Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aristulous 08-04-05, 10:16 PM	Hi everyone, I've been away awhile and I want to build a 1st level human Paladin Edit *was fighter* for the Eberron World. I'm a bit "overwhelmed" as to where to start. We start the campaign in Sept. Are there any threads for doing so just using the PHB 3.5 and the Races of Eberron Book? I should be able to use the Complete Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/176640000) too but not positive. I'm emailing my group to find out. Assuming he survives... we should be playing into Epic levels... uuhh... down the road sometime. I would like him to be a "little" Chrismatic for roleplaying purposes. A 12 would be nice. I'm not ruling out crossing into a Paladin... so assume a Lawful Good alignment. There is a 28pt buy system: 8-14 1pt 15-16 2pt 17 3pt 18 4pt Any help or links pointing me into the right direction would be appreciated.
Kintara 08-04-05, 10:45 PM	Hmm, one favorite build, if you have access to Complete Warrior, is to shoot for the tactical feats in that book (Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and even Elusive Target), along with Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes. A list of feats would be something like this, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Close Quarters Fighting, Hold the Line, Improved Trip. Three Mountains, the Weapon Style feat, might also work, if you want to use a Greatclub. Leap Attack, from Complete Adventurer, would be a good idea. This build works best with a two-handed weapon because it's all about charging. Specifically, the idea is that you use Heedless Charge, dump your AC into Power Attack damage, and then go nuts with Karmic Strike counter attacks. Personally, I'm not much of a fan of Weapon Focus and Specialization, especially if you use a two handed weapon. Improved Critical isn't all that impressive, either. Improved Initiative is always nice, though, and sets up some nice Epic feats. In fact, speaking of, if you really want advice on Epic, just take all the prereqs you can before getting to 20th level. This actually complicates the advice a lot because there are a lot of sub-optimal feats that become prerequisites for some pretty nice Epic feats. Improved Whirlwind Attack is pretty neat, but regular WA is only alright. Improved Crit and the Weapon Focus stuff also start to look better when nearing 20th level. Also, keep in mind that you'll need a decent Dex and Int to qualify for the feats (14 is a good start), but you'll want to keep Strength as your primary stat. Oh, and ignore this whole concept if you can't use Complete Warrior. Anyway, I hope I helped solve your confusion by keeping it nice and simple. ;) Heh, if you're stuck with just the PHB, then Fighter, mechanically speaking, loses a lot of cool options. You might consider taking mounted combat feats, along with the Power Attack tree. Improved Trip is also pretty cool. In fact, a favorite core only Fighter is a Spiked Chain tripper, which takes Improved Trip and proficiency in the spiked chain, and Combat Reflexes to make Attacks of Opportunity against approaching foes. The spiked chain is always attractive because it's a reach weapon that threatens adjacent squares. Note that I avoided Two Weapon Fighting and ranged combat. Personally, I like Rangers for those fighting styles, but Fighters can do it, too. Actually, a mounted archer might be pretty fun. Ugh, anyway, if you want to look at the epic material, it's in the SRD now, so you can look at feat prerequisites, if you want. Also, most of this advice is geared towards single classed Fighters. A Fighter 4/Paladin 16 can be perfectly viable, too, if that's what you want to do. It's a good way to pick up some extra feats. Divine Might, from Complete Warrior, would be a good choice for such a character, and you'd have a nice mount to work with, so mounted combat feats might be in order. Also, I don't own Races of Eberron, so I won't do much commenting on it. I've seen it, though, and most of the feats would be for non-humans, anyway. The Eberron core book doesn't have much for a Fighter, either. Powerful Charge might be nice, though. So, anyway...I'm rambling, but it's a start. Edit: You know what? Fighters are kind of involved, and really take work to take advantage of all those feats; that's probably why I rambled. I don't want to keep it simple because I'm worried it won't work out well if I don't throw you in the deep end with some of the best stuff (in my opinion). That said, it's not the end of the world to make a sword and shield fighter with Greater Weapon Specialization (Longsword), Improved Critical, and Whirlwind Attack (or a two-weapon fighter with Weapon Finesse and two sets of Weapon Focus for primary and off-hand weapons), like many first time Fighters.
