1st Edition and the Silence spell ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

1st Edition and the Silence spell ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Wicked_Truth
03-14-07, 07:46 PM Not sure if this is the right spot to post this, but couldnt find a better place.

My question has multiple parts, ill explain the situation first.

I am playing a Human Cleric. I had just recently lvled up so that i could take my 2nd Lvl cleric spells. I chose Silence as one of those spells. During the next game session for my action i chose to cast Silence to stop the bad guy from casting on me and my party.

Now comes the problem !

The DM interupts game play and goes on and on about how this 2nd lvl spell is way to powerful to be available at 2nd lvl. He decides he is going to move it to be a 7th lvl cleric spell, tells me i lost my spell slot and cant pick another spell out till after the game session. In response to me being not happy with these abrupt changes to my character my DM than gives me a choice between some weapons, one of which is what i chose to take was the Hammer of Thunderbolts! The DM than tells me at the end of the game session that i will probably never get ahold of the Gaultlets of Ogre power or the Girdle of Giant strength now that i have the Hammer.

My questions!

1. Does anyone else think this is to powerful for a 2nd Level Cleric? if so why?

2. Does anyone think this was not handled poorly? If so why?

3. Can someone tell me why the Silence spell is over powered but giving me the Hammer of Thunderbolts is not?

4. Any other comments on this situation that i can take to my DM?
AndrewD2
03-14-07, 08:09 PM I don't think it's too powerful, sure it's got long range and a 20ft radius emanation, but it's a 2nd level spell that offers a will save to negate, unless you have an isanely high wisdom, the save won't be that high, if we assume you have an 18 your DC what? a 16? Against another spellcaster they'd likely make their save.
CaoSlayer
03-14-07, 08:39 PM Show your dm what can do the same level spell hold person, spell that also will prevent the enemy for casting any spell and give other players the chance to coup de grace him. Silence is nearly in the same leage that hold person but hold person is better because have uses in every kind of enemy in place of only casters and silence targets casters good will save.

Then show him level 3 spells, bestow curse in a caster with a stat 16 in this casting stat will make him unnable to cast any spell. Blindness is fort save and will make the caster unnable to target any spell. Those spells are sighly better than silence.

And higher level spells makes things worse, it is plain dumb using a level 7 slot for silencing a caster when you can use a level 5 slot with slay the living for killing it outright or a level 6 spell with harm for dealing massive damage.

Tell your DM the spell is not worth being a higher level because there are way better spells at those levels.
Prator_the_Legendary
03-14-07, 09:00 PM ...He won't let you cast a non-crippling spell with an easy DC... but he will give you a minor artifact at lvl 3ish. Your DM is a raving madman. You should have him committed immediately.
Hinthas
03-14-07, 10:12 PM Funny you should mention this.

I'm an "old-timer", meaning that I've been playing AD&D since Summer of 1985. Call me silly or even blasphemous, but I PREFER to play 1st ed. AD&D. PREFER it. This is not an attempt to bash 3rd ed., 3.5 ed., or Infinity ed. I bring this up to illustrate the differences in Thinking.

MY understanding of the current edition of our game relies on the concept of prerequsite skills, progressive powers, and a bit of Munchkinism when skillfully or creatively exploiting the rules.

Munchkins have ALWAYS existed. They sometimes change what side of the dice that they're on, but the desire to "be the best" in spite of the group's fun is constant.

The fact that you were able to skillfully counter what the DM threw at you should be commended NOT punished. It seriously annoys me to no end when a player has a character that's a spellcaster or cleric and CAN'T CAST THIER WAY OUT OF A PAPER BAG!!!!!! :headexplo

This also suggests to me that maybe the DM isn't being Fair and Impartial. I learned that the "Fun Storyline" is more important than dice rolls or being right.

People don't Plan to Fail. They Fail to Plan. Perhaps he'll reconsider having a non-verbal spell list around. Seems the best alternative.

