Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zog_Jakome 06-11-07, 09:49 AM	so let me get this straight I have this character who is about to become epic level, he is a fighter with two weapon fighting... at 16th level with all the necessary feats he has 7 attacks per round normally 4 normally (BAB) 3 from two weapon fighting, improved two wepaon fighitng and greater two wepaon fighting. so what if he is weilding speed weapons that give him an extra attack with the weapon? that is 9 attacks per round so he becomes epic level and gets perfect two weapon fighting (complete warrior) that makes the count 10 attacks per round. now he also tacks on the feat slashing flurry (using two slashing weapon of course(from player's handbook 2)) giving him an extra attack with each(maybe not sure about that). all attacks at a -5 penalty. total count 12 attacks per round. is there something wrong with that. let me make it worse... he has monkey grip(complete warrior), oversized two-weapon fighitng(complete adventure), and wield oversized weapon(complete warrior, epic feat), and he is large(naturally) so it looks like... normally large longsword(-2 att) medium longsword(-2 att) monkey grip huge longsword (-4 att) medium longsword(-2 att) over sized two weapon fighitng huge longsword(-4 Att) large longsword(-2 att) wield oversized weapon gargantuan longsword(-4 att) huge longsword(-2 Att) and 6 attacks with each of these deadly weapons. PLEASE tell me I am wrong with something. that seems a little sickening to me. of course tell me I am right as well. according to what these feats say they are unnamed bonuses which means it stacks with anything. now I know casting haste wouldn't do anything to increase the number of attacks even more because of the speed weapons. EDIT: this was solved I was wrong and I changed my character he now has monk levels so he doesn't wield these weapons.
Bob Loblaw 06-11-07, 10:00 AM	You only get the benefit of one speed weapon. They don't stack, unfortunately. Slashing Flurry grants you one additional attack, not one with each weapon. So you could have 6 attacks with your primary and 4 attacks with your off-hand. Also, it appears that you are at -14/-8. That is kinda harsh. With all those attacks, you may not be hitting all that much. For more attacks, you could focus on Attacks of Opportunity next. Pick up: Combat Reflexes Improved Combat Reflexes Greater Combat Reflexes Improved Combat Reflexes (Epic) That will give you 3 attacks per attack of opportunity. Since you'll have the epic version, you will not be limited to your Dexterity bonus. There are other feats you can squeeze in there that will give you more, but this is the simplest one I know of.
Lecen_of_Mitran 06-11-07, 10:13 AM	And please, just PLEASE, grab a DDM miniature, take a look at it. Even a large one like an Ogre. Ask yourself if he could really hold a gargantuan weapon. My God... this is Munchikin Mayhem... Edit: Weild oversized weapon does NOT let you stack it´s benefits with those from Monkey Grip. It just take it off the -2 penalty from monkey grip. Read the ERRATA.
Roivas 06-11-07, 10:19 AM	I actually had a player who wielded a gargantuan weapon and was medium sized. His 1/2 giant fighter effectively carried a plane wing in a huge portable hole. The character was a bit ridiculous but what epic character isn't? Though he was quite skilled with his weapon of choice he only wielded one fullblade and made sure to pick up weapon sumpremecy. That guy dropped a paragon mindflayer in one round in was somewhat disturbing to watch him add up the damage.
Matthew77 06-11-07, 10:19 AM	This is an Epic melee fighter, correct? Anything he gets a full attack action upon that has less than 500 HP, and no defenses against melee weapons deserves to die. Remember you are talking about Epic.... where spellcasters are writing their own spells and Great Wyrm dragons are just a nuisance. So no, I don't think 12 attacks per round with weapons dealing 25 or so base damage is too powerful, even assuming you have applied all the rules correctly.
wonlee76 06-11-07, 10:39 AM	First: Someone mentioned it already but 2 speed weapons don't stack. You get 1 extra attack with whichever weapon you want but that's it. Second: However, a literal interpretation of Perfect Two Weapon Fighting confers the speed enhancement benefit to your offhand (Offhand attacks equals the number of attacks with your primary hand). So you can pull off 10 attacks per round with 1 speed weapon in primary hand and some other weapon in the offhand if your PC has Perfect TWF. Slashing Flurry is a standard action so it can't be used to add an extra attack to a full attack action that is required to use up all those TWF feats.
TheDragonmaster 06-11-07, 10:40 AM	If you run a strict rp-campaign, where reality is a great concern, and that "epic" still is lvl 21, you might be a bit grumpy about that character. You deserve to be. Otherwise, in a campaign where you do not punish players for optimizing their characters' potentials, you should be happy. Seriously, at lvl 20 twelve (or ten, as it really (legally) is) attacks each round is nothing... a good shadow pouncing multiweapon fighting anthromorphic giant octopus with the right martial maneuvers... don't even dare to start counting on that one... Oh, and the damage is nothing to be afraid of... what if he picked up Stormguard Warrior and used combat rythm fully one round followed by a full attack... THAT is damage, my friend!
BW0222 06-11-07, 11:32 AM	Zog_Jakome, Others have already pointed out some of the rules reasons why this isn't valid. Still, you can easily get six or seven attacks at 16th-level by specializing in it. So what? Out of a dozen random 16th-level dungeon encounters in the DMG, at least nine of them can fly. Most have at least four attacks per round themselves (often at massively more damage), reach, DR, plus various breath weapons, spells, and special abilities. Imagine... 1. Closing on the first round against a nalfeshnee, hezrou, and six vrocks? Besides the AoOs, I'm seeing you attack once followed by 15-20 attacks coming at you. 2. What happens when you realize that the 15th-level druid has an anti-life shell up or if he starts the combat with repell metal or stone, airwalk, transmute metal to wood, or puts four huge elementals per round between you and him? Even if your attacks manage say 20hp/attack, all seven hit, after DR, that sill means one huge element lasts two rounds? 3. Dragons? Even if they stayed on the ground, even simple things like blink + blur, or deeper darkness, mage armor + shield + mirror image, etc. would mean that out of seven attacks you could only expect two to land each round. (i.e. relatively low level spells counter your attacks with ease). 4. Wading into the middle of 5 ropers? With 50' reach, 6 touch attacks each per round, and drag... they could easily hold you away from each other. You also need to make what 30 or so fortitude saves per round? Chances are you'll roll at least one 1 every round and be losing 9 points of strength per round. etc., etc. Honestly, at 16th-level such specialization is hardly unexpected nor is it an issue. Large numbers of attacks do not change the fact that most creatures by those levels have simple counters to such attacks or simply do more damage and have more hit points to accept trading blows. Most ECL 16 encounters can easily do 100hp of damage per round and have 400+ hit points between them. Most fighters won't last two rounds against such creatures, yet they can typically last two rounds against even seven attacks.
Dunsel 06-11-07, 07:51 PM	Someone that maxed for battle can't have a good will save. I sure hope he is never dominated. :eek:
pmurray@bigpond.com 06-11-07, 11:34 PM	Tome of Battle. Raging Mongoose - two extra attacks with each weapon. Yow! Only works one, though, until you "recover" the maneuver.
windscar18 06-11-07, 11:39 PM	Tome of Battle. Raging Mongoose - two extra attacks with each weapon. Yow! Only works one, though, until you "recover" the maneuver. Yeah, but, if you don't kill your opponent by the time you combine Raging Mongoose with Time Stands Still, you either kill him easily with the next attack, or you are majorly screwed anyway :P
Roivas 06-12-07, 02:28 AM	As I've always said though if your foe has two or more attacks per round than you do yourself the favor of never giving them a full attack. A fighter that is so focussed on 2 weapon fighting duels a frost giant fighter. The frost giant after realizing he is dealing with a foe who is dangerous to just stand next to attacks once and moves. It might provoke a single attack of opportunity but it beats taking 8 other normal attacks or howevermany. Two weapon fighting is possibly the worst idea I've ever encountered in D&D's combat system. You have to spilt your gold into two good weapons, lose precious armor bonuses, you have to stand still in combat to use half of your feats, you get to spilt your abilities between Dex and Str [possibly ingnoing Con] and disarm and sunder become the most frightening special attacks you have to deal with. Nevermind the fact that a power attack focussed two hander can outdamage you without breaking a sweat and has a better chance of hitting. But if a player really wants the headache of a fighter with more weaknesses than the average fighter I say enjoy the ride.
