Post/Author/DateTime	Post
slart 10-04-05, 07:26 PM	Hi, I am playing about to play first level wizard at the moment and I am wondering what peoples thoughts are on how a wizard can survive a hand to hand encounter? For example, assume the party is busy dealing with a band of orcs, and the wizard has used his sleep spell and magic missle for the day, but one of the orcs have closed into hand to hand with the wizard. Any thoughts, other than relying on their trusty dagger and praying that they dont get hit? thanks
Hochiu 10-04-05, 07:40 PM	To quote the grunt covenants from Halo... RUN AWAY! RUN AWAYYYYY!
20goingon1232 10-04-05, 07:51 PM	Hi, I am playing about to play first level wizard at the moment and I am wondering what peoples thoughts are on how a wizard can survive a hand to hand encounter? For example, assume the party is busy dealing with a band of orcs, and the wizard has used his sleep spell and magic missle for the day, but one of the orcs have closed into hand to hand with the wizard. Any thoughts, other than relying on their trusty dagger and praying that they dont get hit? thanks Depends on how wounded the orc seems. It is uninjured, run. If it is, drill it in the face with a crossbow... What do you mean you don't have a crossbow???? :D
Tiran 10-04-05, 08:24 PM	Do not feed the monsters, do not play with the monsters and stay behind the line. Thank you and have a nice day.
slart 10-04-05, 10:09 PM	Depends on how wounded the orc seems. It is uninjured, run. If it is, drill it in the face with a crossbow... What do you mean you don't have a crossbow???? :D Err, wouldn't that provoke an attack of opportunity, leading to the even quicker demise of the wizard? The same story for running. If you run once the Orc has closed within 5ft, the Orc also gets an attack of oportunity C'mon guys, there must be a better solution than this ????? Or am I doomed to running away until I get high enough level to frag all the orcs with a fire ball?
Ace-High 10-04-05, 10:14 PM	Well, there are a few options: 1. Roll well on your attack. If possible, critical. 2. Full retreat. No attack of oppertunity, and you might find something to hide behind. Perhaps a party member. 3. Full defense. Maybe you can hold out long enough for your party to help you out.
Draco Strang 10-04-05, 10:17 PM	Mage Armor and Truestrike work wonders, ya know.
20goingon1232 10-04-05, 10:22 PM	Err, wouldn't that provoke an attack of opportunity, leading to the even quicker demise of the wizard? The same story for running. If you run once the Orc has closed within 5ft, the Orc also gets an attack of oportunity C'mon guys, there must be a better solution than this ????? Or am I doomed to running away until I get high enough level to frag all the orcs with a fire ball? You only need to get to level 2. Scorching Ray works wonders. Anyway, you don't provoke a AoO if you take a 5ft step!
Salla 10-04-05, 10:43 PM	You only need to get to level 2. Scorching Ray works wonders. Anyway, you don't provoke a AoO if you take a 5ft step! You don't get Scorching Ray until level 3; it's a 2nd level spell. :) (Unless you meant 'spell level 2', in which case I apologize.) Frankly, what should probably be happening is that one party member, until you get to at *least* 3rd level, should be your appointed bodyguard and stay near you to cover your butt. If you've run out of spells (and you should be holding back with spells and using your crossbow most of the time), then the party should, if at all possible, break away and give you a chance to rest and regain spells.
20goingon1232 10-04-05, 10:49 PM	You don't get Scorching Ray until level 3; it's a 2nd level spell. :) (Unless you meant 'spell level 2', in which case I apologize.) Frankly, what should probably be happening is that one party member, until you get to at *least* 3rd level, should be your appointed bodyguard and stay near you to cover your butt. If you've run out of spells (and you should be holding back with spells and using your crossbow most of the time), then the party should, if at all possible, break away and give you a chance to rest and regain spells. He was talking Fireball which is third. I pointed out 2nd with Scorch R. What should have happened is that he take a level of Cleric or Druid before taking Wizard and go MT/AH with Prac Spellcaster for no caster level loss cheese. Even Rogue for AT would be acceptable.
dan1234 10-05-05, 12:12 AM	Well a level 1 wizard, everyround(even when you have spells) back up your speed, so you can still cast. And by casting your 2 spells, you will be at less 60ft away, wich means you should be safe for a while. just keep backing up, and shoot if you have your crowsbow. If you do not have, do nothing, and the party will understand...
