Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Credex 01-06-04, 09:28 PM	I have been asked to play in a game that a friend is running and i am considering several ideas for a character. I have narrowed my choices down to either a 12th level hafling druid or a 5th level Ranger Hound Archon (7 level adjustment). I really enjoy playing druids and have been able to create some really strong ones in the past. I have also played with Hound Archons and i find them to be strong characters as well. I just want some advice on which is the better way to go. The DM has said we can create whatever characters we want and is starting us off at 90000gp. He said it is going to be a real tough game.
D_Martin 01-06-04, 09:40 PM	The Hound Archon will be more difficult to keep alive, if the DM said it would be a tough campaign. Druids are great spellcasters, but if you have played a lot of Druids, try a Clr, or maybe a Pally. Truth be told, neither one is a bad choice, play whatever you would like to play.
Glide 01-06-04, 10:32 PM	Dont play somthing you have played in the past. Try somthing new. And please don't try to go for the "I made a stong dr00d before and now I can make em stronger!" Make somthing fun, somthing you can really enjoy. A human fighter can be just as enjoyable as a celestial. Really. How about a dwarven drunken master? Or a half-orc who rides a giant toad named "Sanch?" A blink dog with a fear of teleportation? The possiblities are endless, have some fun.
Escef 01-06-04, 11:02 PM	A half-fiend troll. You will be nearly indestructable. ;)
SnowbearK 01-07-04, 01:52 AM	Right up until someone casts Finger of Death. Go with a Faerie Dragon Rogue, or a Half-Green Dragon Imp Ranger (or rogue).
Duskey 01-07-04, 02:46 AM	I've notived that having a DR, SR and at least resistance 5 in each energy is very useful against alot of stuff. I can't recommend any specific builds, but if you wanna try something now, try going deep into character. If you're gonna play drow, then dig up stuff about them all the way back from 1st edition and read it. The same applies for all other races.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-19-04, 08:01 PM	12th level is at the point where lycanthropy is easy. However, what about a human? Humans have tons of skill points, high level class abilities, and lots of HD at ECL 12. That's why I think ECL 0 races are the best.
Vahenir 03-19-04, 08:20 PM	12th Level? Mix it up and actually try playing something not "out there." Humans are awesome. I think someone already stated this, though. Personally, I'd be an Elf, they're just the race I play best. But I enjoy humans as well - and they really are one of the single best races in D&D, barr-none.
elvnsword 03-20-04, 01:49 AM	Well, If you have played both Druids and Hound archon's before, why not try a completely new approach. a lvl 12 can make a wickedly based Ftr Rng... especially ranged based with a magic weapon (talk to the DM about it...) I for one love ranged combat with the bow or heavy CB. I played a Half-orc with a 20 str once, who used a crossbow designed to be a lil stronger then what most could crank, (had to get a DC for it each time I cocked it), but it did double damage on a hit and quad on a critical we called it the Portable Ballista Elvnsword
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-20-04, 10:39 AM	Human Wizard 5/Incantatrix 7 (going for Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5). :devil:
pawnman 03-20-04, 10:43 AM	Fatespinner. I've just always wanted to play one. Rerolls on demand, doesn't get any better than that.
Tha Sage 03-20-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by pawnman Savage Signature If you dont mind, Im going to steal your signature for another board (the Jesus saves part). :D As for a 12th level character... Right now I personally /really/ want to make a Kensai. Id go with Pally 5/Kensai 7 or try out the Dervish. Right now though Im playing a Cleric.
Edymnion 03-21-04, 12:08 AM	A 12th level human fighter that uses a longsword and a shield. You know, so you actually have to come up with an interesting personality, background, and character motivation instead of relying on races and PrC and all that to write the character for you.
Tenzhi 03-21-04, 12:37 AM	Given the choice between the two, I'd take the halfling Druid - just 'cause I like halflings and druids and don't like a whole lot of Level Adjustment.
DevilKiller 03-21-04, 12:47 AM	Don't listen to Edymnion, you don't need to make up a background. Heck, if it is a tough game you'll probably just die off anyhow, so why invest that kind of time in character creation? Just come up with a gimmick that makes you different from all the other 12th level druids out there. Maybe you could be a druid who talks like Cheech Marin and has a great knowledge of "herbs". I guess he could be a halfling, but if so he'd more or less have to wear a huge sombrero and have a burro he rides everywhere as an animal companion. Instead of a hound archon you could be a gnoll who thinks he's a hound archon. Perhaps he'd even think he was a paladin and try to use his holy power to smite evil. Of course this guy would have to have the minimum Int and Wis you could buy or roll, so he'd have plenty of good scores left over for combat stats. If you'd prefer a character who isn't silly, insane, or really weird...hmm...then I don't know what to tell you really, but I was recently thinking about making an accupuncturist with lots of stunning and paralyzing attacks. I just need to find a feat that would let him use stunning fist through shuriken so he could throw little darts into people's pressure points. It also might help to write a PrC I guess.