Drag0nUL 06-12-07, 02:48 AM	IMHO, TWF and the related feats are not that useful as you think, just they don't reach their full potential on the fighter, but on the rogue. I mean if you have let's say 5d6 sneak attack, every extra attack you make gives at least +5d6 damage. Weapon damage becomes pretty irrelevant in this situation.
Encard 06-12-07, 04:05 AM	Meh, even with 12 attacks, he'd probably feel like a eunuch in epic. As has been said, some of these things don't even work... Honestly, you might want to consider helping him figure out how to be *more* powerful, as opposed to worrying about him being *too* powerful. Barring some of the crazier stuff (the sorts of things that gives closer to 100+ attacks), it's pretty hard for an epic melee character to be overpowered...
Zog_Jakome 06-12-07, 02:57 PM	well I thought I was sure that if you had speed quality on two weapons that you would still get an extra attack with each one. still ten attacks per round? now just to clear some things up. this is a super power campaign and just to have some fun with it the rule is anything goes. this is a gestalt character(with three classes instead of 2). race stone giant, half dragon, lycanthrope classes fighter/cleric/{rouge/beguiler} the rouge and beguiler levels add up to equal the other two the level now is 7. and we did change some rulles around.
User5127 06-12-07, 03:04 PM	Get ranks in perform dance and you can user the dervish from Complete Adventurer to get 2 full attack actions... though you do need to give 10 levels into this class. See if your DM will also let you trade away some skills like handle animal for the perfom one, that way you can have the skill from level one and get max ranks in it by level 20. (affects how long you can keep up the dance) If I'm looking at this correctly this would equate to 24 attacks a round (20 legally)? though I'm probably wrong and I am away from my books atm so I can't check up on it. EDIT: also; switch to thrikreen os something. get more attacks. haha
Darkwolf71 06-12-07, 03:22 PM	Get ranks in perform dance and you can user the dervish from Complete Adventurer to get 2 full attack actions... though you do need to give 10 levels into this class. See if your DM will also let you trade away some skills like handle animal for the perfom one, that way you can have the skill from level one and get max ranks in it by level 20. (affects how long you can keep up the dance) If I'm looking at this correctly this would equate to 24 attacks a round (20 legally)? though I'm probably wrong and I am away from my books atm so I can't check up on it. EDIT: also; switch to thrikreen os something. get more attacks. haha Dervish FTW baby! However, you can only use Thousand Cuts (14 attacks before Haste, not sure where you're getting 20/24.) once per day.
User5127 06-12-07, 03:57 PM	I'm getting 20/24 from the proposed 10/12 attacks already mentioned. and thri-kreen with mutli attack would net you many more attacks. or just polymorph into a choker some how... heh..
Darkwolf71 06-12-07, 04:30 PM	Ah, I see. 20/24 it is. Still only once per day though. Thi-Kreen would be sick.
BloodDragon 06-12-07, 04:38 PM	A Binder binding with Paimon has an unlimited number of attacks. However there are restrictions and unless your barrelling into a crowd you’ll probably only ever get 5 off… maybe There is a 9th level manoeuvre in the Tome of Battle which states you can attack as many time as you can hit. You revive a -4 after ever attack and as soon as you miss once the manoeuvre ends. Lightning Mace is a feat that lets you get an extra attack every time you threaten a critical, no limit. A little more reliable stuff can be found at the good ol’ OP boards which I’m surprised no one has pointed out since this thread started yesterday. The King of Smack has 18 attack and only two arms at level 20. And DisposableHero holds the highest number of attacks in a single round: 1496 attacks… Some thing to do with Psion and ThrallHerd by level 20.
Zankue 06-12-07, 05:06 PM	I really don't think that you have to worry about melee guys being overpowered... even w/ 20 attacks b/c a wizard by that lvl can do any sorts of things that would kill anything b4 the fighter can even charge at the enemy
Darkwolf71 06-12-07, 05:12 PM	I really don't think that you have to worry about melee guys being overpowered... even w/ 20 attacks b/c a wizard by that lvl can do any sorts of things that would kill anything b4 the fighter can even charge at the enemy:thinks: I can't say I've had that problem with my +15 initiative Dervish.
User5127 06-12-07, 08:21 PM	Foresight + Greater Celerity = I go first always. period. haha
Encard 06-12-07, 10:42 PM	and we did change some rulles around. These changed rules... they'd be helpful to hear. :thinks: I can't say I've had that problem with my +15 initiative Dervish. Spellcasters have a fair number of ways to boost initiative, and - as mentioned - spells like Celerity completely bypass that. For most melee characters, once you're in a Forcecage (or otherwise incapacitated), you're as good as dead - that is, assuming they didn't kill you right out or charm you or whatnot. Not to say melee characters are worthless, but at high levels - and especially at Epic levels - things can get pretty hairy for them.
Darkwolf71 06-13-07, 12:17 AM	Spellcasters have a fair number of ways to boost initiative, and - as mentioned - spells like Celerity completely bypass that. My bonuses are always active, not limited by spell duration, cannot be dispelled, and don't cut into my offensive/defensive capabilities. YMMV :tiphat:
User5127 06-13-07, 06:10 AM	very true, but at those kinds of levels a first round kil can be reality. so a spellcaster that is optimised for this can easily kill all and bypass a high initiative count just by saying I want to act first.
Aubri 06-13-07, 02:54 PM	I don't have copies of all the feats, but I'd question whether they stack. If it says words to the effect that "you can weild a weapon one size larger than normal without penalty", that definitely wouldn't stack -- they both key off of your normal size. If another feat reduces size penalties by 2, that would stack, but not with other similar reductions. Can you quote the relevant passages of each feat?
Zog_Jakome 06-13-07, 07:02 PM	These changed rules... they'd be helpful to hear. Not much really. for one thing since we have 3 weeks to get to level 20 (class level) leveling is super fast instead of XP I get levels at the end of a fight. and I based whether or not I am epic level on my total HD not my effective character level which is 25. this is so I can have a base attack bonus go up much faster. I would suck being a level 2 fighter who gets an epic base attack progression and as a gestalt character I have 3 classes instead of 2. I mingle with gods, I was created by them so they help me out by making me magic items that I want in a flash. that's all I can think of that was changed at the moment.
Zog_Jakome 01-23-08, 07:24 PM	:bump: I actually now changed this character he is now level 23 and is a monk, kensai, dervish, sorcerer, warblade guy I normally have 9 attacks per round 4 BAB 3 TWF chain 2 flurry of blows attack bonus starts at 40 each one does 4d6+forty somethin' with a combination of a few spells and a thousand cuts I could do 22 touch attacks, all together if I hit all of the time (at a +40 to touch most of the time) the minimum damage is over 1,300 points of damage.
Wih 01-23-08, 07:33 PM	:bump: I actually now changed this character he is now level 23 and is a monk, kensai, dervish, sorcerer, warblade guy I normally have 9 attacks per round 4 BAB 3 TWF chain 2 flurry of blows attack bonus starts at 40 each one does 4d6+forty somethin' with a combination of a few spells and a thousand cuts I could do 22 touch attacks, all together if I hit all of the time (at a +40 to touch most of the time) the minimum damage is over 1,300 points of damage. Stormguard Warrior is well-known to be abusable. However, in epic that's still not going to be much compared to spellcasters. You might keep up for a short time tho.
