Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Galahad the Pure 08-09-06, 10:06 PM	What's the lowest Con score you would play with? (28 point buy) The rogue in my group has a Con score of 10, and he's a tiefling. We currently consist of 6th level wizard Ftr3/Marshall3 (me) Tiefling Rogue 4 (ECL 5) I know it's not his job description to go toe to toe with enemies, so he can be forgiven for low hit points, but he chose improved feint for his feat. His current hp total is 18. I figure he's a walking corpse. It got me thinking about how I've never designed a character with a Con lower than 14, nor can I conceive of a situation when low con would be acceptable. Barbarian: Needs high Con. Bard: <14 and you're too fragile to be more than party support. Cleric: See above. Druid: Other than wisdom, what else will you put points into? Fighter: Needs high Con. *Exception* if you're an archer, 10-12 are ok. Monk: Con is relatively important, but the scaling AC mitigates this. Paladin: In spite of multiple ability dependency, pally needs 14. Ranger: If archery, it's not important. If TWF, same problem as paladin only worse. Rogue: Depends a lot on your role in the party. If you want to capitalize on sneak attack, in my view, high Con is imperative. Sorcerer: Other than charisma, what else will you put points into? Wizard: Other than intelligence, what else will you put points into? So, how low would you go?
CryoSilver 08-09-06, 10:08 PM	Given the choice, never less than a 14.
WinterPsionic 08-09-06, 10:17 PM	On most my chars Con is the second lowest score, followed only by Cha....
DarkRhystar 08-09-06, 10:32 PM	The main problem I see is that the Rogue has LA and is lower level than the party. Characters with LA are already suffering from a lower HP than others and dropping constitution only makes matters worse. The fact that he's a level behind makes it yet worse. Somehow I doubt that 10 Con would like quite so bad if he had even one more level under his belt which would put him on par with the rest of the party. However, how much would 4 more points of Constitution really help? 8 HP? So 26 HP doesn't equal a walking corpse whereas 18 does? I don't buy that. Personally, I'd be more worried about Fort saves as Rogues already have that as a weak save. Still, I find it odd that with the +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence the tiefling gets that he couldn't spare a couple more points for constitution. Anyway, smart planning and tactics can allow characters with only 6 CON to survive. Sure you have to be a little (read: a lot) more careful but it's doable. Wait and see what he does before judging him. If he doesn't die, that's a good sign that his CON isn't hurting him.
CryoSilver 08-09-06, 10:36 PM	A rogue's best friend is his Use Magic Device Skill. In combat, you should have False Life and Bear's Endurance up for anything serious. At higher levels, Divine Power and Righteous Might are also a must.
Endarrion 08-09-06, 10:38 PM	I think the point here isn't "How low is too low?," but rather, "How low is just right for the character concept that the player has in mind?" With a 28 point buy you really don't have enough points to keep every stat as high as you would want. Even with a 42 point buy, which is what my DM is giving everyone, I find that some of my stats aren't where I'd want them (I'm also playing a warforged so I take a hit to two scores, not just one). I think that with point buy, especially anything less than 34 or so, you have to go more with character concept than character power. I'm sure that this rogue character will be good at everything you guys will expect of him (opening locks, talking his way out of things, finding traps, etc), but the party fighter (aka you) is going to have to back him up through flanking and taking on the big baddies. Putting anything less than a 12 in Con is a hard choice for a player to make because of the importance of the stat, but I think the player is being brave by doing this and the rest of the party should be ready to bail him out if he gets in over his head. Try coming up with general tactics (if we're surrounded we'll start by doing this, or, if we're outnumbered we'll do this) so that you'll never be caught COMPLETELY off guard and you won't suffer any quick character kills.
JDubya 08-09-06, 10:43 PM	It's doable... you just have to be *very* smart about it. I ran a Star Wars game where our Scoundrel (SW Rogue, essentially) had a Con score of *9*. He played it very smart - when the blasters started firing, he dove for cover. He also took Shot on the Run, which allowed him to go from full cover to full cover after firing once between. I frequently play characters with low to middling constitution - in fact, I've rarely had a character who had over Con 14. Even my fighter had a Con 13. In other words, when your Con score is low, you have to take advantage of everything you can get. Find cover, use protective spells of all sizes and shapes, and being very good friends with the party healer. Some of this may be DM dependent - some DMs throw big mean creatures at their players, and almost expect a high Con on them. This may be the hardest obstacle to overcome. With a lower point buy, DMs should understand some scores will be lower. Personally, I find Dexterity a much higher priority, since I have the general rule "Don't get hit in the first place."
obrysii 08-09-06, 10:49 PM	No lower than 14, unless for some reason I'm forced to. Con tends to be one of my higher scores for my characters.