Mandarbgrim 08-05-05, 11:24 PM	Generalized feats may be your best option, although I would normally second the opinion that you should concentrate on special attack feats such as improved trip, ect. You might want to try finding out what the plot is and what the likely enemies are. Heroic Spirit and Action Boost may be a good idea to keep your character flexible and generalized. They are also from the Eberron Campaign setting. Races of Eberron doesn't seem to have many good feats in it for a human..they are all geared toward the new races. Improved Initiative Combat Reflex's if you have a good dex. Power Attack and the feats that follow it if you want to use a two handed weapon Combat Expertise if you want to go with tactical feats. hmmm..trying to think of more, but the value of any feat depends mainly on what kind of fighter you are developing.
Nom 08-06-05, 10:24 AM	First level is fairly easy. My recommendation is to not think too far ahead; just make a character that works for you now. Trying to plot a path to 20th level and beyond will most likely leave you pining for what you can do in the future rather than enjoying the moment. The main effect of playing in Eberron is that it gives you 4 additional racial choices and the option of a few interesting feat paths. The one important question you need to answer is "Dragonmarks, yes or no?". Playing a dedicated dragonmarked character restricts your choices a little, since you need to be planning to become a Dragonmarked Heir as soon as practical in order to get the most out of your marks. So I'll assume "no" for now. You want to play a fighter with Charisma. There are 3 paths you could follow, typical, atypical, or offbeat. Typical: Good racial choices: human, half-elf, elf. Humans make good fighters of any style; the extra feat comes in handy, and they can freely multiclass. Half-elves are social. Elves make good light fighters or archers, with the dexterity bonus. Any melee fighter should consider special attacks. You can't do the "two-handed weapon smash" as well as a barbarian, but you have feats to spare. Consider using a reach, trip weapon (such as a guisarme). Combat Expertise and Improved Trip come in handy, as can Power Attack and Improved Sunder, and perhaps Cleave. If you have the dexterity and are happy to forgo heavy armour, consider pursuing the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack path. With those 3, CE, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes you will dominate the melee battlefield; A human fighter can gain all 6 by level 4. The archery feat paths should be obvious. With high Charisma, consider learning Initimidate. While Intimidate in combat isn't devastating, docking all saving throws by 2 can be a big help to your spellcaster allies. Atypical: dwarf, half-orc, warforged. These three races all make naturally good fighters, but all suffer from a charisma penalty. However, setting Cha to 14 (12 after racial penalty) and playing your character as a "natural leader" can be an interesting way to break the stereotype. All 3 races favour melee combat. See notes above. A warforged with the Adamantine Body feat (armour +8, DR 2/adamantine) is a particularly tough competitor at low levels, but locks you into heavy armour. In addition, shifters make great lightfighters, especially when loaded up with shifter feats. They can work as heavy fighters too, but the focus on Dex reduces the benefit of heavier armour. I'm a fan of the Beasthide (+2 Con, +2 natural armour) and Longtooth (+2 Str, bite secondary attack) shifters and the shifter ferocity, elite, and "extra trait" feats. Like the other 3 classes, shifters suffer a Charisma penalty. The offbeat option is the changeling, who has limited doppleganger-like abilities. Like the half-elf, the main advantage here is the focus on social abilities. Feats: It's worth perusing pp 48-49 of the Eberron Campaign Setting, as there are some nifty combat feats in there. Dragon Totem (if race appropriate), Powerful Charge and Precise Swing all have their uses. You've also seen the shifter and warforged feats mentioned. However, I want to briefly draw your attention to the action point and dragonmark feats. Action points are a standard extension rule in the ECS. Several (5+) times a level, you may either add d6 to a d20 roll or gain some other bonus (like automatically stabilising). Various feats grant additional powers, such as the ability to make an extra action (Action Surge) or the ability to chase someone who makes a 5 ft. step (Pursue). They can be interesting. Dragonmarks grant various spell like abilities, depending on race and house affiliation. Useful marks for fighters include the Mark of Sentinel (humans, House Deneith) which grants magical protections (such as mage armour) and the Mark of Passage (humans, House Orien) which grants limited movement (mount) or teleportation abilities. Ability scores:There is a 28pt buy system: 8-14 1pt 15-16 2pt 17 3pt 18 4pt Generally, buying above 16 isn't worth it. I'd put 14 in Charisma (6 points), 14 in Str (6 points) and 14 in Dex (6 points). This gives 10 points to distribute amongst Wis, Int and Con (put at least 10 (4) in Con). You could set one of Str or Dex to 16, but that sacrifices a lot elsewhere. If you intended to be a heavy fighter, you could set Dex to 12 (max armour bonus to Dex for full plate). Important: put at least 14 in whatever ability score for which you have a +2 racial bonus. Racial bonuses are added after scores are set, so you can get (for example) a 16 for the price of a 14, or an 18 for the price of a 16.
