Walking 10 (two checks). Resting 6 (four units left). Walking 4 Resting 4 Day 2: Resting 4. Walking 10 (two checks). Resting 6. Walking 4 (four units). Thus in two days forced marched with two checks you get 3.5 times the normal speed. However, this is not sutainable over a long period of time.
ccerose 09-27-06, 03:16 PM	Psion ((yes, its a spellcaster but his 8 hours of rest are for a day period (24h) so he cant learn new spells after each sleep time, its on a 24 hours timer.) XIII You mentioned the psion, but do any of the other characters have abilities that are X uses/day? Those would also fall in that 24 hour period.
pres_man 09-27-06, 03:25 PM	The warforge if he does not have a ring, then he at least would be limited. Unless he is immune to non-lethal damage? I don't know exactly what they get that is the same as living creatures and not.
Epicweaver 09-27-06, 03:36 PM	While it's true that I don't think for your party a simple 2 hour period is too little for all in the ins and outs of resting... 8 hours travel time 16 hours camping Of the 16 hours only 8 is devoted to sleeping. The other 8 is assumed to be devoted to preparing camp, repairing gear, plotting navigation, tending horses, campfire, tents, cooking, eating, cleaning, etc... I think you could definately cut 6 hours out of the 16. You could probably cut more time out depending on what your party is prepared to do to make resting faster (always carrying rations, conjuring food/water, conjuring shelter, etc). It would be reasonable to scale total camp time down a few hours more of all those conditions were met... On the other hand, you must consider required amount of time spent to maintain durability on equipment... so... You COULD rest 2 hours and go, but I (as a DM) would cause damage to begin to effect all equipment due to lack of care (weather exposure, combat damages, hostile environments, natural pests, etc). I'd say 6 hours total is a fair trade off. Your Psion must still rest for 8 hours to recover his power points (unless you're using some sort of house rules). This would tactic on a minimum rest period of 8 hours that I'd push to 10 to accomodate the extra work the other party members would need to do to carry the extra work that the Psion would normally have to contribute. Daily Power Point Acquisition: To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points. Emphasis mine.
Epicweaver 09-27-06, 03:40 PM	The warforge if he does not have a ring, then he at least would be limited. Unless he is immune to non-lethal damage? I don't know exactly what they get that is the same as living creatures and not. Living Construct Subtype (Ex) does not need to eat, drink, sleep, or breath. immune to fatigue and exhaustion The warforged could travel all day long without ever stopping, he would still be exposed to nonlethal damage from weather explosure and natural hazards though.
HamHam 09-27-06, 04:17 PM	Your Psion must still rest for 8 hours to recover his power points (unless you're using some sort of house rules). This would tactic on a minimum rest period of 8 hours that I'd push to 10 to accomodate the extra work the other party members would need to do to carry the extra work that the Psion would normally have to contribute. However, if he isn't using any or doesn't want to regain them, it's not needed.
pres_man 09-27-06, 04:25 PM	Living Construct Subtype (Ex) does not need to eat, drink, sleep, or breath. immune to fatigue and exhaustion Wow, and no level adjustment? That is kind of kooky, I mean free ring of Sustenance effect +, and immune to spells that cause fatigue or exhaustion. No level adjustment because they are difficult to heal (though not impossible)? Something seems wrong there.
Epicweaver 09-27-06, 04:51 PM	Wow, and no level adjustment? That is kind of kooky, I mean free ring of Sustenance effect +, and immune to spells that cause fatigue or exhaustion. No level adjustment because they are difficult to heal (though not impossible)? Something seems wrong there. Well, they have more drawbacks... like being considered two types for the purposes of spells..+2/-2/-2 on racials... but get a few more buffs too... I don't know, I've been running Eberron for months and my players are still stuck in the human/elf mindset.... /shrug There's also a strong RP drawback... Stereotypically your average person will probably treat you more like a machine then a person (despite the Treaty) and on many occasions you will be viewed as a piece of junk that represents all the pain, bitterness, and angst from the war that killed a bunch of Generic-NPC-Guys family and friends. Warforged are an excellent RP opportunity, the race is definately powerful... but has some limitations.