Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AmadeusMaxwell 02-08-06, 01:13 PM	The subject describes my DM. I'm trying to make a level 4 character to play in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil mod, I get 5400 gold starting and can only spend half of it on a single item. I've had MANY MANY MANY ideas for characters but each time either my DM or his buddy that is 100% rules **** retentive also shoots it down. My DM has ZERO imagination and will not allow ANYTHING if he doesn't have EXACT rules for it. This leaves me as a player having a horrible horrible time because I like to try to be creative and with other DM's, they will usually atleast let me attempt something that's not in the rules and they'll come up for a difficulty on the fly; my current DM can NOT do this and since being creative is what I'm best at I'm practically helpless in this game. The only option I can possibly think of to actually play and succeed is to make a character that never does ANYTHING.....EVER. We've only played 2 games and I didn't have fun either time and I even died in the second game (hence why I'm trying to make a character now). Has anyone else had this problem? Short of not playing is there any way I can fix this? Right now in the group is: Half-Orc Barbarian Elf Favored Soul Elf Paladin Dwarf Barbarian Gnome Wizard I'll make anything and do anything, I just don't care anymore (about this particular game/DM) so please, tell me what I to make and how to play the character, it just has to be EXACTLY by the rules.
DragonDeadite 02-08-06, 01:25 PM	Easy... make a Kobold Wizard... named Pun-Pun...
VirgilCaine 02-08-06, 01:31 PM	I'll make anything and do anything, I just don't care anymore (about this particular game/DM) so please, tell me what I to make and how to play the character, it just has to be EXACTLY by the rules. You haven't said any of what you have pitched to the DM. What concepts have you pitched before? Is he a new DM or is he experienced? Perhaps you could explain that you are trying to be creative and not looking for Uber-power or for a way to annoy him. He may have had bad experiences in the past.
JadeSpider9643 02-08-06, 01:37 PM	What sort of things are you trying to do for which their arn't rules? homebrewing your own race, class, template, feats, spells, and items? cause I wouldn't blame a DM for shooting that down. or is it more subtle? like not allowing you to make a bluff that's not listed as an example in the phb because it doesn't have rules for it's exact DC? I'll say this, the rules are time tested, and despite various mass arguements over very small points, they have stood up very well. The rules make the game fair for everyone, you have to have rules. If you don't have rules you get this: two 9 year olds playing space cowboys: Billy: Bang! Bang! I shot you dead with my laser pistol! Timmy: No you didn't! I activated my laser blocking force field and your shot bounced off! Billy: No your force field didn't work because this is my SUPER laser pistol and it shoots right thru force fields. Timmy: Nuh uh! Billy: Uh huh! Timmy: MOM! Billy's cheating at space cowboys again!!! And we don't want THAT, now do we? Give us some more info and mabye we can better assess your situation and provide assistance. I have to go play space ninja now...