ShadowDragon8685 08-06-05, 10:40 AM	Or a 20 after the price of an 18. This is invaluable for primary spellcasters, or anyone who wants to do the "Me SMAAASSH!" steryotype of a big dumb two handed smasher. :)
Aristulous 08-07-05, 10:24 PM	Thanks for all the ideas. Considering our party needs a "fighting spokesman", I decided to go with a Heavy Armor Human Paladin. 28pt buy: STR 14 INT 13 Wis 13 Dex 12 Con 10 CHR 14 Our DM is allowing Complete Warrior. I have 2 questions. What would be 2 great starting Feats from CW, ROE, EC, PHB 3.5? Would taking the PrC of Kensai make any sense? Does anyone know of a "Cool" PrC for a Paladin or just go straight up? I prefer to stay away from crossing into a fighter even though it makes sense. I'm assuming this will be a "normal" magic/treasure gathering world as outlined in DMG . I'm not interested in having a "Dragonmark" either. I will probably boost my CHR to 18+ as I gain levels. I'm also not interested in Mounted feats. Feats like "Divine Might" "Extra Smite" and other Paladin boosting feats look interesting. "Hold the Line" looks good too because I'll probably not take Improved Initiative unless u guys think it's a "must have".. I prefer to react to a situation then charge into something. The DM is strongly against "Trip" aimed feats. Which is a good thing cause we wont have to face being tripped much ourselves. I'm learning A LOT guys... thanks for your input
Nom 08-08-05, 01:50 AM	On PrCs: more focus on "now", less thinking about "sometime". There are several good options (including single classing, conventional multiclassing, and prestige classes), but don't lock your character into one career path before he's even appeared in-game. Despite having a full BAB, you'll find that a non-mounted paladin is closer to a second-line warrior (like rangers, clerics and druids) than a first-line warrior (fighters and barbarians). You can certainly hold your own in a fight (and should), but your special abilities tend towards support than direct combat. On scores, I'd recommend dropping Int and Wis to 12 each and putting 2 more into Con. If you're not interested in Improved Trip or Disarm, then you don't gain that much from Combat Expertise, and the extra hit points will come in handy. As for feats (I only have access to PH and ECS), Power Attack is always useful if you use a two-handed weapon. Quick Draw can come in handy, and has good flavour. Education (from ECS) is also a good flavour feat. If you're gung-ho in combat, Powerful Charge can be potent. Although I did recommend not thinking too much about the future too soon, there are definite benefits to be gained from multiclassing to cleric, especially if you're not overly concerned about the mount. You gain more variety in spells and the domain special abilities can synergise quite nicely. If your DM plays with the paladin multiclass restriction (I dislike the restriction it but it is RAW), there's a distinct benefit in taking a cleric level first so you can multiclass into (and then out of) paladin without restriction. There's also the Eberron PrC Exorcist of the Silver Flame, which further refines the divine warrior stereotype. For Eberron PrCs, don't worry too much about mechanical pre-requisites. If you match the flavour text you will almost always have the pre-reqs. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of many other PrCs, which often have unrelated pre-reqs. As a DM, I tend to take the "optional" and "customise" comments about PrCs to heart (DMG pg 176) and freely modify PrCs to better fit my world.
Kintara 08-08-05, 04:37 AM	Power Attack is a good start for a Paladin. It's a prerequisite for Divine Might, anyway, and two-handed weapons are nice. Improved Buckler Defense is a nice option my group often takes advantage of. Also, since you're in Eberron, there are some nice, flavorful feats in the ECS that you might want to take just for the sake of taking them. You could get a Dragonmark, for instance. The Orien Least Dragonmark is my favorite. Dimension Leap. You can also take Action Point feats if you think of your character as someone with a lot of cinematic luck.