Tenzhi 03-21-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by DevilKiller Don't listen to Edymnion, you don't need to make up a background. Good advice - the second part, anyway... Edymnion occasionally imparts useful bits of wisdom. Characters don't need backgrounds when they start out. It's much more interesting to fill in the blanks during gameplay as they come up. And if they don't come up then it would have been a waste of time to write them down in the first place.
DevilKiller 03-21-04, 02:29 AM	Ok, "Don't listen to Edymnion" probably wasn't the best way to put that. I just don't think that making generic characters with longwinded background stories is necessary or even especially conducive to good roleplaying. If you feel like writing a ten page background go right ahead. It might be fun. I just don't think it is necessary to having a vibrant and amusing character. I'm not claiming to be a great RP expert or anything, but instead of trying to pschoanalyze your character before he even has his first adventure I suggest getting a few oddball items from the equipment lists and trying to make them part of the story. You'd be surprised at the amount of long term roleplaying potential you can squeeze out of a barrel and a few fishing hooks or a tub of lard and wheel of cheese. I also don't feel that human fighters with longswords, or other Basic D&D style characters, are an inherently better or more satisfying than something a little more unusual. I guess advice to play a human fighter with longsword and shield reminds me of a guy I play with who really hates multiclassing and prestige classes. I love them myself and think they offer people the chance to make characters they always wanted to play which wouldn't work with the rules.
Edymnion 03-21-04, 01:49 PM	Odd that out of personality, motivation, and backgrounds, people jump on the background part. A good background (and by good I just mean a couple of paragraphs) will seriously help you play your character, as it gives you something to build off of. Not talking about a 10 page life history, just something to put down in writing why your character is adventuring, general personality, that sort of thing. Too many times I see on these boards people that seem to think that to play an assassin character the HAVE to have the Assassin PrC. Its not true. Classes and PrC do not define your character, no more than what clothes you wear define who you are. You will almost always have more fun playing a character than just a set of numbers, and those characters will almost always be more memorable.
green_yawgmoth 03-22-04, 11:43 PM	Paragon 1st level fighter. ;)
Amethyst_Rage 03-23-04, 02:42 AM	Originally posted by DevilKiller Don't listen to Edymnion, you don't need to make up a background. DO listen to Edymnion!! For me, at least, the whole point of the game is the 'Role playing' aspect. Without such a thing as background your character may well just be a playing piece in a boardgame. Think about what kind of personality you would like to play, then go for alignment, then perhaps race and finally class(es). Of course, this all depends on the mentality of the group you play with, if they are a bunch of munchkins and do play the game as some rule intensive (and rather dull) boardgame, then you may be swayed to join them. However, it may be that the group is RP intensive and a good background/persona is vital. Either way, whether to fit in with a RP group or to impress your RP skills onto a 'boardgame' group - I would definitly listen to Edymnion. Personally, I have ideas for characters way ahead of actually needing them, I write down my ideas to use at a later time (sometimes years later). My next character is going to be based on an old song called "Camoflauge" (by Stan Ridgeway), if you know the song you could possibly see where my heroic, NG, Gnome Ranger may fit the mold ;) The true art of RPGs is the RP part, the science (the G part) is just used to convey the art. Ooohh! I like that ;)
Edymnion 03-24-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by Amethyst_Rage DO listen to Edymnion!! Yes, Amethyst is very smart, you should listen to her! (I think its a her, if it isn't, well I'll just blame it on being "Politically Correct" or some equal nonsense :P ). :D
Tenzhi 03-25-04, 01:11 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Odd that out of personality, motivation, and backgrounds, people jump on the background part. Possibly because it was the most unnecessary part. Personality is necessary in order to have a memorable character, but plotting out that personality beforehand is unnecessary. Any time I've ever written down a character's personality, during gameplay it turns out that the character has a completely different personality than I thought it would. Motivation is a similar situation. Every character has some sort of motivation, even if it is as simple as "living from day to day." But not every adventurer has or needs a unique, driving motivation like "finding out the truth about my past" or "getting vengeance against the Mage Council of Carthagia." Personally, unless I'm intending for the DM to hang adventure hooks on me and make my character the central part of the story (which for me is almost never as I generally prefer playing Sancho to someone else's Quixote), I just assume my character has a simple motivation but has the misfortune of "living in interesting times." Originally posted by Amethyst_Rage For me, at least, the whole point of the game is the 'Role playing' aspect. A sentiment I wholeheartedly share. I just don't agree that a background write-up or a pre-plotted personality is necessary to the role-playing aspect.
