Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bjorn Farok 07-21-03, 04:26 PM	Clarification of the rules needed here friends... After looking at a little diagram in the 3.5 PHB on page 138, I've finally got a clear answer to one of the annoying little questions that have been hovering around my head... Tordek (dwarf with axe) charges Troll X( with 10 foot reach). Apparently Troll X gets a free swing at Tordek before he gets stuck by the mighty dwarf. I guess I can live with that, my problem is the kettle of fish it opens further...i.e. the glorious paladin upon his mount charges ye dragone of olde with his trusty lance...the beast its 20ft reach and combat reflexes gets 3 whacks at him before he can connect once with a measely +2. And does he have the -2 to AC the whole trip through? I guess I never really thought about it before in such detail, but that means weapons with crazy reach can charge from 10-15 feet away and stop your charge??? Seems wacky, but I just want to make sure I got it straight if I could get some verification please. Thanks, Bjorn
Bjorn Farok 07-21-03, 04:32 PM	OMG....nm charge...if I just want to get into melee range with ye olde dragon ala advancing on it, I either take 5 foot steps all the way and take round after round of unmet barrages of attacks, or move in and take 3 attacks of oppurtunity to put me in position to take one, and then watch him bound back with a withdraw and take 3 more whacks... I'm gonna have to sit down with my sized-up great-axe wielding Half-Ogre tommorow =(
Erus 07-21-03, 04:35 PM	Page 141 PHB, (also page 154) Charge does not draw an AoO. Also, Combat reflexes does not allow you mulitple AoOs on the same opponent unless they do more than one thing during the round to provoke. Erus.
Bjorn Farok 07-21-03, 04:35 PM	WHOA I'M A CRAPPY DM! What happens when Purple wurm X is flanked on either side and moves forward to get the guy infront of him. Sections of him move forward but he doesn't acutally "leave a threatned space"??? I'm so confused :confused: :confused: :confused: I'll stop and try to let people answer now....I hope... Bjorn
tarkin 07-21-03, 04:38 PM	You can AoO on someone who simply moves within a threatened space. As in fighter vs Monster, fighter starts at 1 and moves to 3: ... 1m3 .2. then the fighter takes an AoO for moving within an threatened area. Similarlly when the Purple Worm moves, more than 5ft, he takes the AoO.
Bjorn Farok 07-21-03, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by Erus Page 141 PHB, (also page 154) Charge does not draw an AoO. Also, Combat reflexes does not allow you mulitple AoOs on the same opponent unless they do more than one thing during the round to provoke. Erus. Unfortunately, subscript 1 for AoO column on the chart you mention on 141 says that it refers only to the actual charge attack and not towards any movement you make during this action - ala passing by an orc while charging the troll still does and apparently with the troll as well as displayed in the mentioned caption on pg. 138 "Attacks of Oppurtunity" Also on the second point you made concerning the Combat Reflexes refers to the last line for benefit: "You can still make only one attack of oppurtunity per oppurtunity" PHB 92 Since the attack does not provoke it and the movement does, would it not mean that each time you move through an additional 5 feet of threatened area that you provoke a new AoO, not the entire movement?
Bjorn Farok 07-21-03, 04:46 PM	Originally posted by tarkin You can AoO on someone who simply moves within a threatened space. As in fighter vs Monster, fighter starts at 1 and moves to 3: ... 1m3 .2. then the fighter takes an AoO for moving within an threatened area. Similarlly when the Purple Worm moves, more than 5ft, he takes the AoO. That's what I though on this one and how I played it in the past, however really puts a damper on use long enemies that only really attack with their mouths such as worms and snakes. :(
Erus 07-21-03, 04:48 PM	Thats what I'm reading up on now... Not sure on that ruling but it does look like every 'threatend' square you leave would draw an attack, just not sure if its considered 3 opportunities or one... (moving 3 squares into/through a large critter's threated area) Erus.