Clawhound 08-08-05, 11:54 AM	"What looks cool at level 20?" That's where you start. It's very hard to aim for a prestige class or a feat tree after you've gone up a few levels. Starting early makes a big difference. I suggest that you look at "paladin only" feats. Those are what give you the best bang for the buck. They help you to get "unique". I suggest one level of cleric, if you DM will allow it. This will let you use every clerical magic item. This can get rather handy down the line. Maybe start as a cleric and switch to paladin? For general feats, Power Attack is helpful. Also, Unarmed, Disarm, and the one that drops the penalty for subdual with a non-subdual weapon. Paladins often have the need to "bring 'em back alive." Having the tools for that is good. My advice: determine what you will be good at, and make sure that you are the best at it. (Avoid being best at damage. You'll never be best at that. That's the barbarian's forte.)
Aristulous 08-08-05, 02:23 PM	Well... for role-playing purposes... I'm going for Kensai as outlined in the Complete Warrior. It looks like fun and I'll focus on "Speaking" for the group... Heavy Diplomacy... sense motive... later on put points into Intimidate/Bluff when it becomes a class based skill when I PrC into Kensai. My two 1st level feats will be Exotic Weapon (Bastard Sword) and Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword). That will set me up for the next Feat.. Weapon Expertise that I will need to become a Kensai when I get my +5 base attack.
Nom 08-09-05, 02:13 AM	"What looks cool at level 20?"*cringe* Been there, done that (mainly in Neverwinter Nights). Frankly, I find it an unfulfilling way to play, as you're always worrying about how you'll be statted out sometime in the far future. I'd rather enjoy my character now, at level 1, 2, or whatever rather than be peering off into some distant future that I might never reach. It's not too bad in NWN, since (being a CRPG) you level up often enough that you can think "the level after next, I will ..." and perhaps reach it in a few hours. For face-to-face roleplay, I'd rather just enjoy the now (and plan out the soon).
Kintara 08-09-05, 02:27 AM	It's best to enjoy the everything. I typically plan all my builds out pretty far, but I keep playability in mind at each step. All characters have their peaks 'n' valleys. Except Druids. ;)
Clawhound 08-09-05, 12:43 PM	*cringe* Been there, done that (mainly in Neverwinter Nights). Frankly, I find it an unfulfilling way to play, as you're always worrying about how you'll be statted out sometime in the far future. I'd rather enjoy my character now, at level 1, 2, or whatever rather than be peering off into some distant future that I might never reach. It's not too bad in NWN, since (being a CRPG) you level up often enough that you can think "the level after next, I will ..." and perhaps reach it in a few hours. For face-to-face roleplay, I'd rather just enjoy the now (and plan out the soon). I was talking about tabletop playing. I find that having a character aim gives me a direction to grow my character into. I build my characters onto their ambitions and desires. I get a direction. I only pay attention to stats at level-up time. This way, my gladiator-to-be acts like a gladiator from day one. Also, given the many prestige classes require weird things and specific builds, it's better to know those things earlier rather than later. For CRPG, I just build a basic party and go.
Nom 08-09-05, 09:33 PM	Also, given the many prestige classes require weird things and specific buildsPersonally, I consider this a blatant design flaw in many PrCs. That's one thing I really like about the Eberron PrCs (and why I allow them) - for the most part, the Pre-reqs flow naturally from the concept of the class. In many ways, I think that is the best test of a PrC's pre-reqs. Give someone the class flavour text, and ask them what feats and skills they'd take if they were playing towards this class. There should be a good correlation between their answer and the pre-reqs.
Shaken, not Stunned 08-10-05, 10:15 PM	Don't forget the DM. Powergaming has nothing on building a character the DM actually likes having around and who can actually, you know, contribute to the game. Most DMs like flexible characters who can handle a wide array of encounters, preferable equally well and at or around the recommended difficulty. This does not mean you should be able to do everyone's job, but it means you should both have something to do in almost everyone's job, and be able to survive while taking an active role in at least the bulk of encounters, regardless of their nature. Because of the paladin's spell casting, this is a fairly simple process. Get a decent wisdom, make it to level 5. Charisma is also an excellent stat, because it lets you get into role play (the DM likes this) and not bungle things up with a bad roll (the players like that). You will want at least a decent constitution for the durability, and either a good strength score (for a melee character) or the zen archery feat from CW (for a ranged paly). So, two main words here: -Contribute -Survive Make someone who can do this, and you will have fun. Don't forget your best weapon is your own brain, not any stat or ability of your character.