Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Noseboy713 02-02-05, 12:45 AM	Ok I need opinions here. My character is a level 2 rogue, while staying at a monestary over night we were invited to a feast. The monestary was the yellow rose from the forgoten realms campaign setting. After the feast I kinda ended up urinating in one of the room's travlers stay in. The headmaster (who is a level 70 character acording to the DM) then placed a Geas upon me to donate 1,000,000 gold pieces to the monastary. Acording to the DM to satisfy this I must donate 50% of all the gold I get until I have met the total. In my opinion all of this is blown completely out of porportion. Booth the level 70 headmaster and the 1,000,000 gold pieces. May I have your opinions.
Aeromus 02-02-05, 12:48 AM	So he got you drunk..... by requiring you to make saves? Then he said "you pee on the wall..." -- because he got you drunk? If he did that, slap him with the PHB, that's not cool at all he may as well play the game by himself. If on the otherhand.. you said "I get drunk...as *&^&.." then said .."My char hates monks.. I urinate on the wall those filthy bastages.." Then you need to pay up the 1 million, and get over it.
Noseboy713 02-02-05, 12:54 AM	ok so I peed in the bed of one of the other party members because he openly stated he hated me upon me first meeting him. might i say with no reason and despite me rolling a 21 diplomacy to improve my first impression. I was not drunk
James Wildspell 02-02-05, 12:55 AM	I have to agree to both points.
Snommelp 02-02-05, 01:10 AM	ok so I peed in the bed of one of the other party members because he openly stated he hated me upon me first meeting him. might i say with no reason and despite me rolling a 21 diplomacy to improve my first impression. I was not drunk Firstly, Diplomacy only works on NPCs. You can't force other PCs to like you, because of the problems it could cause. Secondly: look at it from the DM's point of view. One player has said that his character hates another player's character. The second player responds by having his character childishly ruin the first player's bed. This looks like a recipe for disaster, and the DM needs to try to prevent the two of you from destroying the game and, more importantly, each other.
TheMercYouForgot 02-02-05, 01:54 AM	:OMG!: :banghead: ... For a moment, I had no words to add to this. But being the logical kind of person I am, let us take a moment to analyze the situation.. shall we? Forgotten Realms, Yellow Rose.. lemme go check my FRCS. ... Okay, I see your DM has a slightly different impression of the situation. Let's break this down, point by point, and you might be able to change his mind on this one. Or at least make fun of him infront of everyone else and shame him for being such a meanie-face. So you're in the Earthspur Mountains of Damara then? If not then you're DM rule 0'd a new Monastary into existance, his right, but let's assume that's where you are. You're staying with Monks of Illmater. Let's go check how they might be feeling about you. Now, Illmater is the The Crying God. This guy is all about easing the suffering of others. Slow to wrath. Etc etc. I would type out the dogma but that's probably a no-no cause I don't have permission. But based on what I've read? The bed you peed in? One of the monks would have changed the sheets (or not) and slept in it and given the guy a fresh bed while asking him why he doesn't like you. Now, if you're not staying with Monks of Ilmater then your DM needs to let you know that it's the *The* Monastery of the Yellow Rose you're in. (And yes the book does state there is only the one) A level 70? That's different. Tell him for starters he's not playing Everquest and the guy doesn't have a Black Headband. ;) Did you know that Ilmater himself is only Level 40 for class levels. Sure he has Divine Ranking but he's still *only* level 40. So this Headmaster has 30 more levels than Ilmater? That's a pretty neat trick. Also ask him to consider this.. The XP Chart stops at 30 and gives the math to go further. I invite you to show it to him and ask him where this guy found the 435,000xp for level 30 much less the rest of the xp to make it to 70. I guess I'll look at the Geas issue first. He cast Geas on you? Neat trick. No really, a monk with spells? Considering he can only freely Multiclass using Ranger or Shadowdancer. Now what does this mean? It means that he can't raise his monk level again after taking levels of anything that isn't those two or a PrC. I know, your DM could counter with... Um, he was a Cleric for the needed levels then went monk! Now if he does this? Then by Geas'ing you? He needs to deal with violating his own dogma for doing something so not in character for Ilmater. Now he could have been a Wizard, or a Bard before hand and done this too you, but it still goes against his deity'd dogma, something he should theoretically hold near and dear. Also, where did he get the 10 minutes to cast it on you? He starts chanting, you start running. ;) And then finally, Mr I hate you. Kill him with kindness. No really, rise above him. Do everything in your power to be nice to him. Kill him with kindness. Allow him to lead. And when the time is right? Push him off a cliff. ;) Now, here's an important juncture to consider. 1) War with the DM 2) Beating him on this one How to do them. 1) Show him everything I've shown you. If he disagrees with the RAW? Hand him a highlighter and give him a choice. "Highlight everything that still applies, or highlight the things you've Rule 0'd to suit yourself... whichever is easier." And then remind him in the nicest voice possible that you just don't want to be confused about the content as you know it. 2) Let it stand, but show him where under Lesser Geas that it's up to "YOU" how you want to take the quest. The guy wants 1,000,000 gold. And you'll go get it. And you'll donate it. In one lump sum. Until you have the 1,000,000 gold you'll work every day to increasing your wealth so you can bring it all back. Oh yeah, and feel free to go L-E, rip off everyone, and if you even make 1gp in a day, you're 1gp closer. You're in no rush. You could die and not be done. Considering your PC wealth won't hit 1,000,000 until EPIC? Yeah, most likely. Oh yeah, also feel free to Multi-class into Wizard, learn Nystul's Magic Aura, Identify, and get to the magic items first. Make stuff up, change the aura's, do whatever you need to do. Why? Because a Paragon of Goodness (that being a level 70) Saddled you with this quest. And now? You're going to do it. And you're going to win. No matter what it takes. And thus you can create the irony of a good/neutral aligned person unleashing an unholy terror upon the realms. And this is why Rule 0 is bad when used wrong. I hope this entertained, helped, or something positive can come of this. No, I'm not a diplomatic person. I feel that this is meant to be done for fun. Not that is a chance to screw up and screw with one of the better systems on the market. Have a nice day, and happier gaming! - The Merc You Forgot