Rickiel 08-09-06, 11:03 PM	Personally, I wouldn't mind a Con score of 7 for a fighter. But of course, I'm a freak. In all seriousness however, one of my favorite characters, Raz, was a rogue that started out with a 14 Con. Then at some point mistakes on the part of others were made and Raz inadvertantly paid the price. Then someone had the decency to Reincarnate him and he became an elf. Dropped the Con down to 12. Still not too bad, but that extra few hit points and bonus to Fort would've been nice. Of course, that's purely from a mechanical point of view. A melee rogue with a Con of 10? A few words. First one in. First one out. Get the job done quick. With improved feint this can be accomplished. I also recommend having a tougher buddy to flank with. It always helps to have another buddy. Much of the above advice is sound and good. May your group of adventurers live long and profitable!
DM Zoc 08-09-06, 11:41 PM	I generally place Con after Dex and whatever class-specific prime requisite I may have. This means a 13 for the elite array, though it may vary depending on the specific character. People cheat when rolling hit points, and they also tend to cheat when rolling stats. In a point buy, people will sacrifice most other stats to get a nice Con. If I've ever been tempted to go 3d6 in order, it would be in an effort to stop every character from being massively Constitutional. I can't recall the last time I've seen a level 5 fighting type with less than 50 hit points. The only time I've seen a pure caster who didn't have Con as the second stat after the casting stat, it was because he prioritized Con above the casting stat. People like to have lots of hit points. They find it comforting to have a large buffer between death. It really only hurts everyone in the long run, though, as the DM is forced to throw more challenging monsters at the party in order to pose any sort of threat, at which point anyone who did not sacrifice everything for health will be one-shotted. To answer a question of the lowest survivable starting Con, I would say it's about four less than the highest starting Con in the party. That should be about 14 :rolleyes:
Galahad the Pure 08-09-06, 11:47 PM	I'm noticing the theme in the replies that he'll survive, as long as he's "smart." I take exception to this assessment, but I'll leave that for another thread. Using Improved Feint requires a full round of standing in front of an enemy. That's his big plan. And he won't last. He will either die or realize he hasn't built is character well. It's a shame really, because he's my flanking buddy. DarkRhystar: As a matter of fact, 8 HP can and would have made a big difference in a recent combat when he was dropped after a single attack by an enemy. The extra hp would at least have given him the opportunity to retreat to safety. I expect this to be a recurring theme in the battles to come. JDubya: It's counterproductive for a character to take feats oriented towards combat but dive for cover whenever things get ugly. And no matter how high your dex, you will get hit eventually, and you need to be able to take hits. CryoSilver: UMD is unreliable at level 4. Potions would be good though. Rickiel: That's good advice about striking hard and fast, but Improved Feint is a sluggish tactic.
CryoSilver 08-09-06, 11:49 PM	Level 4: 16 Cha, 7 ranks, SF: UMD = UMD +13 By level 6, you're foolish not to have an item that boosts UMD by another +5 for 2.5k gp.
Galahad the Pure 08-09-06, 11:54 PM	So I guess at level 6 it would be reliable then. Let me clarify: without investing a feat and a high charisma (tieflings get -2 Cha) UMD is unreliable at level 4.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-10-06, 12:10 AM	Lowest I'd go if I had my way? Naked Con 22, bare minimum. Realistically, when I'm not playing a werebear that spends all his time in hybrid form, lowest I'll make do with is Con 12. I just play too reckless to get away with less, and even with that much I feel uncomfortably fragile (not that it makes me much less reckless though, just more cover/concealment-seeking about it). Oh, and all that stuff DM Zoc said, that's a fault of cheating players and a DM that either (a) doesn't pay attention enough to stop the cheating or (b) lets it happen despite catching players doing it. That's not a Con problem, that's a you and your group problem.
Alric 08-10-06, 12:23 AM	Well there really isn't a reason not to get con. On pretty much any build con is going to rank third. I personally wouldn't mind going 8 con if I had 3 stats I needed. Not many classes take 3 stats. Maybe a paladin or something where you want fighter stats with spell casting, or possibly a druid. Even then though a druid doesn't need to max out str just because hes going to melee.
braindead345 08-10-06, 12:23 AM	Low CON is alright, if you think about it. First off, you need decent scores in DEX and INT. A smart character with low CON is not going to go hand-to-hand with enemies; therefor DEX is important. Not only for the AC bonus but for range weapons, especially composit longbows, as well. INT is needed for extra skill ranks, especially for healing; but it is really useful to avoid traps and stupid damage hits. Even so, taking the Great Fortitude Feat would be highly recommended. You might not have a great CON but it does help on the saving throws. From personal experience, I can say that a low CON score is playable. I was randomly rolling a 9th level character, letting the scores enter the stats as the came. 17 STR, 16 DEX, 18 INT, 7 CON, 12 CHA. I randomly rolled for race-Half Elf. So, I went with a Ranger5/Wizard4 and put my +2 for a 9th level character into CON (now 9). Oddly enough was the next to last to be killed in Return to the Temple of Elemetal Evil, despite the -12 HP accumulated.
FeceMan 08-10-06, 12:33 AM	I'd play a 10 CON.
