Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trebuchet2112 11-08-04, 03:37 PM	Epic Dwarf Cleric/Warpriest of Thor PC needs to fight an Old Silver Dragon 1 on 1. Ignoring the"silver dragons are good" aspect, what should the PC do?!?!? 1. spend the first few rounds "buffing up", then melee? 2. Straight into melee? 3. Spells at the dragon? the priest has SR 37, and an effect giving him fresh air, so the paralyze gas is nil. Assume the priest has a hammer of thunderbolts with the belt/gauntlet combo unfortunately, most feats are for undead turning. he does have improved initiative, combat casting, martial prof... caster level 17, char level 22 any thoughts/ideas?
Board_Rider 11-08-04, 07:00 PM	Well the Dragon, if played well, should demolish this character. The only thing is the SR. Interesting. I would go with 1, with buffing happening discretely.
Phrennzy 11-08-04, 07:12 PM	You forgot #4: Beg for mercy. Hope that his good alignment comes shining through and he doesn't kill you - because otherwise, that's whats happening. At least he can't jump and crush you. Your gonna be hurting if he can fight you air to ground.
Uber Goblin 11-08-04, 07:13 PM	Look at your surroundings. This is a case of an overmatched CR verses a player. The dragon will crush you if you go toe to toe so you have to outsmart it. Things to do: 1) Make the cave CAVE IN, crush the basterd ( assuming your in a cave) 2) shrink yourself down to small or tiny, or even diminutive. It makes you VERY hard to hit. Since you have fresh air I suggest you enter the dragon's intestinal track then rip him apart from the inside. If he attacks you he has to open up his own belly first, and then you just dig deeper. By the time he caught you, if he ever does before dyeing, he will have a HUGE amount of damage on him. 3) Do you have gate? maybe it is time to make some " arrangements" with a red dragon of higher CR. Get him to agree to be summoned by your spell ( cause summoned creatures, when they die, return to their home plane) so he will have a chance to destroy a force of good with little damage to himself. Perhaps a pact with a Pit Lord? If you go this way prepare to sell your soul, or to have a VERY tricky loophole to exploit when writing up the contract. and on that note, make sure it is with a lawful evil creature :) then you have a contract (at least it is something).
CzarGarrett 11-08-04, 08:35 PM	Find some way to tear the wings. That eliminates flight. Hit and run tactics. Try to get some way of blinking or quick teleportation, and a dragonbane bow. You never mentioned why the priest has to do it alone. Unless its a very, very sacred ceremony or something, get allies.
obrysii 11-08-04, 08:58 PM	Yeah, there's very little that can go toe-to-toe in melee with a dragon. Good luck! Bring lots of potions of fire breath or something of similar affect. It's Reflex saves should be the lowest (considering it's 10 dex).
trebuchet2112 11-09-04, 08:11 AM	the reason he has to go it alone... basically it's a individual trial. I rolled bad, and ended up with Old silver dragon. He has no horde of treasure, and there will be no diplomacy or begging for mercy. I open the door, and "poof" there is a dragon that wants to destroy the cleric. dragons' breath spell sounds good. Silvers are sensitive to fire arent they?
Enalung 11-09-04, 01:42 PM	Bluff yourself before you open the door.
Uber Goblin 11-09-04, 02:20 PM	POOF? so he is a spell? a summoned dragon? Can he be banished or dispelled? OR CHARMED! charm him then cuddle up with him and "take a nap" with your new freind. When it's sleeping CUT ITS THROAT!
