Characters of Liminal Alignments? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Characters of Liminal Alignments? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Quenditar
11-28-04, 08:38 PM I'm sure the subject has been brought up before - but I'm bringing it up again. Rather than characters prototypical of a certain alignment, I could very much use a list of fictional characters on the borderline between two alignments - to judge whether a character is going over the line with dubious actions, like, say, fireballing a gnoll lair even though (presumably) most of the males have already marched out to war and been killed in battle.

I'll throw one out for everyone to scream about - Lina Inverse, borderline between CN and CE. Others are welcome!
Aeromus
11-28-04, 09:25 PM Lina Inverse isn't boarderline, she's Simply CN.

King Authur from the newest movie is -Lawful Nuetral-Lawful Good

Eliott Stabler (Law and Order SVU) is Chaotic Good - Choatic Nuetral

If you're looking for nuetral to evil comparisons... those are hard to come by, as basicially there is no walking that line. Either you're nuetral...or you're evil.

In other words, once can be nuetral and do good things. But, you can't claim nuetrality then do evil thinks. If you did that, you'd be evil. Not nuetral.

Look at it this way... Nuetral people would rather live with/near good people. In Dragonlance(t) The Red Wizards, NEVER allied with the Black Wizards, always the white.
Quenditar
11-28-04, 10:21 PM Lina Inverse isn't boarderline, she's Simply CN.
I've had long, long arguments on the subject of whether's she's CN or CE - personally, I go for CN, but anyone who turns villages into craters on a regular basis is close to that borderline.
If you're looking for nuetral to evil comparisons... those are hard to come by, as basicially there is no walking that line. Either you're nuetral...or you're evil.
I gather you haven't met my group. If they're not blowing whole orc villages to kingdom come, they're stripping clothes off corpses (in a city street, no less), "borrowing" orphans without permission to support a story in court (see above), or enslaving prisoners of war. The precise neutral-evil line will be important sooner or later.
Carkni
11-29-04, 12:02 AM I haven't finished the series, but she seems CE to me. Blows up villages, berates her lessers, insults her lessers, steals, kills, lies, and the like.

Now, the fun thing about playing in an anime setting is that there is no alignment because the "good guys" have evil guys on their side, and vice versa. Look at any epic.
clarkvalentine
11-29-04, 12:31 AM Lando Calrissian - LN in EMPIRE where he sells out his friend - this isn't evil, as he does it in order to save the city from Imperial occupation. Shifts to LG as he joins the Rebellion.

Anakin Skywalker shows his first flash of NE when he slaughters the sandpeople in Attack of the Clones, but seems to revert back to TN afterward.

Raistlin Majere at the start of the Dragonlance Chronicles novels is LN but borderline LE. He's LE to the core by the time they're in the Blood Sea of Istar.

King Arthur becomes less LG and more LN as his reign goes on, depending on which Arthurian authors you read. Merlin is all LN, and Merlin's influence makes Arthur more ruthless in holding power - in a good cause, to preserve the idealism of Camelot, but Arthur gets his hands dirty doing it.
hiryuu
11-29-04, 01:01 AM I haven't finished the series, but she seems CE to me. Blows up villages, berates her lessers, insults her lessers, steals, kills, lies, and the like.

Says she wants money but often does what's right even when there's no profit in it because it's what has to be done, tends to choose her targets carefully, exploding villages are often accidents....
Quenditar
11-29-04, 02:05 AM See, this is why I'm using Lina as an example of a borderline CN character. The reasoning being that if a character is acting more evilly than Lina, she's probably CE. On the other hand, if I could see Lina doing (insert act of outrageous destruction here), and knew the character would fight the good fight when it counted, I'd keep her at CN.
DrWorm
11-29-04, 02:41 AM Naw...Lando only sold out Han to save his rear. It had nothing to do with lawfullness. In empire TN of CN. After Empire...NG with splashes of Chaos. He has loyalty, but is not really all that interested in obeying laws.
Quenditar
12-01-04, 02:19 AM Hmm - Lando makes a fair benchmark for the Neutral-Chaos line then?
clarkvalentine
12-01-04, 09:28 AM It's arguable that Lando was lawful because he was very concerned about the terms of the bargain he made, and expected the Imperials to be as well. He wasn't necessarily law-abiding, but he was orderly and tried to be true to his agreements.