AmadeusMaxwell 02-08-06, 01:42 PM	I've tried making a sorcerer with a light cross bow and he called me an idiot for giving a sorcerer a weapon. I've tried a tiefling monk, but he doesn't know the rules for ECL and won't let me be tiefling or anything else that requires ECL. I've inquired about multiple combinations of multi-classed characters and he said "I wouldn't recommend it" which is his way of saying "I'm gonna be ****** if you do" wihch leaves my only options to base races/classes. I tried to make a regular human monk with rogue type skills since we don't have a rogue, but again he repeated "I wouldn't recommend it" even though I'm aware of the consequences for it and willing to accept it. My only options that I can think of is a character only using the skills/feat/weapons made specifically for that character; I think this makes the game extremely boring. I've explained to him that I'm only concerned with making an intresting character not one that's gonna always succeed at everything he does. Edit: I've tried the homebrewing stuff also which was a no go either, but that I can't blame him too much even though I thought it was all fairly balanced. Regardless of that though he won't let me do anything if there's not a rule for it. Example: I tried using rope with a grapple to use as a throw weapn and trip a humanoind that was my size, his response is that you can't use rope that way. I've tried pouring oil on a monster to set it on fire, he said oil isn't made for that and I can't do it. I've asked if I can use an alchemist set to make special items like adding flash powder to a thunderstone so it's blinding and deafening, he said it's not a listed Item so I can't do it. That's all I can think of off hand
wonlee76 02-08-06, 01:45 PM	Yeah, you're going to have to give us an idea as to what your character pitch is. Looking over the rest of the group, it looks like he is allowing stuff from the Complete Series (the favored soul being an example). Are you trying to place a monster race and breaking the rules on the ECL system? Are you making up a new unique race out of your imagination? New class? If he's allowing players to use the Complete Series, I honestly can't imagine why you are having difficulty with coming up with a PC that your DM will approve, unless your idea of imagination and creativity revolves around ideas/concepts/abilities that have never been published in some book or magazine (or books/magazines that your DM does not have). EDIT: Bleh, you posted just as I was posting. It doesn't sound like he's shooting down your ideas. He's just stating that he wouldn't recommend your PC. Nothing in your post indicates he said "No, you can't play that." Despite the DM's dire warnings or recommendations, just play your sorceror with a light crossbow or whatever (and regarding a crossbow wielding sorceror/wizard, I think its stupid for a sorceror/wizard not to carry a backup weapon around. Those spells don't last forever). As a DM, I've given advice to players about min-maxing their characters a bit or giving them insights to feats/spells/prestige classes that might fit their characters but I've never took control of a player's choice in creating a character unless it was something I've banned or will not permit in the game. If he hasn't banned it, play the character you had in mind. If he specifically "punishes" you for your choice by targetting you with all monsters or something, quit.
AmadeusMaxwell 02-08-06, 01:59 PM	He hasn't directly said "No" like you pointed out, but I know him very well (He's my brother *sigh*) I know that if I do follow through on an idea he doesn't recommend he'll whine and moan WAY worse than I am now :P Which I guess I could (and might) do...
ShadowDragon8685 02-08-06, 02:03 PM	My friend, there is only one option left. Come to your next game armed with options. Specifically, this option: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/ShadowDragon8685/crossbowhammergun.gif Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. Repeatedly. Then go find another DM. Or an online game. Or play the ToEE computer game. Even that is better than this (and that sucks, let me tell you.)
wonlee76 02-08-06, 02:15 PM	He hasn't directly said "No" like you pointed out, but I know him very well (He's my brother *sigh*) I know that if I do follow through on an idea he doesn't recommend he'll whine and moan WAY worse than I am now :P Which I guess I could (and might) do... In that case, disown your brother or DM your own game. Some DM's don't like to think outside the "box" when it comes to rules (looking over your examples of using rope in a grapple and using oil in trying to burn someone up). I've made similar rulings myself in the past. Your brother seems to be taking it 1 step further and wants to design your PC. That's a line a DM shouldn't cross. Why would he whine/moan about your choice anyways? How does that ruin things for him? This sounds like an inexperienced or slightly immature DM. Sometimes you have to DM a group of mixed characters that are not very good at certain tasks due to character design. He needs to learn to deal with it. :P
AmadeusMaxwell 02-08-06, 02:30 PM	well, he isn't the only problem either, it's also his buddy that's really bad and when I come up with an example like I said before sometimes my brother starts to say something along the lines of letting me do it until his best friend jumps in with his players hand book and proverbally beats down every idea that my brother doesn't. If it's not one it's the other. I've played in other games with rules dependent people but when one is the DM and the other one is his friend and they both tag team you.....it's really frustrating
Argon_Asimov 02-08-06, 04:04 PM	If you're working within the rules that he has provided, what does it matter whether or not he "reccomends" it? The stealthy-monk idea seemed pretty cool to me, and as long as you're paying the proper kill points, its totally legit. Just make the character and don't worry about the **** he's going to throw at you. Make friends (IRL and IC) with your party so that if and when your brother gives you a hard time in-game, they will be there to support you. Use your skills and explicitly describe the examples and predecents that allow you to use them if the DM tries to call you on it. Sooner or later, he's just going to realize that he should loosen up, or he's just going to get bored trying to harass your character. Skip the hammer-gun, its SO hard to find a new DM after you use it...