trebuchet2112 11-09-04, 03:07 PM	POOF? so he is a spell? a summoned dragon? Can he be banished or dispelled? OR CHARMED! charm him then cuddle up with him and "take a nap" with your new freind. When it's sleeping CUT ITS THROAT! he isnt summoned as with a spell. Right now I am thinking my best course of action might be to cast Fire storm on round one(17d6).(old dragon= SR26, my caster level is 17+2 for spell penetration) I would only have to roll a 7 or better. Then cast Miracle to greater teleport into his stomach, and start blasting away with the hammer of thunderbolts
Uber Goblin 11-09-04, 03:18 PM	the stomach has acid in it ( I have done that little thing :D ) and also a DM might rule his breath is in his stomach, the large intestines are nice and close to the kidneys and other vitals. Heh heh, last time I had to fight a dragon I got to his ****, pulled out his intestines and rapped them around an immoveable rod and pressed the button WHILE he was midflight. It was only a huge white dragon, but DAMN it was funny! I laughed for an hour after that.... I love rogues...
Phrennzy 11-09-04, 03:59 PM	I sincerely doubt you can teleport into the stomach of a dragon, since dragons do not have the swallow ability. Since the dragon is a magical creature, perhaps the dragons stomach is as hot as a remorhaz back, or, since the Silver breaths Freezing Cold, perhaps it is chock full of frost that cause as much damage. Not to mention that if you could teleport into his stomach, then he can easily barf you up - probably breathing his breath weapon all over you. If you have Miracle, why not try Harm. 150 or 75 points is pretty good. Of course, he'll still slaughter you.
trebuchet2112 11-09-04, 04:05 PM	I sincerely doubt you can teleport into the stomach of a dragon, since dragons do not have the swallow ability. Since the dragon is a magical creature, perhaps the dragons stomach is as hot as a remorhaz back, or, since the Silver breaths Freezing Cold, perhaps it is chock full of frost that cause as much damage. Not to mention that if you could teleport into his stomach, then he can easily barf you up - probably breathing his breath weapon all over you. If you have Miracle, why not try Harm. 150 or 75 points is pretty good. Of course, he'll still slaughter you. actually dragons can take the swallow whole feat. As far as stomach contents go, I think intestine might be a better choice. I was thinking Implosion as well, but fortitude negates...
Phrennzy 11-09-04, 04:18 PM	I still wouldn't allow it, as you would be teleporting into a solid object - that is, there may not be room in the stomach for you, and there DEFINATELY isn't room in the intestines. Sure, they could stretch around you, but You can't teleport in until they have already stretched to accomadate you. Also, I wouldn't award extra damage for stomach attacks. The AC would be lower, but the acid would be crazy because dragons will eat anything - including metal and gems - so its dissolve city. Could you use the Miracle to Polymorph/Shapechange into another Dragon?
Vanigo 11-09-04, 04:37 PM	Do you have time to pray for new spells? If not, what spells do you have available? If so, what books do you have available? Exactly what level are you? What noteworthy magic items do you have? What feats? You have no chance in a straight-up fight, but you should have access to some spells that will make it less straight-up if you've got time to prepare. I'd say use shivering touch, but a silver dragon has the cold subtype, so it's immune. Lower spell resistance/spell vulnerability would be handy, but hard to get off due to the 1-round casting time. Suppress breath weapon isn't worth the round, since you can just use energy immunity (cold) for much the same benefit. Fell the greatest foe would be helpful if you get forced into melee, but it's not enough to even the odds. All the miss chance stuff you can get your hands on. A simple displacement or blink effect would do wonders in terms of not dying too fast. Wall of stone is always handy, especially since the dragon needs much more room to manuver than you do. If you can do ability damage or drain without allowing a fortitude or will save, that's probably your best bet for killing it. Just 10 points of dexterity damage leaves a silver dragon helpless and vulnerable to as many CdGs as it takes. Remember, ability score reductions won't work, since they don't stack, and most of them can't reduce a score below 1. You need ability damage or drain. Be ready to heal yourself repeatedly. Freedom of movement. Nothing says "You die" like being grappled by a dragon. Summon monster 9. It may be hard to believe, but CR 11 elder elementals can go toe-to-toe with a dragon and not die in the first round, thanks to their DR 10/- and decent con modifiers. Unless the dragon has Power Attack, that is. I recommend elder fire elementals. They do the most damage to the dragon, and their vulnerability to its breath weapon is partially offset by their incredible +23 reflex save bonus. (They need a 7 or better to save.) Pair this with aura of evasion, and they can last quite a while. (All elementals are immune to paralysis, so don't worry about that.)