BrianMc223 01-23-08, 08:35 PM	Why no Multiheaded Thri-Keen? That's 18 attacks a round even with just a regular (non-gestalt, no feats, no special abilities) guy. Of course, the guy that's a Wizard20/Cleric20/Druid20 is going to stomp you into the dirt. (Kinda MAD, but I'm assuming it was at least 80pt buy.)
Zog_Jakome 01-23-08, 09:05 PM	I have already chosen the combination of races, believe it or not I actually want to look at least a little human, in other words no four armed insect looking thing with a resemblance to a dragon and a stone giant. and as for stormguard warrior, I have learned that the tactical feats aren't that useful. I have a spell called wraithstrike that basically allows all of my attacks to be touch attacks and it's a swift action. that and I strike with my fists anyway, most of my maneuvers from warblade are boosts, or counters.
Wih 01-23-08, 09:18 PM	I have already chosen the combination of races, believe it or not I actually want to look at least a little human, in other words no four armed insect looking thing with a resemblance to a dragon and a stone giant. and as for stormguard warrior, I have learned that the tactical feats aren't that useful. I have a spell called wraithstrike that basically allows all of my attacks to be touch attacks and it's a swift action. that and I strike with my fists anyway, most of my maneuvers from warblade are boosts, or counters. Wraithstrike, Boosts and Counters are very hard to mix in together, as you normally only get one swift action a round. Boosts are a swift action, and Counters use up the swift action for your next turn. Plu,s you only have so many spells per day - you can use Stormguard Warrior as many times as you like. Or, think about using them together - Stormguard Warrior, then full attack with Wraithstrike the next round.
Zog_Jakome 01-24-08, 04:13 AM	that's right I use them whenever I can, I don't have the character sheet in front of me so I can't tell you the maneuvers I have exactly. as for the limiting spells per day... wraithstrike is a second level spell and I am 17th level in sorcerer if I should ever run out of second level spells to cast in one day, we have a slight problem, but it doesn't matter because we have house rules in place that allows me to regain my spells per day, actually it's the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana with the vitalization rules meaning that if I can just cast something on me that removes fatigue then my spell points go up. Thanks to my 3 levels in cleric also, I can cast healing lorecall to remove fatigue with any conjuration(healing) spell I cast. So I am just going to have to live with attacking 11 times next round if I have to use a counter... oh well :rolleyes:
pmurray@bigpond.com 01-24-08, 08:25 AM	PLEASE tell me I am wrong with something. that seems a little sickening to me. of course tell me I am right as well. Meh. A minmaxed melee fighter. Whoopee-do. Smack him with anything that requires a will save - hightened Glitterdust, for instance - and watch him fold like an economic girlie man. I ran a gestalt Warblade/Rogue TWF at one stage. He used Kukris with Improved Crit (crit on a 15-20), Blood in the Water stance, And telling Blow (crits also do sneak attack damage). yes, he was one hell of a shredder. But I got bored with him and replaced him with a gestalt Shujenga/Sorcerer that did not have a weapon and had no spells that did ability or HP damage. His name was Katsuhiko, and he fkn *rocked*. IMO, anyway. Whatever works for you is fine.
Turin 01-24-08, 10:42 AM	Just to add something that a lot of people seem to have missed. The bulk of those attacks will be reduced down from his highest attack bonus (-5/iterative attack). At epic level a lot of the monsters have AC's that are pretty high. If you've got 10 attacks, you can probably only expect the first handful of your attacks to actually hit -- unless you're very optimized, of course.
deadkoo 01-24-08, 04:29 PM	Someone that maxed for battle can't have a good will save. I sure hope he is never dominated. :eek: Death Urge FTW!
Zog_Jakome 01-24-08, 05:11 PM	Just to add something that a lot of people seem to have missed. The bulk of those attacks will be reduced down from his highest attack bonus (-5/iterative attack). At epic level a lot of the monsters have AC's that are pretty high. If you've got 10 attacks, you can probably only expect the first handful of your attacks to actually hit -- unless you're very optimized, of course. and I am pretty optimized my lowest attack is a +30 and out of 9 attacks only 1 of them is that low. like I said I don't have it in front of me but trust me when I say that very few things can actually challenge him, since I turned my cleric levels into sorcerer levels I gain more combat spells, things that improve my combat capability, I didn't choose very many spells that require a save because in epic levels I must assume that they will pass a save, so no disintegrate, fireball, cone of cold, none of those evocation spells, My main ones are abjuration, transmutation, enchantment. the only evocation spells I took are the ones that don't have saves, or aren't damaging in effect (like otiluke's resilient sphere) I could just get the sheet and show you. I was created by the gods so it is meant to be rediculous. Meh. A minmaxed melee fighter. Whoopee-do. Smack him with anything that requires a will save - hightened Glitterdust, for instance - and watch him fold like an economic girlie man. I have sorcerer levels and monk levels my will save is quite high (in the 30's I think)
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-24-08, 05:38 PM	Not sure about death urge, but there is a spell in stormwreck that compiles the subject to down them selves. Nothing like the mental image of Conan trying to force his head into a mug of ale.
BrianMc223 01-24-08, 06:09 PM	Yea, that save is mediocre. Even using normal (Admittedly with a bit more money than he should have) rules a 25th level wizard could hit you with a dominate epic spell that you don't have a chance against.
Sinfire Titan 01-24-08, 06:18 PM	PLEASE tell me I am wrong with something. that seems a little sickening to me. of course tell me I am right as well. Wow, you are worried about a measly 12 attacks a round? I believe that the record was somewhere in the 450's, not sure though. I know it was over one hundred. Anyway, yes, you are doing something wrong. Speed weapons don't stack with each other. Edit: Damn, I'm slow today.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-24-08, 06:25 PM	Yea, that save is mediocre. Even using normal (Admittedly with a bit more money than he should have) rules a 25th level wizard could hit you with a dominate epic spell that you don't have a chance against. Not really, pick up leadership, find 140ish halfings all with that halfing feat that lets them all stand in the same spot. Cast your DC 180 save or become dominated for 2.6 years ritual spell. Spells' cast DC: 0. Cost to create: 0gp Days to create: 1 day. Number of DMs that really allow such brokeness: 0. Any questions? :P
BrianMc223 01-24-08, 06:53 PM	I'm not talking about epic spell abuse, I'm just talking about a spel a dm has no reason to disallow.
Zog_Jakome 01-24-08, 07:06 PM	Wow, you are worried about a measly 12 attacks a round? I believe that the record was somewhere in the 450's, not sure though. I know it was over one hundred. at my level tell me how that is possible without having multiple arms. (level 23)
Wih 01-24-08, 07:36 PM	at my level tell me how that is possible without having multiple arms. (level 23) Tornado Throw from Tome of Battle, plus a ludiocrous movement speed.
Zog_Jakome 01-24-08, 09:01 PM	Tornado Throw from Tome of Battle, plus a ludiocrous movement speed. 1. it's a 9th level maneuver 2. even if you did have a high enough speed to throw him 100 times the damage is minimal. 3. you must trip him every time or it doesn't work if he beats you once, you can't trip him again until you move out and back in. 4. it's a setting sun maneuver I hate setting sun and I am a warblade, no access to it.