Max Overload 02-02-05, 02:44 AM	:weep: Sorry, but DM'ing that bad makes me cry. It's not that you didn't do something, fairly retarded. It's just that it was in response to a previous retarded act ("I hate you"), and it was responded to be a heinously retarded act. I'd reccomend Vow of Poverty as fast as you can afford it, then make him suffer. Sidetrack and Log jam his plots as much as you can, but be wary of pushing too hard. You know he's willing to nail you to a wall. If he senses you're being a pain for the sake of being a pain, you'll find the entire XP value of another Diefic NPC falling on you from a great height. Alternatly, figure out what PC #1 had a problem with you about, solve it. Then admit to being a 'tard and get the whole thing blotted out with Liquid Reality™, by a DM willing to forgive. (Not that you should forget you are dealing with a DM willing to drop a Deity on you for annoying him.)
Aeromus 02-02-05, 05:30 AM	Don't screw with the DM's game... just say..."Ok this PC retires to earn 1 million gold...I'll be an XXXXX next." DM can't force you to play that char... but he can boot you from the game...so be careful.
Fasius 02-02-05, 05:36 AM	2) Beating him on this one 2) Let it stand, but show him where under Lesser Geas that it's up to "YOU" how you want to take the quest. The guy wants 1,000,000 gold. And you'll go get it. And you'll donate it. In one lump sum. Until you have the 1,000,000 gold you'll work every day to increasing your wealth so you can bring it all back. Oh yeah, and feel free to go L-E, rip off everyone, and if you even make 1gp in a day, you're 1gp closer. You're in no rush. You could die and not be done. Considering your PC wealth won't hit 1,000,000 until EPIC? Yeah, most likely. Oh yeah, also feel free to Multi-class into Wizard, learn Nystul's Magic Aura, Identify, and get to the magic items first. Make stuff up, change the aura's, do whatever you need to do. Why? Because a Paragon of Goodness (that being a level 70) Saddled you with this quest. And now? You're going to do it. And you're going to win. No matter what it takes. And thus you can create the irony of a good/neutral aligned person unleashing an unholy terror upon the realms. :D Nice one.
Callista 02-02-05, 06:50 AM	Heh... A level 70 NPC?!! I mean, come on... a "mere" level 20 would have sufficed. And a million gold is too much--10,000 is enough. And on top of that... *sigh* *points at posts above* They've made the points already. I don't need to reiterate them. Take Vow of Poverty. Donate everything to the monastery. Laugh in your DM's face (well, not really... he'll probably drop the tarrasque on you or something.) But yeah... if you're only at 50% of the power level of the rest of the PCs in your party, you'll need to compensate somehow. VoP. And, BTW, your DM is on a serious power trip.
Draco Strang 02-02-05, 12:34 PM	This is just ridiculous. You need to either take that vow of poverty (which could be cool if you play it right) or just tell the DM that you're sorry for ******* all over the bed, and you wanna go back to how it was, you'll behave. All the DM has to do is say "You wake up with the worst hangover ever, and a dream about peeing all over your hosts bed, meeting with the most powerful monk anyone has ever imagined, and then having to pay a million gp to compensate for it. Aren't you glad it was just a dream?" But if you're both gonna be weiners about it, then have fun being poor and paying homage to someone half again as powerful as Moradin.
Evil Wizard 02-02-05, 01:15 PM	That monk won't see a red cent. A Limited Wish spell from a level 13 wizard will run 2410 gold by the PHB. That's not a hard sum to acquire, especially if your friends loan you some money, and there are definitely plenty of high level wizards in FR. Limited Wish will break a Geas with no caster level check required, so your DM is making stuff up if he starts in with any "he's level 70" nonsense. If he wanted an unbreakable Geas, he should have used an epic spell instead of a paltry level 6 charm. If the wizard gets nosy and asks who Geased you, lie. Or find a neutral wizard with few scruples and heavily bribe him. Or find an evil wizard who won't care as long as the price is right. Meanwhile, instead of regularly tithing to the monastary, just hoard the 50% someplace safe. Nothing in the Geas says you have to drop everything and run back every time you earn money. In fact, such a stipulation would be unreasonable. As long as you've got a big treasure hoard that's 50% of your earnings, earmarked for the monastary, you're fine. And then when the Geas is broken, it's all yours again.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-02-05, 02:17 PM	ok so I peed in the bed of one of the other party members because he openly stated he hated me upon me first meeting him. might i say with no reason and despite me rolling a 21 diplomacy to improve my first impression. I was not drunk First, the level 70 thinghy is ridiculous, but ultimately unimportant. Would you have been able to resist a level 40geas? No. A level 20? No. Even if the level is way too high, it doesn't change the end effect. You still got a geas. also, where is it written the DM has to answer truthfully to such ******** questions as : what level is this NPC? I never answer the truth to that. no way the PC know. Second, in my games, if you had urinated on another PC (or NPC, for that matter) or even on his bed as a way to get "revenge" because he said he didn't like you, you'd be booted from the campain. I prefer mature players, you see. Third, Rolling diplomacy vs players is boring. role-play it out. convince me. Yes, it's unfair for those who are not good with words. But it's more fun to role-play it out than to roll-play it out (tired cliché, but...). Fourth, You commited an immature, childish act. What would your PC has done if a level 0 commoner had done the same thing in the PC's manor? chances are, he would have died a creative death. You need to remember that every action you make will have consequences.
