Characters not Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Characters not Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
11d7
04-17-05, 02:30 PM Have your player or you ever want to play a concept that would either be too weak through multicasting or possibly unachievable with any combination of core classes?

My group has and we found a solution that we would like to share with you. This solution was not draw from this source but does strike a parallel to a number of old school videogame RPGs. In these RPGs like Breath of Fire III and Star Ocean 2 your characters did not have classes, they progressed as individuals. This main steams from the fact that in D&D Feats represent an individuals abilities others of their class might not have but there is a lot they don’t cover yet, and some they will never cover.

What if I want to play a fighter who is just like a normal human fighter but was born with 2 or 3 psychic powers? I could take a level in Psychic Warrior but they don’t have the powers I might want and don’t have the BAB I want either. Say I want a Fighter who at level 1 gains Improved Natural Healing (heals twice as much as normal from sleep), then at level 3 gains the ability to Detect Thoughts at will, and at level 5 gains a the ability to jump really high and far (like 30ft into the air as a move action), not with the jump skill but with some kind of power that doesn’t exist in D&D and more than likely never will? The problem is that these things are to powerful to be feats, but no class has them the way the character concept needs them. I could only gain Detect Thoughts through multiclassing but then it would be casting a spell, not a natural ability and it would be to limited for the concept not to mention destroy the part about them being a melee fighter.

The idea of having a party of individuals is much better than having one of 4 people with different classes, each one covering a base and only able to perform in that fashion. The fighter tanks, the rogue skills, socials and sneaks, the cleric heals and buffs and the wizard blasts and utilities.

In the party my group is working out now there are 5 people. The above mentioned telepathic sword fighter who wears not armor but gets a monk like AC deal, a spellcaster who can not only cast some arcane spells but she has a scaling shape shifting power (like the Druid), a big strong guy who fights with a hammer and can cause shockwave effects and has DR and energy resistance, a guy who is a mechanical genius and can take out traps but isn’t sneaky at all, rather he has high tech weapons and finally and ninja character who can cast healing spells and can jump like the fighter.

With multiclassing these characters would need to be: Fighter/Psion still without some parts, Sorcerer/Druid still without some parts, Barbarian without the class feature he wants, Rogue who wastes one of their two class abilities and Ninja/Cleric still without everything they want.

They would also be fairly high level before they could even be effective at what they want, making them die too easily. Their HP would be too high for low level stuff and all of their abilities would be too weak for higher levels.

The fairest way to implement this system is have players plan out their character up to level 5, before this point they can’t change what they are going to have, then they designed up to 10 once they reach 5, etc. The DM should also make sure that certain abilities are not being abused like having Cure Light Wounds or Magic Missile at will in their first few levels. These characters would still gain feats from leveling up as normal. Also the medium save progression from d20 modern is a large help when trying to balance custom classes.

In the last few days we have designed and tested about 14 of these custom classes and so far we have not made anything game breaking, unless that game was very specific and never deviated which no good campaigns are. These classes were also built around the 26 point buy my group uses but I’m sure a few points doesn’t really makes a difference.

This also eliminates metagaming enemies’ capabilities. PC level NPCs and lower powered NPC you can reply here or PM me.
Lord Ian Stark
04-17-05, 02:39 PM I think you can do whatever you want within the limits (If thats what you call them) of the classes and templates that exist in all the splat books and core rules.

Does this mean you have to go out and personally buy every book? No, but with 6 people, you could have a good amount of books to choose from.

I understand your group wants to do this or that without any guidelines or restrictions to puting it within reason of a skill/feat/class ability, however once you go outside what has been published and playtested you run the risk of doing some serious "uber" and "powergaming" things.

But if you and the whole group are fine with it then go ahead. Fun is the number one reason we all play.
Hengwrt Ellesmere
04-17-05, 03:01 PM Check out the "generic" classes in Unearthed Arcana. All the class features have been converted into feats, except for BAB, HP, skill points, and caster progression. You can freely multiclass as warrior (more like core fighter than npc warrior), expert (like npc expert but with lots of feats to spend on class features), or caster (like sorcerer but you can pick your casting attribute and spell lists).
11d7
04-17-05, 03:19 PM Check out the "generic" classes in Unearthed Arcana. All the class features have been converted into feats, except for BAB, HP, skill points, and caster progression. You can freely multiclass as warrior (more like core fighter than npc warrior), expert (like npc expert but with lots of feats to spend on class features), or caster (like sorcerer but you can pick your casting attribute and spell lists).