I'd argue Han was more chaotic than Lando.
CzarGarrett
12-01-04, 09:38 AM Tyrion Lannister: LN-LE-NE
clarkvalentine
12-01-04, 11:33 AM Tyrion Lannister: LN-LE-NE

Great character! I'd call him firmly TN, slipping toward CN/CE by the end. Won't give up any spoilers, though. :D
CzarGarrett
12-01-04, 12:35 PM Eh, I don't see him being TN at any point really. He's always scheming (LE-NE), he's only nice when he serves him to be (XN), and he has a lot of personal family pride (LX).
clarkvalentine
12-01-04, 01:22 PM (Song of Ice and Fire spoiler ahead!)

Eh, I don't see him being TN at any point really. He's always scheming (LE-NE), he's only nice when he serves him to be (XN), and he has a lot of personal family pride (LX).

I dunno. Scheming isn't necessarily evil, he hates his family and betrays them by the end, and is kind to Sansa when he doesn't need to be.

Although it's arguable that the whole point of the SOng of Ice & Fire trilogy is that there's good and evil in everyone. The heroes have their dark sides, and the villains are shown in a sympathetic light from time to time. Nice, clean D&D alignments don't fit well in that world.
The Soul Collector
12-01-04, 02:14 PM This is something that friends of mine and I have been struggling for quite a while. Here is what I’ve come up with and I welcome discussion.
LG – King of Rohan, (Lord of the Rings)
NG – Gandalf (Lord of the Rings)
CG – Robin Hood
LN – King Arthur (Excalibur => Reason, founding of the Knights of the Round Table, all having equal voice. Putting to trail his own wife the queen when accusation of an affair with Lancealot.)
TN – The Ents (Lord of the Rings)
CN – Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean)
LE – Orc soldier/Ring Wraith (Lord of the Rings)
NE – Sauron (Lord of the Rings)
CE – Shelob the Spider (Lord of the Rings)
DrWorm
12-01-04, 02:40 PM It's arguable that Lando was lawful because he was very concerned about the terms of the bargain he made, and expected the Imperials to be as well. He wasn't necessarily law-abiding, but he was orderly and tried to be true to his agreements.

I'd argue Han was more chaotic than Lando.

Again those were selfish motives. He made the deal to stay out of the eye of the empire, but was kinda dumb to think that the empire would hol the bargain. He argued the agreements as they fell apart becuase the agreements were advantageous to him. He really was interested in the all-mighty credit and staying out of the control of the law (empire). Lando- "Sorry buddy, but I got my own problems." Though in the end he takes time to warn his people to get a way as well, he did not have to do that. So he has elements of TN, CN, and CG. Hard to put a well fleshed out character in to the boundries of D&D.
Eightbitmage
12-01-04, 03:06 PM CN – Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean)

really gotta disagree with this, hes more chaotic evil than anything else. Whats his motivation the whole movie: Get back his ship to kill, rape, and steal and kill the man that wronged him. There is no way hes neutral. Just remember just because he doesnt do anything particularly evil during the film, it doesnt mean he isn't evil. Pirates working for independent wealth will rarely be anything other than evil.

And with lina inverse, i would say CN maybe even CG, yes she does mean and nasty things and blows up villages, but the show has a more comedic tone to it, so nobody really gets hurt. If a wizard fireballs the fighter for making her a little made, its evil, but if she knows it wont hurt him and it more slap stick violence it shouldnt affect her alignment.
The Soul Collector
12-01-04, 03:20 PM I don't see how revenge is out of the realm of CN. That line he said when he was about to steal the ship I believe was said in humor, just to propagate the stereotype of a pirate. I know we all know him to be chaotic so let’s discuss his neutral or evil nature. I believe that because he works only for his personal wealth he is neutral and not evil. He would seem just as likely to pillage a British naval ship as he would an American merchant ship or even another pirate ship. Given his actions in the movie, (not killing William Turner, letting the insanely hot Elizabeth go free and not killing her after he uses her to get away from port soldiers) I cannot see him committing typical evil acts such as torture, murder, and rape. He lives for only two things, revenge on Barbosa, and looting. He’s almost like a mercenary of sorts, just interested in money.
Aeromus
12-01-04, 03:28 PM CN – Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean)

really gotta disagree with this, hes more chaotic evil than anything else. Whats his motivation the whole movie: Get back his ship to kill, rape, and steal and kill the man that wronged him. There is no way hes neutral. Just remember just because he doesnt do anything particularly evil during the film, it doesnt mean he isn't evil. Pirates working for independent wealth will rarely be anything other than evil.

He dove into the water to save the girl, without knowing she was rich ect. Surehehas his own motives but, he doesn't say he wants his ship back to rape and pilage... He just says he wants his ship back. I still hold that he was CN. He was niether bad, nor good...