But for you Wicked Truth:
Good show, man. Good show!!!:clap: :w00t: :clap:

Silencing Liches for years,
Doug
solbergb
03-14-07, 10:21 PM 1. Silence has always been a second level spell, even in the basic set (can't speak for Chainmail, that was about a year before my time) and has always been extraordinarily powerful at shutting down casters and letting parties sneak up on people. Like a few other spells, such as magic missile, it just isn't D&D without the silence spell. Because it "just works" it's quite powerful, but all it does in combat is block verbal components.

2. Introduce the judge to "Battlefield control" spells. As a rule they do something nasty even if you make a save and many have no saves. The L2 spell in this category is "Web". low strength/dex characters have a heck of a time escaping it and it also interferes with spellcasting. At other levels, solid fog, wall of force, reverse gravity, etc all have one thing in common - no save, no SR, and they just plain work. Silence is a low level spell of this type, except instead of blocking movement it interferes with spellcasting. If he hates the concept of
things with no saves that just plain work, he might as well start learning about all the other things in D&D like this. Higher level cleric spells along the same lines include the Holy Word line of spells (SR helps at least), wall of stone, invisibility purge, freedom of movement, death ward and find the path. Tabletop D&D isn't like a CRPG - there are a lot of things that "just work" but there are also a lot of counters to them. Spellcasting isn't supposed to be automatic, and never
has been. Components are a weakness, and removing silence spell pretty much means verbal compnents are automatic for any character that isn't pinned or polymorphed.

2. The whole hammer of thunderbolts thing screams "newbie DM". Expect an uneven campaign with a fairly random ruleset, as his perception of game balance will have not much to do with actual game balance.. However, you have to start somewhere....maybe he'll improve if you let him practice on your group and give constructive feedback. Don't take the hammer of thunderbolts. Instead just pick some other useful spell from the L2 mix (calm emotions, sound burst or hold person are good if your DC's are nice, spiritual weapon can be ok if your party is a little weak on ranged offense, etc). Make sure his enemy clerics (and bards) also lack the silence spell until they're 13th level (I'm guessing it could be a L5-6 bard spell if he's pegging it as a L7 cleric spell) and go with it.
draco1119
03-15-07, 12:28 AM 3. Can someone tell me why the Silence spell is over powered but giving me the Hammer of Thunderbolts is not?
Because your DM is a pinhead. That's the only explanation needed.

As for what to say to said pinhead to allow Silence as a 2nd lvl spell? "Ya know, Richard. The bad guys are allowed to cast it, too."
fatal error
03-15-07, 12:50 AM Silence doesn't allow a save, unless you're actually casting it on the guy himself. Cast it on a floor tile next to him, or a rock at his feet. And no, it isn't overpowered, because either A) he gets a save, or B) he can run away from the inanimate object you centered the spell on. Plus C) he could: A) apply Silent Spell to a couple spells, B) do something other than cast, C) not have the key to every encounter be a caster.

And yes, your DM handled the situation badly.
Varia
03-15-07, 07:55 AM He DID say its a 1.0 game. Why are you all replying with 3.5 info? /bonk!

The DM is out of his mind, in all ways. Its fine as a second level spell. There's a save if cast on an unwilling person, and they can just move away if its not cast directly on them. It can be dispelled, or you can cast vocalize to get around it. And worst come to worst, you can run away. Plus, of course, the enemy can cast it too, and should.

The hammer is carefully selected to sound uber, but actually BE meaningless. Unless youre over 6 feet tall and have at least an 18/01 strength you cant use it at all, and clerics dont get percentile strength. And he sounds like just the kind of malignant loser to have known that full well when he gave it to you. He's probably even aware enough to be sure there isnt another character in the party that DOES have the needed stats so you cant give it to them instead where even without the girdle/gauntlets it would be a good weapon for quite a while. You dont have a person with that kind of strength in the party, do you? Bet he wont let you sell it for anything worthwhile either. The whole "now you'll never see gauntlets or a girdle in this campaign" is just being a richard, and to the whole party, not just you.

I think its hammergun time.
Hinthas
03-15-07, 02:05 PM Even this was geared towards 3rd ed., it still applies to our game in general.