I've seen the classes but they still arnt what I'm looking for. I posted this for other to read, not becuase I'm looking for help.
wordserpent
04-17-05, 03:31 PM Have your player or you ever want to play a concept that would either be too weak through multicasting or possibly unachievable with any combination of core classes?

My group has and we found a solution that we would like to share with you...

What if I want to play a...

The idea of having a party of individuals is much better than having one of 4 people with different classes, each one covering a base and only able to...

Congratulations! You have just invented GURPS D20.

(I really like your idea.)
Fixxxer
04-17-05, 05:44 PM Congratulations! You have just invented GURPS D20.

Wasn't that part of GURPS 4th edition?
fatal error
04-17-05, 06:08 PM And so, this is where you should multi-system, or simply switch systems entirely. Giving custom powers in DnD is CAN be EXTREMELY dangerous, depending on what your players plan to do with them. This is really reminding me on mutants & masterminds... Anyway, hope it works for your game.
11d7
04-17-05, 07:14 PM I hate it when people bring up switching systems. I like D&Ds basic frame work, I dont like the basic frame work of any other system I've tryed. I don't however like whats been done with the frame work all the time.
wordserpent
04-17-05, 08:18 PM I hate it when people bring up switching systems. I like D&Ds basic frame work, I dont like the basic frame work of any other system I've tryed. I don't however like whats been done with the frame work all the time.

I was merely making the comparison of character building in your game to that of GURPS. I don't think you should switch systems if you dont want to.

In fact, the way you do things might be the building blocks of a Super Hero rpg in the D20 system if you felt like going that far.
11d7
04-17-05, 08:24 PM Your right Wordserpent, me and my freinds should try and publish our thing in the OGL thingy.
wordserpent
04-17-05, 08:29 PM Your right Wordserpent, me and my freinds should try and publish our thing in the OGL thingy.

Go for it. I'd gladly playtest it.
11d7
04-17-05, 08:31 PM weird double post a few minutes after the origonal? lol
Shaken, not Stunned
04-17-05, 08:41 PM You should take another look at UA, especially the section where they provide a single class ability for class ability trade (just before the domain wizard varient). I think that by using this system, you can get a really good idea of what is balanced. For example, a fighter can trade bonus feats for sneak attack. A wizard can trade his bonus feats for fighter bonus feats at every fifth level. So it would go to figure that the wizard can trade those feats for sneak attack instead, but only gaining a sneak attack dice at every fifth level.

If you expand on this a bit and start comparing classes (particularly those with interesting abilities such as those published in the complete series) you may find that this method of swapping is the most balanced way to create varient classes.

I would also suggest you take a look at bloodlines, which could easily affect your psychic fighter (if you didn't just want to run a psychic warrior, that is).

And lastly, the almighty HD scaling template, which would rapidly and efficiently give you a simple way to grant extraordinary powers to otherwise standard PCs.

BTW, Mutants and masterminds is an awesome d20 engine system which is structured around this very idea.
Otto the Bugbear
04-17-05, 10:04 PM The DM should also make sure that certain abilities are not being abused...

This is the most important part of your idea. It'll also be the hardest for people to hold to. Without experience DMing, it will be hard for some to judge what is abusable, and what is not.

I've seen something of a semi-related nature over on the classes board. Szatany has done some amazing work rehauling the base classes to provide a LOT more customization for creating even more unique characters. Just check the sticky for classes compilation and you'll see what I mean. (Scroll down for his list, they're listed alphabetically by poster.) Not only does his work proved more flexibility, but is certainly explores some archtypes that have been either glossed over or ignored entirely as of yet.

There are some that think this is the way D&D is evolving anyway. Certianly, there are enough classes that provide a list of stuff to choose from. Having said that, it's easy to see why people may think this is the future of D&D. I'd certainly like to see a system that does this, yet is still as simple to learn and play for beginners as the current system is. The usual problem for the pick-a-power games (I'm thinking specifically of the older Champions game, ~1993 or so), is the overwhelming complexity for newbies.

Anyway, sounds like you've got a good system in place. It seems to work for you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it.