Aluroon 11-09-04, 05:17 PM	Use shapechange to become a gold dragon. Blast away at him with breath weapons. He takes double from fire... Aluroon
trebuchet2112 11-10-04, 12:50 PM	Use shapechange to become a gold dragon. Blast away at him with breath weapons. He takes double from fire... Aluroon Can't use shape change. Miracle only gives access to 7th level and lower mage spells. IIRC shapechange is 9th level. I do however have the spell dragon's breath... hmmm
Vanigo 11-10-04, 03:34 PM	I do however have the spell dragon's breath... hmmmYou mean through miracle, right? Last time I checked, that was a Sor/Wiz only spell. It's also probably not your best option. 9d6 fire damage is nice, but you ought to have better things to do with your time, and being within 60 feet of this thing is definetly something you should try to avoid. You didn't answer my questions, by the way. They're rather critically important; I don't want to go on a full-fledged book trawl if you can't get new spells anyway.
BloodGod 11-10-04, 04:07 PM	What items do you have? Buff yourself, "Shrink", Teleport onto it's back or head, Harm until no longer necessary, Flame Strike to finish it. If it has taken flight by the end of it be sure to Teleport to the ground before it crashes. Certain spells in the Draconomican would be good for this too.I'd have to look up the spells exactly. But, here's a plan, depending on if you get the chance to pray or not. Buff. Shrink. Dimension Door (Travel Domain.Various Magic Items). Lower its SR. Harm>. Flame Strike. Word of Recall. Good luck. -BG
Derren S. 11-10-04, 05:10 PM	And while you on its back suffer full attacks from the dragon or even a grapple... And using lower SR is nearly impossible because of close reach and 1 round casting time.
trebuchet2112 11-10-04, 05:23 PM	You mean through miracle, right? Last time I checked, that was a Sor/Wiz only spell. It's also probably not your best option. 9d6 fire damage is nice, but you ought to have better things to do with your time, and being within 60 feet of this thing is definetly something you should try to avoid. You didn't answer my questions, by the way. They're rather critically important; I don't want to go on a full-fledged book trawl if you can't get new spells anyway. Dragon's breath is listed in the complete divine. As far as the other questions, I am not sure if he will be able to "customize" his spells available. noteworthy items: a luckblade w/ 3 wishes, hammer of thunderbolts,belt of giant str+5 gauntlets of ogre power. ring of prot, couple others I cant remember( I dont have the sheet, the DM does. ) As far as feats, improved initiative; martial proficiency, focus warhammer, extra turningX2; disciple of the sun; quicken turning. I cant remember the rest right now.
Vorgoth 11-10-04, 06:23 PM	If the dragon is using a flyby attack the coolest thing I have seen done is a cleric readied an action to cast wall of stone right in front of it. A flying dragon smacking into a stone wall not only stops the dragon from flying but it can do some pretty good damage to it too. Just don't stand behind the wall when the dragon hits it.
Ogmug 11-10-04, 06:33 PM	Dragon's breath is listed in the complete divine. As far as the other questions, I am not sure if he will be able to "customize" his spells available. noteworthy items: a luckblade w/ 3 wishes, hammer of thunderbolts,belt of giant str+5 gauntlets of ogre power. ring of prot, couple others I cant remember( I dont have the sheet, the DM does. ) As far as feats, improved initiative; martial proficiency, focus warhammer, extra turningX2; disciple of the sun; quicken turning. I cant remember the rest right now. just a fyi Unless i am mistaken, you can't use both belt of giant strenght and gauntlets of ogre power. Both use enhancement bonus as the type of bonus it applies.