Antagonistic DM's VS. Cooperative Dm's
http://www.thetangledweb.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=2

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Wicked_Truth 03-14-07, 07:46 PM	Not sure if this is the right spot to post this, but couldnt find a better place. My question has multiple parts, ill explain the situation first. I am playing a Human Cleric. I had just recently lvled up so that i could take my 2nd Lvl cleric spells. I chose Silence as one of those spells. During the next game session for my action i chose to cast Silence to stop the bad guy from casting on me and my party. Now comes the problem ! The DM interupts game play and goes on and on about how this 2nd lvl spell is way to powerful to be available at 2nd lvl. He decides he is going to move it to be a 7th lvl cleric spell, tells me i lost my spell slot and cant pick another spell out till after the game session. In response to me being not happy with these abrupt changes to my character my DM than gives me a choice between some weapons, one of which is what i chose to take was the Hammer of Thunderbolts! The DM than tells me at the end of the game session that i will probably never get ahold of the Gaultlets of Ogre power or the Girdle of Giant strength now that i have the Hammer. My questions! 1. Does anyone else think this is to powerful for a 2nd Level Cleric? if so why? 2. Does anyone think this was not handled poorly? If so why? 3. Can someone tell me why the Silence spell is over powered but giving me the Hammer of Thunderbolts is not? 4. Any other comments on this situation that i can take to my DM?
AndrewD2 03-14-07, 08:09 PM	I don't think it's too powerful, sure it's got long range and a 20ft radius emanation, but it's a 2nd level spell that offers a will save to negate, unless you have an isanely high wisdom, the save won't be that high, if we assume you have an 18 your DC what? a 16? Against another spellcaster they'd likely make their save.
CaoSlayer 03-14-07, 08:39 PM	Show your dm what can do the same level spell hold person, spell that also will prevent the enemy for casting any spell and give other players the chance to coup de grace him. Silence is nearly in the same leage that hold person but hold person is better because have uses in every kind of enemy in place of only casters and silence targets casters good will save. Then show him level 3 spells, bestow curse in a caster with a stat 16 in this casting stat will make him unnable to cast any spell. Blindness is fort save and will make the caster unnable to target any spell. Those spells are sighly better than silence. And higher level spells makes things worse, it is plain dumb using a level 7 slot for silencing a caster when you can use a level 5 slot with slay the living for killing it outright or a level 6 spell with harm for dealing massive damage. Tell your DM the spell is not worth being a higher level because there are way better spells at those levels.
Prator_the_Legendary 03-14-07, 09:00 PM	...He won't let you cast a non-crippling spell with an easy DC... but he will give you a minor artifact at lvl 3ish. Your DM is a raving madman. You should have him committed immediately.
Hinthas 03-14-07, 10:12 PM	Funny you should mention this. I'm an "old-timer", meaning that I've been playing AD&D since Summer of 1985. Call me silly or even blasphemous, but I PREFER to play 1st ed. AD&D. PREFER it. This is not an attempt to bash 3rd ed., 3.5 ed., or Infinity ed. I bring this up to illustrate the differences in Thinking. MY understanding of the current edition of our game relies on the concept of prerequsite skills, progressive powers, and a bit of Munchkinism when skillfully or creatively exploiting the rules. Munchkins have ALWAYS existed. They sometimes change what side of the dice that they're on, but the desire to "be the best" in spite of the group's fun is constant. The fact that you were able to skillfully counter what the DM threw at you should be commended NOT punished. It seriously annoys me to no end when a player has a character that's a spellcaster or cleric and CAN'T CAST THIER WAY OUT OF A PAPER BAG!!!!!! :headexplo This also suggests to me that maybe the DM isn't being Fair and Impartial. I learned that the "Fun Storyline" is more important than dice rolls or being right. People don't Plan to Fail. They Fail to Plan. Perhaps he'll reconsider having a non-verbal spell list around. Seems the best alternative. But for you Wicked Truth: Good show, man. Good show!!!:clap: :w00t: :clap: Silencing Liches for years, Doug