ChaoticGood 08-10-06, 12:43 AM	Personally, I find Dexterity a much higher priority, since I have the general rule "Don't get hit in the first place." Seconded! Dexterity is far more important, especially for a Rogue. I believe the real problem here is not the character's stat score at all... It's his feat choice. As you have pointed out, Galahad, Improved Feint requires him to stand up to a full round of punishment before it becomes useful, and that just isn't going to happen with his current Hit Points. In all likelihood, the player saw the word "Feint" and thought, "Hey! Feint uses Bluff, so Rogues should be good at it!" ... and let's face it, without actually sitting down and working out the numbers, most people would have the same initial thought. I would talk him (and the DM) into letting him trade that feat for something less "frontline." Some suggestions: - Dodge would give him a small edge in pursuing that noble goal, "Don't get hit in the first place." - Great Fortitude would cover the Fort save gap. - Improved Initiative might help him get out of the way before the swords start swinging. - Point Blank Shot (leading to Shot on the Run later) would give him an incentive to stay out of melee.
KirkBb 08-10-06, 12:46 AM	I just created a very wierd fighter type character with 10 con.
Nom 08-10-06, 01:06 AM	My wife played a tiefling monk with Con 8. HP weren't a big problem, since she generally relied on her massive AC and good positioning to not get hit in the first place. Con damage (eg poison) was more problematic. Low Con is fine. You just need to focus on not getting hit and make sure you have a backup plan in case you take serious HP damage or Con damage.
InterSilva 08-10-06, 01:08 AM	I actually place Con as third or fourth most important on most of the characters I play (casters), but we use a higher-powered stat determination system (4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest). Even if I was forced to use a PB system, I prefer a high Cha, Int, Dex, and Wis, not neccesarily in that order. I just like the flavor of higher mental stats. So yes, I'd play a 10 Constitution.
Galahad the Pure 08-10-06, 01:09 AM	In all likelihood, the player saw the word "Feint" and thought, "Hey! Feint uses Bluff, so Rogues should be good at it!" ... and let's face it, without actually sitting down and working out the numbers, most people would have the same initial thought. I would talk him (and the DM) into letting him trade that feat for something less "frontline." Actually, he's just a guy who loves playing rogues and wanted to try something different. I won't fault him for that. It's turned out that he doesn't even need improved feint, because I took the feat adaptable flanker, for use in conjunction with the Marshall's master of tactics aura. Also, the wizard has a spell from Magic of Faerun or something similar called "Steel Dance" (I'm really not sure because I don't have the books on this) which animates swords who also confer flanking bonuses to us. In other words, we're an extremely pro-flanking party. I think I have sounded a little resentful in this post, but I'm not. I just thought it was funny that he allocated his points heavily in favor of offense, and this will eventually cost him.
ChaoticGood 08-10-06, 02:07 AM	Playing "something different" is good, but what you play also needs to work within the context of your party. The Improved Feint tactic doesn't really work well with a low-Con melee rogue, so I hold to my original position. It's not his Con score that is the problem here, it's his feat selection. If you, as a party, need him in a flanking postion, then perhaps Skill Focus (Tumble) would have been more appropriate. Heck, at this point, there is probably a feat out there somewhere that allows you to flank with ranged attacks...
Elucidus 08-10-06, 02:30 AM	My last game I played a halfling cleric of Mystra who had a con of 10...or was it 12. I think it was 10 anyway he acts more like a wizard than anything else, he is a cloistered cleric to begin with.
ressurrector 08-10-06, 03:24 AM	I don't think I've ever played with a con lower than 12 that I can remember, but I can see how it could be done safely. If I were to play a druid or a ranged attack character I might try it. However, all it takes is one strong and smart enemy with a readied action to ruin your whole day regardless. Speaking personally I give my characters more build points, fully expecting and hoping for a hiher con, just to prevent lucky crit-hits from dropping them without a chance.
Elucidus 08-10-06, 03:43 AM	A druid is one of the last I would go with a low con, you keep your hit points when you wild shape, unless you don't planning on joining combat with wild shape.
kelvinaw273 08-10-06, 05:56 AM	Myself I would take a high con for a straight-up fighter, but not worry too much for anything else. On 28 point buy it's hard to get all-round good scores, so concentrate on what you absolutely NEED for the character - for a rogue, you want Dexterity and Intelligence. That said, I would never let my Con fall bellow 10 ... it just isn't worth it!
babysamurai 08-10-06, 08:07 AM	Dex vs. Con? I think it totally depends on the character.
stabs 08-10-06, 09:21 AM	A few times I've found that Con is the only stat I can dump without completely changing my character concept. For example, my last low Con character was working with an Array of 17, 15, 15, 14, 9, 5 Well. I wanted a gunslinger cowboy who played guitar and had a few psychic powers. 17 Dex fer shootin', 15 Charisma fer singin', good so far. 15 into Wisdom to boost my PP, and because he's an old salt at this outdoorsman business and holds a lot of wisdom. It came down to 14/9/5 and Int/Str/Con. Now, he wasn't gonna be stupid, and I didn't want him outgrappled by the party Wizard, so the 5 ended up in Con. Sure, it made him fragile as all heck, but all I had to change about the character was that he was now Sickly. He didn't become Stupid, or Ugly, or weak as a kitten. He died to Orc axes at lvl 10, but dammit, at least he was a damn interesting character.