Sinfire Titan 01-25-08, 12:24 AM	at my level tell me how that is possible without having multiple arms. (level 23) It involves a lot of books to do, check with the CO boards. They can point you in the right direction, if not repost the entire record-breaker build.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-25-08, 02:15 AM	Multiple attacks suck without dice addons. Examples are based on the charecter having 20 BAB. 32 (+11) str. Core's weapon feats (+2 att, +4 dmg). A +5 enchanted weapon. TWF Fighter (large light weapon, for -2 att for TWF, no penalty for size?) Hit %: 95%/80%/55%/30% & 95%/80%/55% + 95% Damage: (longsword, aka large shortsword) 1d8+20 Average: 7 hits, 171.5 dmg. Handicap: You must start your turn within 5 feet of your foe, you killed three feats for TWF, and another one or two for +1 dmg for this? o.O THF Fighter (valorous greatsword, DMGII's battle boots, leap attack) Hit %: PA for 6, 95%. Damage: 2d6+49*2 (from valorous) (PA 6*2 for +12 via THF, then +100% PA's total bonus for a true x2 via leap for +24) Average: 1 hit, 112 dmg. Handicap: Cannot start next to your foe. Which is ok, if you don't kill them let someone else finish them, their almost dead already. THF Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 19 (same as THF Fighter, but it cna rage & has pounce) Hit %: PA for 6, 95%/70%/45%/20%. If Rageing, PA 8 Damage: As THF Fighter. If Rageing, 2d6+54*2. Average: 2 hits, 224 dmg. If Raging, 244. Handicap: Cannot start next to your foe. Which is no big deal, corpses are not a threat. Warblade (longsword, strike of clerity) Hit %: 95% Damage: 1d8+120 Average: 1 hit, 124 dmg. Handicap: None (just use other strikes afterwards), you also have a move action to play with. Warblade #2 (all-out, Time Stands Still, Raging Moongoose, TWF, speed weapon / haste, again, medicore dagger for a weapon) Hit %: 95%/80%/55%/30% & 95%/80%/55% AND 95%/80%/55%/30% & 95%/80%/55% + 95%/95%/95%/95%/95% Damage: 1d4+20 Average: 17 hits, 382.5 dmg. Handicap: As TWF, and once every other round. Time spent rolling all those attacks and damage will annoy other players. Now revampe the foe. Same AC, but now it has DR 5/(whatever you won't have) TWF Fighter: 7 hits, 136.5 dmg. THF Fighter: 1 hit, 107 dmg. THF Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 19: 2 hits, 214/234 dmg. Warblade: 1 hit, 119 dmg. Warblade #2: 17 hits, 297.5 dmg. DR 10/? (what most CR 20s have at the very least) TWF Fighter: 7 hits, 101.5 dmg. THF Fighter: 1 hit, 102 dmg. THF Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 19: 2 hits, 204/224 dmg. Warblade: 1 hit, 114 dmg. Warblade #2: 17 hits, 246.5 dmg. DR 15/? TWF Fighter: 7 hits, 66.5 dmg. THF Fighter: 1 hit, 97 dmg. THF Totem Barbarian 1 / Fighter 19: 2 hits, 194/214 dmg. Warblade: 1 hit, 109 dmg. Warblade #2: 17 hits, 161.5 dmg. Does it have DR? [yes] Can you beat its DR? [no] You suck, roll up a new charecter before you kill your party. Edit - Bonus figure. Warblade (feral death blow) Hit %: 95% Damage: Fort save vs death (DC 30), if they make it they take 1d8+20d6+20 damage. Average: Death~94.5 dmg. Handicap: You have to put ranks in jump or buy a jump pooster, a +20 sells for 40k, and your total jump check will +31, vs their 35 AC... Epic Rogue 23 (20 str, TWF, flanking) +5 brillent energy, deadly percision dagger (+11 weapon) Also owns bracers of the hunter, mantle of the predator and rogue's vest. Hit %: 95%/95%/95% & 95%/95%/95% Damage: 1d4+10 +17d6 SA Average: 6 hits, 432 dmg. Handicap: Same as other TWFs. Warlock 20 / Hellfire Warlock 3 (invested in the soul meld feat for a strong heart vest) Hit %: 95%/95%/95% (all touch attacks) Damage: 15d6 untyped & hellfire. Average: 3 hits, 157.5 dmg. Handicap: None. Other bonuses: Greater invisiblity at will, warlock's spell casting, auto hit with reflex save for half hellfire shield when hit once/round, there are elderich blast upgrade items... The "not even using the rules" 12 attack fighter example is lame compaired to other commen builds.
Zog_Jakome 01-25-08, 07:48 PM	ok I finally have the sheet in front of me... races: Half-dragon, half-celestial, stone giant(2HD), with lycanthropy(dire bear 6 HD) classes (gestalt with 3 slots instead of two) total level 23 slot 1: warblade 10/dervish 10/ cleric 3 slot 2: sorcerer 15/Kensai 8 slot 3: 20 Monk/1 rogue/+2 sorcerer total levels in sorcerer: 17 I put the order of the classes to ensure I was in only 1 prestige class at a time. stats(with all of the increases from race) numbers in parantheses is my hybrid form str 43(63) +16(+26) dex 26(28) +8(+9) con 30(38) +10(+14) int 16 +3 wis 26 +8 cha 22 +6 AC 65 (+13 armor, +8 dex, +8 Wis, -1 size, +15 natural, +5 deflection, +4 monk, +3 dervish) in hybrid form dex goes up by 1 and natural goes up by 4 making my hybrid AC 70 HD: 31 HP: 511 (635 in hybrid form) saves Fort +36(+40) Reflex+31(+32) Will +31 BAB +27 (+20 levels, +2 epic, +5 racial HD) speed: 100, Fly 200(Good) attacks: (normal form) Kensai enhancements(magic +1, speed(+3), spell storing(+1), holy(+2), evil outsider bane(+1)) Flurry of blows +42, +42, +42, +42, +37, +37, +32, +32, +27, +42 (4d8+17 +2d6(against evil)+2d6(against evil outsiders) attacks: (hybrid form) flurry of blows +52, +52, +52, +52, +47, +47, +42, +42, +37, +52 (4d8+27 +2d6(against evil)+2d6(against evil outsiders) Feat selection(in order form lvl 1 to lvl 23): mobility, combat expertise, dodge, weapons focus(unarmed strike), Improved unarmed strike*, stnning fist*, eschew materials*, deflect arrows*, verstatile strike, Improved initiative*, quicken spell*, Improved disarm*, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, maximize spell*, spring attack*, greater two weapon fighting, twin spell*, Improved combat expertise, extra spell, practiced spellcaster, multispell(epic) feats marked with an asterisk is a bonus feat from a class feature sorcerer house rule: eschew materials at 1st level and a bonus feat every five levels. warblade maneuver selection: Iron heart surge, finishing move, diamond defense, greater insightful strike, quick silver motion, Iron heart endurance, adamantine hurricane, lighting recovery. warblade stance selection: Punishing stance, pearl of black doubt, stance of aclarity sorcerer spell selection: 0-amanuensis, detect magic, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic 1-ebon eyes, fist of stone, magic missile, shield, true casting 2-combust, enlarge weapon, heroics, scintillating scales, wraithstrike 3-heroism, shivering touch, tenacious dispelling, wand madulation 4-assay spell resistance, otiluke's resilient sphere, ray deflection, stoneskin 5-telekinesis, greater blink, indomitability, lightning leap 6-analyze dwoemer, greater dispel magic, true seeing 7-Iron guard, limited wish, mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, spell turning 8-Arcane fusion, moment of prescience cleric spell selection(usually) Domains: destruction, force 0-create water, purify food/drink. detect poison, summon holy symbol 1-detect evil, cure light wounds, inflict light wounds, endure elements, protection from evil, bless 2- healing lorecall, cure moderate wounds, close wounds, light of mercuria, shatter I could go on with the list of class features, racial features, skills and all the items I have(which really isn't much), but I figured this is enough to get a general idea of what this guy is about. Let me just show you the combination of 22 attacks that does a minimum of 1392 damage. This attack requires a little bit of setup, first I begin dancing(dervish) I go to hybrid form I cast heroics(extra fighter bonus feat (perfect two weapon fighting)) I cast enlarge weapon I cast fist of stone(+6 str) making sure I am using slashing attacks via versatile strike I activate power surge (+8 str)(+44 concentration check)(yes it stacks with fist of stone) Now I am ready to attack... hmm I now just realized I forgot one huge feat... Power attack oh well I'll live before I begin I use a swift action to cast wraithstrike (all attacks is a touch attack) activate 1 thousand cuts (dervish) +65, +65, +65, +65, +60, +60, +55, +55, +50, +50, +65, +65, +65, +65, +65, +60, +60, +55, +55, +50, +50, +65 damage is 6d8+39 +2d6 +2d6 (+22 off hand) at the end thanks to multispell I can do 1 quicken spell I do a combust (10d8 no save I lied the minimum damage is only 952 that is if I roll a 1 on all my rolls and no one is that unlucky (for those wondering max damage is 2,386) any questions?