solbergb 03-14-07, 10:21 PM	1. Silence has always been a second level spell, even in the basic set (can't speak for Chainmail, that was about a year before my time) and has always been extraordinarily powerful at shutting down casters and letting parties sneak up on people. Like a few other spells, such as magic missile, it just isn't D&D without the silence spell. Because it "just works" it's quite powerful, but all it does in combat is block verbal components. 2. Introduce the judge to "Battlefield control" spells. As a rule they do something nasty even if you make a save and many have no saves. The L2 spell in this category is "Web". low strength/dex characters have a heck of a time escaping it and it also interferes with spellcasting. At other levels, solid fog, wall of force, reverse gravity, etc all have one thing in common - no save, no SR, and they just plain work. Silence is a low level spell of this type, except instead of blocking movement it interferes with spellcasting. If he hates the concept of things with no saves that just plain work, he might as well start learning about all the other things in D&D like this. Higher level cleric spells along the same lines include the Holy Word line of spells (SR helps at least), wall of stone, invisibility purge, freedom of movement, death ward and find the path. Tabletop D&D isn't like a CRPG - there are a lot of things that "just work" but there are also a lot of counters to them. Spellcasting isn't supposed to be automatic, and never has been. Components are a weakness, and removing silence spell pretty much means verbal compnents are automatic for any character that isn't pinned or polymorphed. 2. The whole hammer of thunderbolts thing screams "newbie DM". Expect an uneven campaign with a fairly random ruleset, as his perception of game balance will have not much to do with actual game balance.. However, you have to start somewhere....maybe he'll improve if you let him practice on your group and give constructive feedback. Don't take the hammer of thunderbolts. Instead just pick some other useful spell from the L2 mix (calm emotions, sound burst or hold person are good if your DC's are nice, spiritual weapon can be ok if your party is a little weak on ranged offense, etc). Make sure his enemy clerics (and bards) also lack the silence spell until they're 13th level (I'm guessing it could be a L5-6 bard spell if he's pegging it as a L7 cleric spell) and go with it.
draco1119 03-15-07, 12:28 AM	3. Can someone tell me why the Silence spell is over powered but giving me the Hammer of Thunderbolts is not? Because your DM is a pinhead. That's the only explanation needed. As for what to say to said pinhead to allow Silence as a 2nd lvl spell? "Ya know, Richard. The bad guys are allowed to cast it, too."
fatal error 03-15-07, 12:50 AM	Silence doesn't allow a save, unless you're actually casting it on the guy himself. Cast it on a floor tile next to him, or a rock at his feet. And no, it isn't overpowered, because either A) he gets a save, or B) he can run away from the inanimate object you centered the spell on. Plus C) he could: A) apply Silent Spell to a couple spells, B) do something other than cast, C) not have the key to every encounter be a caster. And yes, your DM handled the situation badly.
Varia 03-15-07, 07:55 AM	He DID say its a 1.0 game. Why are you all replying with 3.5 info? /bonk! The DM is out of his mind, in all ways. Its fine as a second level spell. There's a save if cast on an unwilling person, and they can just move away if its not cast directly on them. It can be dispelled, or you can cast vocalize to get around it. And worst come to worst, you can run away. Plus, of course, the enemy can cast it too, and should. The hammer is carefully selected to sound uber, but actually BE meaningless. Unless youre over 6 feet tall and have at least an 18/01 strength you cant use it at all, and clerics dont get percentile strength. And he sounds like just the kind of malignant loser to have known that full well when he gave it to you. He's probably even aware enough to be sure there isnt another character in the party that DOES have the needed stats so you cant give it to them instead where even without the girdle/gauntlets it would be a good weapon for quite a while. You dont have a person with that kind of strength in the party, do you? Bet he wont let you sell it for anything worthwhile either. The whole "now you'll never see gauntlets or a girdle in this campaign" is just being a richard, and to the whole party, not just you. I think its hammergun time.
Hinthas 03-15-07, 02:05 PM	Even this was geared towards 3rd ed., it still applies to our game in general. Antagonistic DM's VS. Cooperative Dm's http://www.thetangledweb.net/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=2