Amethyst_Rage 03-30-04, 01:27 AM	Tenzhi - I require my players to write a background (just a paragraph or so), a personality profile (a short list of key words) and a 'Melodramatic Hook" - basically a motivation thing (taken from an idea from the Feng Shui RPG). I also require the players to have a portrait of their characters. How do these three things serve the player? Simple, it gives the players flavours and guidelines concerning their characters. Alignment, I know, already serves a similar purpose but the personalty profile (keywords) is so much more powerful. How do these three things serve the DM? As you have already mentioned, the DM can plant hooks on the characters but why stop there? Recurring NPCs, significant places and whole adventures can be generated from just a few lines written by a player. This not only serves to make the DMs life easier (in generating adventures and a living breathing campaign world) but also gives him the opportunity to make his games more enriching form his players. Conclusion: Anyone can turn up to a game with a scribbled sheet of numbers, some can manipulate those numbers to 'own' a better 'playing peice' but a real RPer (in my perception of a real RPer) will have carefully thought out character ready to play.
SmiloDan 03-30-04, 10:03 AM	Well, what do you like best about halfling druids and hound archon rangers? The nature bits, the spells, the two weapon fighting, the ranged combat, the animal companion, the skill selection, what? If you really like them, play them. If you feel like something new, try to figure out the aspects of the game you most enjoy. Do you like wading into melee, blasting foes from afar with powerful spells, relying on stealth to sneak past the guards to grab the booty, spending a night at the inn talking to interesting characters while trying to find out the password to palace so you can visit the princess? Right now, I'm having a ton of fun with an elf druid 8. He's an archer, with Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot. It's my first druid, so I'm still learning the most effective spells, and I'm having a blast with my animal companion and wildshaping. I have maxed out Listen and Spot, so I'm also the best scout in the party. He's very versatile. I'm thinking of boosting his Diplomacy next, even though his Cha is 8. I hate using Cha as a dump stat, but I really needed to max Wis and Dex, and have good Str and Con to survive pre-wildshape levels. I could have dumped Int, but Druids really do rely on skills a lot. And it was a 5d6 roll, drop the 2 lowest, so I wasn't able to distribute points around. Oh, well. My current plan is to max out Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot, and start maxing out Diplomacy. I don't think I need more points in Handle Animal, Ride, Survival, or Swim. Maybe learn some new languages if I need to. Do you know what the rest of the party plays? Maybe you could figure out a fun character that fills a needed niche, like healer or sneak thief or people-skills or meat shield or ranged combatant or blaster mage or something. I know if I played a suddenly 12th level character, I would probably want to try out a prestige class or two I've never be able to play before. Or a character concept that was pretty feat intensive, like a spiked-chain cleave-machine or an extremely mobile monk or something. Just do what you think would be fun, since that's the point of the game.
Tenzhi 03-31-04, 02:34 AM	Originally posted by Amethyst_Rage Recurring NPCs, significant places and whole adventures can be generated from just a few lines written by a player. They can just as easily be generated from in-character actions and dialogue. This not only serves to make the DMs life easier (in generating adventures and a living breathing campaign world) but also gives him the opportunity to make his games more enriching form his players. Events heavily based upon pre-written facts and events are often more predictable than those spontaneously generated. A world built on such events, IME, usually feels like a story that's been told a hundred times rather than a "living, breathing campaign world." Anyone can turn up to a game with a scribbled sheet of numbers, some can manipulate those numbers to 'own' a better 'playing peice' but a real RPer (in my perception of a real RPer) will have carefully thought out character ready to play. Likewise, anyone can turn up to a game with a scribbled background and pregenerated personality... and I wouldn't be so arrogant as to call them non-RPers, but some of the best RPers I've known are the masters of improvisation rather than pre-generated ideals.