BrianMc223 01-25-08, 11:31 PM	Your saves BLOW. You also figured your BAB wrong. Once it hit's twenty you start getting epic attack bonus. You don't get a 25 because you have racial HD then start getting epic. I really hope you didn't include an extra attack from that. Something about that AC line doesn't feel right to me. I might be totally wrong. It also isn't that impressive. You can't bypass damage reduction/epic can you? That kills your damage output. Looking at level appropriate force dragon you're only doing like 200 damage on a full attack. You might want to fix that. This build just isn't very impressive considering the rules you are going under. It isn't that impressive for a normal level 27.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-26-08, 03:08 AM	... races: Half-dragon, half-celestial, stone giant(2HD), with lycanthropy(dire bear 6 HD) ... classes (gestalt with 3 slots instead of two) total level 23 ... Three classes? :eek: Hum... How would I try something out like that... White dragonspawn loth touched fire-souled magic-blooded human Slot 1 (spellcasting): sorcerer 14 / marshall 3 / spelltheif 1 / totem barbarian 1 / fighter 2. Slot 2 (warrior): warblade 18 / master of nine 2. Slot 3 (other): rogue 2 / hexblade 4 / black guard 2 / swift blade 10 / rogue 1 / Ninja 1. I dare not list everything but... +6 str, +2 dex, +8 con, -2 wis, +6 cha. 21st level spellcasting, 20th level maneuvers (three 9th level maneuvers from any path to), pounce, two cha to whatevers, SA 9d6 (via stance & items), can cast haste as a free action, while under haste eveythign has a 50% miss chance vs me, evasion & mettle, my foes have a -4 to their saves (dark companion), and my cha times two on saves vs arcane spells. hmm, maybe... Slot 1: bard 1 / wizard 22. Slot 2: warblade 17 / swordsage 6. Slot 3: thatskillguy (dungeonscape) 8 / ur-preist 1 / sublime chord 1 / mystic theurge 10. 9th spells from three classes with 9th level warblade and 7th level swordsage maneuvers, and the ability to have two turns at once per encounter. Your given everything you need to break the game, and enough overkill for two other players, and 12 attacks is 'powerful"? *** What is the main topic again? Was the OP throwing a fit about his DM sent something at him with 12 attacks at his gestaltx2 charecter, or a DM complaining about one of his players gestaltx2 players having 12 attacks? And when did this thread become "optimize my deity"?
BrianMc223 01-26-08, 04:48 PM	They way I look at it the OP was trying to brag about how sweet his awesome super gestalt was, but in reality it kinda blows. He also doesn't seem to understand fundamental aspects of the game. If I was the DM I'd throw an Old Force Dragon at him and laugh when his full attack did 200 damage.
thejibboo 01-26-08, 05:02 PM	Can someone explain to me why a Speed weapon in each hand doesn't give you 2 extra attacks? The description says "When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it."
Zog_Jakome 01-26-08, 06:21 PM	Your saves BLOW. You also figured your BAB wrong. Once it hit's twenty you start getting epic attack bonus. You don't get a 25 because you have racial HD then start getting epic. I really hope you didn't include an extra attack from that. Something about that AC line doesn't feel right to me. I might be totally wrong. It also isn't that impressive. You can't bypass damage reduction/epic can you? That kills your damage output. Looking at level appropriate force dragon you're only doing like 200 damage on a full attack. You might want to fix that. This build just isn't very impressive considering the rules you are going under. It isn't that impressive for a normal level 27. then tell me why the BAB on the demons in hordes of the abyss with 21 or more HD have the same BAB as they do HD, from that I determined racial HD doesn't count for when you become epic. it's consistant every where you look. I used to include racial HD, my BAB sucked and my saves were even lower until I saw the BAB of a monster in some of these books. saves are the same way, I only have 31 HD 8 of them being racial HD from 2 races, thus like multiclassing add the saves of each "class" together 2 HD good fort (3/0/0), 6HD good fort (5/2/2), total racial saves (8/2/2) add in 20 levels in monk (12/12/13) (because of sorcerer levels in another slot my will save is at 13) add in epic save (+1) total (21/15/16) base save fort +36(21 base, +10 con, +5 from cloak of resistance) Ref +31(15 base, +8 dex, +5 COR, +3 (int bonus from warblade) Will +31(16 base, +8 wis, +5 COR, +2 iron will(bonus from lycanthropy) saves can't go that much higher also keep in mind the highest level character I ever had before this was a level 15 sorcerer so I have little to no experience with epic levels. ...no my base number of attacks is 4 because my BAB is 16 or higher, 3 from TWF chain, 2 from flurry of blows, 1 from speed as for AC what doesn't seem right? is it the armor bonus? well its not really an armor bonus it is a class defense bonus (optional rule from unearthed arcana) and we have determined that it keeps going beyond 20th level so a "fighter" with 23 levels has a +13 class defense bonus. we also roll for AC so my AC could be a 56 for one attack or a 75 for another. not many things have hit me so far and if they do I have 511 HP, I am not worried. wait a minute, hold up the DMG says a weapon cannot have higher than a +5 enhancement bonus(very clearly I might add), how is it ever going to become an epic weapon? do the powers of physics change when we become epic levels all of a sudden and allow weapons to have a +6 or higher, but if we get drained of a few levels for whatever reason to drop us under epic our +6 drops to a +5. it makes no sense that they would put that in there. it might as well be DR x/-. or is it the effective bonus that determines if it overcomes DR/epic meaning that according to epic level handbook my fists are epic weapons, do they over come epic DR. after looking at it harder it seems that if you pump enough gold into something anything is possible even breaking some previously set rules and about the BAB thing I hope you are not going to tell me that monsters are different and they get BAB for all of their HD... even if they take class levels. I did not create this guy to break the game. I created this guy to have fun I am actually one of those that enjoys a challenge so I am not optimizing him or anything, I pick the things I wanted, like lightning leap I picked for the sole reason that it looked cool not because it does a lot of damage (which it doesn't) I initially came here wondering if I was correct about the 12 attacks per round and quickly found out I wasn't then someone started to ask questions about this character, introduced me to dervish now this was 4 months ago I have completely re-worked him after all my stuff was disjunctioned, so I brought it back to show how much he changed and people assumed that he was all about fighting and has no will save, or that with all those attacks damage can't be that high, or attack bonus can't be that high, or they didn't understand what he was about class wise, so I had to post a large chunk of him, also to see if I am doing something wrong which I have been told I am. thank you for input
Zog_Jakome 01-26-08, 06:56 PM	They way I look at it the OP was trying to brag about how sweet his awesome super gestalt was, but in reality it kinda blows. He also doesn't seem to understand fundamental aspects of the game. If I was the DM I'd throw an Old Force Dragon at him and laugh when his full attack did 200 damage. I wasn't bragging or anything, I enjoy low levels and thought it would be a change to take it to the more extreme than what I am used to. To me a minimum of 900 is a lot. to you, you are thinking about DR that I can't overcome, I have not even fought anything in the epic level handbook. the highest CR I fought so far was 27 and it was mordenkainen. that and my DM has NEVER DMed anything in his life, he hardly plays the game, nor does he know how to play an epic monster against someone like me. he sucks at math, we don't keep track of XP, anything he throws at me is pretty much dead, anything you throw at me will laugh at me as I do only 200 damage to him. so with that said compare this to non epic level handbook creatures or dragons with a VERY inexperienced DM and re-grade him. wondering why I play? I actually don't play him that often but for some reason enjoy destroying everything he throws at me when I do play. like I said I do this for fun not to see how powerful I can become. you want to see power? i'll show you SIN from final fantasy 10, *sigh* yes I statted(sp?) SIN out.:looloo:
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-26-08, 07:01 PM	The laws do change when you become epic. Without craft magical arms & armor you cannot create a +1 weapon. Without epic craft magical arms & armor you cannot create a +6 weapon. You cannot take epic craft magical arms & armor until you are epic so therefore, until you are epic, and thus using a splat book. You cannot craft +6 weapon using the Core rules. You can however buy a +5 bane (magical beast) weapon to overcome a tarrasqua's DR since the weapon is treated as a +7 against it. *** HD does count for epic reasons. Either the FAQ or the epic handbook says this but you lost my care to find the rules source when you based your claim on "but other monsters can!". You may have noticed monster's BAB rarely if ever makes sense. This is because racial levels are in every way inferior to class levels. So numbers are tweaked and edited in order to provide the desired CR. Next you'll run around with claims that having 48HD means your only a 20th level charecter, or you should get spell-like abilities from your class HD because other monsters get some. Like wise, most monsters are made without anything but Core's rules in mind, so no following epic rules. Those examples are found everywhere to. Like the deities & demigods book with level 40+ gods created without using the epic handbook, or how swift actions are defined in every book that has them because core don't.