Asciiman 02-08-06, 04:06 PM	Clearly I can't be the only one here who actually sides with the DM on this one. AmadeusMaxwell, it sounds to me like you are in a rules heavy group that likes the strategy and balance that this offers. It also sounds like you don't know the rules nearly as well as the rest of the group. I just finished DMing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil last weekend after 50 sessions and a year of weekly play(simply amazing module by the way). And I have to tell you, it is a meat grinder. I had an average of one PC death every two sessions. Sometimes all but one character would get chewed up and shat back out. I'm willing to bet that when your DM says, "I don't recommend it." That is his way of saying, "I'm not changing the module to support just one PC when the rest are find and if you don't optimize your character well, you'll pay for it with MANY, MANY deaths." So sit down with your DM and change your thinking. It sounds like he'll run this module with professionalism and seriousness, which is a godsend in a DM. Sit down with him and find out where the group could use some help. What holes you can fill. The group seems front end heavy with both magic and healing covered(not only that but the traps will kill your party), but you have no skill monkey. Play a rogue with levels of fighter, and work towards being a good ranged combatant. This group has three tanks, but no ranged support or skill monkey. Work with the DM on this one, don't complain about him. Trust me, it'll be worth it in the end.
Frylord 02-08-06, 04:10 PM	Make a level 5 wizard named Pun-pun. It's been said once, but I'll say it again.
Archtyrant Terevoth 02-08-06, 07:13 PM	Shoot your DM. In the face. With. A. Hammer. Repeatedly. Then go find another DM. Or an online game. Or play the ToEE computer game. Even that is better than this (and that sucks, let me tell you.) Just being curious, but are there any DMs that you like? It seems like everytime you post in a thread, your solution is always "get a new DM". You must burn through DMs faster than Bush spends the military budget.
metamind 02-08-06, 07:33 PM	Okay, the DM is god. Second of all, I respect his desire to follow the rules 100%. If you ask me, its good hes making rules now, or else he will wind up Dming for an inexperienced party of a gargoyle fighter, half-dragon i forget, raksasha(+7LA?), a monk/necromancer who plays a lute, and a ghost-vampire bard/rust dragon rider. I SWEAR TO GOD THESE ARE THE PCS I DM FOR!
CatReactor 02-08-06, 08:59 PM	Ok. I've run a Temple campain as well, and that thing is, as stated, brutal. However, it seems to me like this DM is not accepting several VALID combinations - which says to me that he isn't really interested in your party surviving, but rather, only knows how to play one type of character. My first piece of advice is: Conspire behind his back. Talk to the other party members - explain your plight, and get their support. There's nothing that changes a DM's mind more than a united front of players telling him or her they want things run differently. My second piece of advice: Inform him of the glories of Multiclassing. Look over at places like the Character Optimization Boards, and show him that you're not going to die. Finally, if he still insists on being all retentive about this, show him this thread. That should open his eyes, at least.
ShadowDragon8685 02-08-06, 09:48 PM	Fourthly, consult the CO board for things like Pun-Pun, the Cheater, Thrice-Betrayer, and other suck things that can turn the meatgrinding blades of the RtoToEE back around on the former grinders. Grinders into Grindees... :)
The White Sorcerer 02-09-06, 12:57 AM	I've tried making a sorcerer with a light cross bow and he called me an idiot for giving a sorcerer a weapon. :uh-huh: Is your DM a complete idiot, or is he just bluffing really well?
