Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dalin 03-15-05, 04:58 PM	In my campaign the PC's were walking through a large forest when they come across two of their enemy warbands. The idea was that they would either run away, or stay and watch and find out some intresting plot info etc. Instead however they charged into combat, they were up against impossible odds and i ended up having to fudge a lot of dice rolls and bring in an allied party of rangers to help the PC's out. I realise that in most cases PC's won't do what you are 'intending' them to do and as a result most cases are pre-planned. However a similer event has happened quite a few times now and I'm not entirely sure what to do. The party are beginning to realise I am reluctant to kill them all off. Currently the party is half way through a very long plotline and so killing all the characters off isn't really an option. So far now i've just avoided putting the PC's in a case like this, has anyone else had any cases like this?
scott644 03-15-05, 05:01 PM	Capture them, have them defeated and their gear plundered, or even allow one of them (whichever behaved most stupidly in the encounter and thus took the worst hits) killed. There are a lot of ways to teach respect for serious encounters aside from the TPK.
Dalin 03-15-05, 05:07 PM	I've thought about that one, but they are facing a huge undead army mainly, who would have no real reason to capture them
UltimateReality 03-15-05, 05:10 PM	The idea was that they would either run away, or stay and watch and find out some intresting plot info etc. Instead however they charged into combat, they were up against impossible odds and i ended up having to fudge a lot of dice rolls and bring in an allied party of rangers to help the PC's out.Sounds like our party, only the DM would've let us die (and probably would've put in an alternate way to find the plot info that was less dangerous, but perhaps more difficult to find). I realise that in most cases PC's won't do what you are 'intending' them to do and as a result most cases are pre-planned. However a similer event has happened quite a few times now and I'm not entirely sure what to do.About all you can do is keep trying to plan for eventualities. My DM (of over 2 years, mind you) remarked yesterday that we had solved his entire first adventure in one night. See, there were these vampires who were traders, and not doing evil or un-lawful stuff. However, the druids weren't fond of their trading through their territory, and the Order of Illumination wasn't fond of the fact that they were undead. After a single run-in with each group, we did something the DM didn't expect: suggest the vampires relocate to a safer spot. The druids have no caravans to attack, the paladins have no undead to hunt, and, well, the vampires are safe -- which is what we were hired to do, after all. I'm sure the DM still have some surprises in store, but the idea of us suggesting they go somewhere more friendly was something he failed to consider. The party are beginning to realise I am reluctant to kill them all off. Currently the party is half way through a very long plotline and so killing all the characters off isn't really an option. So far now i've just avoided putting the PC's in a case like this, has anyone else had any cases like this?Nooo no no. You must strike fear into your PCs' hearts. If they realize you're not afraid to kill them, they'll start doing insanely stupid crap, figuring "hey, Dalin won't kill us!" Then you'll have to TPK them viciously to gain any sort of respect back. (I'm only half joking here, actually.) For me as a player, it takes a lot of the fun away from the game if the DM won't let me die. That's like playing on cheat mode...okay, yeah, I win, I kick everything's butt, but there's no risk to it. The risk is what makes it exciting. I don't feel so accomplished when I find out that I still would've made it to epic level if I'd been playing a Commoner. I know what a pain in the behind it is when the PCs go and die on you, but is it at all possible to simply rework the plotline? What campaign setting, if any, are you using, and can I get some details on the plot if possible? You can probably find a way to integrate their deaths into the storyline, maybe have them make successors who are either assigned the same task (and given what info the other PCs discovered), or put them in a different part of the plot/on a different side of the story, so to speak. You could simply say they fail their mission and the BBEGs' plan comes to pass, and then the new PCs must deal with the aftermath. There are lots of ideas -- I could be more helpful with more concrete information, though. ;)
illiterate 03-15-05, 05:13 PM	Would killing one or two pcs wreck your plotline? While they're in captivity, give them a little guard abuse. If one mouths off in character, have the guards beat him to death. The distraction from this could even give them an oppotunity to escape, and come back with a score to settle. Ah, this is why ce races make poor prison guards.