Nom 10-05-05, 12:27 AM	You can use a crossbow without provoking an AoO if an orc is in your face. 5 ft. step (not an action), reload (move), fire (standard). Though in most situations Withdraw is a better bet. Also, you only mentioned level 1 spells. daze is one of the most effective spells going at low levels, at least against creatures with low will saves (like your typical orc warrior). 5 ft. step, cast daze, act with impunity for 1 round. For similar reasons, consider ditching magic missile and replacing it with something useful. Choose a spell that you can't replicate with a crossbow and a decent die roll.
weasel fierce 10-05-05, 12:39 AM	Wizards are generally screwed in melee. Hope you dont die, and defend as much as possible, untill the party's fighter bails you out. Try to maneuver to have a plate armoured goon between you and the enemy, at all times, and spend some time flinging daggers and darts
Lord Gwydion 10-05-05, 12:44 AM	The L1 Wizard who knows that he's going to be in melee combat, like it or not, should be preparing Mage Armor, Shield, and/or True Strike, and maybe have a few scrolls of Expeditious Retreat and damage causing spells on hand as well. Even then, his chances are slim, because a good hit from a dagger can take him out (assuming attacker's Str=Wiz's Con).
Reinsuoknera 10-05-05, 01:20 AM	Never underestimate the run feat. It's an amazing thing to keep your dexterity bonus to AC while you run for your life. A bow would probably suit you better than a crossbow if you at least have a ten strength since it allows you to avoid having to reload. If you have a negative strength modifier then you may want to use a crossbow after all. Read the combat chapter whenever you can, especially the parts on fighting defensively, total defense, and withdrawing from melee. Don't underestimate your abilities. At first level you are not in very bad shape as a melee character. Most players who have average stats are going to rely on high rolls to hit their opponents. A spear or shortspear would give you a chance to take part in combat and also keep your enemies at a distance. If you hold or prepare an action you can also set against charges. If you can get some melee back-up then you can still use a spear's reach to poke at an opponent while the more adept fighters of the group keep the monster in place. If you are playing a wizard then you should also consider memorizing helpful buff spells and come up with strategies that allow the party to make use of thier abilities. I'm not saying you're the only one who can do this, but wizards are generally played by people who like to be a party leader from my experience. There are plenty of ways to pin a monster down and take advantage of the attack of opportunity rules. I hope this is of some use to you.
Arcen 10-05-05, 02:24 AM	Depends on what your Str is. Level 1 is about the only level a wiz would have a prayer with combat. Even then you better not get hit with you 4+ hp :p
slart 10-05-05, 02:48 AM	Depends on what your Str is. Level 1 is about the only level a wiz would have a prayer with combat. Even then you better not get hit with you 4+ hp :p What if I added my character has a strength was 3 :eek: .... I had just rolled a three and all my other stats were good (ie 12+). I had asked the DM if I could roll that stat again, and he just smiled evilly and said "deal with it" I could have opted for a 3 Cha buff character, but that would have been too cliche. I thought it would be a more fun experience / challenge to play a 3 str wizard (or perhaps druid) instead. I know this character is toast in a hand to hand situation, and needs to think his way out of situations, run as much as possible and use his crossbow liberally. I was just wondering if anyone had any neat tricks they could recommend for my character ...
Arcen 10-05-05, 03:00 AM	Wow your screwed :P You have the str of a weazel. A natural 20 is about all you can hope for.
slart 10-05-05, 03:04 AM	Ahh, but it a smarty pants weazel with a crossbow, magic and a bad attitude :D
Kursk 10-05-05, 03:25 AM	Do not feed the monsters, do not play with the monsters and stay behind the line. Thank you and have a nice day. 100% correct! :rofl:
Eaglos 10-05-05, 03:31 AM	You can use a crossbow without provoking an AoO if an orc is in your face. 5 ft. step (not an action), reload (move), fire (standard). "Excuse Mr. Orc I will be taking a small step back now ok? Now, don't move while I am reloading my crossbow ok? Now, you cannot move yet so stay still while I take a shot at you. My name is Flash and I move at the speed of light although my Str is 3 and I can barely stand". :P I am glad my party has agreed on dumping this rule. Nothing personal Nom ;) -------- To the original poster, a 1st level wizard has NO PLACE whatsoever in a melee. If you find yourself in a it either you miscalculated or a party member messed up with his rolls and a foe passed through. Additionaly, a 3 Str person is a mockery of an adventurer and should stay at home until he grows some muscles :P Mage armour might give you a chance but the best solution is to make a full retreat and hide behind some party member. Can you actually lift the crossbow AND your spell components at the same time without sweating? :D
PoeticJustice 10-05-05, 03:43 AM	Don't forget scrolls. So long as you have a little bit of EXP there should be no excuse for running out of Magic Missile or Mage armor spells.