When he was trying to steal the intercepter he didn't kill the two guards, and he surely could have. He tried to sneak around them, a CE person would not have been against murder.
clarkvalentine
12-01-04, 03:31 PM Sparrow also talked about how a person could be a pirate and a good man. We're talking Pirate Movie (tm) pirates here, not real-world thugs. In-genre, there are definitely examples of the noble scallywag. Sparrow's not a guy you'd trust the family silver with, but not one who'd kill you sooner than looking at you either.
Eightbitmage
12-01-04, 03:53 PM Yes but think about what hes going to do once he gets his ship back. Is he going to sail the seas doing good for others? Is he going to sail around looking for treasure and artifacts that nobody owns? Is he going to sneak in to someones house to steal and run at the first sign of noise? No, he is going to steal money from other people by attacking them with his ship and then pludering their goods. Meaning that if someone is a pirate they are probably going to attack people and steal from them, and in the process kill people. So we have the death of innocents, destruction of property, and theft. This seems to describe someone who is quite evil.

Example: You have a PC who whenever they see something very valuable that someone has, they wait until they can get away with it, then they kill them and take it. Personally i think that PC would be evil. The only difference between this and that is scale.

The other important thing, even if jack is CE he was also very intelligent. He wouldnt kill needlessly, because needless deaths often result in getting caught or killed. Just because someone is CE doesnt mean that if they have the chance to kill and it won't hurt them they will take it. As long as CE is intelligent they will only kill when they will benefit from it.
Kainy
12-01-04, 06:30 PM First, I applaud ANY thread that has the words "Lina Inverse" in its second paragraph.

Secondly, Lina is CN, if not CG, if you've seen the whole series (I myself say CN, really). When she destroys villages, it's not out of malice, it's generally accidental. Malice is evil. Comedic accidents are neutral (and comedic).

Lina also does a number of altruistic things throughout her career, and nothing overtly evil, which certainly plants her very well within CN territory. She places herself in deliberate risk to save the world... repeatedly. That's good-ish, or at least N, if she's doing it because everyone dead = her dead, too.

Good thread, though. I can't comment on most of the other characters, having little exposure to them.
Quenditar
12-02-04, 12:50 AM On the subject of Lina: Most of the time, she is in solidly neutral territory, I think. When she's killing bandits for loot, though, she's close to the edge.

