Charging... With a Wand? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charging... With a Wand? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Asciiman
05-16-05, 12:39 AM Once again my group wanted to do a few, "off the wall" or "on the fly" things. The one I remember the most in the game is this;

Can a PC, on his turn, charge an ally to get the use of his magic wand? The PC's move is 30 feet and the Ally is 40 feet away. Charge allows you to move up to double your move and get an attack at the end of it.

By the rules, activating a wand is a standard action, but the PC couldn't get there in a 30 foot move, so the PC wanted to essentially charge his ally to use the wand on him.

I can follow the logic on this, as the wand essentially required a touch attack to work, but in the end, I assume that the PC has to wave his arms around to use a wand and make appropriate motions that can't be done while barreling down on a friend.

Did I do this right? Or should it be changed? And if this can't be done, what if the PC wanted to charge an enemy with a wand that was harmful and required a touch attack, could he charge then?
Aeromus
05-16-05, 12:44 AM You did it correctly.

He could have charged with the wand, and then hit him with it... without activating....
Dreaming_in_the_void
05-16-05, 12:45 AM I would have ruled otherwise. A charge is a bold reckless physical attack, thus the plusses to hit and the penalty to AC.

A wand requires a standard action to activate, not an attack. Bottom line, a standard action can be used to make an attack, but an allowing an attack is not free license to take a standard action. To give an analogy, look at AoO's; you can attack anyone who provokes an AoO but you do not get a standard action to use against them.

Its not the end of the world, and if you want to house rule it in as acceptable I don't think you'd be disrupting game play or balance (if such a thing exists). Entirely up to you, but not legal according to the RAW.
Bloodtide_the_Red
05-16-05, 01:02 AM I see no reason why you could not use a melee type wand in a charge. A charge is a full round action, that lets you make an attack at the end. A atack is a standard action, and so is activating a wand. You don't have to spend one standard action to activate the wand and then spend another standard action to attack with it. Actavation covers the attack too, using a wand is not a full round action(or two standard actions).

Now the charge an ally to attack then with a healing wand? That's a bit fuzzy, but I guess you could do it. Just make sure he rolls to hit, as it is an attack.

You can charge and attack with a touch spell, and a wand is just a spell. Though for spellcasting you'd toss in concentration for violent movement. A wand should be a bit less then that, say vigorous movement...or even none.
BT
fatal error
05-16-05, 01:09 AM I see no reason why you could not use a melee type wand in a charge. A charge is a full round action, that lets you make an attack at the end. A atack is a standard action, and so is activating a wand. You don't have to spend one standard action to activate the wand and then spend another standard action to attack with it. Actavation covers the attack too, using a wand is not a full round action(or two standard actions).

Now the charge an ally to attack then with a healing wand? That's a bit fuzzy, but I guess you could do it. Just make sure he rolls to hit, as it is an attack.

You can charge and attack with a touch spell, and a wand is just a spell. Though for spellcasting you'd toss in concentration for violent movement. A wand should be a bit less then that, say vigorous movement...or even none.
BT

I don't think you can charge and attack with a touch spell, unless said spell can be stored to be released later, but that wouldn't be casting it while charging. I would say you cannot use a wand or cast a spell as the "attack" of a charge.
Dreaming_in_the_void
05-16-05, 01:11 AM I see no reason why you could not use a melee type wand in a charge. A charge is a full round action, that lets you make an attack at the end. A atack is a standard action, and so is activating a wand. You don't have to spend one standard action to activate the wand and then spend another standard action to attack with it. Actavation covers the attack too, using a wand is not a full round action(or two standard actions).

I respectfully disagree. There are times a character is allowed an attack, but not a standard action, to wit an AoO.

Just because you can use a standard action as an attack does not make them interchangeable. You can use a standard action to take a move action (i.e. a double move) but not the other way around.

A standard action seems to be the most encompassing of actions next to the full-round action/attack, while the others are lesser, more specific applications of a standard action.
Bloodtide_the_Red
05-16-05, 02:13 AM I don't think you should reduce the 'attack' taken after a charge to a normal non-magical melee attack only. If you say you can't cast spells or activiate a magic item...then you would also not be able to take any other standard type action. So you can't use a extraordinary ability, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability after a charge? You can't even sunder? Or aid another?
That does not look right. All you can do after a charge is make swing with a weapon....(or bull rush/overrun).

BT
Eliza_Stormwhisper
05-16-05, 02:23 AM Activating the wand: standard action.