Pandaemoni 08-10-06, 09:35 AM	My "minimum playable Con" depends on the class hit die: For a d4 hit point class, I wouldn't want to play with a Con of less than 10 (though if challenged to, I suppose I might). d4: 10 or higher d6: 10 or higher d8: 8 or higher d10: 6 or higher d12: 4 or higher Not that I've "aim" for those numbers, but in terms of what I'd play without seriously *****ing about it... Then again, what's the worst that can happen...the character dies? I guess I'm even more flexible than this post suggests, though at scores lower than those listed I might actually "hope" for my character to die, which might not be good.
aotrscommander 08-10-06, 09:47 AM	Typically, I avoid any stat below 10 unless there's a good reason for it; Str for a wizard (but of course that measn carrying very little kit) or a mental stat for rpg reasons. I prefer to have at least a flat modifier (+0) unless it fits with the concept. I will have at least 10 in Con, and usually it ends up as about 12-14, depending on character type. In general, I prefer Dex to Con when assigning stats, except in the case of heavy armour tanks when I've got loads of spare points (Dex doesn't need to be more than 12 in these instances otherwise). Of course, my experience is mainly in parties of about six, rather than the D&D's assumed standard of four. As we discovered during our current campaign, the amount of party members is signficant to surviability. The difference in having merely 3 party members made for more than a 25% effect. In a larger party, you are likely to be taking disproportionatly less damage, even when fighting more enemies; it's also not so fatal if a party member goes down, because there's usually someone nearby to do something about it.
Duke 08-10-06, 09:52 AM	I once played a psion with a Con of 5. 1 hp a level. It was fairly ridiculous, but I played him for several levels before the campaign stopped.
Galahad the Pure 08-10-06, 11:39 AM	The question of Dex vs. Con is not a very good question, because they're cooperating forces rather than opposing forces. From an optimization standpoint, it's silly to rely entirely on AC at the expense of hp, and vice versa. The best bet is to have several lines of defense, and distribute points (relatively) closely between the two scores. (Unless you're wearing full-plate, but that's outside of the context of my original example.) Of course if your character concept is the sickly gunslinger or the clumsy meat shield, you're imposing additional constraints on yourself. That isn't a bad thing as long as your characters are enjoyable.
Secrets Untold 08-10-06, 12:48 PM	Barbarian: Needs high Con. Bard: <14 and you're too fragile to be more than party support. Cleric: See above. Druid: Other than wisdom, what else will you put points into? Fighter: Needs high Con. *Exception* if you're an archer, 10-12 are ok. Monk: Con is relatively important, but the scaling AC mitigates this. Paladin: In spite of multiple ability dependency, pally needs 14. Ranger: If archery, it's not important. If TWF, same problem as paladin only worse. Rogue: Depends a lot on your role in the party. If you want to capitalize on sneak attack, in my view, high Con is imperative. Sorcerer: Other than charisma, what else will you put points into? Wizard: Other than intelligence, what else will you put points into? My veiws are below. Barbarian: Yup. Bard: I say less then 12 is bad, and bards are SUPPOSED to be support. Cleric: See above, and it goes WIS, CHA or CON, then (CHA or CON) or STR Druid: WIS, then DEX or STR, then (STR or DEX) or CON. You want to be good with natural attacks, and animals have good con. Fighter: Leave archery to the Ranger, but you're right there. Monk: I see it as DEX, then WIS, then STR or CON. I like CON better. Paladin: Aye. Ranger: Very True. Rogue: You've got a good point there. Sorcerer: CHA, then DEX, then CON Wizard: INT, then DEX, then CON
DarkRhystar 08-10-06, 01:11 PM	DarkRhystar: As a matter of fact, 8 HP can and would have made a big difference in a recent combat when he was dropped after a single attack by an enemy. The extra hp would at least have given him the opportunity to retreat to safety. I expect this to be a recurring theme in the battles to come. Well like I said before, he has multiple strikes against him. 1 level lost to LA 1 level missing (level 5 with a pair of level 6's?) Low Constitution All contribute to a small pool of Hit Points. If 8 HP would have made a difference then 6 (1d6) from another Rogue level to bring him on par with the party may have done the trick as well. I'd also ask about the odds of that "single attack" actually hitting his AC. It's one thing to say he is weak (Low AC/Low HP), but it's another thing to get a nasty critical hit by the luck of the dice.