Reinsuoknera 10-05-05, 05:04 AM	Have you shown your DM the section of the PHB that says if you don't have your stats at a certain average or your mods add up to a cetain number that you should reroll your stats? If you haven't I would do just that. Honestly, your character is doomed to an untimely death with an ability score of three.
hiroshimahamster 10-05-05, 05:50 AM	And I thought I was doomed for one of my wizard's who had a con of 11 (admittedly she lasted until level 7, when she had an unfortunate incident with the party's elven fighter when she wanted to make some undead buddies... You could say 'one-hit wonder' :eek: )! No offense, but STAY OUT OF COMBAT! Take the run feat, mage armor, shield and pray to whatever deity you worship to look after your little behind cos you'll need it. Also, invest in a meat shield (fighter to you and me). A meat shield works wonders... especially if you are a halfling evoker/rogue :evillaugh . Usually a wizard doesn't need to keep their meat shield when higher levels, but if you make it to higher levels you are extremely lucky! If you are aiming to be a leader, no-one is going to take you seriously if you struggle to keep a wand upright when you use it :P . BTW your dm is evil!
Merestil Haye 10-05-05, 07:42 AM	The OP is in trouble. First of all, here is a line from the table on carrying capacities. 3 10 lb. or less 11-20 lb. 21-30 lb. The odds are he is already at least medium encumbered unless he has really worked at trimming things down. His spellbook weighs 3lb, a sack to carry stuff in ½lb and the dagger 1lb. I can quite understand if he is not carrying a crossbow (4lb + 1lb / 10 quarrels) or quarterstaff (4lb). Then there is food and water... maybe his companions have agreed to carry the rest of his stuff though. [Edit ; Happily he can wear a set of clothes without counting them against his weight carried.] If he is encumbered his speed slows to 20', his Max Dex to AC is capped at +3 and he suffers a -3 check penalty on skills where an ACP applies. These change to +1 Max Dex and -6 to skills if he allows the load to rise to Heavy. At that point he cannot run faster than *3 either. Some suggestions. 1. Don't allow the monsters to close with you. 2. High Dex (to avoid being hit) or Con (to soak up one hit before dying). 3. Total defence. This puts your AC up. Combat Expertise comes into its own at later levels as you can jab at the foe and get up to +5 to AC. 4. Withdraw. This is a full-round action that lets you clear the area you start the round in and move up to twice your speed as a full-round action. This will work if the creature is slower than you (say because he's wearing armour) or you can use the terrain to avoid being charged. If you remain within charge-range you'll probably be followed. 5. Run. The weakness here is that running provokes AoOs because you did not withdraw. But if you can soak that hit without dying you might then outrun the monster. The Run feat even lets you keep your Dex bonus to AC when getting out of Dodge. 6. Last desperate throw. Invest in the Bluff skill and buy a skin of pigsblood which you hold in hand. Ready an action. Trigger : you are attacked in melee. Action : Collapse to the ground, bursting the bladder to cover yourself in blood, and act unconscious and dying. Hope he fails his Sense Motive roll to realise you are faking it.
Nom 10-05-05, 08:23 AM	"Excuse Mr. Orc I will be taking a small step back now ok? Now, don't move while I am reloading my crossbow ok? Now, you cannot move yet so stay still while I take a shot at you. My name is Flash and I move at the speed of light although my Str is 3 and I can barely stand". :P I am glad my party has agreed on dumping this rule. Nothing personal Nom ;)That's fine. There have been plenty of threads explaining how the AoO mechanic synchs with the turn based combat mechanic, and I'd invite you to take up the issue there rather than confusing the OP with snide references to your personal house rules.
amethal 10-05-05, 08:26 AM	Hi, I am playing about to play first level wizard at the moment and I am wondering what peoples thoughts are on how a wizard can survive a hand to hand encounter? For example, assume the party is busy dealing with a band of orcs, and the wizard has used his sleep spell and magic missle for the day, but one of the orcs have closed into hand to hand with the wizard. Any thoughts, other than relying on their trusty dagger and praying that they dont get hit? thanksWith a strength of 3, I wouldn't even bother carrying a dagger. Orcs in hand to hand are nasty enough for fighters, let alone wizards, as they are very strong for humanoids. In hand to hand, I suggest you play dead e.g. waves hands while pretending to cast magic missile, cries out in pain, holds head whilst releasing rat blood from the sac concealed in his hands, screams "Oh no, magical feedback!" and collapses in a heap with blood running down his forehead. Have you considered playing a sorcerer? It will take you longer to run out of spells, and they get bluff as a class skill. Alternatively, if your character is indeed unplayable the problem will very soon solve itself ........