Fanatic-Templar 02-02-05, 03:04 PM	TheMercYouForgot, you are one evil, brillant bastard. If you ever come to the Eastern Townships, you're welcome at my table anytime :D. And I have nothing else to say, it's all been said already. And when will that monk be elected god?
Aluroon 02-02-05, 04:38 PM	The Dm's got a few problums... -Said level 70 monk is (as has been said) more then 40 levels above his god. he is several levels above the most powerful gods. -Somewhere (might just be dicefreaks), I believe it is mentioned that Mortals Cap out at level 49. -Said Monk is conflicting with his deitys believes, the belives he is supposed to promote and abide by. -As said, a monk who can cast spells, neat trick! -1,000,000 gold is unreasonable. -Said monk is twice as powerful as El, and more then twice as powerful then the Seven Sisters. (well, atleast according to offical, I use a slightly different set of stats (Simbuls in her 30's with Incantatar/Sorcerer). -Said dm should have his DMG taken away. Aluroon
Vanigo 02-02-05, 04:58 PM	I use a slightly different set of stats (Simbuls in her 30's with Incantatar/Sorcerer) The Simbul is an Incantatar?
Snommelp 02-02-05, 05:18 PM	Good to see you again, Mr. Veggie! You don't mind if I call you Mr. Veggie, do you? First, the level 70 thinghy is ridiculous, but ultimately unimportant. Would you have been able to resist a level 40geas? No. A level 20? No. Even if the level is way too high, it doesn't change the end effect. You still got a geas. also, where is it written the DM has to answer truthfully to such ******** questions as : what level is this NPC? I never answer the truth to that. no way the PC know. I completely and totally concur. It's been too long since I've played, but with my last DM, if I had asked what level a PC was he would have responded with "high enough." Second, in my games, if you had urinated on another PC (or NPC, for that matter) or even on his bed as a way to get "revenge" because he said he didn't like you, you'd be booted from the campain. I prefer mature players, you see. Once again we agree. This DM was being lenient allowing these two players to stay (because let us not forget that both were acting rather immature). Third, Rolling diplomacy vs players is boring. role-play it out. convince me. Yes, it's unfair for those who are not good with words. But it's more fun to role-play it out than to roll-play it out (tired cliché, but...). Not only is rolling diplomacy vs. other players boring, going strictly by the core rules it's not possible. Diplomacy only effects NPCs. Fourth, You commited an immature, childish act. What would your PC has done if a level 0 commoner had done the same thing in the PC's manor? chances are, he would have died a creative death. You need to remember that every action you make will have consequences. It is good to be agreeing with you, Mr. Veggie. Especially considering that a majority of the people posting here are quick to attack the DM. I'm guessing that most of the other posters have never DMed or played with problem players.
Kainy 02-02-05, 05:18 PM	I have only one thing to say: "Your DM needs to be shot. In the head. With a hammer."
delroland 02-02-05, 05:28 PM	1) Long term Geas spells now have a limited duration of one day per caster level, according to 3.5 DnD. 2) Getting Limited Wish cast costs 2410 gp, and Miracle is 1530 gp, either one of which is a whole lot cheaper than 1,000,000 gp. Heck, a remove curse by a level 72 cleric would only be 2160 gp!
Vanigo 02-02-05, 05:57 PM	1) Long term Geas spells now have a limited duration of one day per caster level, according to 3.5 DnD. No, that's for things that the subject can't complete through their own actions, like "guard this door". Since this geas can be completed, it lasts until it is.
delroland 02-02-05, 06:23 PM	No, that's for things that the subject can't complete through their own actions, like "guard this door". Since this geas can be completed, it lasts until it is. Unless the spell is different in the PHB from what it is in the SRD, you are wrong. Geas states: "As Lesser Geas, except: blah blah blah" Nowhere in the text does it say anything different as far as the duration goes, and the duration of Lesser Geas is "One day per caster level or until discharged."
