Charging, moving, AoO... (Clarification needed) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charging, moving, AoO... (Clarification needed) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kalidor
05-29-05, 04:38 PM The book states that the Charge action doesn't provoke an AoO.

The book also states in a subtext that while an action itself may not provoke, the movement may if you move out of a threatened square.

I've searched for this through the FaQ, the SRD, the handbook and the errata and I couldn't find a single confirmation for my question.

If a character charges a creature, and that creature has a reach of 10', does that provoke an AoO due to the movement through that square?

What if he's moving through other threat ranges of creatures to get to the target creature? Do they all get an AoO?

And most importantly -- is the charge action defined as the attack action used or is the movement in a straight line itself considered the 'charge' and thus, according to the rules does not provoke an AoO?
Colmarr
05-29-05, 05:55 PM If a character charges a creature, and that creature has a reach of 10', does that provoke an AoO due to the movement through that square?

Yes

What if he's moving through other threat ranges of creatures to get to the target creature? Do they all get an AoO?

Yes

And most importantly -- is the charge action defined as the attack action used or is the movement in a straight line itself considered the 'charge' and thus, according to the rules does not provoke an AoO?

A Charge is a full-round action that involves a double move with (normally) a single attack at the end. It is both the movement and the attack. A Charge action does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but nor does it protect you from AoOs your movement might provoke.
Tek
05-29-05, 06:16 PM Colmarr pretty much answered the questions. Next time, I believe there is a sub forum where these rule questions should be going.
Fixxxer
05-29-05, 06:21 PM Colmarr did a wonderful job of answering the questions.

As a bit of an addendum, I think it's fairly safe to say that if you run with the assumption that the line "the Charge action doesn't provoke an AoO" means that unlike grappling, tripping and the like, you don't provoke an AoO just for trying to make a charge, then the PHB wording makes a little more sense.
Kalidor
05-30-05, 12:09 AM Well, I'd taken it as that. But on the other hand saying it doesn't provoke an AoO seems redundant if the actions allows you to make a melee attack, which doesn't anyway.
Colmarr
05-30-05, 02:55 AM I just took another look at the SRD, and didn't see any reference to AoO in the Charge text at all. I assume therefore it is the entry on the chart that is concerning you.

If so, bear in mind that every action has an entry there, and every entry has to say either yes or no. In this case it says no because charging in it's most simple form it doesn't provoke an AoO.

[Aside: I was just looking through the SRD and noticed that the table in the Combat section says Overrun doesn't provoke an AoO. Weird.]
Kalidor
05-30-05, 03:58 AM See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be.

Overrun doesn't provoke -- and I mean, take Spring Attack. It lets you move, then attack, then move -- and movement in that manner doesn't provoke either (From the target).

So if you ask me, I still say logically, it could still go either way and is still not clear.

You could say that the movement would provoke because you're letting your guard down so attack with more force, but that is covered by the -2 to AC for that round.

Certainly, as DM one can rule any way they see fit. But I would like to know what the designers intended to be the case.
Mike W
05-30-05, 04:30 AM See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be.

Overrun doesn't provoke -- and I mean, take Spring Attack. It lets you move, then attack, then move -- and movement in that manner doesn't provoke either (From the target).
Actually, the overrun situation really is as clear as people make it out to be. :) From the SRD:
"Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender."

The Overrun doesn't provoke an attack of oppertunity, moving into the defender's square provokes the attack of oppertunity.

Now, lets have a look at the first bit of your original post:

The book states that the Charge action doesn't provoke an AoO.

The book also states in a subtext that while an action itself may not provoke, the movement may if you move out of a threatened square.

Charging doesn't provoke attacks of oppertunity. Moving out of a threatened square provokes attacks of oppertunity.

So if you charge a creature, and that creature has a normal 5' reach, and no enemies threaten any of the squares through which you move, then you do not provoke an attack of oppertunity. If you charge a creature that has reach, or if you charge through enemy squares, then the movement provokes an attack of oppertunity, and not the fact that it is a charge.

And finally:
And most importantly -- is the charge action defined as the attack action used or is the movement in a straight line itself considered the 'charge' and thus, according to the rules does not provoke an AoO?