Bauglir 01-26-08, 08:21 PM	Record (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12657563&postcount=321) for both max number of attacks, max speed, and max damage (excluding the Dirty Tricks, but those are so incredibly game breaking that your computer is incapable of holding the amount of damage when expressed with normal notation). Though it may have been updated between now and when I bookmarked it. You should check. Also, as has been mentioned, your saves suck. They suck hard. Your AC could stand to go up. Your HP isn't bad, but could stand to be higher. Put it this way; using 32 point buy, I built a single-classed character that had AC 65, saves of +46, +42, and +40, and an attack bonus only 10 points behind yours (it did less damage, but the attacks came with a DC 37 or so poison that had paralysis for 1d4 rounds as its primary damage), in addition to Hide and Move Silently checks such that only characters who put effort into Spot or Listen could see him when he was sniping at them from less than 30 feet away, and he could do it under any conditions but a completely empty room with a Daylight spell on the walls, and it had in excess of 300 hp. At level 20. You're triple-leveled gestalt 23 with incredibly nice houserules and something like +21 ECL before class levels. You should be able to blow that out of the water by sneezing, if the water in question is in the opposite direction and on another plane entirely. In your defense, however, you get buckets more attacks, so you've got something. Now, that said, it's cool if your DM isn't throwing much in the way of Epic Level Challenges at you. That's how you play. But my suggestion would be to play at a lower level, possibly only with single-classed things. Properly run, anything of the right CR is going to slaughter you, and otherwise you're going to slaughter it with no trouble at all. Things are a bit riskier at lower levels, because things swing easier and it's easier to run. If you want super-powerful characters to dominate unintelligent enemies all set to a decent storyline, Final Fantasy is a good choice (as I'm sure you're aware).
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-26-08, 09:33 PM	If you want super-powerful characters to dominate unintelligent enemies all set to a decent storyline, Final Fantasy is a good choice (as I'm sure you're aware). You mean that in a good way I hope. And by good way I assume you mean "I used gameshark for unlimited HP to kill Ozma, but the game was freaking awesome".
BrianMc223 01-26-08, 09:40 PM	Sorry if I come off as hostile, it's because you come off like you don't really know what you are doing (and I'm an ass), now that you've admitted that to be true we can get along better. Looking through the monster manual I do see a bunch of creatures with BAB equal to HD, but that isn't how it's supposed to work past 20. As was said, epic wasn't taken into consideration. That alternate feature in your ac line is what bugged me. Now that I know what it is it appears to make sense. A cloak of resistance +10 would help a lot on your saves. As Bauglir said, crazy things are possible. In order to bypass DR/Epic a weapon must either have a bonus of +6 or higher (IE: +6 longsword), an epic enchantment (+1 Dragon Dread(+6 bonus) Lonsword), or a total bonus of +10 or Higher(+5 Vorpal(+5) Brilliant Energy(+4) Longsword.) To make an item like this you must have the epic version of the item creation feat. There was a build I've seen that could do 17 quadrillion d6 damage. There is a long way to go between breaking the game and where you are at. You really should have a lot more experience before even attempting to play epic. (Which makes some very experienced guys' heads spin.) A DM without any experience is better off running a very basic campaign at level 3-5 possibly with low experience. Epic is incredibly hard to balance. Some would say impossible. That's not to say you can't keep doing this, but keep in mind you're not really playing D&D anymore.
BrianMc223 01-26-08, 09:45 PM	Wait, actually my bad, it was 17 Octillion d6.
Bauglir 01-26-08, 10:20 PM	Oh, yeah. Actually, FF12 is my favorite game ever (though, for some reason, nobody seems to agree with me). But I haven't played Portal yet. Anyway, most of the games are pretty good. I did mean that in the good way of, "The game is awesome, but by the end I was pretty much able to walk over everything that stood in my path."
Zog_Jakome 01-27-08, 11:20 AM	both me and my DM have a lot of experience playing D&D I played 2nd edition when it was out, but he was lucky enough to start playing when we were playing 3rd edition. epic rules are in the core rules DMG is core you don't need splat books. ok so what would it take for my kensai to have a +6 enhancment bonus on his unarmed strikes, does it allow me to do things like this because I am now epic level? and with the BAB and HD and all that, maybe this is another reason why they felt the should make a 4th edition because of things like this. so my effective character level is 45(Racial HD+level adjustment+class levels) this means I have been epic level since 1st class level. LA is +14 Racial HD...BAB..........ECL Stone giant 1.............. 0 ............15 2.............. 1 ............16 Lycan 1...............1.............17 2...............2.............18 3...............3.............19 4...............4.............20 epic level 5...............5.............21 6...............5.............22 1st level.....6.............23 my racial HD gives me BAB +4 before I become epic level so my BAB right now is +17 since I have been epic level since 1st level I am eligible for epic feats since 1st level. it was for this reason that I decided to ignore my level adjustment when it comes to epic level and my DM agreed giving me increased BAB but not as many epic feats, a fair trade off. what do you think?
Zog_Jakome 01-27-08, 01:24 PM	Record (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12657563&postcount=321) for both max number of attacks, max speed, and max damage (excluding the Dirty Tricks, but those are so incredibly game breaking that your computer is incapable of holding the amount of damage when expressed with normal notation). Though it may have been updated between now and when I bookmarked it. You should check. :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! I just took a long hard look at the "record". we don't use psionics but I am sure there is an actual item or spell somewhere that does the same thing. holy crap, imagine someone moving that far in six seconds... wait... *does a little calculations*... although that speed is not the speed of light, it is roughly 8,900 times the speed of sound. can you say sonic boom?
BrianMc223 01-27-08, 03:37 PM	I'd assume that you can make your fists epic now. Actually your BAB is 4 but you get a +13 epic bonus on attack rolls. You only get 1 attack a round. Special rules are kinda necessary. Honestly at this point you might as well not bother asking "Can I do that?" because you are already destroying the rules. I can't imagine playing this kind of character, it would just be irritating to me.