TheMercYouForgot 02-02-05, 06:50 PM	Fanatic-Templar said in a manner which made me smile..TheMercYouForgot, you are one evil, brillant bastard. If you ever come to the Eastern Townships, you're welcome at my table anytime. How could I not respond with a :w00t: to that? Thank you. Sadly I hardly leave the house, much less town, but I digress. Now, to business. Limited Wish will indeed break the Geas without a caster level check. Didn't notice that the first time. I'll have to remember that. :plotting: Originally Posted by Ze_Mighty_Vegetable First, the level 70 thinghy is ridiculous, but ultimately unimportant. Would you have been able to resist a level 40geas? No. A level 20? No. Even if the level is way too high, it doesn't change the end effect. You still got a geas. also, where is it written the DM has to answer truthfully to such ******** questions as : what level is this NPC? I never answer the truth to that. no way the PC know. It's still important because he's a *monk* with *spells* and there is a very good question of how he got them. As for the level of the Geaser? It is unimportant from the aspect that you *don't get a save*. But the DM clearly skipped over the 10 minute casting time. Or just grabbed him, tied him to a chair, and geased him from there. As for what level the guy is and there being no way to know? Let's do some extrapolations here. Should be fun! He's the head of the Monastary, a Monsastary which is the only one for it's Order, and he's trained who knows how many monks. These monks might actually say something to other monks of like temperment to get them to convert. This is called word of mouth. This is further spread by the a legion of bards and other entertainers trying to make some money. What do they sing about you ask? Why how this guy got to level *70* Now, even if we drop him to say, 40? He still has more class levels than most of the Epic NPCs in the ELH. You know how many people have heard of those people? That's right, all of them. They might not know details, but they know. Word travels. Now does he have the Leadership Feat? Epic Leadership? Epic Reputation? If he's the anchor of the Monastary I'm sure he has at least one of those. And you know what this does? That's right, it makes *more* word of mouth. Sure, you can't know what level they are exactly, but you can ballpark them. In this case the DM could answer with simply, "He has more levels than any God in your Faiths and Pantheons book!" And if we drop him to level 40? "He has just as many total levels as Ilmater himself!" :eek: Originally Posted by Ze_Mighty_Vegetable Second, in my games, if you had urinated on another PC (or NPC, for that matter) or even on his bed as a way to get "revenge" because he said he didn't like you, you'd be booted from the campain. I prefer mature players, you see. Technically it was stated as "he hated me upon first seeing me." To be brutally honest? I would have the horse do it. :P You know why? Because that would have been my impulse move. But as I said I would have most likely killed him with kindness and then shoved him off a cliff. Sure, it's not mature, but it's an answer to someone who "hates" me from an IC perspective. And um, just FYI? We're a bunch of adults, gathered around a table, playing 'Let's Pretend.' We can't exactly cling to that maturity card like we're drowning in the ocean and it's a life preserver, can we? :rofl: Now, as for the diplomacy thing? If something is unfair to a player based upon out of game merit? (Outside of player cleverness and the need for a moment to form a witicism?) It should be fudged for the sake of good play. At least allowing a, "Hello, my name is Gobalt Coldhands, I am a churgeon by hobby and a Wizard by trade!" 'And now I make idle chit chat to cement my first impression. I rolled a total of 23, I think I found a topic he liked. What was it?' Because who wants to roleplay the "How's the weather?" conversations. :noway: Originally Posted by Ze_Mighty_Vegetable Fourth, You commited an immature, childish act. What would your PC has done if a level 0 commoner had done the same thing in the PC's manor? chances are, he would have died a creative death. You need to remember that every action you make will have consequences. ...Level 0 Commoner? You mean a child? Commoners have levels now. A creative death? Okay, we're all C-E or perhaps C-S now? And even if it was a commoner? I take out my Prestidigitation Item (Never leave home without it) And clean the bed with that. It's some urine. It's not the end of the world or a 1million gold offence. And certainly wouldn't call for the death penalty. And who knows, maybe the C-E guy would feel the commoner had moxy and ask him to join his team at Evil C&C. ..... Yes, I "attacked" the DM who decided to make the Monk level 70. Yes I suggested ways for the player to get back at the DM. And yes, I run for problem players. 3 of my 4 players are "Problem" players. Then again I'm a Misfit and a problem player too so we're all a match made in Hel, Sweden. :twitch: And I have tried to arm Noseboy713 because he needs a way to make this fun for him even though he's up against some pretty heavy odds. I wish him again the best of luck. Have a nice day folks. :pint: - The Merc You Forgot
Snommelp 02-02-05, 07:03 PM	1) Wonderful, Merc. Just wonderful. While you are arming Noseboy in order to turn his game into Noseboy vs. the DM (and anyone else), you're also arming him to completely and totally ruin the game for everyone else. Yes, Noseboy should have fun, but everyone else should be having fun too. What you're setting him up for is eventual expulsion from his game. 2) The level of the monk is not important, except to say that if he is epic level he could easily have some custom feat that allows him to cast geas quickly, as well as some cross-class action. 3) Yes, we're a bunch of adults playing pretend. That doesn't mean we should all behave like five-year-old children. That's what Ze_Mighty_Vegetable meant about maturity. 4) As I have said twice before, Diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. Furthermore, attempting to use such a skill on a PC leads to bad player relations. 5) Look beyond the act of peeing, Merc. This isn't about a soiled bed, this is about two players who look like they will be at each other's throats for the rest of the game. The DM reacted. I'm not going to fault him for that.
