Charged Spells and Other Effects...How to Mediate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charged Spells and Other Effects...How to Mediate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HairyApe
10-16-06, 03:24 PM Ok...so it has come to the attention of my group that there is a need for a hierarchy in resolution in some cases of combat. There is a Monk1/Cleric 7 who picked up Pain Touch (??? CW, -6 str...no save, or is that changed?).

Here's the question...If he casts a touch spell, let's say bestow curse, and charges the spell (can't reach on this turn, whatever), and then attacks the next turn (explicitly allowed, the spell discharges with a successful attack), but uses pain touch instead (-6 str), which would resolve first. I know this doesn't necessarily seem like an issue now, but what if it were a spellsword/duskblade/whatever who hits with a Con draining spell and a wounding weapon. Would the spell, or the attack go off first. Would bestow curse, greater set the creatures Str to 1, and then pain touch reduce it to 0, or would pain touch be unnessecary?

I asked wizards help, and they said there is no ruling of any sort, and the DM should decide. I am just wanting some opinions as to which sounds more fair and/or more in line with the rules. If you could give me you insight, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!!
D1Tremere
10-16-06, 03:37 PM As the DM, it's your call. Either the DM decides or the player decides, for the record I think that the default is it's the players choice but I can't find the part that says that right now so I may be incorrect.
I'm pritty sure that using a touch spell is a standard action which may be used with a normal unarmed strike, as is using pain touch. So if I'm recalling this right, even though they both have similar delivery methods, I don't think you can do both on the same strike.
HairyApe
10-16-06, 03:41 PM It says the the spell discharges the next time you touch a creature, even if it is an ally.

To make a touch attack as part of a spell (in the instance of 'Touch' spells) IS a standard action, you are correct, but after going into the "charged" state of said spell, it is mere contact.
D1Tremere
10-16-06, 03:51 PM Holding the charge isn't ment to change the normal rules for delivering a touch spell, only to let a player still use the spell even if they can't reach there target on that turn. It's still a standard action which can be combined with a normal unarmed melee attack, as per the paragraph on touch spells and holding the charge.
I suppose however as the DM that you could allow a very liberal interpritation of those rules.
HairyApe
10-16-06, 05:58 PM Yes, but Pain Touch is used as a stunning fist, which is activated, and applied through an unarmed attack. It is akin to Power Attack in that it doesn't use an action to activate/use, and doesn't modify the attack type. (Adds damage or save vs. stun, but doesn't change from a standard/full round attack to anything else)

Doesn't seem like a liberal interpretation, merely AN interpretation.
Juzzman
10-16-06, 06:56 PM I believe that normally when you are holding a charge, if you attempt to use another skill/feat/ability or do anything other than attempt to deliver the touch, you loose the charge. I an not sure if this is RAW, and i can't cite the specific page, but i'm pretty sure that some touch spells specify this in their descriptions, and it seems like a good precedent to me.

For example things that are constant (like touch of golden ice) would not count as there is no desire to use/activate/initiate it involved, but a stunning fist would cancel the charge as the weilder shifts his focus from holding the charge to chanelling his ki energy into a stunning blow.
Ziggaraut
10-16-06, 08:50 PM If I recall correctly, Bestow curse cannot reduce someones ability scores below zero. Thus, even if Bestow curse occurs on someone with a Strength of 7, which would reduce their scores to 1, then Pain Touch deals 1 point of Strength damage. Their new Strength score is 6, and the permanent magical effect of Bestow curse reduces the targets Strength score by 6, to a minimum of 1. Thus, the target's Strength score is still 1.

Of course, I could be wrong.
HairyApe
10-17-06, 09:16 AM Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

STUNNING FIST [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned character can’t act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.

It doesn't say one way or the other, and wizard's help said it hasn't been covered ever. Oh well.

Also, it would seem that Stunning Fist is used the same as Power Attack, in that it doesn't change anything about an attack. The attack is made, and resolves, the same as if Stunning Fist hadn't been used (No increase in attack type i.e. Standard -> Full-Attack).

I got those definitions from the SRD.

Maybe it would help to clarify my question. Remove the special ability in the attack. Would the spell discharge before or after the damage is resolved when delivering a spell through an unarmed strike.