Zog_Jakome 01-27-08, 04:45 PM	that blows severely. so it behooves a player to avoid adding in a lot of races together because the level adjustment may start you at epic level when you take your first class level. what if I didn't have any racial HD but my level adjustment ended up being +22. that would make my BAB 0. the way I see my DM doesn't know this crap and he probably would not care if he did
BrianMc223 01-27-08, 06:15 PM	You do realize that starting at epic isn't normal? You also realize that your character has two half templates, which doesn't actually make any sense. The LA system is broken, and makes you underpowered for you ECL. (In all but a few rare cases.)
Zog_Jakome 01-28-08, 12:15 AM	I started at 1st level with a really fast leveling up. Player-"how many levels do I get?" DM-"ten" player-"I'm epic level now" before this it was a level or two at a time per fight I thought it out and it is possible to have two halves a celestial stone giant with lycanthropy mates with a dragon. according to a direct reading of the rules it is possible. whether or not the physical possibility exists. doesn't matter, I was created by gods anyway they made it possible. yes the LA system is broken that is why I thought I should ignore it when I realized the problems... maybe I should take the average or the highest LA I have and use that. I don't know, maybe I should just keep him the same. it's a game and I have a game shark.
Bauglir 01-29-08, 03:25 PM	Also, the rules take into account something with two "half-" templates. Change the halves to quarters, or eighths if you have 3 or 4, etc.
BrianMc223 01-29-08, 10:42 PM	BTW: You started at level 22. LA + Racial HD = Starting ECL.
Zog_Jakome 01-30-08, 11:49 AM	Also, the rules take into account something with two "half-" templates. Change the halves to quarters, or eighths if you have 3 or 4, etc. but my parents were a full celestial, and a full dragon, according to the way mating works, half of the single parent moves on to the child thus being half celestial and half dragon. besides like I said I was created by Heironeous, Pelor, St. cuthbert and maybe a few others, they made it possible. BTW: You started at level 22. LA + Racial HD = Starting ECL. OK if you put it that way but because of that I ignored my level adjustment when it came to when I became epic level, thus I actually started at 9th level.
Bauglir 01-30-08, 12:46 PM	Y'know, I don't think level adjustment counts for determining when you start obeying epic rules (epic attack bonus and so on). I'm not sure where I heard that, though, and it could easily be a houserule or something. Anyone else heard something to that effect? If that's the case, the build would be more viable. I mean, besides the fact that it's already treating it that way. It'd just be following the actual rules better.
BrianMc223 01-30-08, 03:04 PM	You might be right now that you mention it. I'm thinking you don't go epic until your 21st HD. The templates can be stacked according to the rules but it doesn't really make sense. I guess the figure that Dragon Blood makes you better than a member of your race so you end up stronger than them even though you only have half of their genetics.
Zog_Jakome 01-30-08, 05:23 PM	As much as I agree with you both but unfortunately according to RAW, LA does go into when you become epic level. look on page 209 of DMG under "Monsters as epic characters". it clearly states that LA goes into account. a half dragon is not nearly as powerful as a full dragon, BUT for some reason a half celestial is more powerful than a full celestial based on level adjustments and powers.
Bauglir 01-30-08, 06:23 PM	Well, that's a pity. On the other hand, at least you get Epic Attack Bonus and Epic Save Bonuses for your LA after 20. That's something, I guess.
Zog_Jakome 01-31-08, 12:42 AM	actually compared to what you get normally from classes, it kind of sucks. The main benefit to starting at or near Epic level is the epic feats. some of those feats are HUGE and allow you to do things that break the NORMAL game, such as casting multiple quicken spells or making epic items, and then there are the epic spells that are in another league of there own.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-31-08, 01:31 AM	I recall it posted debated when someone goes epic, so here is the offical word. When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+? A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level. So as I stated before, your HD is the factor for when you 'go epic'. Edit - Keep in mind, a mindflayer with 12 sorcerer levels still cannot take epic feats, or gain epic bonuses to BAB or saves, they are however, fighting epic creatures since their ECL is high enough to. Sucks to be them. A very resonable house rule would be to allow them to buy epic items though, since wealth by level is based on your ECL and since they are fighting epic level stuff in an epic ECL party.
Zog_Jakome 01-31-08, 02:30 PM	wait a second, they are now contradicting themselves. in some areas even in the FAQ they say the you use ECL to determine when you become epic level. this comes from the FAQ page 2 last paragraph Use the character’s ECL to determine starting equipment and how the character earns and benefits from experience (including when he gains an epic attack and save bonus; DMG p. 209), as noted on page 5 of savage Species. Use the actual character level for everything else. I know it may seem like I am breaking some open game rules by posting these but the information provided is a more detailed description of what you can find in open game books. this comes from epic level handbook page 25 second sidebar "Monsters as epic characters" As first introduced in the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign Setting (and discussed in detail in Savage Species), the effective character level (ECL) of any creature more powerful than the standard races in the Player’s Handbook is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice and class levels (if any) plus its level adjustment. This replaces the rule in the Monster Manual that states that a creature’s “monster level” is equal to its Hit Dice. Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its class (rather than the progression shown on Table 1–1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on Table 1–1. In any other place in this book where “character level” is indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a 13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites. Savage Species has level adjustments for most monsters in the Monster Manual. Use these modifiers to estimate appropriate modifiers for other nonstandard PC races that you might choose to include. this is on page 5 of savage species "effective character level" A creature's effective character level is the sum of its level adjustment, hit dice, and class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment, and determining how much experience the character needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions use effective character level instead. this comes from page 209 of DMG "Monsters as epic characters" The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the characters effective character levels. For example a bugbear(3 hit dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus. I read somewhere that when two or more sources contradict each other, the book that dominates are the core rule books (DMG, player's handbook, and monster manual) so because it is in the FAQ twice one answer says one thing and the other says another thing but then refers to a book that says the other thing, I am going with what the FAQ says and Level adjustment does not matter for when you become epic level just as what the savage species says. the only thing it matters for is experience and starting gold/equipment. so I was right the first time before I changed my character.
McPoyo 02-01-08, 10:27 AM	It's really easy to get 33 attacks per round pre-epics all day long, and this was just after Complete Warrior, you know. 12 or more attacks is really nothing.
Zog_Jakome 02-01-08, 02:58 PM	and how do you suppose that is possible? please teach me how to stack what abilities to get 33 attacks per round every round all day long. I suppose it is possible with a combination of great cleave, dervish dance and a thousand cuts but you can't do that every round all day long.
McPoyo 02-01-08, 04:24 PM	Here's an easy way with only 31 attacks, nothing passed CW in release, and single class no ridiculousness, I took it from a friend from another board who posted it long ago. This is all day, keep in mind, and doesn't use ToB or Psionics, no dervish dance, and no cleaving, and used for ease of reference a Thri-Kreen, although any four-armed creature or anything with natural attacks could duplicate this fairly easily. The Rapidstrike thing won't technically work off a Thri-Kreen as-is due to type, but there are easy ways to fix that, and it was just a quick example. You can use secondary natural attacks with a Flurry. You have to use Unarmed Strikes or a Monk Weapon as your primary weapon when using a Flurry, and Flurry can only add attacks to such a weapon. Flurry only adds one attack, regardless of how many weapons you wield (or two attacks with Greater Flurry). However, you are allowed to use two-weapon fighting, or multiweapon fighting if you have more than two arms, with a Flurry of Blows. Your four-armed, four-clawed example, assuming it has the Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting feats, could attack as follows: Primary Unarmed Strike Flurry with MWF penalties: -4/-4 Off-Hand Unarmed Strikes (3): -4 each, so -4/-4/-4 Secondary Natural Claw Attacks (4): -6 each, so -6/-6/-6/-6 If its a Thri-Kreen, Secondary Natural Bite Attack: -6 You are correct in that high BAB cannot increase the number of natural weapon attacks a creature recieves. However, there are feats in the Draconomicon called Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. The first requires a +10 BAB and a certain creature type, must be selected for a specific natural weapon which is at least paired (one bite wouldn't work, but two claws, two wings, four claws, etc. would be fine). That natural weapon attack gains one additional attack/round at a -5 penalty, so the four claw attacks in the above example would be -6/-6/-6/-6/-11. Improved Rapidstrike must be selected for a natural weapon you've selected Rapidstrike for, and requires a +15 BAB. You get additional attacks, each at a -5 from the previous, up to your BAB but never more than four extra attacks. So at a +16 BAB your four claws would be at -6/-6/-6/-6/-11/-16/-21/-26. I don't think you have to specify which individual natural weapon in the set you make the extra attacks with, but you do not gain extra attacks for each natural weapon in the set. With Greater Flurry, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiattack, and a +16 BAB your four-clawed monster will be able to attack as follows, taking the +16 BAB into account: Primary Unarmed Strike, Flurry, MWF penalties included: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1 Off-Hand Unarmed Strikes (3): +14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+4 Secondary Claws (4): +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1 Secondary Bite: +14 Twenty-three attacks per round. If you take Kensai and enchant each of your hands up to +1 Speed, you'd get one extra unarmed strike attack with each and one extra claw attack with each at your highest attack bonus, for a total of thirty-one attacks/round.