Vanigo 02-02-05, 07:21 PM	Unless the spell is different in the PHB from what it is in the SRD, you are wrong. Geas states: "As Lesser Geas, except: blah blah blah" Nowhere in the text does it say anything different as far as the duration goes, and the duration of Lesser Geas is "One day per caster level or until discharged." Read lesser geas more closely. Here's the relevant section: ...The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is compeleted, no matter how long it takes. If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions (such as "Wait here" or "Defend this area against attack"), the spell remains in effect fr a maximum of one day per caster level... There are two separate durations for the different types of geas. In the case of an open-ended geas, the duration is one day/level, and in a non-open-ended geas the duration is "until discharged".
trapspringer 02-02-05, 08:33 PM	TheMercYouForgot, your views are clearly that of a player. There is nothing wrong with this, per say, but they are narrow in this application. It is up to a DM to revise, rewrite, or ignore anything in a campaign settng. It is his world based on the one from the setting. If one of my players came to me with an Ebberron book and said, "Lady Gailea isn't the head of the northern spire, it is Lord Mitna." I would inform them that no, Lady Galia has been serving as the active representative of the northern spire for the past four and one half years, is loved by the people, and is rumored to dabble in slave trade. There never was, is not, and likely will not be a Lord Mitna on the northern spire (I know there are know such places or people in sharn, btw). Why, you might ask. Because it is MY WORLD. I use it as a tool to move the adventure along and to challenge the players minds. I encourage them to think creatively by cutting off metagaming at the source, the books. Unless this player's toon had knowledge: religion out the as., then he would not know that this diety is a god of kindness and pity. And so long as this god is consistantly morally lax in this world, then there is no problem. Inconsistency is the only thing that would be in error when it comes to a campaign setting. So, to the OP, get the geas busted. Quickly. when you find a wizard who can cast the spell, ask if you can go on a quest, donating your share of the spoils to the wizard, in leu of payment. This will give the DM a built in plot hook, something he will likely appreciate (so long as you don't insist on running off right away). Despite what everyone else says, I think urinating on the bed of a player who declares he hates you seems a bit unnatural, but I got no problems with it.
Capt. Pixel 02-02-05, 10:25 PM	I'd have let the God in question curse the errant PC with a narrow urethra. :rolleyes:
Bane 02-03-05, 12:52 AM	I would have settled this by letting the two PC's in question start to beat on each other. After they have each drawn blood, the monk rushes in, tells them that bloodshed is not allowed on the monestary grounds, and does massive sundering action on the weapons used. After having watched the monk shatter their weaponry and having been told to stop (all in game), the players should take the time to realize that they've been idiots. Have the monk warn them that further hostilities of any kind will result in severe consequences. If either of them even attempt to insinuate nasty things about the other, remember that Sense Motive is based on Wisdom, and in a monastary, wisdom is rarely lacking. Then you throw the problem PC's out on their butts, way the hell out in the middle of nowhere. Now they have to work together to get back to civilization, because the monastary isn't letting them back in. Either they'll manage, and probably get over their differences, or they won't manage, and you can tell them that you'll call them when they need to start showing up for sessions again. But this is all advice for the DM. As a PC, you need to chill out. The monk most likely wasn't a level 70 NPC. As a DM, I know that I've said things when I'm irritated that weren't true, and would be taken back as soon as I calmed down and thought about what I said. The monk was, however, better than you in just about every way imaginable. You may have had a better charisma, but I doubt that there's any other way that you could exceed the abilities of one who has devoted his life to self-perfection. And if he's going to be enforcing a 'no bloodshed' rule while you're brawling with another PC simply because 'he didn't like you', I would call the monk a better person than your character. If you don't like it, realize that if you press the matter, there are myriad ways for the monks to cause you pain, suffering, and death without spilling a drop of your blood.
delroland 02-03-05, 11:19 AM	If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions (such as "Wait here" or "Defend this area against attack"), the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level... Getting one million gold pieces, IMO, qualifies as such, unless this is a Monty Haul campaign, or one that frequently gets players into epic levels. Consider that a 20th level character has 760,000 gp in equipment. That means that if the character liquidates all of his assets, he has 380,000 gp. Also, for the record, 1,000,000 gp weighs 20,000 lbs, which is far more than the character can carry, so technically he cannot complete the task through his own actions.
Damien_Hiro 02-03-05, 11:33 AM	First of all, the player versus player crap needs to be cut out right away. That is the sort of thing ruins games. There is no excuse for it and it should not be tolerated by anyone in the game. If the DM deemed that is a fit punishment, then you should roll with the punches. If it prevents the PC's from fighting each other, then I do not see how it can be seen as a powertripping DM. I would be very upset having to deal with that sort of nonsense from another player during my hobby. And if I was another player in the group, I would have voted you off the island or hurt your feelings by revealing some dark secret of yours, like your once played a part in a failed Broadway musical, and you liked it!