Mizik 11-10-04, 06:56 PM	the weakest part of a dragon is its dextarity (which is only adverage) In all the dragon slaying threads out there the most efective way to kill a dragon is to render it helpless (dex = 0) then finish it off. If you force it to surnender or incompacitate it you could bind it to you with a quest spell or some thing similar. But the quickest way to defeat it is use spells and/or poison that damage or drain dex. Ps. if you can incompacitate the dragon but not kill it try too. after all the dragon would own you its life. Just make sure it won't try to kill you again if you spare it.
trebuchet2112 11-10-04, 09:16 PM	just a fyi Unless i am mistaken, you can't use both belt of giant strenght and gauntlets of ogre power. Both use enhancement bonus as the type of bonus it applies. read the errata for hammer of thunderbolts. If the PC knows what the hammer is, it becomes +5 and the belt, and gauntlets stack their bonuses.
Derren S. 11-11-04, 01:11 AM	If the dragon is using a flyby attack the coolest thing I have seen done is a cleric readied an action to cast wall of stone right in front of it. A flying dragon smacking into a stone wall not only stops the dragon from flying but it can do some pretty good damage to it too. Just don't stand behind the wall when the dragon hits it. You have to create the wall on the ground where it is unlikely that the dragon will crash into it.
Phrennzy 11-11-04, 07:54 PM	Do you have to KILL it? Or can you win if it surrenders? If surrender is an option, try Charm spells to Suggest that it surrender so that it comes to no harm.
PhaedrusXY 11-11-04, 08:17 PM	You're an Epic cleric. You should know how to play your character better than we do. But this is the best suggestion I've seen so far.In all the dragon slaying threads out there the most efective way to kill a dragon is to render it helpless (dex = 0) then finish it off. If you force it to surnender or incompacitate it you could bind it to you with a quest spell or some thing similar. But the quickest way to defeat it is use spells and/or poison that damage or drain dex.Use an Antilife Shell to keep it from mauling you physically. You still have to worry about it's Spell Resistance, but at least there is no saving throw. Make sure you have some way of keeping it from grappling/snatching you. The Freedom of Movement spell (automatically succeed at grapple checks), a Ring of Blinking, and other modes of teleportation work well. I think there is a spell that makes you incorporeal too, but I can't remember the name or the book it's in. It would be worth using that even if you have to emulate it with a Miracle.
Vanigo 11-11-04, 09:40 PM	You're an Epic cleric. You should know how to play your character better than we do. But this is the best suggestion I've seen so far.Use an Antilife Shell to keep it from mauling you physically. You still have to worry about it's Spell Resistance, but at least there is no saving throw. Make sure you have some way of keeping it from grappling/snatching you. The Freedom of Movement spell (automatically succeed at grapple checks), a Ring of Blinking, and other modes of teleportation work well. I think there is a spell that makes you incorporeal too, but I can't remember the name or the book it's in. It would be worth using that even if you have to emulate it with a Miracle. Yeah, dex damage is your best bet if you can find a way to do it. Off the top of my head, though, I can't think of one that would work on the dragon. Poison is out of the question due to the dragon's phenomenal fort save. Shivering touch would probably bring it down in one hit if it didn't have the [Cold] subtype, which makes it immune. I think there might be something in the BoVD, but that probably has the [Evil] descriptor, so he can't use it.
Vanigo 11-11-04, 09:54 PM	Dragon's breath is listed in the complete divine. Oh, I see. I was looking at the one in the Draconomicon, which is vastly superior. The CD version... definetly don't bother. If you're close enough to hit it with a 15-foot cone of fire, you're close enough to be turned into a gooey red paste on the dragon's turn. Besides, 8d8 fire damage (reflex half) is a waste of a turn anyway.
PhaedrusXY 11-11-04, 10:12 PM	Hmm... how about this: 1) Miracle to emulate Limited Wish to produce this effect: taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw. 2) Then (Heigtened) Bestow Curse (-6 to Dex). Repeat until it fails it's save. 3) Then Miracle to emulate Waves of Exhaustion. (No save, SR applies). The effects of Exhaustion are as follows: Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.If you have or can get your hands on a Strand of Prayer Beads with a Karma Bead, use it before this fight to boost your caster level and help beating his SR.
