Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragos 05-07-04, 01:06 AM	I need some help with some rules for simply running smack into a foe as an attack...this is not charging....I think it would be bludgoning damage....i know the rules of charge...but i really think momentum is a factor that is unaffected by the rules...i know the bonus to attack and strenght...but i think a barbarian running (with run feat) at 160, and simply shoulders into a foe, should do some nice damage but i don't know what do do rule wise. On the same momentum thoughts...i know there is a bonus to jump skill for having the run feat...but again...the barbarian with 160ft in one round....thats 6 seconds people...should make one hell of a longjump House rules, rule adaptations, personal views, anything will do....THIS IS A DM RHA (rule hole alert..meaning rules needed that aren't there!) ALERT!!
Maladaar 05-07-04, 01:21 AM	What you describe sounds like it would be covered by Bull-Rush to me.
Fixxxer 05-07-04, 01:25 AM	Originally posted by Maladaar What you describe sounds like it would be covered by Bull-Rush to me. Agreed.
Dragos 05-07-04, 01:27 AM	i know it sounds a lot like a bullrush, but what i'm talking about is that these rules seem to have a uniform bonus of +2 from charging....so creatures/characters/whatever, can't use differences in speed to their advantages...a character going 80ft in a round and hitting a foe from a bullrush and a charge should do a lot more damage than a character moving only at 60. thats all really...think of football players.....i was thinking some kind of bludgeoning damage, with a certain fraction of that also affecting the attacker... or at least a graded strength bonus that scales with speed
Fixxxer 05-07-04, 01:33 AM	Originally posted by Dragos i know it sounds a lot like a bullrush, but what i'm talking about is that these rules seem to have a uniform bonus so creatures/characters/whatever, can't use differences in speed to their advantages...a character going 80ft in a round and hitting a foe from a bullrush and a charge should do a lot more damage than a character moving only at 60. thats all Ah, I see. Well, if it bothers you, you could always rule that for each 10ft above 30ft that the PC goes, he gets a +1 bonus on his opposed STR check to push an opponent back (you don't damage the opponent in a bull rush).
Maladaar 05-07-04, 01:46 AM	Room A is connected to Room B by a passage way that is 10' high, 120' long and 5' wide. Fighter1 starts running down the hall from Room A towards Room B 1 round prior to Fighter2 running down the hall from Room B to Room A. At what point, will Fighter1 collide with Fighter2 and what will be the result of said collision. :confused: Seriously though, since bull-rush is considered an attack the (N)PC will have a limitation on the amount of distance he/she can cover before the collision takes place.
Dragos 05-07-04, 01:57 AM	Hey fixxxer....first of all its an honor to have you grace my post...i love your stuff :-D second...do you think that that +1 would work well with a charging attack as well to push it slightly above that plus 2 thats normal? cause i see it as simple speed momentum...a character capable of moving 30 ft in a 6 second round vs a caracter that could hit 40 or even more in a round...could generate much more momentum in a short time...regardless of distance... or do you mean movement distance above 30ft...not speed above 30 ft?
Kragg Bonemeal 05-07-04, 12:06 PM	Whoa boy. You've opened a can of worms here. Momentum and speed... football player impacts.... Ok, as an Offensive Lineman that is very very used to Bullrush techniques by Defensive Players, the speed isn't really an issue... to bullrush you need to breakdown, square up, get good footing, and drive the other person back. Mass comes into play here. If I'm driving my 300lbs forward on 26" thighs, a little 230lb Linebacker that I've got a grip on is not going to resist too effectively... but weight is size category in DnD. It sounds like you are going for more of a "knock down" approach. A flying tackle of some kind. Shoulder to the head? There, speed makes a difference. But once again weight comes into play.... but weight is covered better as size category. I've seen my Strong Safety knock the snot out of a reciever (literally) after getting 5 or 6 running steps at them. But this takes talent. I'd go for this... FEAT: Shoulder Charge A charge attack (+2 to hit/-2 to AC) that does non-lethal damage. Must move at least 10' in a straight line. For every 20' above base movement of 30' (e.g. 50', 70', etc) you add +1 to the damage inflicted. You may not perform this action on any creature that is more than 2 size categories larger or smaller than you are... they are too big or too small to line up on properly. If you have either Imp. Trip or Imp. Bull Rush, you may combine this ability with those actions to yield either a prone opponent or an oppent being driven backward.