Millennium 02-09-06, 05:25 PM	I've tried making a sorcerer with a light cross bow and he called me an idiot for giving a sorcerer a weapon. Beat him over the head with the PHB for that one; this concept is 100% RAW kosher. It's not the most "optimized" thing I've ever seen, but that's good; it's an interesting bit of flavor that I personally would like to hear more about. I've tried a tiefling monk, but he doesn't know the rules for ECL and won't let me be tiefling or anything else that requires ECL. ECL isn't core; it's an optional rule. I'm afraid I have to side with him here; it's perfectly within his rights to refuse it. I've inquired about multiple combinations of multi-classed characters and he said "I wouldn't recommend it" which is his way of saying "I'm gonna be ****** if you do" wihch leaves my only options to base races/classes. There's nothing wrong with that. I tried to make a regular human monk with rogue type skills since we don't have a rogue, but again he repeated "I wouldn't recommend it" even though I'm aware of the consequences for it and willing to accept it. Good for you. My only options that I can think of is a character only using the skills/feat/weapons made specifically for that character; I think this makes the game extremely boring. The game need not be boring with only the core books. But I think that what you're talking about as being "boring" would be doing nothing but optimizing that character out the wazoo: in other words, munchkinry. That would be boring, but that's not what you want to do, and that's good. I like the way you think; you're staying within the rules but going outside the box. Again, it's not strictly optimal, but it can lead to some of the most fun characters you'll ever use. Although Leander, my whip-wielding monk with maxed ranks in Perform (theater), probably wasn't my favorite character, I can honestly say I've never had that much fun with a concept before. Example: I tried using rope with a grapple to use as a throw weapn and trip a humanoind that was my size, his response is that you can't use rope that way. Sure there is. That's an improvised spiked chain (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#improvisedWeapons) if I've ever seen one. Make a trip attack roll with penalties for the improvised weapon (and, presumably, nonproficiency in the spiked chain) and it should work fine. I've tried pouring oil on a monster to set it on fire, he said oil isn't made for that and I can't do it. OK, he's dead wrong about this. There are rules for spreading oil on surfaces and lighting it (http://d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#oil). There are rules for things catching on fire (http://d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#catchingOnFire) from a wide variety of courses, including burning oil. Ergo, everything you wanted to do there is totally doable under RAW. I've asked if I can use an alchemist set to make special items like adding flash powder to a thunderstone so it's blinding and deafening, he said it's not a listed Item so I can't do it. Call him on that the next time he pulls out an item that's not listed in the core rulebooks. Ask whether every male NPC you come across is clean-shaven or not, and then ask how that's possible: shaving razors aren't listed in the core rulebooks. If he tries to say that they shave with daggers, call him on their not being made for that purpose, and so he can't. The problem isn't just that your DM is a rules-lawyer, but he's not even a very good rules-lawyer.
Raven113 02-09-06, 10:40 PM	I've tried making a sorcerer with a light cross bow and he called me an idiot for giving a sorcerer a weapon. What? While not optimal, this is a tried and true method. Hell, look at the picture one pg 51 of the PBH. Looks like a crossbow to me. There are damn good reasons to use a crossbow instead of spells and as a sorcerer your Dex should at least be decent. Just had to comment on that. I have to agree with most everything Millenium just said. I'd recomend you try to be civil about it though. Show him this thread if he really won't be reasoned with. Do an advanced google search for C.o.D.zilla. If you want to be creative in game, give him the rules for things you want to do. Plan tricks ahead of time. Like I'm always extolling the virtues of a bag of 30 smoke sticks, a sealed room and a gnomish rebreather. Just hand him the rules for suffocation and say "start making checks when time's run out." I think it sounds like you need to brush up on the rules though. Sit down and do a little refresher course with the PBH and maybe the DMG. You'd be amazed how many people I play with don't know that their characters can run. There should be a thread on these boards somewhere about creative uses for magic and alchemical items and where the rules are for them. The tanglefoot bag door lock (bet he'd shoot that one down), the belt of many pockets filled with halfling sized golems (not too creative, very pricy, but shocks the hell out of traitor party members).