Galahad the Pure 08-10-06, 06:48 PM	Secrets: Animal constitution doesn't modify a Druid's hp, at least that's the impression I was under when I wrote my OP. I don't agree with your view on Sor/Wiz, but I can empathize. Dark Rhystar: It wasn't a nasty critical, it was a normal everyday pedestrian guarden-variety run-of-the-mill hit. The reason why he's one level below is because he's already had a trip to the underworld, courtesy of his low HP. You make it sound like these are circumstances thrust upon him from beyond his control. Nope, he CHOSE to put a 10 in Con, he CHOSE to be a tiefling, he CHOSE his feats, and it was because of HIS choices that his character can explain firsthand what happens in the afterlife. His AC is 18, from Studded Leather, a dex mod of 4, and a +1 morale bonus from my commander aura (see Heroes of Battle). Not pitifully low, but you're going to get hit eventually.
Reversefigure4 08-10-06, 07:06 PM	On a Point Buy system, I'd usually put my CON to between 12 and 14. On a rolling system, you kind of lose the option, given there's no guarantee you'll even ROLL a 14.
Sphyre 08-10-06, 08:12 PM	Druid: WIS, then DEX or STR, then (STR or DEX) or CON. You want to be good with natural attacks, and animals have good con. Wha? With current errata, wildshape doesn't modify your HP due to changed con (although fort saves are changed) Without current errata, wildshape does modify your HP due to changed con as normal. Either way, whenever you wildshape all of your physical scores are changed when you wildshape. This means your str and dex are worthless for purposes of meleeing if you are wildshaping. If you are using a wild feat, or using the shifter variant in the PHBII those scores matter. I don't follow why you'd put points into str and dex as a druid for other than being non-wildshaped AC or if you actually USE manufactured weapons?
Sapp 08-10-06, 08:52 PM	Personally, I wouldn't mind a Con score of 7 for a fighter. But of course, I'm a freak.Nonsense. I have plenty of masochistic friends who aren't freaks.
DarkRhystar 08-10-06, 11:27 PM	Dark Rhystar: It wasn't a nasty critical, it was a normal everyday pedestrian guarden-variety run-of-the-mill hit. Then his HP is definitely too low for the campaign. If a standard blow in your game is dealing ~18 damage, I think AC is a lot more pressing of concern as one or two good hits will put anything other than a Fighter-type down for the count pretty quick. The reason why he's one level below is because he's already had a trip to the underworld, courtesy of his low HP. It doesn't matter why. A level behind is a level behind. I find the one level less rule to be stupid myself. Each level lost just makes it more likely for you to die. That's a personal opinion though. :) You make it sound like these are circumstances thrust upon him from beyond his control. Nope, he CHOSE to put a 10 in Con, he CHOSE to be a tiefling, he CHOSE his feats, and it was because of HIS choices that his character can explain firsthand what happens in the afterlife. It's actually not as bad as you make it out to be. Tiefling is a great race for Rogues. +2 DEX and +2 INT are excellent. The +2 racial bonus to Bluff synergizes well with Improved Feint as well. His AC is 18, from Studded Leather, a dex mod of 4, and a +1 morale bonus from my commander aura (see Heroes of Battle). Not pitifully low, but you're going to get hit eventually. No offense, but for an ECL 6 party... that is a bit low. A Ring of Protection +1 and Chain Shirt +1 are well within pricing guidelines while still leaving enough to acquire a decent weapon and a few other items. That would put his AC at a solid 20. Add in your aura for 21. This isn't even considering the various protections your level 6 Wizard should be able to spare.
StevenO 08-10-06, 11:49 PM	Using point buy 28 I'll almost alway start with Primary Stat 14, DEX 14, CON 14 and then work from there. Although I will not drop it below CON 10 except in an extreme case I will easily take a point or two from it if another stat needs the boost. CON is easily the stat I'm most likely to leave at an odd score since extra hp are retroactive. Now for the OP I can definitely see why he thinks this Tiefling Rogue's CON is too low. With the rest of the party at level 6 being 2 HD behind averages 7 fewer hp which would take a significant CON score to make up at low levels. That is the real problem (too few HD) not the low CON score.
Stev Beren 08-11-06, 08:14 AM	. .its gotten to the point where having a ten in somethign is "Way too low to be playable?" Wow. . MOreover, tyhat below fourteen is too low to be playavle? Is it "I can't play without BONUSES!!!
Elucidus 08-11-06, 01:34 PM	Im; currently playing a character with an 8 dex. I haven't seen that one done since they were rolled up. Just thought a klutzy elf would be fin to role play.
ressurrector 08-11-06, 02:44 PM	. .its gotten to the point where having a ten in somethign is "Way too low to be playable?" Wow. . MOreover, tyhat below fourteen is too low to be playavle? Is it "I can't play without BONUSES!!! Oh, it's playable, but in 3.5 there's too much of a focus on combat, and in case you've never looked the damage/to-hit blocks on most monsters are nothing to laugh at. If someone wants to go toe-to-toe, they need a good con to survive multiple hits, that's just the way it is. If you want low con, stay out of melee and it'll be fine unless a stray arrow catches you in the head at low level.