Cheers

Otto :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
11d7 04-17-05, 02:30 PM	Have your player or you ever want to play a concept that would either be too weak through multicasting or possibly unachievable with any combination of core classes? My group has and we found a solution that we would like to share with you. This solution was not draw from this source but does strike a parallel to a number of old school videogame RPGs. In these RPGs like Breath of Fire III and Star Ocean 2 your characters did not have classes, they progressed as individuals. This main steams from the fact that in D&D Feats represent an individuals abilities others of their class might not have but there is a lot they don’t cover yet, and some they will never cover. What if I want to play a fighter who is just like a normal human fighter but was born with 2 or 3 psychic powers? I could take a level in Psychic Warrior but they don’t have the powers I might want and don’t have the BAB I want either. Say I want a Fighter who at level 1 gains Improved Natural Healing (heals twice as much as normal from sleep), then at level 3 gains the ability to Detect Thoughts at will, and at level 5 gains a the ability to jump really high and far (like 30ft into the air as a move action), not with the jump skill but with some kind of power that doesn’t exist in D&D and more than likely never will? The problem is that these things are to powerful to be feats, but no class has them the way the character concept needs them. I could only gain Detect Thoughts through multiclassing but then it would be casting a spell, not a natural ability and it would be to limited for the concept not to mention destroy the part about them being a melee fighter. The idea of having a party of individuals is much better than having one of 4 people with different classes, each one covering a base and only able to perform in that fashion. The fighter tanks, the rogue skills, socials and sneaks, the cleric heals and buffs and the wizard blasts and utilities. In the party my group is working out now there are 5 people. The above mentioned telepathic sword fighter who wears not armor but gets a monk like AC deal, a spellcaster who can not only cast some arcane spells but she has a scaling shape shifting power (like the Druid), a big strong guy who fights with a hammer and can cause shockwave effects and has DR and energy resistance, a guy who is a mechanical genius and can take out traps but isn’t sneaky at all, rather he has high tech weapons and finally and ninja character who can cast healing spells and can jump like the fighter. With multiclassing these characters would need to be: Fighter/Psion still without some parts, Sorcerer/Druid still without some parts, Barbarian without the class feature he wants, Rogue who wastes one of their two class abilities and Ninja/Cleric still without everything they want. They would also be fairly high level before they could even be effective at what they want, making them die too easily. Their HP would be too high for low level stuff and all of their abilities would be too weak for higher levels. The fairest way to implement this system is have players plan out their character up to level 5, before this point they can’t change what they are going to have, then they designed up to 10 once they reach 5, etc. The DM should also make sure that certain abilities are not being abused like having Cure Light Wounds or Magic Missile at will in their first few levels. These characters would still gain feats from leveling up as normal. Also the medium save progression from d20 modern is a large help when trying to balance custom classes. In the last few days we have designed and tested about 14 of these custom classes and so far we have not made anything game breaking, unless that game was very specific and never deviated which no good campaigns are. These classes were also built around the 26 point buy my group uses but I’m sure a few points doesn’t really makes a difference. This also eliminates metagaming enemies’ capabilities. PC level NPCs and lower powered NPC you can reply here or PM me.
Lord Ian Stark 04-17-05, 02:39 PM	I think you can do whatever you want within the limits (If thats what you call them) of the classes and templates that exist in all the splat books and core rules. Does this mean you have to go out and personally buy every book? No, but with 6 people, you could have a good amount of books to choose from. I understand your group wants to do this or that without any guidelines or restrictions to puting it within reason of a skill/feat/class ability, however once you go outside what has been published and playtested you run the risk of doing some serious "uber" and "powergaming" things. But if you and the whole group are fine with it then go ahead. Fun is the number one reason we all play.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 04-17-05, 03:01 PM	Check out the "generic" classes in Unearthed Arcana. All the class features have been converted into feats, except for BAB, HP, skill points, and caster progression. You can freely multiclass as warrior (more like core fighter than npc warrior), expert (like npc expert but with lots of feats to spend on class features), or caster (like sorcerer but you can pick your casting attribute and spell lists).