Bjorn Farok 07-21-03, 04:52 PM	I guess in the grand scheme of things I'm concerned how this works as the Half-Ogre in the campaign is really starting to over shadow the others in the damage department. The only resolve is that he's a level under the rest and rolled low on the old HP, but if he decides he's going to take combat reflexes now, that big old axe of his is gonna real depress some other PCs. Not to mention I played with Frost Giants a few weeks ago and I'm shocked how well they did for their CR and I didn't even to take into account the AoO they should have got everytime someone got too close!
darkside 07-21-03, 08:33 PM	Not to mention I played with Frost Giants a few weeks ago and I'm shocked how well they did for their CR and I didn't even to take into account the AoO they should have got everytime someone got too close! I think it's generally agreed that CRs are fairly whacked. I've had a 4th level party take out a CR 8 without even blinking, and then get decimated by a single displacer beast. I tend to adjust experience a lot based on how difficult the combat actually was, and only use the experience indicated by CR as a rough guideline at best. And to reiterate what everyone else has said: yes, charging at a creature with 20 ft. reach who has combat reflexes would provoke 3 separate attacks. Each 5 ft. move inside the threatened space is a separate provocation. Of course, this doesn't apply if the creature is flat-footed. Which is, of course, the best time to charge. That's why barbarians get d12s...
Fixxxer 07-21-03, 11:26 PM	Since the attack does not provoke it and the movement does, would it not mean that each time you move through an additional 5 feet of threatened area that you provoke a new AoO, not the entire movement? Technically, yes...that's what it would mean. However, unless the ruling has been changed in 3.5 (which I haven't gotten around to reading yet), you can only make one attack of opportunity on a single person per round. This means that while Combat Reflexes lets you make, say four attacks of opportunity per round, you can't use more than one of them on a single target.
Heron_Marked_Blade 07-22-03, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Technically, yes...that's what it would mean. However, unless the ruling has been changed in 3.5 (which I haven't gotten around to reading yet), you can only make one attack of opportunity on a single person per round. This means that while Combat Reflexes lets you make, say four attacks of opportunity per round, you can't use more than one of them on a single target. That's the way I've always played it in 3.0. It's different in 3.5, though. My players have always tried to convince me that although it's only one AoO per round per person, a second one is allowed if the person provokes more than one AoO in a round. I.e. Joram standing up and drinking a healing potion would provoke two AoOs (one for standing up in a threatened square and another for drinking a potion). According to the 3.5 SRD, they are now correct. A PC with Combat Reflexes can make more than one AoO on the same target in one round if that target takes more than one action that provokes an AoO in that round. Or to use the exact words, This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). In my example above, Joram would get attacked twice if the enemy threatening him had Combat Reflexes. However, the SRD also states: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. So it doesn't matter how great your reach is, you only get one AoO on an enemy who is moving through your threatened spaces toward you. If Joram waltzes through my 15' reach, then drinks a potion when he reaches me, I can take two AoOs on him with my Combat Reflexes. If he just marches through my 15' toward me and attacks, however, I'd only get one AoO on him. That is, at least, how I understand the AoO rules. [edit] Making a Charge attack doesn't provoke an AoO. I don't think that's changed in 3.5.
Zaebos 07-22-03, 05:11 AM	I belive Heron_Marked_Blade is correct. the 3.5 feat says: 'When foes leave themselves open, you may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. For example, a fighter with a Desterity of 15 can make a total of three attacks of opportunity in 1 round-the one attack of opportunity any character is entitled to, plus two more because of his +2 Dexterity bonus. If four goblin move out of the character's threatend sqaures, he can make one attack of opportunity each against three of the four. You can still make only one attack of opportunity per opportunity.' This infers that you only get on attack of opportunity per opportunity. Moving thru a threatend area only invokes ONE oppotunity to attack. Say the charging kingth was to charge ye ol dragon, he would get ONE AoO only, since moving is ONLY ONE opportunity. If the didn't charge but moved thru the threatend squares to stop and drink a potion, the dragon would get 2 AoO's, one for movement, one for drinking the potion.