Thubby 08-11-06, 03:28 PM	6 is as low as i ever have, and ever will play. he was deliberately frale, he was on a quest to find immortality (basicaly leveling up to "learn" to become a lich). he had the abjurure class thing in comp arc, so when he was attacked, he just threw up the apropriate vale. he also had instant counterspell, to guard against otehr mages
LCD2YOU 08-11-06, 03:49 PM	As for the classes, I agree with a lot of them. However, as for the Paladin, they have many uses for all their stats. If I were building a Paladin for 28 points, I'd rather have a Dex of 14 and a Con of 10. As the Paladin already has +2 to Fort, the ability to move quicker (ie attempt to hit first) and be harder to hit (higher AC), out wieghs the extra +2 on Fort saves and +2 hp/level. Then there are those feats that have >12 Dex requirments that really come in handy. But that's me.
Stev Beren 08-11-06, 08:50 PM	Oh, it's playable, but in 3.5 there's too much of a focus on combat, and in case you've never looked the damage/to-hit blocks on most monsters are nothing to laugh at. If someone wants to go toe-to-toe, they need a good con to survive multiple hits, that's just the way it is. If you want low con, stay out of melee and it'll be fine unless a stray arrow catches you in the head at low level. Well, for example; MAke it dang hard to hit you, did that with one character, and he goes toe to toe and lasts the combat just fine. . and has no constitution HP bonus whatsoever.
ressurrector 08-11-06, 09:10 PM	Well, for example; MAke it dang hard to hit you, did that with one character, and he goes toe to toe and lasts the combat just fine. . and has no constitution HP bonus whatsoever. I guess I'm more biased towards low level characters, where a single nat 20 with a melee attack can spell instant death to just about any character. A luky hit with an arrow can do the same, but they only crit for 3d6 or 3d8 without any bonuses (at low level) and only half as often. An orc with a greatsword can really ruin your day at level 1-3.
Marvos 08-12-06, 04:30 AM	I play a tiefling rogue with a 10 con. I found out the hard way that with a 10 con you don't go toe-to-toe with your enemies. If your con is that low, you should invest in hide and move silently, also in dex and int. Remember, rogues are proficient with the shortbow and they can sneak attack with a ranged weapon.
Stev Beren 08-12-06, 07:08 AM	I guess I'm more biased towards low level characters, where a single nat 20 with a melee attack can spell instant death to just about any character. A luky hit with an arrow can do the same, but they only crit for 3d6 or 3d8 without any bonuses (at low level) and only half as often. An orc with a greatsword can really ruin your day at level 1-3. My innate preference is low level as well, but I can survive with a low con> I have been brought pretty close to death a few times, but have concentrated largely on mobility and evasive feats, and can usually move in and out of battle pretty effectively when I need to.
Fion81 08-12-06, 11:54 AM	Some ppl pick stats based on role playing reasons. Generally i like my characters to have hight int/wis, no matter what they are. Though i wont bankrupt my con to accomplish this. Also, it can be a challenge to overcome a weakness, could be fun. Low stats can lead to unconventional games which is interesting. But we roleplay our stats, if we pick a low int/cha we play dumb/poor mannered, so if u want your character to have a certain level of intelligence and attitude, u dont make those dump stats.
StevenO 08-12-06, 11:49 PM	I guess I'm more biased towards low level characters, where a single nat 20 with a melee attack can spell instant death to just about any character. A luky hit with an arrow can do the same, but they only crit for 3d6 or 3d8 without any bonuses (at low level) and only half as often. An orc with a greatsword can really ruin your day at level 1-3. You do realize that a natural 20 is only a hit not a guaranteed critical. You still need to hit again to confirm that damage increase. Just mentioning this because some converted DnD minis players may not remember that 20 doesn't always equal critical.
ressurrector 08-13-06, 12:42 AM	You do realize that a natural 20 is only a hit not a guaranteed critical. You still need to hit again to confirm that damage increase. Just mentioning this because some converted DnD minis players may not remember that 20 doesn't always equal critical. Yes I realise it, but at level 1-3 ACs generally top out at 15-20, so confirming a critical from a decent str opponant isn't too hard. Half-Orc Fighter1 with greatsword (focus): +5 to-hit easily, possibly up to +8 depending how evil your DM is. also 2d6+4 to 2d6+7 damage depending. (11 to 14 average, not critical).
KmartKommando 08-13-06, 01:16 AM	1 level of barbarian and a maxxed-out dwarf CON seems to be the way to go. Our frontline fighter is a dwarf wizard, also the hitter, the blocker, and has the most hit points. In a double-sized party, no less. As a human Psychic Warrior, I can only out hitpoint him with Vigor, and can't touch him in terms of damage. At least until I can get some scrolls of polymorph to play with..