Tyler Do'Urden 02-10-06, 08:22 AM	(He's my brother *sigh*)That about sums it up right there. Play a human fighter. You're going to have to be boring or be absent.
rykit 02-10-06, 01:48 PM	I've tried making a sorcerer with a light cross bow and he called me an idiot for giving a sorcerer a weapon. Edit: I've tried pouring oil on a monster to set it on fire, he said oil isn't made for that and I can't do it. Umhh...What??? I'm sorry I usually try to be nice and give helpful advice, but your DM is an idiot. For one he isn't following the rules, but seems to be going with the I'm in charge I'm always right DM approach. A sorc can use a crossbow. Its a simple weapon, see Sorc under weapons and armor. So apparently torch oil isn't meant to burn? Thats about all its good for. Oh and I'm pretty sure there are rules for making a flask of oil into a makshift moltov coctail. So the rules back you up. If it was just a question of finding something cool to play within the rules I have a lot of suggestions. This is a case of DM playing god and having a small world to lord over. I'd get out of that game in a hurry. Rykit
Bruunwald 02-10-06, 04:18 PM	Look, anybody who resolves an argument by calling the other person an idiot is not worth your time. If he really did that, and you're not just exaggerating, then leave. Tell him you don't need to take that. As for fixing his style to where you would like it to be, get that right out of your head. That's simply not going to happen. You're better off looking for a game where your ideas are appreciated. Now, remember, all of this is relative. Most DMs do impose limits on character generation, and with good reason. Personally, I have a munchkin who can't be trusted to create a reasonable character unless I watch him the whole time and correct his glaring "accidental" mistakes. I found over time that the more books involved in the game (particularly ones I didn't own), the more of these "accidents" occurred. Finally, for our new campaign, I gave a list of books they could use: the three core and the Completes, plus the class spell lists from BoED. No races other than the core plus teifling and aasimar. Point buy, but no single score over 19. Why did I do this? Because the munchkin would without hesitating, have put all of his points into a single stat. He can't help it. He doesn't care about anybody else's enjoyment and he doesn't care about the group. Everybody else wants the same sort of game I do: a challenging, reasonable and fun one. This guy doesn't care, so he has to have limits imposed on him. Even so, I advised them all to spread those points out, because this would be a widely divergent game full of variety. Didn't work, he dumped all the points into two stats, with a little in a third. If I hadn't said what I had, he'd have dumped it all into one. Now, I and my other players think my restrictions are reasonable. But I'm sure this guy is somewhere right now, screaming about how unreasonable I am, since I won't let him run around with a gnome wizard with an 8 in everything, but a 32 in his Intelligence. The point is, ask yourself how much of what you're saying accurately represents the DM and how unfair it really is, from a neutral perspective. How much of it is really you griping because you can't immediately get what you want? If the case is that he's really unreasonable, move on.