mostlysane 03-15-05, 05:25 PM	Peculiar entity's player group's are. Upon encountering overwhelming odds, the majority will rule for suicide, almost always it seems. I think because it really doesn't cause any physical pain no matter what the outcome is. It's a shame that we can't send little shocks by PM's or Emails, maybe 16 volts or so. A good rule of thumb is to match the total hit die for creatures and player characters. If your party has a total of 20 hit dice among them, so too should the encounter they face. Never expect a reasonable action where so many different opinions can and will change the outcome of things.
nghtsngr 03-15-05, 05:31 PM	On Topic --- In that case beat them into unconciousness, but have the "good" side find them once they win the day. Though if there was a particular character who started the assault, maybe they didn't quite get rescued in time. Off Topic -- (You've been warned) Ah, the old problem with PCs being the center of the plot. We'll call this Character centered for the time being. A Character Centered focuses on the background or contacts of a particular character or group of characters. Finding the people who killed your village off, or resuing a kidnapped retainer. These quests only really have meaning if the character(s) involved survive. This can lead to all sorts of DM gymnastics to keep the adventure going, even though that critical character just jumped off a ledge. However the quests have a more personal feel, and can lead to a tighter party and happy players. A potential solution is to focus the quests around either the party as a whole, or an external source. We'll call this Object Centered (even though the object may be a being.). This sort of quest has less to do with who's acomplishing the quest as to why. The party is commisioned to deliver an object-de-arte: doesn't really matter who's in the party when the mission is complete. The problem is these quests feel like cheesy video-game quests. No real attachment to the characters, and the story seems unrelated. The solution I use, is to combine the two. The overall plot is Object Centered. Save the King, Rescue the Country etc etc. Character Centered side quests keep the party together tightly, and people happy. If a player dies and is not raised, the main plotline doesn't suffer.
Dalin 03-15-05, 05:49 PM	The plots pretty simple, though i'm slightly reluctant to say too much as I know 4/6 of my players visit the forums often, but here goes. It's set in the forgotten realms, and based in the city of Athkatla. Put simply a lich has managed to summon forth a huge undead army and sends it charging to athkatla, due to the PC's managing to find a rather powerfull anti-undead scrolls most of the army is destroyed, seeing this the lich and his personal escort (vampires and necromancers ect.) charge through to the docks, hijack a ship and sail to a semi-distant island. The PC's are asked by the captain of the guard to follow them to get infomation on any plans that the lich might have. The party run round the island for a bit and then are escorted back to Athkatla after about a month by a large group of rangers and monks that formed a group dedicated to stopping the lich many hundreds of years ago. (At this point if you are in my campaign please stop reading) The group have just got back to Athkatla when they are arrested for high treason (currently they don't know why) and thats when the session ended. The rogue/assassin of the group managed to escape but is now performing an urgent task for the Shadow Thieves guild, and so will be a little to busy to help in any escape attempt. The PC's can't escape yet as they have been promised a 'fair' trial. Where they find out that both they and the friendly captain of the guard are accused of poising a few of the council of 12 members. (in fact they helped solve the case a couple of weeks before the origanal undead invasion of Athkatla) I do have 1 PC that won't be needed for the plot. After their trial they will spend 1 day in the cells and then shortly before getting hung the friendly (but now outlawed) captain of the guard and a few of his assistants will break them out of jail. The idea is that now they need to prove they are not guilty and then peuswade the city of the upcomming undead attack.
Sildatorak 03-15-05, 06:00 PM	The party are beginning to realise I am reluctant to kill them all off. That may be why they charged into a seemingly impossible combat. They assumed that either you would bail them out or that it wasn't as impossible as it seemed since you wouldn't put them in a situation where they can get themselves killed. I have a player whose character has nearly gotten them into trouble a couple of times when dealing with intelligent monsters. I had placed monsters that were valuable for the social aspect of the encounter and would be much harder (but still possible) to defeat in combat. As long as you don't have a TPK your game can go on. I find it is handy to have the party earn themselves favors from clergymen that they may ultimately redeem as a raise dead. In another campaign, I gave the party a ring of 2 limited wishes well before it was appropriate for their level because I knew that they would save them to bring people back from the dead. These are a few ways to let your players know that death is not necessarily the end, but it is definitely a set back.
krichaiushii 03-15-05, 06:09 PM	Perhaps you don't kill them, then, but do provide crippling effects. Permanent level and/or stat drains, for example. Destroyed gear or bad things happening to the world when they fail a quest. Plots go on, and PCs are punished for blatant stupidity.
shaga 03-15-05, 06:17 PM	I had a huge problem when I started as a dm because my pcs always chose to fight than talk or listen. I finally solved my problem with a simple rule “NEVER put the pcs against a challenge they can not defeat thru seer power.” also I maid them clear that if the do happen to find a more creative solution to the challenge they will get double xp…… you can’t imagine what pcs will do for double xp. You will also note that, this is similar to all written adventures
Dalin 03-15-05, 06:27 PM	But what do you count as a challenge, does this mean you can't get a lvl 13 mage to give them a quest in case they try to attack him?