Nukacola 08-13-06, 01:17 AM	Yes I realise it, but at level 1-3 ACs generally top out at 15-20, so confirming a critical from a decent str opponant isn't too hard. Half-Orc Fighter1 with greatsword (focus): +5 to-hit easily, possibly up to +8 depending how evil your DM is. also 2d6+4 to 2d6+7 damage depending. (11 to 14 average, not critical). 100% agreed. Even the level 1 orc warriors (the CR 1/2 ones) in the MM1 are super dangerous at low levels despite having only 5 hp. 17 STR, so they get +4 damage with a 2h. Get rid of the dumb Alertness feat and replace it with WF with a Greataxe. Crit damage output with that weapon is 3d12+12 with that STR score, for an average of 31.5 damage. Easily an instant deathblow for any character at level 1, and enough to put even a level 3 character under. Hell, a 16 con fighter at level 3 that rolled max HP every level has 39 hp. If he rolled average he has 30, so he's still one-shottable by an average crit from a CR 1/2 level 1 warrior orc with a greataxe.
Pegasos989 08-13-06, 03:18 AM	have you ever heard of the wizard called Raistlin in dragonlance? You can kiss his Con 3! Also, aside from that, I have seen one other wizard getting to level 14 (with 17 hp... :D) with con 3. The melee characters (barbarian, fighter, possibly ranger) need con 14+. The ranged characters (anyone going to deal lots of ranged damage) need con 12+ in case they want to be efficient (I just played warmage with con 10 in VERY high powered campaign. still he got to level 6... then el 10 encounter dropped him to -10) The support characters (bard, cleric, etc,) need atleast con 10 as they will be near melee. The arcane casters etc. who won't be able to take hit anyways, should still have con of atleast 8 for concentration, etc. With anything lower, you can still survive. Improved toughness will be your best friend.
DM Zoc 08-13-06, 04:51 AM	I've made it to level 8 with a grand total of 12 hit points, though it involved a significant Con modifier and only one hit die (savage progression for a half-dragon pixie). I imagine the result is much the same strategy: combat is about saving yourself first, and make up for it by contributing to the party out of combat.
Limousine_Liberal 08-13-06, 05:43 AM	have you ever heard of the wizard called Raistlin in dragonlance? You can kiss his Con 3! Actually, stat-wise, the character of Raistlin (the PnP RPed one on whom the novel character was based) had a Constitution of 10. He was supposed to be a frail man with shattered health, but he "bolstered it" with a medicinal red tea (even in the stories). He stated off (in what became the module DL1 "Dragons of Despair") as a third-level Magic User with 9 hp...and by DL14 (Dragons of Triumph) he was 11th level with 35 hit points. His official stats were: Str: 10 Int: 17 Wis: 14 Dex: 16 Con: 10 Cha: 10 (First edition did not allow automatic stat increases as you leveled, and was--especially in the Dragionlance setting--very light on stat enhancing magic items for everything except Strength, so his stats were pretty much fixed throughout the game.) The "broken body/coughing up blood" stuff was all "flavor text." that the player who initially ran him thought up (along with his thin, whispery voice). Edit: By the way, 9 hit points was "better than average" for a third-level magic-user, because you did not automatically get max hit points at first level, you rolled a d4 for them just like any other level. He actually had higher than expected hit points his whole career (7.5 was the expectation at 3rd level and 27.5 at 11th level). YAY, FLAVOR TEXT!!! :D
FiestFan 08-13-06, 08:36 AM	On 25 points, I usually end up: 15 14 13 10 10 10, with the 15 going into my 'primary stat' - STR for Fighter or Barbarian, DEX for Rogue or Ranger, WIS for Cleric/Druid or Monk, CHA for Bard, Paladin or Sorc, INT for Wizard. The 14 goes in CON. Period. I'll get by with a Monk or Paladin with 13 STR, or a Fighter with a 10 DEX (assuming INT gets the 13). Scrimp too much on CON, and you're dead, especially at low-mid levels (4 - 9) where Ability damage starts to rear its ugly head. Now, could I build a survivable character with a 10 or lower CON? Absolutely. With the possible exceptions of Druid and Monk, every other Class can reliably be made into a Ranged attacker, even if the Barbarian looks silly doing it. It requires a far more careful approach when you dump CON than it does when you dump any other Stat, though.
Stev Beren 08-13-06, 08:41 AM	I think the problem I have its the assumption that a ten is a "Dump" stat. .
FiestFan 08-13-06, 08:47 AM	I think the problem I have its the assumption that a ten is a "Dump" stat. . Understood, and to a point, seconded. I was simply giving the array I'd ordinarily choose in the by-the-book 25 point buy system. I'd easily play a Gnome Sorc with a pre-racial adjustment STR of 8, and have. I've also done the CHA 5, and WIS 6, when using a rolled generation method. Current rules do not encourage you to attempt any stats below 8 before racial mods, though, as evidenced by the point buy rules.