Vorgoth 11-11-04, 11:25 PM	You have to create the wall on the ground where it is unlikely that the dragon will crash into it. It doesnt have to be on the ground, it can be coming from any other stone structure that can support it. i.e. a cliffside, an existing stone wall, etc. The only reason you would use this tactic is if the dragon is doing fly-by attacks which would mean it would come reasonably low to the ground to hit you. So it shouldn't be a problem.
cryptictravler 11-11-04, 11:55 PM	Ok, The best way to defeat him is going to be good spell choice. I see few good options: Attrition First round anti-life shell. Then energy immunity cold. Proceed to cast big damage ranged touch spells or maybe just flame strike. Blow it all in a hope to survive Cast gate. Yeah you just blew 5,000 xp, but the dragon dies.
Wolf72 11-12-04, 10:57 AM	and what if the dragon win's initiative? ... and old dragon has 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, and 1 tail slap ... all at a pretty decent BAB. the dragon may not have swallow whole listed, but I'd rule the dmg done from inside as that ability. a normal PC doesn't have it either, but if they swallowed a bug sized bad guy I'd give the bug sized BG the same chances as a human being swallowed by a t-rex. buff for HP and AC and hack at 'em! ... the DM might roll bad.
trebuchet2112 11-15-04, 06:43 AM	OK! first of all, thanks for all the ideas. We played out the scenario last night. It only took three rounds. Iwill post the results after I get into work. :D
trebuchet2112 11-15-04, 10:13 AM	The deciding factor (in my opinion) was that the Cleric won initiative. :P Round 1: Cleric casts miracle to access Otto's iresistable dance (bard 6) Beats the dragon's SR with a roll of 4, no Save allowed. Rolls a 4 for a total of 5 rounds of effect. Dragon's turn, cleric gets AoO; hits with hammer of thunderbolts for 4d6 +32 (or something) Round 2: Cleric casts miracle to access fire seeds(druid 6) no SR/no save succeeds on ranged touch attack causing (20d6+20) X 1.5 (fire damage) Dragon's turn, cleric gets AoO; hits with hammer of thunderbolts for 4d6 +32 (or something) Round 3: Cleric casts fire storm (cleric 8) beats dragon's SR with a 6, and dragon fails Reflex save (-10 because of dance) for (20d6) X 1.5 Dragon's turn, cleric gets AoO; hits with hammer of thunderbolts for 4d6 +32 (or something) sending the Dragon to beyond -11 hp Fight over :D Cleric 12 / war priest 10: Caster level 17 +4 (practiced spellcaster) Any opinions/thoughts?
GaffeR 11-15-04, 02:23 PM	Way to show that oversized gecko who's boss! :clap:
Phrennzy 11-15-04, 03:33 PM	You were able to move up and touch the dragon in the first round? How far did you guys start from each other? That's crazy...
trebuchet2112 11-15-04, 06:23 PM	You were able to move up and touch the dragon in the first round? How far did you guys start from each other? That's crazy... It was "you open the door, and there is a old silver dragon that wants to kill you right in front of you" When I said "The deciding factor (in my opinion) was that the Cleric won initiative" I wasnt joking. He was going to full attack me in round 1
PhaedrusXY 11-15-04, 08:44 PM	LOL, nice! A dancing dragon! I didn't think of Otto's, heh. I feel a bit vindicated from when a dragon cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter on me and then took my sword away and stuck me in a big bird cage in 2nd edition once. My ranger's next species enemy was dragon after that. :P
Draconiss 11-15-04, 09:30 PM	Read the Webarticle about enhancement bonus', the Belt of giant str and gloves of ogre str DO NOT STACK. Specifically says they don't because its the same bonus, the higher one is only effective. You can't have multiple of same type of bonus, in this case both are a STR enhancement bonus. If one was just an unnamed bonus and the other an enhancement bonus then its all good. Read the series "Does it stack?" and see for yourself. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a
obrysii 11-15-04, 10:05 PM	and what if the dragon win's initiative? ... and old dragon has 1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, and 1 tail slap ... all at a pretty decent BAB. If it's hovering, it's got 1 bite, 4 claws, 2 wings, and a tail slap. Plus, it probably has Improved Natural Attack for at least it's bite...probably Multiattack...and probably Rapidstrike which gives one of its natural attacks another attack. Oh, it probably has Haste up... So 4 bites (one at a -2 penality, all four treated as one size larger), 4 claw attacks, 2 wing attacks, and a tail slap...all within -2 attack bonus.