Phrennzy 03-15-05, 07:46 PM	My gut reaction is to not fudge. Kill them if they act stupid. Belive me , once you kill that first guy, the others will run. Now, I'm not advocating sending a strike force to kill them in their sleep. I'm saying that if they charge into another suicidal area, kill one. Or two. If you are using undead, have the dead one rise up 1d4 rounds later as a spawn of the undead that killed him. If I were playing in your game, I wouldn't worry about fighting ridiculous odds, because I know that A) the monsters will start missing a LOT, and B) The calvary is coming soon. And that is boring. Dont fudge. I roll my attacks out in front of everyone, so they can see their fate. (i'll hide damage dice sometimes - not to change the result, but so they never know just how much the monster can do). If they die, they die.
Fixxxer 03-15-05, 10:11 PM	I've thought about that one, but they are facing a huge undead army mainly, who would have no real reason to capture them Of course they have a reason...bolstering the ranks! To an undead army, captured opponents are more than just prisoners...they're potential allies. Once they've been tortured into giving away all of their secrets, they're fed to the ghouls so they rise up again as new soldiers. By your own admission, you're reluctant to kill off the PCs. What's worse is that the players know this. The only way you're going to hash this issue out is to kill someone. Now I'm not suggesting you go out of your way to do this. I'm just saying that the next time they do something stupid, find a way to prove to them that you're not going to bend the laws of physics to deal with their incorrect assumption of immortality. For instance, how I might have handled the above situation is that the PCs would have fought bravely until subdued (in the negatives). Afterwards, the sergants in the undead army would have tried to keep them alive (Heal check to stabilize...and since the PCs are all unconcious and you don't actually have to describe what's going on to the players, this check automatically succeeds). When the PCs wake up, they're safely tucked away in wooden (or bone...yucky!) cage, hog tied and surrounded by undead soldiers. An officer shows up and begins to question them directly, obviously looking for any information they might know that could be of use to the army. Naturally, the PCs are going to refuse to give up such information. This is when you (the DM) make a secret roll. The result of this roll is not important, all that's important is that the players see you make it. Then you have the officer sned in a couple of ghouls to begin chowing on the PC that acted the stupidest during this situation (this is what the roll was for...the players will assume the result indicated which of them bought the farm). When the PC finally dies, the officer cuts the ropes that bind him and waits for him to rise as a ghoul. He stations the former PC as a guard outside the cage and says something to the effect of "I'll give you a few minutes to discuss your options with your friend" and walks away laughing. The PCs have a few horrifying minutes to realize the gravity of their situation before you bring out the deus ex machina and have your group of rangers come rescue them. Now, not only have you shown the players that you're willing to kill them if the situation warrants it, but you've also accomplished a couple of other things as well. For one thing, you've given them the possible quest of re-killing their former comrade, either for the purpose of having him raised or just so he isn't forever trapped as one of the undead. Additionally, you've installed a hatred of this undead officer in the eyes of both the PCs and the players. He can become a reoccuring NPC opponent in your game and your game will seem all that much sweeter when (if) they finally get to kill him. In short...off someone.
illiterate 03-15-05, 10:19 PM	fixxxer -- HEAR, HEAR!! I asked my fiance about this earlier tonight. She said "Well. if they're that stupid, let them die, or at least get captured so the campaign has a chance to continue". I love that woman.