Mc_Bane 08-13-06, 09:39 AM	Well, I currently play the Party's main fighter in a party of three with Con 6. Okay, I'm pretty fragile, and I wear only light armour, but it works...sorta... Its pretty fun, right up until whilst sneaking around a merchants shop at night, our lousy rogue screws up his disable device and lets off a cloudkill.... At first, we all though it was gas, and we calmly said, "Right, I take a deep breath and ....." The other two were still going for the boxes that we wanted...Right up until the DM said, right, you all take 2D4 Constitution damage.... *Gasp, left of either 1 or 2 constituion, I just leapt through the window, and crawled for help, passing out at some stage I recall, I think I was carried the rest of the way... But yeah, until then it was fine, I usually preference DEx, INT, and STR before Con, regardless of what character I'm playing...
Pegasos989 08-13-06, 11:08 AM	Actually, stat-wise, the character of Raistlin (the PnP RPed one on whom the novel character was based) had a Constitution of 10. He was supposed to be a frail man with shattered health, but he "bolstered it" with a medicinal red tea (even in the stories). He stated off (in what became the module DL1 "Dragons of Despair") as a third-level Magic User with 9 hp...and by DL14 (Dragons of Triumph) he was 11th level with 35 hit points. His official stats were: Str: 10 Int: 17 Wis: 14 Dex: 16 Con: 10 Cha: 10 (First edition did not allow automatic stat increases as you leveled, and was--especially in the Dragionlance setting--very light on stat enhancing magic items for everything except Strength, so his stats were pretty much fixed throughout the game.) The "broken body/coughing up blood" stuff was all "flavor text." that the player who initially ran him thought up (along with his thin, whispery voice). Edit: By the way, 9 hit points was "better than average" for a third-level magic-user, because you did not automatically get max hit points at first level, you rolled a d4 for them just like any other level. He actually had higher than expected hit points his whole career (7.5 was the expectation at 3rd level and 27.5 at 11th level). YAY, FLAVOR TEXT!!! :D Bah, I have been misinformed. :D Well, okay, thanks for the correction
gos_jim 08-13-06, 06:03 PM	Played a half-orc cleric named Job with a 5 con once in Scarred Lands. Basically I said he was a runt and had a curse put on him by the gods or fate or something (hence the name) at birth so that he would be abandoned and taken in by a wandering monk (not the fighting kind). Sort of his "destiny" or whatever, and also as a test to make sure that he would have the determination and faith to fulfill it. Taken to a monastery he grew up reading and learning about religion and stuff like that, worshiped that one female goddess in Scarred Lands, starts with an M, don't remember. I didn't put points into Con or use any Con increasing abilities or spells, cuz it didn't fit with my idea of the curse, essentially he was doomed to it. But in exchange for playing the low Con and coming up with the back story my DM let me change the racial modifiers of half-orcs (not all, just mine), so instead of taking a +2 to STR and a -2 to INT and CHA I just took the -2 to CHA and no bonuses (which I think is fair and makes sense, he'd still not be charismatic growing up in a different setting, but he might be more intelligent than his race would normally be, and less strong). Our group was on an epic (not the book, just the adjective) quest to gather the pieces of that one titan who had been ripped apart in the titan's war, I think we were tricked into believing it would do something OTHER than bring him back to life, but we brought him back and destroyed him once and for all, only after he killed a couple of the gods, including my own. By the time this happened and the campaign was over, we were almost 20th level and the DM let my character ascend to take over the portfolio, seeing as I was about as devout as you can get (took the contemplative prestige class [back in 3.0] and everything). Was probably one of my favorite characters ever, had to be very careful about where I was in combat and not let myself get too close to anything that could just rip me apart easily. Grand total hit points at almost level 20? 35.
enlightened 08-13-06, 09:42 PM	Rastlin may have had a CON of 10, but had the 3.5 unearthed arcana been out at that time he probably would have had the flaws feeble and frail. And maybe a new one called sickly(-3 penaly on Fort saves). EDIT: It's not new, it's called meager fortitude. sorry :D
Limousine_Liberal 08-14-06, 03:32 PM	Rastlin may have had a CON of 10, but had the 3.5 unearthed arcana been out at that time he probably would have had the flaws feeble and frail. And maybe a new one called sickly(-3 penaly on Fort saves). EDIT: It's not new, it's called meager fortitude. sorry :D The point is, he didn't need those flaws, mechanically, to adopt them flavor-wise. Besides that, if he'd had those flaws, the player would be saddled with mechanical disadvantages. As it was, his "red tea" completely shored him up to full, functional health and, for flavor purposes only, he could occasionally cough up blood and display other signs of his "wracked health." (If he'd actually had the flaws, the red tea (presumably) wouldn't have cured him of them.) Better to play character as frail, but not be, than to actually be frail.
ashera 08-15-06, 06:52 AM	I prefer a con of 10..and not higher than 12. It may seem odd, but whenever I have made a char with a high con, they missed the first save and die, or been the victim of bad die rolls in someway or another (we play with open rolls, so thats NOT the dm's fault). yes, I'm being superstitious, but it works :D