Charging and attacking: full-round action.

Full-round action + standard action = more than one round.

Doesn't look to be working out to me.
Vharuck
05-16-05, 02:24 AM All single attacks are standard actions.

Not all standard actions are attacks.
Szat
05-16-05, 03:47 AM Bloodtide_the_red: That's exactly the point. A charge action is a melee combat manuever that allows you to make a single attack at the end of your charge. Which is why there are feats to modify what you can do after a charge such as bullrushing or the like.

If you think that's unfair then that's fine. But the rule works like that and WOTC has written it like that. Nuff' said.
Flushmaster
05-16-05, 04:30 AM An attack is a standard action but not all standard actions are attacks. Can't cast a spell after a charge; IIRC the RAW specifically state that you can only make a regular move and still cast if the spell has a casting time of one standard action (the same time as activating a wand). Move and cast, not charge/cast. A charge and attack spell (even with touch range) isn't allowed so I wouildn't allow a charge/heal.

If you want to house rule in this to be legal then you should at least include the +2 attack (requiring a touch attack on the ally to "hit" with the healing/buff spell from the wand) and the -2 AC to the "charging" character until their next turn. This means the "charging" character sufers a -2 AC until their next turn comes up and any smart enemy would think to take out the healer...make him/her an example of how to not be overly brave :P But that assumes you want to allow this, which by the rules as written (RAW) isn't allowable. I could see allowing it, with penalties as mentioned, as being justifiable, but I wouldn't.
Thoronmir
05-16-05, 10:22 AM Yep, I agree with the others … the only way to use the wand at the end of a charge is to thump the target over the head with it (without activating it). :D
snowlynx
05-16-05, 02:11 PM Hah! I shall charge you with my mighty faerie lance! What, you say this is a wand, not a weapon? Arrgh....how pitiful.

You can't use the wand and charge in the same turn, as everyone has said. Despite the fact that it requires an attack, activating the wand is a standard action; those who allow this might also say a wizard with a base attack bonus can get multiple spells in a round, since a spell is a standard action and so it one attack...
I have to say that's not the way it was meant to work :)
Vharuck
05-16-05, 02:32 PM Yes, you can sunder, disarm, and trip after a charge:

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack...

As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent...

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding...