Rock_Slice 03-15-05, 10:33 PM	I agree with the general sentiment: If they do something stupid, they need to pay. If you bail them out, they will keep on doing stupid things. Two sessions ago, one of the players had his character die because he'd been playing a rogue, and was fighting at the front line. He was raised afterwards, but I've already seen him be a bit more careful about trying to be the "meatshield". I suggest hurting them, maybe letting one or two die. After all, if even one survives, or they get found by some good samaritans, they can be raised. You'll be amazed how much affect the cost of a Raise Dead spell (in gp and XP) has.
weasel fierce 03-16-05, 12:50 AM	To be honest, if my players insist on charging into an overwhelming enemy, I let them be mauled. Otherwise they'll never learn. Apologies that this isnt the answer you are looking for, but its what I would do.
UltimateReality 03-16-05, 01:26 AM	if even one survives, or they get found by some good samaritans, they can be raised. You'll be amazed how much effect the cost of a Raise Dead spell (in gp and XP) has.Or in terms of favours owed to NPCs.... Actually, if the party is of sufficient level, it could be plausible that even if they all die in a TPK, a cleric of comparable level (17+) may decide to True Res them, for whatever reason. What that reason -- and who the cleric -- may be, I leave up to the DM, but it is an option if you really gotta keep those same characters. It smacks of Deus Ex Machina though, and I don't like it. I consider it a last resort. Character death becomes a lot easier to accomodate when the plotline is external to the characters. This isn't to say they shouldn't have backgrounds that tie into the plot, merely that the plot should not revolve around their backstories. In your case, I think new set of PCs could easily be brought in: they're a different team (maybe sent from a different agency or individual) sent to do the same mission as the first party, or they're sent to find out what happened to the first party. If you're only going to kill off a few at a time, well, lots of people have reason to hate undead. Some may be working exclusively towards that end, other PCs may just have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and now the army's on their doorstep. As long as one of them survives to carry on the mission (convince the city of the impending invasion), your campaign lives on. Have the remaining PCs go around drumming up rebellion, looking for pockets of resistance -- other people who think as they do. Oh, I have one more quick question: if they solved the poisoning cases, how are they now being framed for them?
HomebrewedMonster 03-16-05, 03:15 AM	Kill party, have a band of heroes bring their bodies back to where they came from. A temple in town raises them, but removes 5,000gp worth of gold/items (to pay for the spell) from each of them. Now a level lower they learned their lesson. With their pouting faces and disgrunted mood, have the captain come and ask them what happened?
PaladinSix 03-16-05, 03:47 AM	Originally posted by illiterate: While they're in captivity, give them a little guard abuse. If one mouths off in character, have the guards beat him to death. Originally posted by Fixxxer: Then you have the officer send in a couple of ghouls to begin chowing on the PC that acted the stupidest during this situation (this is what the roll was for...the players will assume the result indicated which of them bought the farm). These are both excellent ideas. I personally prefer Fixxxer's, because its more gory, but either works. The point is, you get your point across by killing someone, but you don't have to end up with a TPK. I wouldn't bother killing someone in combat. If it happens, fine, let it. But its not going to make the point nearly as effectively as offing one of them AFTER they're captured. Think about it, the battle is done, they've lost, and they're looking to you for the miraculous solution that they know is coming, and you say, "With a brutal laugh and a casual swing of his mace, the guard caves in Romerac's skull, spraying the rest of you with gore and bits of brain." When the stunned silence is over, hand the player some six-sided dice and move on. They'll get the message that playtime is definately over.