Vanigo 02-03-05, 03:47 PM	Getting one million gold pieces, IMO, qualifies as such, unless this is a Monty Haul campaign, or one that frequently gets players into epic levels. Consider that a 20th level character has 760,000 gp in equipment. That means that if the character liquidates all of his assets, he has 380,000 gp.Sure, it's practically impossible, but it can (in theory) be completed, so the duration is unlimited. Also, for the record, 1,000,000 gp weighs 20,000 lbs, which is far more than the character can carry, so technically he cannot complete the task through his own actions. Hey, no one said he had to bring it all at once. Or without a wagon. Or maybe a wagon full of portable holes
Infusco von Kempelen 02-03-05, 04:11 PM	Afterall, it's supposed to be *possible* not *practical*.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-03-05, 06:08 PM	It's still important because he's a *monk* with *spells* and there is a very good question of how he got them. As for the level of the Geaser? It is unimportant from the aspect that you *don't get a save*. But the DM clearly skipped over the 10 minute casting time. Or just grabbed him, tied him to a chair, and geased him from there. As for what level the guy is and there being no way to know? Let's do some extrapolations here. Should be fun! Is the DM bound by the existing spells? Can't his NPC have access to a slightly difrent spell, requiring less casting time? a monk casting spells? Sacred Fist can. also, if a DM decide HIS monk know a technique to cast spells, then said monk know a technique to cast spells. Or he could have used a wand. The point is, a DM doesn't have to justify any events to his players. HE's telling the story, not the players. He's the head of the Monastary, a Monsastary which is the only one for it's Order, and he's trained who knows how many monks. These monks might actually say something to other monks of like temperment to get them to convert. This is called word of mouth. This is further spread by the a legion of bards and other entertainers trying to make some money. What do they sing about you ask? Why how this guy got to level *70* Now, even if we drop him to say, 40? He still has more class levels than most of the Epic NPCs in the ELH. You know how many people have heard of those people? That's right, all of them. They might not know details, but they know. Word travels. Now does he have the Leadership Feat? Epic Leadership? Epic Reputation? If he's the anchor of the Monastary I'm sure he has at least one of those. And you know what this does? That's right, it makes *more* word of mouth. Sure, you can't know what level they are exactly, but you can ballpark them. In this case the DM could answer with simply, "He has more levels than any God in your Faiths and Pantheons book!" And if we drop him to level 40? "He has just as many total levels as Ilmater himself!" :eek: So, if I decide Illmater got 100 levels, I would be cheating :) Seriously, even giving stats to gods is a dumb act. come on, we can now say: My god's stronger than yours. and I can prove it! dumb idea... If the king has a honor gard of incredibly loyal paladins, does he HAVE to have the leadership feat? nope. not at all. Story reason. Technically it was stated as "he hated me upon first seeing me." To be brutally honest? I would have the horse do it. :P You know why? Because that would have been my impulse move. But as I said I would have most likely killed him with kindness and then shoved him off a cliff. Sure, it's not mature, but it's an answer to someone who "hates" me from an IC perspective. And um, just FYI? I rest my case. We're a bunch of adults, gathered around a table, playing 'Let's Pretend.' We can't exactly cling to that maturity card like we're drowning in the ocean and it's a life preserver, can we? :rofl: True. But I stand by what I said. I prefer MATURE players. It's a question of taste. I ceased to find anything funny in the word **** a long time ago. But I understand some didn't finish that phase... Now, as for the diplomacy thing? If something is unfair to a player based upon out of game merit? (Outside of player cleverness and the need for a moment to form a witicism?) It should be fudged for the sake of good play. Because who wants to roleplay the "How's the weather?" conversations. :noway: Player's cleverness... that wouldn't have anything to do with the PC'S INTELLIGENCE, now would it... no, of course not... not the same as social abilities... :D "for the sake of good play". to each his own. I prefer to hear my friend try to convince me not to waste the thief instead of hearing him say: I rolled 45 in diplomacy. Put the thief down. As for the "how's the weather", did I say you have to roleplay EVERYTHING? no. Just the important bits. It's called common sense.
Bringslite 02-03-05, 06:51 PM	Yoiu acted immaturly, impulsivly, and destructivly in you DMs game. To say it was a retarded act is an understatement. Those monks took you in and gave you shelter for the night and you repay them with this? You ****** the DM off obviously and got a severe punishment as return on your investment. From the level of the DM response it sounds like an immature over the top reponse to an immature over the top act. An over all immature game. Make a new character with a new attitude. Maybe one with better potty training? I mean what's the deal? Your response to PC conflict and bored Character whim is to **** on people's beds? Too wierd. :rolleyes:
Fanatic-Templar 02-03-05, 07:50 PM	Well, one immature reaction to an immature action got an immature punishment from the ... DM. Is this a newbie group by any chance? I remember when I was a newbie DM setting a half-god blacksmith because one of my players wanted to steal something from the armoury. Ironically, he was a 12th level fighter half-god with no special bonuses in AD&D... Anyway, what kind of stupid player says "I hate you" to someone he's never met, for no specific reason? What childish reaction is it to **** on his bed? It's not even his bed, it's the monks! And what kind of punishment is a supergod's geas spell of unreasonable power for an offense that wouldn't even get you hanged? Why are we blaming one memeber of the group when all three behaved like idiots?
Snommelp 02-03-05, 08:25 PM	Why are we blaming one memeber of the group when all three behaved like idiots? Well spoken. For my part, I was blaming the players because at the time there was plenty of DM bashing going around.
Janusunaj 02-03-05, 09:49 PM	My first response was to turn both of the PC's into females. However I see the point that the DM was acting strange too.