Otto the Bugbear 02-10-06, 07:47 PM	That about sums it up right there. Play a human fighter. You're going to have to be boring or be absent. I agree. Or, just copy one of the other characters. Just the build parts mind you -- class, race, feats, skill selection, etc. Or -- as stated in my sig -- just play the character your DM wishes he were playing. Usually not that fun, but at least he won't have room for complaint then. Well, that's not true. Being your brother, he'll still likely complain, even if he makes all the build choices for you. Cheers Otto :)
Otto the Bugbear 02-10-06, 08:02 PM	Point buy, but no single score over 19. ... But I'm sure this guy is somewhere right now, screaming about how unreasonable I am, since I won't let him run around with a gnome wizard with an 8 in everything, but a 32 in his Intelligence. Not to disagree with the rest of your post. It's reasonable enough for the situation the OP describes. But... Point buy doesn't have any provisions for increasing a score above 18 (not counting racial bonuses). That 18 costs 16 points to create (starting with a base of 8.) Using point buy, he can't have an 8 in everything, but a 32 in intelligence. Any rule that allows the purchase of ability scores above 18 (pre-racial mods), is solely a house rule. Cheers Otto :)
Man in the Funny Hat 02-10-06, 11:37 PM	I'll make anything and do anything, I just don't care anymore (about this particular game/DM) so please, tell me what I to make and how to play the character, it just has to be EXACTLY by the rules.I can only say that in close to 30 years of playing D&D I can't really even think offhand of a PC I've played that WASN'T strictly core rules - or even multi-classed! It has NEVER, EVER prevented me from having enjoyable, interesting, characters that contribute to the party efforts. Playing a PH-only, single-classed character is hardly a burden if you are as creative and imaginative a player as you claim to be. An imaginative, fun, rewarding character need not be exotic, powerful, or even particularly unique. The group sure looks like it could use a rogue. PLAY A HUMAN ROGUE. Unless you despise rogues, if you can't make up something so simple as an interesting, rewarding (at least to you) human rogue PC then I'd suggest you might have an exaggerated opinion of your roleplaying skills, or else there's something more going on here. Now your brother the DM needs to have SOME reason for shooting down all your "great character ideas", or allowing his buddy the rules-snob to do it for him. Have you ASKED him why he "wouldn't recommend" some of those ideas? Or did you possibly just get miffed and go sulk? As you have presented the situation you DON'T KNOW if he has good reason for wanting to steer you away from certain character ideas, classes, etc. You just complain that he shoots them all down, that he'll keep shooting them all down, and you may as well have a character that will NEVER DO ANYTHING. You and your DM have SERIOUS communication issues that you need to resolve now or it's apparant to me that you're going to be bound and determined to NOT HAVE FUN in his game. And that means you're going to be a fun sponge for everyone else at the table as well. And harsh as it may seem, that makes you exactly the kind of player that you yourself would almost certainly NOT want to have to deal with. Maybe everything you complain about your brother the DM is eminently justified. I don't know - and nobody can without more than just a couple of posts from one side of the discussion. But either way it sure seems to me that you have bigger problems here than just creating a PC that will fit in your over-controlling DM's world. You might want to think about that.
smoker 02-10-06, 11:44 PM	Find a mature DM.
deafbymetal 02-11-06, 12:57 AM	See your brother without his "buddy" being there. You have stated that your brother is the DM, so it's only his input that matters. Not sure how you guys get along (my brother and I fought like Monday Night RAW until we stopped living in the same house :D). If your brother is a reasonable type of guy with whom you have a good relationship with, sit him down and talk with him. Ask him to help you design a character you can both live with. Tell him your concerns, just as you've told us! A major part of D&D is the interaction with other people, and learning how to build mature relationships with them. It's a great teacher of compromise, and learning to see thing from a different perspective. The actual game is only half of it's appeal! On the other hand, if your brother is a jack@ss, and his buddy is d!ck #1, screw them and go find another game. But first approach the two of them with a blank character sheet and tell them you want them to design your character for you, your having to hard a time coming up with something that's "acceptable". Now mind you, this will take some good "roleplaying" to pull off, but it's good practice! Now, after they have the character all made up (make sure you ask lots of questions along the way- remember, they are "rules lawyers" and will likely relish the chance to flaunt their superior knowledge to a lowly "player" like you)! Then, when it's game night, just keep asking them what to do. Pass them notes, take them in the other room (remember, they know what to do in every instance- they know "all" the rules!), keep asking for each oddball situation. Then, when you can't take it any longer (or when you feel they are on to you), just hand one of them the dice and your character sheet and tell them you don't feel like playing the character they "recommend" any more, but feel free to let you know when you can play "your" character. Then walk out the door without another word. Might not be the mature thing to do, but at least you'll have fun for once.