P.S. I believe the feat I was intending was Weakening Touch (CW) not Pain Touch (CW).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HairyApe 10-16-06, 03:24 PM	Ok...so it has come to the attention of my group that there is a need for a hierarchy in resolution in some cases of combat. There is a Monk1/Cleric 7 who picked up Pain Touch (??? CW, -6 str...no save, or is that changed?). Here's the question...If he casts a touch spell, let's say bestow curse, and charges the spell (can't reach on this turn, whatever), and then attacks the next turn (explicitly allowed, the spell discharges with a successful attack), but uses pain touch instead (-6 str), which would resolve first. I know this doesn't necessarily seem like an issue now, but what if it were a spellsword/duskblade/whatever who hits with a Con draining spell and a wounding weapon. Would the spell, or the attack go off first. Would bestow curse, greater set the creatures Str to 1, and then pain touch reduce it to 0, or would pain touch be unnessecary? I asked wizards help, and they said there is no ruling of any sort, and the DM should decide. I am just wanting some opinions as to which sounds more fair and/or more in line with the rules. If you could give me you insight, it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!!
D1Tremere 10-16-06, 03:37 PM	As the DM, it's your call. Either the DM decides or the player decides, for the record I think that the default is it's the players choice but I can't find the part that says that right now so I may be incorrect. I'm pritty sure that using a touch spell is a standard action which may be used with a normal unarmed strike, as is using pain touch. So if I'm recalling this right, even though they both have similar delivery methods, I don't think you can do both on the same strike.
HairyApe 10-16-06, 03:41 PM	It says the the spell discharges the next time you touch a creature, even if it is an ally. To make a touch attack as part of a spell (in the instance of 'Touch' spells) IS a standard action, you are correct, but after going into the "charged" state of said spell, it is mere contact.
D1Tremere 10-16-06, 03:51 PM	Holding the charge isn't ment to change the normal rules for delivering a touch spell, only to let a player still use the spell even if they can't reach there target on that turn. It's still a standard action which can be combined with a normal unarmed melee attack, as per the paragraph on touch spells and holding the charge. I suppose however as the DM that you could allow a very liberal interpritation of those rules.
HairyApe 10-16-06, 05:58 PM	Yes, but Pain Touch is used as a stunning fist, which is activated, and applied through an unarmed attack. It is akin to Power Attack in that it doesn't use an action to activate/use, and doesn't modify the attack type. (Adds damage or save vs. stun, but doesn't change from a standard/full round attack to anything else) Doesn't seem like a liberal interpretation, merely AN interpretation.
Juzzman 10-16-06, 06:56 PM	I believe that normally when you are holding a charge, if you attempt to use another skill/feat/ability or do anything other than attempt to deliver the touch, you loose the charge. I an not sure if this is RAW, and i can't cite the specific page, but i'm pretty sure that some touch spells specify this in their descriptions, and it seems like a good precedent to me. For example things that are constant (like touch of golden ice) would not count as there is no desire to use/activate/initiate it involved, but a stunning fist would cancel the charge as the weilder shifts his focus from holding the charge to chanelling his ki energy into a stunning blow.
Ziggaraut 10-16-06, 08:50 PM	If I recall correctly, Bestow curse cannot reduce someones ability scores below zero. Thus, even if Bestow curse occurs on someone with a Strength of 7, which would reduce their scores to 1, then Pain Touch deals 1 point of Strength damage. Their new Strength score is 6, and the permanent magical effect of Bestow curse reduces the targets Strength score by 6, to a minimum of 1. Thus, the target's Strength score is still 1. Of course, I could be wrong.
HairyApe 10-17-06, 09:16 AM	Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell. STUNNING FIST [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8. Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned character can’t act, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned. Special: A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk. It doesn't say one way or the other, and wizard's help said it hasn't been covered ever. Oh well. Also, it would seem that Stunning Fist is used the same as Power Attack, in that it doesn't change anything about an attack. The attack is made, and resolves, the same as if Stunning Fist hadn't been used (No increase in attack type i.e. Standard -> Full-Attack). I got those definitions from the SRD. Maybe it would help to clarify my question. Remove the special ability in the attack. Would the spell discharge before or after the damage is resolved when delivering a spell through an unarmed strike. P.S. I believe the feat I was intending was Weakening Touch (CW) not Pain Touch (CW).