Lord Schpungus 02-03-05, 10:29 PM	HE's telling the story, not the players. This I have to object to. You stray too far down that line of thinking and you get to 'Your character says this, and then does this' territory. It's a social contract. The DM makes up surprises and enemies, and you get to decide how your character acts in response to these. You tell the story TOGETHER. The DM has slightly more control than the players, but only slightly more. EDIT: Note that this doesn't give anyone, player or Referee, excuse to be an idiot. All three of you are to blame there. I would suggest discussing it and perhaps retrogaming that out for the sake of 'we were all being dumb'.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-03-05, 10:47 PM	This I have to object to. You stray too far down that line of thinking and you get to 'Your character says this, and then does this' territory. It's a social contract. The DM makes up surprises and enemies, and you get to decide how your character acts in response to these. You tell the story TOGETHER. The DM has slightly more control than the players, but only slightly more. EDIT: Note that this doesn't give anyone, player or Referee, excuse to be an idiot. All three of you are to blame there. I would suggest discussing it and perhaps retrogaming that out for the sake of 'we were all being dumb'. You're right. Rule 0 got the unspoken annexe, rule 0.1: The DM shall make the game fun and fair. You have to apply common sense. Maybe they should include that in the PHB... Common sense...
Snommelp 02-04-05, 12:11 AM	Common Sense? What's that? Some sort of cleric feat? :P
Vanigo 02-04-05, 12:56 AM	Common Sense? What's that? Some sort of cleric feat? :P No, it's a divination spell. Sometimes it's refered to as detect obvious.
delroland 02-04-05, 02:24 AM	Is that anything like the Wand of Detect Incompetence from RPGA LC?
Reinforcements 02-04-05, 03:37 AM	This situation exhibits an extraordinary amount of stupidity on both the part of the player and the DM. The player urinated on another player's bed. That player was acting like an immature ass. Unless I am grossly misunderstanding the tone of the action and it was all in good fun (which I seriously doubt based on the DM's reaction), he deserves to be kicked out for being an idiot and deliberately disrupting the game. I'm all for accurate role-playing... as long as it doesn't disrupt the game. That said, the DM didn't exactly deal with this properly. I agree the player needed to be punished, but the DM handled it extremely poorly. Okay, the 70th level spellcasting monk weirds me out and makes me question the DM's grasp of the rules, so there's that. More importantly, I strongly disagree with in-game punishments of this magnitude. Even though it is fairly easy to get out of paying the 1 million, the way it was presented clearly indicates that this is not something meant to be circumvented. If you're going to do this, jeez, just kick the guy out. Doing it in-game is just begging the player to go out of his way to screw you from this point forward. Now, say that the player is mature about this. I don't mean lie back and accept it, that would be ridiculous. Just be properly contrite, understand that you acted like an ass... and get a damn limited wish or talk the DM down. Hopefully that will be the end of it. If not, and the DM makes it clear that this punishment will be carried out and the rules be damned ("Limited wish won't work... uh... because he's level 70!"), what can I say? Leave the game, because this DM redefines "horrible."
Liox 02-04-05, 04:12 AM	The Reason is Simple. When you are role-playing. The Character isnt you. Furthermore, if that logic goes,all NPC being controlled by players would be unaffected. Furthermore,this is needed to ensure that there is no intentional player killing with power players in any group. Same Reason- Why there is a Sense Motive. If not, there is no point adding that in.
Snommelp 02-04-05, 11:49 AM	The Reason is Simple. The Player's Handbook says so. Under the Diplomacy skill, the statement is made that this skill is used against NPCs. If the skill worked against PCs as well, there would be no need for that statement. If you want Diplomacy to work against players, that's fine, but it's a house rule, and must be presented as such.
Lord Schpungus 02-04-05, 12:09 PM	I'm not one to argue for realism, but don't you think it breaks the facade just a little when you can Diplomacy everyone but the regular people who seem to always travel down the same road with? I'm not getting the full story about the 'I hate you' guy, but it seems to me that he was being a beliigerent player, too. Diplomacy shouldn't work on PCs like it does on NPCs, but if I want to make a deliberate effort to smooth party ruffles and I can't orate worth my own knuckle, the other players could give a little leeway with their characters when I try because my character has mucho ranks in diplomacy. Speaking as an oratorically inept nerd, that's my position.
Snommelp 02-05-05, 12:25 AM	Truthfully, Schpungus, this shouldn't ever be an issue. If the DM's doing his job right, players shouldn't have motivation for using Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. on each other. However, according to the Core Rules it doesn't work regardless. Realism or not, using Diplomacy against PCs is a house rule, not Core.
Vanigo 02-05-05, 12:46 AM	Truthfully, Schpungus, this shouldn't ever be an issue. If the DM's doing his job right, players shouldn't have motivation for using Diplomacy, Bluff, etc. on each other. However, according to the Core Rules it doesn't work regardless. Realism or not, using Diplomacy against PCs is a house rule, not Core. Well, it's not always the DM's fault. And sometimes Bluff is worth using; for example, a CG rogue travelling with a paladin might find it... expedient at times.