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asciiman 05-16-05, 12:39 AM	Once again my group wanted to do a few, "off the wall" or "on the fly" things. The one I remember the most in the game is this; Can a PC, on his turn, charge an ally to get the use of his magic wand? The PC's move is 30 feet and the Ally is 40 feet away. Charge allows you to move up to double your move and get an attack at the end of it. By the rules, activating a wand is a standard action, but the PC couldn't get there in a 30 foot move, so the PC wanted to essentially charge his ally to use the wand on him. I can follow the logic on this, as the wand essentially required a touch attack to work, but in the end, I assume that the PC has to wave his arms around to use a wand and make appropriate motions that can't be done while barreling down on a friend. Did I do this right? Or should it be changed? And if this can't be done, what if the PC wanted to charge an enemy with a wand that was harmful and required a touch attack, could he charge then?
Aeromus 05-16-05, 12:44 AM	You did it correctly. He could have charged with the wand, and then hit him with it... without activating....
Dreaming_in_the_void 05-16-05, 12:45 AM	I would have ruled otherwise. A charge is a bold reckless physical attack, thus the plusses to hit and the penalty to AC. A wand requires a standard action to activate, not an attack. Bottom line, a standard action can be used to make an attack, but an allowing an attack is not free license to take a standard action. To give an analogy, look at AoO's; you can attack anyone who provokes an AoO but you do not get a standard action to use against them. Its not the end of the world, and if you want to house rule it in as acceptable I don't think you'd be disrupting game play or balance (if such a thing exists). Entirely up to you, but not legal according to the RAW.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-16-05, 01:02 AM	I see no reason why you could not use a melee type wand in a charge. A charge is a full round action, that lets you make an attack at the end. A atack is a standard action, and so is activating a wand. You don't have to spend one standard action to activate the wand and then spend another standard action to attack with it. Actavation covers the attack too, using a wand is not a full round action(or two standard actions). Now the charge an ally to attack then with a healing wand? That's a bit fuzzy, but I guess you could do it. Just make sure he rolls to hit, as it is an attack. You can charge and attack with a touch spell, and a wand is just a spell. Though for spellcasting you'd toss in concentration for violent movement. A wand should be a bit less then that, say vigorous movement...or even none. BT
fatal error 05-16-05, 01:09 AM	I see no reason why you could not use a melee type wand in a charge. A charge is a full round action, that lets you make an attack at the end. A atack is a standard action, and so is activating a wand. You don't have to spend one standard action to activate the wand and then spend another standard action to attack with it. Actavation covers the attack too, using a wand is not a full round action(or two standard actions). Now the charge an ally to attack then with a healing wand? That's a bit fuzzy, but I guess you could do it. Just make sure he rolls to hit, as it is an attack. You can charge and attack with a touch spell, and a wand is just a spell. Though for spellcasting you'd toss in concentration for violent movement. A wand should be a bit less then that, say vigorous movement...or even none. BT I don't think you can charge and attack with a touch spell, unless said spell can be stored to be released later, but that wouldn't be casting it while charging. I would say you cannot use a wand or cast a spell as the "attack" of a charge.
Dreaming_in_the_void 05-16-05, 01:11 AM	I see no reason why you could not use a melee type wand in a charge. A charge is a full round action, that lets you make an attack at the end. A atack is a standard action, and so is activating a wand. You don't have to spend one standard action to activate the wand and then spend another standard action to attack with it. Actavation covers the attack too, using a wand is not a full round action(or two standard actions). I respectfully disagree. There are times a character is allowed an attack, but not a standard action, to wit an AoO. Just because you can use a standard action as an attack does not make them interchangeable. You can use a standard action to take a move action (i.e. a double move) but not the other way around. A standard action seems to be the most encompassing of actions next to the full-round action/attack, while the others are lesser, more specific applications of a standard action.
Bloodtide_the_Red 05-16-05, 02:13 AM	I don't think you should reduce the 'attack' taken after a charge to a normal non-magical melee attack only. If you say you can't cast spells or activiate a magic item...then you would also not be able to take any other standard type action. So you can't use a extraordinary ability, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability after a charge? You can't even sunder? Or aid another? That does not look right. All you can do after a charge is make swing with a weapon....(or bull rush/overrun). BT
Eliza_Stormwhisper 05-16-05, 02:23 AM	Activating the wand: standard action. Charging and attacking: full-round action. Full-round action + standard action = more than one round. Doesn't look to be working out to me.
Vharuck 05-16-05, 02:24 AM	All single attacks are standard actions. Not all standard actions are attacks.
Szat 05-16-05, 03:47 AM	Bloodtide_the_red: That's exactly the point. A charge action is a melee combat manuever that allows you to make a single attack at the end of your charge. Which is why there are feats to modify what you can do after a charge such as bullrushing or the like. If you think that's unfair then that's fine. But the rule works like that and WOTC has written it like that. Nuff' said.
Flushmaster 05-16-05, 04:30 AM	An attack is a standard action but not all standard actions are attacks. Can't cast a spell after a charge; IIRC the RAW specifically state that you can only make a regular move and still cast if the spell has a casting time of one standard action (the same time as activating a wand). Move and cast, not charge/cast. A charge and attack spell (even with touch range) isn't allowed so I wouildn't allow a charge/heal. If you want to house rule in this to be legal then you should at least include the +2 attack (requiring a touch attack on the ally to "hit" with the healing/buff spell from the wand) and the -2 AC to the "charging" character until their next turn. This means the "charging" character sufers a -2 AC until their next turn comes up and any smart enemy would think to take out the healer...make him/her an example of how to not be overly brave :P But that assumes you want to allow this, which by the rules as written (RAW) isn't allowable. I could see allowing it, with penalties as mentioned, as being justifiable, but I wouldn't.
Thoronmir 05-16-05, 10:22 AM	Yep, I agree with the others … the only way to use the wand at the end of a charge is to thump the target over the head with it (without activating it). :D
snowlynx 05-16-05, 02:11 PM	Hah! I shall charge you with my mighty faerie lance! What, you say this is a wand, not a weapon? Arrgh....how pitiful. You can't use the wand and charge in the same turn, as everyone has said. Despite the fact that it requires an attack, activating the wand is a standard action; those who allow this might also say a wizard with a base attack bonus can get multiple spells in a round, since a spell is a standard action and so it one attack... I have to say that's not the way it was meant to work :)
Vharuck 05-16-05, 02:32 PM	Yes, you can sunder, disarm, and trip after a charge: Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack... As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent... You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding... You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.