Amethyst_Rage 03-31-04, 03:46 AM	Tenzhi - A collection of interesting, if somewhat myopic opinions. A part of your opinion is based on the assumption that all players are "masters of improvisation" and it is my opinion, gained from decades of vast experience, that all but a few fall into this category. Likewise, spontaneity is an acquired skill, not all GMs have the ability to remain consistent, whereas a collection of written reference material is a good basis. It does sound to me as if you play your games with an elite group, 'the cream of the crop' if you like, my advice is directed toward players and groups of all skill levels and... I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to assume everyone is a "master" of our hobby. From your informed, if somewhat elitist argument, I can assume that you are a very experienced RPGer but you must have realized by now that there are so many different levels to our game, the True RPers, The Number Crunchers, The Munchkins and the 'I'll go with thems' to name but a few. I have seen my methods inject an atmosphere into my games, which can include all of these (and more) different types of player, of which I am quite happy. Of course I could, if I so wanted, go through your opinions and arguments as you have done to me, but this would serve little purpose with the exception of prolonging our differeing opinion on the matter. My Conclusion: Tenzhi, your opinions are valid only with the assumption that the group is experienced and willing to RP, however my opinion is valid with groups of all and varied experience and in leading poor or non-Rpers along the 'right' path.
Tenzhi 03-31-04, 05:08 AM	Originally posted by Amethyst_Rage A part of your opinion is based on the assumption that all players are "masters of improvisation" and it is my opinion, gained from decades of vast experience, that all but a few fall into this category. A misunderstanding. I'm not assuming that all players are masters of improvisation - I'm saying that some of the ones that are don't deal as well with pre-generated ideals. This is the group you are excluding (and who are excluded by any DM who insists on full-fledged backgrounds and a write-up of personality) - unless I've misunderstood what you've stated thus far. As a DM I don't insist that my players do full write-ups, nor do I discourage it. It does sound to me as if you play your games with an elite group, 'the cream of the crop' if you like I have played (as well as DM'd) with various individuals (never an entire group) over the years who fit that bill (on both sides of the improvisation/written preparation fence), but my current group is made up of a couple of improvisers, and a couple of people who insist on sketching out backgrounds and such in advance - all of whom I would cheesily call "diamonds in the rough." I have seen my methods inject an atmosphere into my games, which can include all of these (and more) different types of player, of which I am quite happy. But what about the player who can't predict exactly how his character will act until he plays it? The player who can't foresee every nook of his character's background from the beginning? My Conclusion: Tenzhi, your opinions are valid only with the assumption that the group is experienced and willing to RP, however my opinion is valid with groups of all and varied experience and in leading poor or non-Rpers along the 'right' path. My opinion is that every individual RPer should be able to find their own 'right' path (as regards character creation in the non-mechanical sense). My path may not be right for them, and yours might not be right for them either - nor should we try to shoehorn them down our paths. This is why I'm always ready to provide the counterpoint that backgrounds aren't necessary for good role-playing, and neither are personality write-ups (an argument I've had most often in regards to White-Wolf games as they place game-mechanical weight on personality). Forgive me if I've exhibited somewhat coarse manners in pursuit of my own idealistic views on this point, but tact was never my strong suit.
Mr.Waesel 03-31-04, 07:47 AM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade Human Wizard 5/Incantatrix 7 (going for Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5). :devil: Exactly! That's what you should be!
MattMart 03-31-04, 10:18 AM	its hard to come up with a 12th level background....thats a lot of story thats being left out...over half if you concider 20th level the end... a good way to set background is to use the charts in the unearthed arcana....good guidelines for determining skill point use and feat selection based on what you've been doing for the past 12 levels.... but i deffinatly agree that if the dm comes right out and says "this is going to be real tough"....just min max it all to the moon... Druid halfling lich....
Amethyst_Rage 03-31-04, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi Forgive me if I've exhibited somewhat coarse manners in pursuit of my own idealistic views on this point, but tact was never my strong suit. [/B] Forgive you? You, my friend, have put up a valiant argument, not at any time was I offended by your manners or your opinion, you do indeed have a valid point (to some degree). There is absolutely nothing to forgive, you have fought your corner well and I salute you for it! I just wish I could meet more people like you in real life, just a discussion on this particular subject could rage for hours and I would enjoy it very much Kudos to you for sticking to your guns (no matter how misguided) ;)
zderad 03-31-04, 02:52 PM	try druid 7/ shifter 5 with the natural spell feat able to cast in any form turn into alot of stuff Make a list of creatures before the game starts so there are no problems later can be much fun