Ashlan 02-05-05, 01:01 AM	I think we would need to know the specifics about the diplomacy roll to really say if what the player (and consiquently the DM for allowing it) was wrong. It may have been as simple as everyone being at a social gathering and... Player 1 "I want to use my diplomacy skill to make a good impression on everyone." Roll 23 DM "Ok, you are fitting in well, chatting the locals up, and generally not making an ass of your self. You then meet Joe (player 2) Player 2 "I hate you." ******* on his bed? He got off light. Secondly, maybe the bed urination falls within what his character would do. I believe that the DM is required to punish characters for there in-game actions but this is WAY overboard. Ash
Snommelp 02-05-05, 01:16 AM	Well, it's not always the DM's fault. And sometimes Bluff is worth using; for example, a CG rogue travelling with a paladin might find it... expedient at times. Didn't mean to say it was the DM's fault. I meant to say that, if the DM is doing things correctly, the players don't even have a leg to stand on, using Diplomacy on each other. As for Bluff, I can see that it might be useful, but with good players it won't be necessary. A CG Rogue won't be too much of an issue with the Paladin; the worst he'll be doing is occasional petty theft, which, if the Paladin notices, could become a roleplayed confrontation easily enough. @Ashlan: I work with what I'm given. From what we were given, all signs point to the Diplomacy roll being used specifically against the other player. Until the OP says otherwise, I'm sticking with that assumption.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-05-05, 05:50 PM	I meant to say that, if the DM is doing things correctly, the players don't even have a leg to stand on, using Diplomacy on each other. . what? and ignore all the potential of a inter-party betrayal? Where's the fun if you can't set up a fellow player to take the blame instead of the whole party? Or the fun that can be had when someone "misunderstands" (because he wasn't told the truth) the mission and end up hunted? As a consummatly evil vegetable, I can't agree with you. Unless, of course your point was that rolling social vs players is dull. That, I conccur.
ShadowDragon8685 02-05-05, 07:13 PM	Oookay, let's see. Immature: Telling someone they hate you, off the bat, for no reason. Just as immature: Piddling in someone's bed. Immature^10^100: God Smacking someone with a Monk who can cast Clerical spells and is apparently 40 levels above his own God.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-05-05, 11:27 PM	Oookay, let's see. Immature: Telling someone they hate you, off the bat, for no reason. Just as immature: Piddling in someone's bed. Immature^10^100: God Smacking someone with a Monk who can cast Clerical spells and is apparently 40 levels above his own God. ????? I think it was a good thing to punish the dweeb. Stupid: Telling someone I hate you for no reason. totaly immature: ******* on the PC's bed correct answer from DM: Get out. Grow up. Return to our group when you've outgrown **** phase... Just a question, how old are the player sin the group, hum? theMerc... What every player shoud understand is that there are consequences to each actions. In real life, if you'd ****** on my bed willingly (and for as utterly dumbass a reason as "he called me names" (said he hated you)), I'd slug you. Your PC has the inalienable right to act like an immature child. But he should take responsibility from his actions. something not a lot of PC understand.. This thread has been around way too long. The Merc, what would YOU have done, in real life, if someone ****** on your bed because you told him you hated him? Seriously, I'm a counsellor at a summer camp for problem kids, and NEVER, EVER have I seen this kind of behavior. Grow up. ::ending rant:: ::breathing:: ::dodging incomming flame war...::
Cymraegmorgan 02-05-05, 11:30 PM	I would be shocked if any of these three(DM and two players) is over twelve. This definitely sounds like a group that needs adult supervision. Though if a player were to ask me the level of an NPC, 70 or 213 should be the answer they expect.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-06-05, 01:20 AM	a level 213 monk... :plotting: :evillaugh :schemes:
ShadowDragon8685 02-06-05, 02:01 AM	This is just the DM being an ass, pure and simple. Okay, so he did something an immature three year old might have. So what? You perform the worst DMing manuver possible on him? You blatently CHEAT? Dude, maybe his character is mentally stunted. Maybe he's just an *******. That dosen't forgive pulling some dipwad crap like what was pulled on him.
Rapidexit 02-06-05, 05:21 AM	.. If you have hirelings they might help out. They tell you that this " magic rock" is worth 1,000,500 gold and hope you fail your sense motives check or have them charm you first so you trust them. Go hand it to a carrier to hand in to the head monk and tell him the head master owes him 500 gold as a fee on dilivery. Geas is based on the subjects perception, if your GM is going to cheese you with a level 70 npc casting spells with no saveing throw you might as well cheese the repayment. Also remember that the geas still only lasts for 1 day per caster level. as mr 70th level npc is a monk primarly the spell will probaly only last two weeks to a month. Pack up the gold you need to save for the head master and hold on to it untill the spell wears off. All it will really make you do is feel the need to save up alot of valuable items or currency. Maybe consider a ring enchanted with mind blank to stop similar problems. As said before the dm can claim the npc is any level he wants.. and it could be a priest or sorcerer pretending to be the monk head master. maybe him being able to cast spells is a plot hook to overthrowing the imposter. If its not all just a fun plot and dm keeping information to himself then it just sounds like hes overcompensateing and everyones just using childish actions to outdo the others. From another point of view the Geas is justified. Your character wont actualy have to pay any money, you can even ignore the geas for a day, spend all the gold you saved, and then start saveing again the next day. But the Geas does make your character understand he was acting foolish as the guest in another cultures home. Thats rather punishment enough and maybe your character will grow as a person for it.
Ze_Mighty_Vegetable 02-06-05, 04:32 PM	So what? You perform the worst DMing manuver possible on him? You blatently CHEAT? . even assuming the Dm told him the truth about the monk's level (wich he had NO reason to tell truthfully and everyreason to lie (no way the player can KNOW , metagaming, etc...)), it's not cheating. I didn't read epic, so I don't know what's the official level-limit. Let's say it's 50. would it have affected the outcome if the monk was "merely" level 30? nope. so the monk's level is a moot point. A magic-casting monk... Why not? Even if NO class existed to allow that (and there is one, enlightened monk, I think...), if the DM said his monk can cast spells, said monk can cast spells. How exactly did this DM cheat? Hum??