olostar 03-16-05, 08:41 AM	This dilemma is one I have scarcely had occasion to deal with since establishing some firm parameters long ago. As a DM I believe it is my duty to put before the characters scenarios wherein they may identify the battles they are meant to fight and clearly comprehend those others that may be avoided, fled from or aren't necessary to fight. I am always glad when my party plays their characters with mortality, such as; DM: "Off on the distant hill you notice a large dark elm, forbiding against the horizon standing alone on the hillock - strange growths sprout from the bottom of it's branches". Party: "We mark it's presence but steer clear - it's not obstructing our path and nothing we've been told about the pursuit of the gnome priestess indicated a connection with a large ominous tree of any sort". Now this is a case where the party may opt out of an encounter without deviating their course of action - in the situation you describe they must certainly flee, and they need to 'mortalize' their characters and understand that not every battle is a group of xps waiting to be reaped. The reality of a dynamic world is made more substantial when the PC's pass animals in the woods they don't slaughter (when they are not in dire need of sustenance either) foes that they flee from (a pursuit encounter can be as fun either way) town guards they need to elude to undertake a nightly mission (where the party certainly doesn't want to go down the road of murdering the watch in every port) or knowing that the dragon is turning in the skies a mile distant and they have 2 rounds to run 4X towards one of 3 defiles in the rock. I've always felt that it is the underlying role of a DM to instill in the characters the credibility of encountering constant death without the DM directly seeking it and this applies to those encounters where they know they should fight or flee or avoid. If I have done my job and clearly painted a scenario as overwhelming or one they shouldn't or needn't fight and they still insist on pursuing it then I am no longer culpable for what might transpire. If they truly seek death they will find it, I cannot protect them from themselves bearing in mind again that it is my duty to provide a less than subtle indication of the overwhelming aspects of the situation. Perhaps where there is any ambiguity whatsoever I have the wisest in the group make a wisdom check and provide them with an even more succinct indication. This is an out for you as DM that predicates having to let the party dash their heads against a stone - you wouldn't let the dwarf in your party with a 9 intelligence know about the Keppler constant simply because his player is a astronomer - you would force a knowledge check which they will certainly fail, inversely you wouldn't let the mage or cleric in the party with 17 wisdom or intelligence rush headlong into a suicidal encounter without a similar check against their ability (WIS/INT) or knowledge which would determine non-meta game-wise what their character would do - the PC doesn't know that those ogres have X amount of XPS - all he knows is he has one life to give and this situation will certainly demand it if he rashly continues.
Cantankerous 03-16-05, 09:09 AM	I tend to have little pity for my PC's. If they do something damned silly, then they have to live with the consequnces, irregardless of where in the campaign we are. In the old days I had a party get too bloody cocky really late in a campaign and because of sheer stupidity they were all wiped out but for one in a six player party with nine PC's and fifteen major henchmen (Cohorts today) literally on the way to the penultimate encounter of the campaign. Later they admitted to metagame thinking, believing that I wouldn't let them get wiped out on the way to the BBEG. That group never made that mistake again. Sometimes you just have to let fire teach the child that they can get burned. The single survivor re-built a coalition of new allies (fewer, just one per player this time and only one player had a henchman, a much less powerful one than had been the run of the henchmen in the previous party) to go after the BBEG and the party that did so was ultimately defeated by him, with just the originial PC again escaping, where they knew that the group previously would have probably run over him like a dump truck with a popped brake line. The world turned... the next cycle came and the new PC'sbuilt their strength, the player who had retained his PC through it all retired him UNTIL it was time for the now fully integrated and prepared party to try again, then he rejoined that PC to the new party, with the full warnings of the elderly Illusionist to keep them centered. It was a great end of the campaign, made all the more meaninglful because the players felt that they had earned every bit of it, that nothing was given to them and no breaks were cut them... and they were right. That campaign is a favorite topic of conversation when we all get back together... it is everyones (mine included) favorite all time... again, because they knew they had earned that win. Isshia
Dalin 03-16-05, 12:38 PM	Thanks for all the advice they may identify the battles they are meant to fight and clearly comprehend those others that may be avoided, fled from or aren't necessary to fight. The last battle they charged into when they didn't have to was when they saw 100 wights (my custom wights with heavy armour and great sword) and 4 necromancers when they were lvl 5. previously they have been hard pressed to kill a party of more than 5 of these wights Currently between this session and the next the evil elven fighter is boasting how he is going to kill 7 armoured guards without any of his weapons or armour. He'll wake up from being knocked out on a surgeon's table finding that his left arm had to be amplitated. (his favoured weapon is a great sword)
Fixxxer 03-16-05, 04:50 PM	Currently between this session and the next the evil elven fighter is boasting how he is going to kill 7 armoured guards without any of his weapons or armour. He'll wake up from being knocked out on a surgeon's table finding that his left arm had to be amplitated. (his favoured weapon is a great sword) I like this. This is good. Just remember to stick to your guns. If the player gets angry, don't back down and don't start yelling. Just calmly inform him that what happened to his PC was his PC's own fault and that in a world of gods and magic, there are plenty of options to help compensate for his loss.