11d7 04-17-05, 03:19 PM	Check out the "generic" classes in Unearthed Arcana. All the class features have been converted into feats, except for BAB, HP, skill points, and caster progression. You can freely multiclass as warrior (more like core fighter than npc warrior), expert (like npc expert but with lots of feats to spend on class features), or caster (like sorcerer but you can pick your casting attribute and spell lists). I've seen the classes but they still arnt what I'm looking for. I posted this for other to read, not becuase I'm looking for help.
wordserpent 04-17-05, 03:31 PM	Have your player or you ever want to play a concept that would either be too weak through multicasting or possibly unachievable with any combination of core classes? My group has and we found a solution that we would like to share with you... What if I want to play a... The idea of having a party of individuals is much better than having one of 4 people with different classes, each one covering a base and only able to... Congratulations! You have just invented GURPS D20. (I really like your idea.)
Fixxxer 04-17-05, 05:44 PM	Congratulations! You have just invented GURPS D20. Wasn't that part of GURPS 4th edition?
fatal error 04-17-05, 06:08 PM	And so, this is where you should multi-system, or simply switch systems entirely. Giving custom powers in DnD is CAN be EXTREMELY dangerous, depending on what your players plan to do with them. This is really reminding me on mutants & masterminds... Anyway, hope it works for your game.
11d7 04-17-05, 07:14 PM	I hate it when people bring up switching systems. I like D&Ds basic frame work, I dont like the basic frame work of any other system I've tryed. I don't however like whats been done with the frame work all the time.
wordserpent 04-17-05, 08:18 PM	I hate it when people bring up switching systems. I like D&Ds basic frame work, I dont like the basic frame work of any other system I've tryed. I don't however like whats been done with the frame work all the time. I was merely making the comparison of character building in your game to that of GURPS. I don't think you should switch systems if you dont want to. In fact, the way you do things might be the building blocks of a Super Hero rpg in the D20 system if you felt like going that far.
11d7 04-17-05, 08:24 PM	Your right Wordserpent, me and my freinds should try and publish our thing in the OGL thingy.
wordserpent 04-17-05, 08:29 PM	Your right Wordserpent, me and my freinds should try and publish our thing in the OGL thingy. Go for it. I'd gladly playtest it.
11d7 04-17-05, 08:31 PM	weird double post a few minutes after the origonal? lol
Shaken, not Stunned 04-17-05, 08:41 PM	You should take another look at UA, especially the section where they provide a single class ability for class ability trade (just before the domain wizard varient). I think that by using this system, you can get a really good idea of what is balanced. For example, a fighter can trade bonus feats for sneak attack. A wizard can trade his bonus feats for fighter bonus feats at every fifth level. So it would go to figure that the wizard can trade those feats for sneak attack instead, but only gaining a sneak attack dice at every fifth level. If you expand on this a bit and start comparing classes (particularly those with interesting abilities such as those published in the complete series) you may find that this method of swapping is the most balanced way to create varient classes. I would also suggest you take a look at bloodlines, which could easily affect your psychic fighter (if you didn't just want to run a psychic warrior, that is). And lastly, the almighty HD scaling template, which would rapidly and efficiently give you a simple way to grant extraordinary powers to otherwise standard PCs. BTW, Mutants and masterminds is an awesome d20 engine system which is structured around this very idea.
Otto the Bugbear 04-17-05, 10:04 PM	The DM should also make sure that certain abilities are not being abused... This is the most important part of your idea. It'll also be the hardest for people to hold to. Without experience DMing, it will be hard for some to judge what is abusable, and what is not. I've seen something of a semi-related nature over on the classes board. Szatany has done some amazing work rehauling the base classes to provide a LOT more customization for creating even more unique characters. Just check the sticky for classes compilation and you'll see what I mean. (Scroll down for his list, they're listed alphabetically by poster.) Not only does his work proved more flexibility, but is certainly explores some archtypes that have been either glossed over or ignored entirely as of yet. There are some that think this is the way D&D is evolving anyway. Certianly, there are enough classes that provide a list of stuff to choose from. Having said that, it's easy to see why people may think this is the future of D&D. I'd certainly like to see a system that does this, yet is still as simple to learn and play for beginners as the current system is. The usual problem for the pick-a-power games (I'm thinking specifically of the older Champions game, ~1993 or so), is the overwhelming complexity for newbies. Anyway, sounds like you've got a good system in place. It seems to work for you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. Cheers Otto :)