Arkat 11-15-04, 11:10 PM	Read the Webarticle about enhancement bonus', the Belt of giant str and gloves of ogre str DO NOT STACK. Specifically says they don't because its the same bonus, the higher one is only effective. You can't have multiple of same type of bonus, in this case both are a STR enhancement bonus. If one was just an unnamed bonus and the other an enhancement bonus then its all good. Read the series "Does it stack?" and see for yourself. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a Hey genius...read the Hammer of Thunderbolts description (it's a Minor Artifact) in the DM's Guide before you start spouting off.
Phrennzy 11-15-04, 11:37 PM	Now now ladies, play nice.
trebuchet2112 11-16-04, 12:07 AM	Read the Webarticle about enhancement bonus', the Belt of giant str and gloves of ogre str DO NOT STACK. Specifically says they don't because its the same bonus, the higher one is only effective. You can't have multiple of same type of bonus, in this case both are a STR enhancement bonus. If one was just an unnamed bonus and the other an enhancement bonus then its all good. Read the series "Does it stack?" and see for yourself. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a Read the description for Hammer of thunderbolts. "Hammer of Thunderbolts: This +3 Large returning warhammer deals 4d6 points of damage on any hit. Further, if the wielder wears a belt of giant Strength and gauntlets of ogre power and he knows that the hammer is a hammer of thunderbolts (not just a +3 warhammer), the weapon can be used to full effect: It gains a total +5 enhancement bonus, allows all belt and gauntlet bonuses to stack (only when using this weapon)" OK?
Aluroon 11-16-04, 05:15 PM	Read the Webarticle about enhancement bonus', the Belt of giant str and gloves of ogre str DO NOT STACK. Specifically says they don't because its the same bonus, the higher one is only effective. You can't have multiple of same type of bonus, in this case both are a STR enhancement bonus. If one was just an unnamed bonus and the other an enhancement bonus then its all good. Read the series "Does it stack?" and see for yourself. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a :clap: :clap: :clap: Nice job, you just went though and looked that up for no reason. Furthermore you have just made a fool of yourself by pointing out to everyone that you didn’t read the entire thread. :heehee :heehee :heehee :heehee Draconiss, how about you look at what has been said several times. He is using a hammer of thunderbolts. In the description it specifically states that the hammer allows them both to stack. Therefore, you are incorrect, and all the web links in the world are not going to change that. Have a nice day. Now everyone, back to the :pint: . He won! Aluroon
trebuchet2112 11-16-04, 05:36 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: Nice job, you just went though and looked that up for no reason. Furthermore you have just made a fool of yourself by pointing out to everyone that you didn’t read the entire thread. :heehee :heehee :heehee :heehee Draconiss, how about you look at what has been said several times. He is using a hammer of thunderbolts. In the description it specifically states that the hammer allows them both to stack. Therefore, you are incorrect, and all the web links in the world are not going to change that. Have a nice day. Now everyone, back to the :pint: . He won! Aluroon speaking of hammers... sounds like you just dropped a big hammer! :shocked: Thanks for the drinks! ( one of my friends is now calling me "3 round" )