Dymo 05-07-04, 12:52 PM	and maybe give a bonus that if you Roll 5 higher than the opponents AC he is stunned for 1-2 rounds as a result of the jolt. Ever see a wide receiver go across the middle and the opposing defensive back also sees him go across the middle? :)
I_c_u_all 05-07-04, 04:05 PM	Dragos, I think what you are really looking for is a "Slam" attack. It is an attack feature that is listed in the Monster Manual. I know an Air Elemental has a Slam Attack and Slam Damage as a standard feature. Especially without having any appendages WoTC had to think of something an Air Elemental could do. Plus, it is an existing rule that you can modify a little bit. I hope this helps.
Fixxxer 05-07-04, 08:51 PM	Originally posted by I_c_u_all I know an Air Elemental has a Slam Attack and Slam Damage as a standard feature. Technically, so do about half of the other monsters from the Monster Manual. Basically, as far as the MM is concerned, "slam" is a sort of natural attack that deals bludgeoning damage. do you think that that +1 would work well with a charging attack as well to push it slightly above that plus 2 thats normal I don't see any problem with that. Actually, I could see a sort of mechanical logic in only allowing the extra bonus when you are charging. Do me a favor and lay out exactly what it is that you're looking to clarify, though. I mean, Kragg Bonemeal is talking about making a flying tackle (which would serve more to knock the opponent on his butt, I would think) and Dymo is talking about adding an effect (though I'm unsure if this is supposed to be on top of damage or a simple bull rush or what) while my own idea about this is that you're talking about being able to bull rush someone a little farther than normal due to the momentum of your movement. Could you please clarify?
Dragos 05-07-04, 09:18 PM	What I'm talking about is the natural capability of any creature to use their natural acceleration and simply slam into another being. This in basically a bull-rush off of a charge attack...however, if feel that the rules for these attacks do not bring the natural speed of a character into effect. A simple bonus to strength that stays static regardless of speed i feel is lacking. I was thinking of expanding the rules slightly so the speed of the character can increase either the strength bonus, do subdual damage to the target of the attack, subdual damage to the person bullrushing, bludgeoning damage...i don't know what though.... Its all because i feel that given a round is 6 seconds...and charging doubles that speed, and that with new rules out that allows players to play various monsterous races, which can vary in their base speeds, a character capable of charging at 100ft in a round, and a character charging 60ft in a round (i'm talking about the speed they can generate, not distance) even if they both only move the minimum 10 ft before a charge...the one capable of the 100ft speed has a higher acceleration, and i feel should generate more momentum than the 60ft charger and should have some kind of difference between the two....and i am looking for some rules to do that. does that clarify?
Fixxxer 05-08-04, 01:04 AM	Originally posted by Dragos does that clarify? Quite nicely. :) The easy answer is to grant a bonus to the attack roll during a charge that's based on the creature's speed. Building on my previous example, you could grant (in addition to the +2 for charging, but not the additional +2 for making a bull rush or overrun attempt) a +1 bonus to the attack roll for each incriment of 10ft above 30ft that the PC is capable of moving. The benefit of doing things this way is that it affects normal charge attacks as well as flying tackles (charge + grapple) or charge + bull rush/overrun attacks fairly equally. As an example, Murry the 6th level human monk has a base speed of 50ft (30ft for being human + 20ft for being a 6th level monk), a melee attack bonus of +5 (+4 BAB and +1 STR bonus) as well as an AC of 17 (10 +2 from DEX +4 from WIS +1 from monk AC bonus). Because she has two incriments of 10ft above 30ft, she adds a +2 speed bonus to her attacks during a charge (which stacks with the normal bonus for charging, but superceads [does not stack with] the normal bonus for bull rushing or overrunning during a charge). Now, Murry decides to charge his opponent. Due to the charge itself, he subtracts 2 from his AC (making it 15) and adds 2 to his attack bonus. Now, if he decides to make a flying kick (charge + regular attack), he adds a further +2 speed bonus due to his speed. Technically, he would also add this bonus if he wanted to barrel over his opponent (charge + overrun), but since this bonus does not stack with the +2 bonus already granted to an overrun by charging, it really doesn't matter...however, if Murry had a +3 bonus due to his speed, it would superceade the +2 bonus and would indeed make a difference. How's that?
Dragos 05-08-04, 02:40 AM	That indeed works quite well, and i think it might be just what i'm looking for, once again the gaming world is at ease because Fixxxer is in it!! ALL HAIL FIXXXER!!!
Fixxxer 05-08-04, 02:06 PM	Originally posted by Dragos ALL HAIL FIXXXER!!! <Sally Field> You like me! *sniffle* You really like me! </Sally Field>