I'm having trouble thinking of a character who is just on the TN side of NE, though. Suggestions?
Eightbitmage
12-02-04, 08:56 AM not sure about the chaos law axis, but punisher seems to be on the more neutral side of evil.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quenditar 11-28-04, 08:38 PM	I'm sure the subject has been brought up before - but I'm bringing it up again. Rather than characters prototypical of a certain alignment, I could very much use a list of fictional characters on the borderline between two alignments - to judge whether a character is going over the line with dubious actions, like, say, fireballing a gnoll lair even though (presumably) most of the males have already marched out to war and been killed in battle. I'll throw one out for everyone to scream about - Lina Inverse, borderline between CN and CE. Others are welcome!
Aeromus 11-28-04, 09:25 PM	Lina Inverse isn't boarderline, she's Simply CN. King Authur from the newest movie is -Lawful Nuetral-Lawful Good Eliott Stabler (Law and Order SVU) is Chaotic Good - Choatic Nuetral If you're looking for nuetral to evil comparisons... those are hard to come by, as basicially there is no walking that line. Either you're nuetral...or you're evil. In other words, once can be nuetral and do good things. But, you can't claim nuetrality then do evil thinks. If you did that, you'd be evil. Not nuetral. Look at it this way... Nuetral people would rather live with/near good people. In Dragonlance(t) The Red Wizards, NEVER allied with the Black Wizards, always the white.
Quenditar 11-28-04, 10:21 PM	Lina Inverse isn't boarderline, she's Simply CN. I've had long, long arguments on the subject of whether's she's CN or CE - personally, I go for CN, but anyone who turns villages into craters on a regular basis is close to that borderline. If you're looking for nuetral to evil comparisons... those are hard to come by, as basicially there is no walking that line. Either you're nuetral...or you're evil. I gather you haven't met my group. If they're not blowing whole orc villages to kingdom come, they're stripping clothes off corpses (in a city street, no less), "borrowing" orphans without permission to support a story in court (see above), or enslaving prisoners of war. The precise neutral-evil line will be important sooner or later.
Carkni 11-29-04, 12:02 AM	I haven't finished the series, but she seems CE to me. Blows up villages, berates her lessers, insults her lessers, steals, kills, lies, and the like. Now, the fun thing about playing in an anime setting is that there is no alignment because the "good guys" have evil guys on their side, and vice versa. Look at any epic.
clarkvalentine 11-29-04, 12:31 AM	Lando Calrissian - LN in EMPIRE where he sells out his friend - this isn't evil, as he does it in order to save the city from Imperial occupation. Shifts to LG as he joins the Rebellion. Anakin Skywalker shows his first flash of NE when he slaughters the sandpeople in Attack of the Clones, but seems to revert back to TN afterward. Raistlin Majere at the start of the Dragonlance Chronicles novels is LN but borderline LE. He's LE to the core by the time they're in the Blood Sea of Istar. King Arthur becomes less LG and more LN as his reign goes on, depending on which Arthurian authors you read. Merlin is all LN, and Merlin's influence makes Arthur more ruthless in holding power - in a good cause, to preserve the idealism of Camelot, but Arthur gets his hands dirty doing it.
hiryuu 11-29-04, 01:01 AM	I haven't finished the series, but she seems CE to me. Blows up villages, berates her lessers, insults her lessers, steals, kills, lies, and the like. Says she wants money but often does what's right even when there's no profit in it because it's what has to be done, tends to choose her targets carefully, exploding villages are often accidents....
Quenditar 11-29-04, 02:05 AM	See, this is why I'm using Lina as an example of a borderline CN character. The reasoning being that if a character is acting more evilly than Lina, she's probably CE. On the other hand, if I could see Lina doing (insert act of outrageous destruction here), and knew the character would fight the good fight when it counted, I'd keep her at CN.
DrWorm 11-29-04, 02:41 AM	Naw...Lando only sold out Han to save his rear. It had nothing to do with lawfullness. In empire TN of CN. After Empire...NG with splashes of Chaos. He has loyalty, but is not really all that interested in obeying laws.
Quenditar 12-01-04, 02:19 AM	Hmm - Lando makes a fair benchmark for the Neutral-Chaos line then?
clarkvalentine 12-01-04, 09:28 AM	It's arguable that Lando was lawful because he was very concerned about the terms of the bargain he made, and expected the Imperials to be as well. He wasn't necessarily law-abiding, but he was orderly and tried to be true to his agreements. I'd argue Han was more chaotic than Lando.
CzarGarrett 12-01-04, 09:38 AM	Tyrion Lannister: LN-LE-NE
clarkvalentine 12-01-04, 11:33 AM	Tyrion Lannister: LN-LE-NE Great character! I'd call him firmly TN, slipping toward CN/CE by the end. Won't give up any spoilers, though. :D
CzarGarrett 12-01-04, 12:35 PM	Eh, I don't see him being TN at any point really. He's always scheming (LE-NE), he's only nice when he serves him to be (XN), and he has a lot of personal family pride (LX).
clarkvalentine 12-01-04, 01:22 PM	(Song of Ice and Fire spoiler ahead!) Eh, I don't see him being TN at any point really. He's always scheming (LE-NE), he's only nice when he serves him to be (XN), and he has a lot of personal family pride (LX). I dunno. Scheming isn't necessarily evil, he hates his family and betrays them by the end, and is kind to Sansa when he doesn't need to be. Although it's arguable that the whole point of the SOng of Ice & Fire trilogy is that there's good and evil in everyone. The heroes have their dark sides, and the villains are shown in a sympathetic light from time to time. Nice, clean D&D alignments don't fit well in that world.
The Soul Collector 12-01-04, 02:14 PM	This is something that friends of mine and I have been struggling for quite a while. Here is what I’ve come up with and I welcome discussion. LG – King of Rohan, (Lord of the Rings) NG – Gandalf (Lord of the Rings) CG – Robin Hood LN – King Arthur (Excalibur => Reason, founding of the Knights of the Round Table, all having equal voice. Putting to trail his own wife the queen when accusation of an affair with Lancealot.) TN – The Ents (Lord of the Rings) CN – Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean) LE – Orc soldier/Ring Wraith (Lord of the Rings) NE – Sauron (Lord of the Rings) CE – Shelob the Spider (Lord of the Rings)