Bjorn Farok 07-22-03, 08:22 AM	I'm not totally convinced by the argument that a movement counts as an oppurtunity as opposed to the 5 foot blocks, but I may have to house rule that in if I don't want to see it abused. But as always I'd like to have the proof so it's not just a "house rule". That being said, where was this found Heron: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This would be great! But I didn't see it anywhere in the 3.5 combat section?
airhead 07-22-03, 08:37 AM	The charge (combat action) does not provoke an AoO, but the movement (movement) might. Therefore the charging character gets hit (at) once for a charge. If charge provoked an AoO, then the defender could take 2 shots at the charger, one for charging and another for moving (different oppertunities) Charge is slightly confusing as it is a full round action that includes a movement. Now what about ride by attack? Ride-By Attack [General] Prerequisites: Ride skill, Mounted Combat. Benefit: When the character is mounted and uses the charge action, the character may move and attack as with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). The character's total movement for the round can’t exceed double the character's mounted speed. The character does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that the character attacks. Does the move still provoke a possible AoO, and the attack not? That is how I ruled it, otherwise the fighter gets to charge by a monster, smack the heck out of it and ride past without ever worrying about it hitting back.
Heron_Marked_Blade 07-22-03, 09:41 AM	Originally posted by Bjorn Farok But as always I'd like to have the proof so it's not just a "house rule". That being said, where was this found Heron: <snip> I don't have my 3.5 books yet, so I'm operating off of the 3.5 SRD, which can be found *HERE* (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35) Originally posted by Airhead Does the move still provoke a possible AoO, and the attack not? That is how I ruled it, otherwise the fighter gets to charge by a monster, smack the heck out of it and ride past without ever worrying about it hitting back. Attacking doesn't provoke an AoO in the first place. A charge is an action in which the character can move up to double his move (in a straight line) and get a single attack at the end of it. It doesn't provoke an AoO either for the initial move (as long as it's part of the charge) or the attack. With Ride-By Attack, the character can move -- attack -- finish move without provoking an AoO. It's similar to Spring Attack. Now if the character moves through someone else's threatened space on his way to attacking his target, that someone else would get an AoO on the charging character. His target wouldn't, though. I think that's fair, considering the character is spending a feat on it.
Erus 07-22-03, 09:50 AM	I've read it a few times now, and I have found where folks are getting confused. In their example, they mention that the Movement still may provoke an AoO... (From the ORC, not the Troll....) If you charge a foe, he gets no AoO... If you charge a foe, and in that charge, go through a Separate foe's threatened space, the Separate foe gets an AoO on you, NOT the Chargee (is chargee a word?) That seems to clear up a ton, and until I see something from 3.5 stating otherwise, I'm going to go with the quote Bjorn tossed from the SRD... it does make sence that me moving 15 feet through your threatend area that you would provoke One AoO, not 3 individual. On the other hand, If I moved 15 feet through your threatend space, And at the same time, was loading my Xbow... thats 2 individual provokes, so 2 AoO for a foe with C.Reflexes would be perfectly acceptable... Does this ruling sound correct? Erus.
frere loup 07-22-03, 09:56 AM	Also remember that Ride By Attack doesn't protect your mount from drawing attacks of opportunity during the move. However, you can still use Mounted Combat to try and negate the hits against the mount. This information comes from the demonstration of combat between a Ranger and a Paladin found in Sword and Fist.
Zaebos 07-22-03, 02:14 PM	We are just talking about somone with reach greater than 5, right? I looked at the srd, this is all it has to say: Charge [Full][AoO: No] Description: The character must move before attacking, not after. The character must move at least 10 feet and may move up to double base speed. All movement must be in a straight line, with no backing up allowed. The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target. A character can't run past the target and attack from another direction. After moving, the character may make a single melee attack or a bull rush. The character gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll. The character also suffers a -2 penalty to AC for 1 round. A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge. A target can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges by using the ready action against receiving a charge. A weapon of this type deals double damage if the readied attack is successful. This still doesn't answer anything about a creature with reach. It really doesn't matter, though. Your the DM, rule it as you wish.