From the SRD:
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move."

The idea is that the movement which is part of the charge can provoke an attack of oppertunity, but the simple act of charging does not, by itself, provoke an attack of oppertunity.
FriendoftheDork
05-30-05, 08:09 AM Spring attack lets you move and attack opponents with reach without provoking AoO from them I think. This has been open to debate, but that's how we've interpreted it. I don't know if there has been any FAQ on it.
Nom
05-30-05, 08:31 AM "See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be." And if you shut your eyes, it's not clear at all.

My partial comment on charge can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=438127), on the "combat" board (rather than the DM-craft board). The only thing I'd add is that a "vanilla" charge doesn't provoke - the only threatened square you enter is the square at the end of your charge, and entering a threatened square doesn't provoke. Once we start talking reach weapons or moving through 3rd party threatened areas, charge provokes as normal.

Table 8-2 is generally pretty robust. Never forget note 1: "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square you usually provoke an AoO. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an AoO." In other words, any movement taken as part of the action is not included in the AoO column of table 8-2, and typically provokes. The exceptions are all explicitly stated under their relevant rules.

The odd entry is actually "Move". It is legal (but rather bizarre) to declare a move action and then not actually move, in which case you don't provoke an AoO. Similarly, finishing movement in a threaten square does not provoke. Technically, the "move" entry should be AoO: no (since AoOs during a move action are provoked only through the normal "leaving a threatened square") rules, but that would cause no end of confusion, so "yes" was probably the correct thing to put there.

Similarly, the overrun entry is correct, though it probably would have been better to say "Yes", since you can't overrun without entering an opponent's square (and thus provoke an AoO).
Kalidor
05-30-05, 09:31 AM "See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be." And if you shut your eyes, it's not clear at all.

There's really no need to be condescending.
Mike W
05-30-05, 03:27 PM Spring attack lets you move and attack opponents with reach without provoking AoO from them I think. This has been open to debate, but that's how we've interpreted it. I don't know if there has been any FAQ on it.

You are correct in your interpretation. See below:

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. (emphasis mine)