DrWorm 12-01-04, 02:40 PM	It's arguable that Lando was lawful because he was very concerned about the terms of the bargain he made, and expected the Imperials to be as well. He wasn't necessarily law-abiding, but he was orderly and tried to be true to his agreements. I'd argue Han was more chaotic than Lando. Again those were selfish motives. He made the deal to stay out of the eye of the empire, but was kinda dumb to think that the empire would hol the bargain. He argued the agreements as they fell apart becuase the agreements were advantageous to him. He really was interested in the all-mighty credit and staying out of the control of the law (empire). Lando- "Sorry buddy, but I got my own problems." Though in the end he takes time to warn his people to get a way as well, he did not have to do that. So he has elements of TN, CN, and CG. Hard to put a well fleshed out character in to the boundries of D&D.
Eightbitmage 12-01-04, 03:06 PM	CN – Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean) really gotta disagree with this, hes more chaotic evil than anything else. Whats his motivation the whole movie: Get back his ship to kill, rape, and steal and kill the man that wronged him. There is no way hes neutral. Just remember just because he doesnt do anything particularly evil during the film, it doesnt mean he isn't evil. Pirates working for independent wealth will rarely be anything other than evil. And with lina inverse, i would say CN maybe even CG, yes she does mean and nasty things and blows up villages, but the show has a more comedic tone to it, so nobody really gets hurt. If a wizard fireballs the fighter for making her a little made, its evil, but if she knows it wont hurt him and it more slap stick violence it shouldnt affect her alignment.
The Soul Collector 12-01-04, 03:20 PM	I don't see how revenge is out of the realm of CN. That line he said when he was about to steal the ship I believe was said in humor, just to propagate the stereotype of a pirate. I know we all know him to be chaotic so let’s discuss his neutral or evil nature. I believe that because he works only for his personal wealth he is neutral and not evil. He would seem just as likely to pillage a British naval ship as he would an American merchant ship or even another pirate ship. Given his actions in the movie, (not killing William Turner, letting the insanely hot Elizabeth go free and not killing her after he uses her to get away from port soldiers) I cannot see him committing typical evil acts such as torture, murder, and rape. He lives for only two things, revenge on Barbosa, and looting. He’s almost like a mercenary of sorts, just interested in money.
Aeromus 12-01-04, 03:28 PM	CN – Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean) really gotta disagree with this, hes more chaotic evil than anything else. Whats his motivation the whole movie: Get back his ship to kill, rape, and steal and kill the man that wronged him. There is no way hes neutral. Just remember just because he doesnt do anything particularly evil during the film, it doesnt mean he isn't evil. Pirates working for independent wealth will rarely be anything other than evil. He dove into the water to save the girl, without knowing she was rich ect. Surehehas his own motives but, he doesn't say he wants his ship back to rape and pilage... He just says he wants his ship back. I still hold that he was CN. He was niether bad, nor good... When he was trying to steal the intercepter he didn't kill the two guards, and he surely could have. He tried to sneak around them, a CE person would not have been against murder.
clarkvalentine 12-01-04, 03:31 PM	Sparrow also talked about how a person could be a pirate and a good man. We're talking Pirate Movie (tm) pirates here, not real-world thugs. In-genre, there are definitely examples of the noble scallywag. Sparrow's not a guy you'd trust the family silver with, but not one who'd kill you sooner than looking at you either.
Eightbitmage 12-01-04, 03:53 PM	Yes but think about what hes going to do once he gets his ship back. Is he going to sail the seas doing good for others? Is he going to sail around looking for treasure and artifacts that nobody owns? Is he going to sneak in to someones house to steal and run at the first sign of noise? No, he is going to steal money from other people by attacking them with his ship and then pludering their goods. Meaning that if someone is a pirate they are probably going to attack people and steal from them, and in the process kill people. So we have the death of innocents, destruction of property, and theft. This seems to describe someone who is quite evil. Example: You have a PC who whenever they see something very valuable that someone has, they wait until they can get away with it, then they kill them and take it. Personally i think that PC would be evil. The only difference between this and that is scale. The other important thing, even if jack is CE he was also very intelligent. He wouldnt kill needlessly, because needless deaths often result in getting caught or killed. Just because someone is CE doesnt mean that if they have the chance to kill and it won't hurt them they will take it. As long as CE is intelligent they will only kill when they will benefit from it.
Kainy 12-01-04, 06:30 PM	First, I applaud ANY thread that has the words "Lina Inverse" in its second paragraph. Secondly, Lina is CN, if not CG, if you've seen the whole series (I myself say CN, really). When she destroys villages, it's not out of malice, it's generally accidental. Malice is evil. Comedic accidents are neutral (and comedic). Lina also does a number of altruistic things throughout her career, and nothing overtly evil, which certainly plants her very well within CN territory. She places herself in deliberate risk to save the world... repeatedly. That's good-ish, or at least N, if she's doing it because everyone dead = her dead, too. Good thread, though. I can't comment on most of the other characters, having little exposure to them.
Quenditar 12-02-04, 12:50 AM	On the subject of Lina: Most of the time, she is in solidly neutral territory, I think. When she's killing bandits for loot, though, she's close to the edge. I'm having trouble thinking of a character who is just on the TN side of NE, though. Suggestions?
Eightbitmage 12-02-04, 08:56 AM	not sure about the chaos law axis, but punisher seems to be on the more neutral side of evil.