BrianMc223 02-01-08, 06:54 PM	If you take Kensai and enchant each of your hands up to +1 Speed, you'd get one extra unarmed strike attack with each and one extra claw attack with each at your highest attack bonus, for a total of thirty-one attacks/round. I didn't actually look into that whole post too hard, but this last statement makes me think that the person who wrote it really doesn't know what they are talking about. That doesn't even remotely work.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 02-01-08, 08:20 PM	Since we're saying BAB grants extra monster attacks. Awakened Octopus Fighter. 8 arms * 4(BAB) = 32 attacks per round. 14 Headed Hydra Fighter 14 heads * 4(BAB) = 56 attacks per round. Lucky monsters don't get extra attacks from BAB huh...
BrianMc223 02-01-08, 09:26 PM	You mis-read him. He is correct that monsters get to use their natural weapons as secondary attacks after they use a normal weapon. Thats about all he got right actually. You can not attack with a natural weapon that has already been used in a round. You can not, for example, attack with two swords, drop them, and use two claw attacks. Any hand you used an unarmed strike with would be ineligible for use as a secondary claw attack. You can't get Rapidstrike as a Thri-Keen. He even said that. You would have to get one of the types allowed, possible, but still a problem. Using twf with flurry is questionable. I get 15 a round if you expend seven feats. You also can't hit anything. You can make it five feats and be able to hit even less. Thats build sucks incredibly hard. The amount of fail in that post is actually impressive.
Zog_Jakome 02-02-08, 03:23 AM	The amount of fail in that post is actually impressive. I knew it was impossible. that and I knew it had to be a four armed creature thing. Using twf with flurry is questionable. according to sage and what the descriptions say, you can stack flurry of blows and two weapon fighting. It is what I do. Here is what I would like to know. someone on another thread asked about how many attacks he got if he has four arms and certain feats. some of the feats only existed in 3.0. I explained to him that you have one primary hand and the rest are off-hands. if you have two weapon fighting you only get the reduction to penalties with two of the weapons primary hand, and one off hand, however multiweapon fighting would reduce penalties on all hands. here's the question actually two questions, If they took multiweapon fighting and two weapon fighting, does the reduction in penalties stack? this I doubt and would not allow it as a DM. so would there be a benefit to taking two weapon fighting. I would say yes, which leads me to my next question. if they took two weapon fighting and then improved two weapon fighting would they get an extra attack with each of their off hands or only one off-hand? I ask this because improved multiweapon fighting doesn't exist and a strict reading of the improved/greater two weapon fighting feats seem to suggest that they do grant an extra attack with each off hand meaning that a four armed monk with multiweapon fighting, and the whole eschelon of two weapon fighting (all the way to perfect two weapon fighting) would get 18 attacks per round, add a kensai with speed weapon ability and you have 19 attacks per round, add a dervish and use one thousand cuts to get 38 attacks once per day. I could very well be wrong in this assessment but if you have a high enough dex score and four arms you should be busting out with that many attacks in one round.
McPoyo 02-02-08, 09:47 AM	First, I'd like to point out that Improved Unarmed Strike is not limited to Hands. In fact, the monk entry specifically states things like knees, elbows, etc in it's entry. So yes, you can claw and flurry at the same time. I'm going to reference the DMG's entry on speed, stating "When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it." and "(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell)". Middle sentence that's not really relevant doesn't apply, and was cropped. I think the key here is "may make one extra attack with it." I have always read the "not cumulative" clause to mean stacking additional attacks in with that weapon. I just copied and pasted that straight over from someone else's posting, and apparently the only potential concern I missed was of the wording on the speed enhancing part. "Natural Attacks" are what are chosen for the Kensai's signature weapon ability if you go that route, and seeing as how most individuals agree that the "Improved Natural Attack" feat (At least I've never seen anyone on these boards speak out against it, so keep that in mind as to my mindset in agreeing on this one) can be applied to a monk's unarmed strike damage they would qualify as Natural Attacks, as well. Granted, the fuzzyness that most DMs would say no one that would be the requiring selection in a specific natural weapon to apply the Focus to, and not just "Natural Attacks" in general, but even so it still would work for multiple claws, especially considering the clause that multiple natural attacks must be enhanced separately, just like a double-weapon. So take 4 attacks off the end result and you get that without any gray fuzziness. Regardless, the 23 attacks per round still holds, just the Kensai Speed craziness doesn't necessarily work straight as posted, but there are ways around that via magic items for enhancing anyhow. Also, the "amount of fail in that post" referencing not hitting anything is based entirely off of BAB only, not any modifiers. Ability enhancements, spells in effect to boost hit, etc, are not factored in, it's pure BAB numbers. By your assessment of that though, that means that iterative attacks by a fighter are worthless as well, since anything below a +15 bab won't hit anyone else in combat as well? Maybe you should read more carefully before criticizing like that, hmm?
BrianMc223 02-02-08, 03:27 PM	McPoyo: Ehh. I guess. You are flat out wrong about speed weapons stacking with each other. Does not work. Speed effects are limited to one a round. No magic item will lets you get around that. Imp Natural attack applies to one type of natural attack. If you have to claws and a bite you would have to take it twice to effect both. You could use an amulet of natural attacks to enchant everything at once. This is one of the only times I've ever seen it be worthwhile. Show me a build. Level 20, with the feats layed out. Tell me your equipment and buffs and for arguments sake you can use 42 point buy. Perhaps when I see it all laid out it won't sound so incredibly awful. I still think it sucks hard. Don't forget the racial hd and la. Zog: The imp and greater versions existed 3.0 in the ELH, and considering that there isn't a real 3.5 set of epic rules I'd just use those. Mechanically they are the same, I don't know why they ooks ok.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 02-02-08, 06:28 PM	I can never get multiquote to work >.< *** About the rule quotes. No matter what WotC has told you to ensure you would buy their book. Savage Species is 3.0, and so is the epic handbook. If there is any rule to comment to how something works in the 3.5 books, it is correct and the 3.0 source is meaningless. As for how the FAQ contridicts its self. Well your stuck Rule Zeroing this, tell us how your DM says it works in his game and we can tailor our selves around that. *** As for optimizing multiple hits. Your going about it entirly in the wrong way. 1d4+5*25 = 2d6+40*4 in raw damage, however for every point of DR the high-damage-nothing-but-full-attack deals 21 more points of damage then the multiattacker. You need SA or other souces of bonus damage to make multiple attacks even be remotely useful at high levels since everything has DR. Until the build is changed (less racial HD, less fighter levels, more rogue/ninja/scout/etc.) there is no optimize in the build.