Kalithor 03-16-05, 05:42 PM	I've thought about that one, but they are facing a huge undead army mainly, who would have no real reason to capture them This prolly is much more severe than what you're looking for, but in this case, here's what I would do. In my group, there are three players, and I often play a fighter along with them so they have more character options. I would start with rolling a d4 to pick a target. Basically, whoever that d4 chooses, sorry bout their bad luck. Now, go through with the combat, but don't let any help come this time. Fudge all your rolls as you see fit, EXCEPT on the guy you picked at the beginning with that d4. As the combat boils down, everybody is a little wounded, but d4 guy will be falling. Have them see this. They continue the fight, wanting to save their buddy for later resurrection or whatever. A couple rounds later, have their buddy be one of the undead (now risen) attacking them. Then you've only killed one off, and the rest learn a horrific lesson. Like I said, its harsh, but it would be my favorite option in this case. If you let them set up the idea that you're reluctant to kill them, then whenever you do, the whining will be that much more intense. Better to make it clear now that adventurers have to be cautious of the dangers they stand up to.
shaga 03-16-05, 06:19 PM	DM: you see a huge warband ahead of you! PLAYER: Hums to himself “if the dm designed for our campaign then it must be within our power to fight it, there must be a way… maybe if we play really smart and with good strategy.. xmm maybe” Most players hate to be captured with out good reason and the reason “I didn’t thought you will go on and fight them” is a very bad reason for most players, believe me I talk from personal experience. The only reason you can capture a player and not make him hate you is if it was his fault, like for instance if the groups wizard tries to go in charging and fighting with swords or the barbarian lives his sword and tries to beat them with his hands ( has happened to me)
Dalin 03-16-05, 06:48 PM	Going back to the being captured by undead thing, the undead that i've gone for work differently to those in the book and in more normal campaigns, so they wouldn't have any need to capture the PC's. One thing I am also thinking about is getting the head guard of the prison to force said evil fighter to bow before him and appologise for attempting to escape. Failing to do this results in the fighter having her face kicked in, and then having another chance to bow before him, after this happends a few times the fighter gets the beating of her life and looses a point of Int. Does this seem fair, or am I going ott and should save such thing for another occasion?
Fixxxer 03-16-05, 09:00 PM	The only reason you can capture a player and not make him hate you is if it was his fault, like for instance if the groups wizard tries to go in charging and fighting with swords or the barbarian lives his sword and tries to beat them with his hands ( has happened to me) I fail to see the difference between these examples and Dalin's situation. When you are a group of four guys and you charge into an army of enemies you've met before and had trouble killing, you're a stupid, stupid group of people. Rambo is an ultimate badass, but he would never have willingly charged into an army of well-armed opponents.
UltimateReality 03-16-05, 10:40 PM	One thing I am also thinking about is getting the head guard of the prison to force said evil fighter to bow before him and appologise for attempting to escape. Failing to do this results in the fighter having her face kicked in, and then having another chance to bow before him, after this happends a few times the fighter gets the beating of her life and looses a point of Int. Does this seem fair, or am I going ott and should save such thing for another occasion?I wouldn't have her lose a point of Int. If anything, Con would seem more appropriate. I really wouldn't drain any stat permanently without use of a poison or creature with a special ability that does so, though. As she's in a prison, the medical staff can take their time (not) healing her in any way they (don't) like, and depending on their alignments that could be punishment enough. (Sidenote: Ooh, I just noticed a nice disease for those who handle undead: Melting Fury, p. 30 and 31, Book of Vile Darkness.)
Mirikon 03-17-05, 12:57 AM	In my campaign the PC's were walking through a large forest when they come across two of their enemy warbands. The idea was that they would either run away, or stay and watch and find out some intresting plot info etc. Instead however they charged into combat, they were up against impossible odds and i ended up having to fudge a lot of dice rolls and bring in an allied party of rangers to help the PC's out. I realise that in most cases PC's won't do what you are 'intending' them to do and as a result most cases are pre-planned. However a similer event has happened quite a few times now and I'm not entirely sure what to do. The party are beginning to realise I am reluctant to kill them all off. Currently the party is half way through a very long plotline and so killing all the characters off isn't really an option. So far now i've just avoided putting the PC's in a case like this, has anyone else had any cases like this? The party deserved to die. Plain and simple. But, since you decided to not kill them, I'd say you capture them, and have the necromancer in charge of the undeat they're fighting do the evil villian thing for a bit, before turning them into undead one by one as the others watch. Perhaps give them a day between transformations to stew.