Millennium 02-11-06, 09:03 AM	Not to disagree with the rest of your post. It's reasonable enough for the situation the OP describes. But... Point buy doesn't have any provisions for increasing a score above 18 (not counting racial bonuses). That 18 costs 16 points to create (starting with a base of 8.) Using point buy, he can't have an 8 in everything, but a 32 in intelligence. Any rule that allows the purchase of ability scores above 18 (pre-racial mods), is solely a house rule.) That depends on how you look at it. Like many things in D&D, the point-buy rules follow a fairly simple mathematical progression: Start the score at 8. Increasing an ability score by 1 costs either 1 point or (desired score's ability modifier - 1), whichever is greater. This cost is cumilative, which is why raising a score to 18 costs 16 points instead of only three. If you keep to this progression, then a score of 19 costs 19 points, a score of 20 costs 23 points, and a score of 21 would cost 27 points (which you can't do with a 25-point buy).
Millennium 02-11-06, 09:09 AM	As for fixing his style to where you would like it to be, get that right out of your head. That's simply not going to happen. You're better off looking for a game where your ideas are appreciated. Not many people here are arguing that the DM should change his style, and neither am I. If he wants to stick to the core books, then that's entirely his prerogative. But he's not even familiar enough with the core books to do that. In one of my earlier posts in this thread, I point out several instances where the DM insists that the player can't do something when in fact it's right in the RAW.
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-11-06, 11:31 AM	But I'm sure this guy is somewhere right now, screaming about how unreasonable I am, since I won't let him run around with a gnome wizard with an 8 in everything, but a 32 in his Intelligence. One solution is simply to allow his characters to die - anyone with a -1 on all three saves will do so sooner or later. His new characters can start at level 1.
Otto the Bugbear 02-12-06, 09:49 AM	That depends on how you look at it. Like many things in D&D, the point-buy rules follow a fairly simple mathematical progression: Start the score at 8. Increasing an ability score by 1 costs either 1 point or (desired score's ability modifier - 1), whichever is greater. This cost is cumilative, which is why raising a score to 18 costs 16 points instead of only three. If you keep to this progression, then a score of 19 costs 19 points, a score of 20 costs 23 points, and a score of 21 would cost 27 points (which you can't do with a 25-point buy). And this, as I stated in my last sentence, is a house-rule. Nothing wrong with house rules, I use quite a few of them. Just calling a horse a horse and calling a house-rule a house-rule. Cheers Otto :)
Sir Todd 02-12-06, 11:59 AM	I may be able to offer advice. First, this is a number of seperate problems presented as one. Situationally this looks like sibling rivalry. It happens in every home with more than one child. Quitting his game is not going to stop the verbal sparing. And I am certain there are things you do to him as well outside or inside the game. Eventually you both will grow out of this and be good friends. Just laugh and roll with it. It may be hard to do, but it should reduce the sting or even reduce the sparing. The next issue is setting limits on character creation. This GM is saying 'no' to character options he poorly understands. This is GOOD. If he doesn't like or understand LA or ECL then by all means restrict it. You will have a better game if the GM understands everything that lives in his game. The next issue seems to be his interfereing with your creativity, by 'not recomending' your (perfectly legal) concepts in order to discourage you. This is BAD. It takes the fun out of your character creation. Sure you may get killed because you failed to anticipate a shortcoming of your build... but this is how we learn. Failure teaches us a lot. Telling him to stop will probably only make it worse (sibling rivalry again). So your best option here is to flatly ignore him. Play what you want and if you die... then just make a new character and learn from your mistakes. The last issue is his on the spot rulings on things you try. This is, for better or worse, the job of a GM. He clearly only understands the rules to a certain point. So don't get upset if he says no to an idea. Nobody is perfect. And he will learn as a GM by failing and then trying to do better next time. There are a lot of emotional responses in this thread. Just try not to get too upset and play or not play his game as you wish. just try not to quit for the wrong reasons.