The lack of exceptions for creatures with reach or reach wepons leads me to agree with you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kalidor 05-29-05, 04:38 PM	The book states that the Charge action doesn't provoke an AoO. The book also states in a subtext that while an action itself may not provoke, the movement may if you move out of a threatened square. I've searched for this through the FaQ, the SRD, the handbook and the errata and I couldn't find a single confirmation for my question. If a character charges a creature, and that creature has a reach of 10', does that provoke an AoO due to the movement through that square? What if he's moving through other threat ranges of creatures to get to the target creature? Do they all get an AoO? And most importantly -- is the charge action defined as the attack action used or is the movement in a straight line itself considered the 'charge' and thus, according to the rules does not provoke an AoO?
Colmarr 05-29-05, 05:55 PM	If a character charges a creature, and that creature has a reach of 10', does that provoke an AoO due to the movement through that square? Yes What if he's moving through other threat ranges of creatures to get to the target creature? Do they all get an AoO? Yes And most importantly -- is the charge action defined as the attack action used or is the movement in a straight line itself considered the 'charge' and thus, according to the rules does not provoke an AoO? A Charge is a full-round action that involves a double move with (normally) a single attack at the end. It is both the movement and the attack. A Charge action does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but nor does it protect you from AoOs your movement might provoke.
Tek 05-29-05, 06:16 PM	Colmarr pretty much answered the questions. Next time, I believe there is a sub forum where these rule questions should be going.
Fixxxer 05-29-05, 06:21 PM	Colmarr did a wonderful job of answering the questions. As a bit of an addendum, I think it's fairly safe to say that if you run with the assumption that the line "the Charge action doesn't provoke an AoO" means that unlike grappling, tripping and the like, you don't provoke an AoO just for trying to make a charge, then the PHB wording makes a little more sense.
Kalidor 05-30-05, 12:09 AM	Well, I'd taken it as that. But on the other hand saying it doesn't provoke an AoO seems redundant if the actions allows you to make a melee attack, which doesn't anyway.
Colmarr 05-30-05, 02:55 AM	I just took another look at the SRD, and didn't see any reference to AoO in the Charge text at all. I assume therefore it is the entry on the chart that is concerning you. If so, bear in mind that every action has an entry there, and every entry has to say either yes or no. In this case it says no because charging in it's most simple form it doesn't provoke an AoO. [Aside: I was just looking through the SRD and noticed that the table in the Combat section says Overrun doesn't provoke an AoO. Weird.]
Kalidor 05-30-05, 03:58 AM	See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be. Overrun doesn't provoke -- and I mean, take Spring Attack. It lets you move, then attack, then move -- and movement in that manner doesn't provoke either (From the target). So if you ask me, I still say logically, it could still go either way and is still not clear. You could say that the movement would provoke because you're letting your guard down so attack with more force, but that is covered by the -2 to AC for that round. Certainly, as DM one can rule any way they see fit. But I would like to know what the designers intended to be the case.
Mike W 05-30-05, 04:30 AM	See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be. Overrun doesn't provoke -- and I mean, take Spring Attack. It lets you move, then attack, then move -- and movement in that manner doesn't provoke either (From the target). Actually, the overrun situation really is as clear as people make it out to be. :) From the SRD: "Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender." The Overrun doesn't provoke an attack of oppertunity, moving into the defender's square provokes the attack of oppertunity. Now, lets have a look at the first bit of your original post: The book states that the Charge action doesn't provoke an AoO. The book also states in a subtext that while an action itself may not provoke, the movement may if you move out of a threatened square. Charging doesn't provoke attacks of oppertunity. Moving out of a threatened square provokes attacks of oppertunity. So if you charge a creature, and that creature has a normal 5' reach, and no enemies threaten any of the squares through which you move, then you do not provoke an attack of oppertunity. If you charge a creature that has reach, or if you charge through enemy squares, then the movement provokes an attack of oppertunity, and not the fact that it is a charge. And finally: And most importantly -- is the charge action defined as the attack action used or is the movement in a straight line itself considered the 'charge' and thus, according to the rules does not provoke an AoO? From the SRD: "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move." The idea is that the movement which is part of the charge can provoke an attack of oppertunity, but the simple act of charging does not, by itself, provoke an attack of oppertunity.
FriendoftheDork 05-30-05, 08:09 AM	Spring attack lets you move and attack opponents with reach without provoking AoO from them I think. This has been open to debate, but that's how we've interpreted it. I don't know if there has been any FAQ on it.
Nom 05-30-05, 08:31 AM	"See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be." And if you shut your eyes, it's not clear at all. My partial comment on charge can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=438127), on the "combat" board (rather than the DM-craft board). The only thing I'd add is that a "vanilla" charge doesn't provoke - the only threatened square you enter is the square at the end of your charge, and entering a threatened square doesn't provoke. Once we start talking reach weapons or moving through 3rd party threatened areas, charge provokes as normal. Table 8-2 is generally pretty robust. Never forget note 1: "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square you usually provoke an AoO. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an AoO." In other words, any movement taken as part of the action is not included in the AoO column of table 8-2, and typically provokes. The exceptions are all explicitly stated under their relevant rules. The odd entry is actually "Move". It is legal (but rather bizarre) to declare a move action and then not actually move, in which case you don't provoke an AoO. Similarly, finishing movement in a threaten square does not provoke. Technically, the "move" entry should be AoO: no (since AoOs during a move action are provoked only through the normal "leaving a threatened square") rules, but that would cause no end of confusion, so "yes" was probably the correct thing to put there. Similarly, the overrun entry is correct, though it probably would have been better to say "Yes", since you can't overrun without entering an opponent's square (and thus provoke an AoO).
Kalidor 05-30-05, 09:31 AM	"See? I don't think its as clear as people make it out to be." And if you shut your eyes, it's not clear at all. There's really no need to be condescending.
Mike W 05-30-05, 03:27 PM	Spring attack lets you move and attack opponents with reach without provoking AoO from them I think. This has been open to debate, but that's how we've interpreted it. I don't know if there has been any FAQ on it. You are correct in your interpretation. See below: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. (emphasis mine) The lack of exceptions for creatures with reach or reach wepons leads me to agree with you.