slart 10-05-05, 08:26 AM	The odds are he is already at least medium encumbered unless he has really worked at trimming things down. His spellbook weighs 3lb, a sack to carry stuff in ½lb and the dagger 1lb. I can quite understand if he is not carrying a crossbow (4lb + 1lb / 10 quarrels) or quarterstaff (4lb). Then there is food and water... maybe his companions have agreed to carry the rest of his stuff though. This is not so bad if you take a gnome and a mage bred riding dog (or other equivalent self propelled container). I guess the problem I have here is getting the cash together to afford a mage bred riding dog, or a normal riding dog for that matter. Does any one know of any feats one can get to increase your starting cash? (The other way to solve this is to get a level of druid first and start with the riding dog.) One thing I had thought of was using an illusion spell to create a minor illusion to distract the orc. This is possible as a cantrip for a first level gnome illusionist who has taken a racial substituion level.
slart 10-05-05, 08:31 AM	This is not so bad if you take a gnome and a mage bred riding dog (or other equivalent self propelled container). I guess the problem I have here is getting the cash together to afford a mage bred riding dog, or a normal riding dog for that matter. Actually I just realized this gnome thing wont work, cause it will reduce my strength to 1. If you think 3 str is bad, I dare not think of a 1 str
SwiftFox 10-05-05, 08:49 AM	Okay : you want to have a crossbow, so that you arent useless once your spells have run out. You have too few spells/day to invest in mage armor/shield as others have suggested... sleep, burning hands and color spray are your best friends at the moment as all your damage spells will be doing very little, so you might as do as much damage to as many foes as you can, via area of effect. As youre actually starting off at 1st level, I consider you the perfect candidate for the feat 'precocious apprentice', from page 181 complete arcane. This feat can only be taken by a 1st level arcane caster with an int of 15+, and gives him a single additional 2nd level spell slot and one 2nd level spell which must be linked to that slot untill the character knows 2nd level spells normally. I think it would help you big-time to be able to cast a 2nd level spell at 1st level, say, scorching ray, or maybe flaming sphere are great choices. You want to have a toad for a familliar, that will give you a much needed +3 HPs, which could spell the difference between life and a very quick death. You may also want to take the feat toughness, for even more HPs. Consider specialising in a school of magic... the extra spells are well worth the trade-off of less versitility, especially if it helps you survive to see another day.
Prominence 10-05-05, 08:59 AM	Take Vow of Poverty - you can't carry anything anyway.
Eaglos 10-05-05, 09:22 AM	That's fine. There have been plenty of threads explaining how the AoO mechanic synchs with the turn based combat mechanic, and I'd invite you to take up the issue there rather than confusing the OP with snide references to your personal house rules. Sometimes people take this forums too seriously. I did not confuse anything. My paragraphs were seperate, a comment on game mechanics at first and an answer to the original poster afterwards. There is no "issue", it was just an off topic comment. Sometimes I go off topic, you could have chosen not to read that off-topic... ;) Cheers.
CzarGarrett 10-05-05, 09:56 AM	Its odd. I don' think I've ever had a wizard/sorc get killed in melee without half the party going down as well. When I think about it, I play smart. Besides my normal spells, I always had a bit extra in the way of scrolls, wands, or the like. Even when I had full spells readied, I would sometimes use mundane attacks over spells, just so when the time came, I would have enough spells. And I often used a lot in the way of ranged attacks. When actually in melee, I tried to play to my strengths. Elves could use swords and other racial goodies, so I wasn't always limited to a quarterstaff/dagger.
l33t Shinobi 10-05-05, 10:22 AM	i agree with the majority, in that the wizards should not get into melee. if you're in melee, you're wrong. an xbow is your friend. with 3 str, id invest in a mule. only 8gp, and some more for the feed, but lookit this: Carrying Capacity A light load for a mule is up to 230 pounds; a medium load, 231-460 pounds; and a heavy load, 461-690 pounds. A mule can drag 3,450 pounds. so theres your weight problem. you only need to carry a 4lb xbow, maybe 2lb(20) bolts, and there ya go.
bob_the_great 10-05-05, 11:07 AM	4. Withdraw. This is a full-round action that lets you clear the area you start the round in and move up to twice your speed as a full-round action. This will work if the creature is slower than you (say because he's wearing armour) or you can use the terrain to avoid being charged. If you remain within charge-range you'll probably be followed. that is my advice. double-move and use terrain to avoid charges. even if your speed is 20 and the orc has 30 speed, you can move 40ft away behind a tree and he can't attack you. a 3 strength wizard would pee himself if he ever tried to engage an orc in melee. The only way to have survived this long would be to have avoided fighting at all costs. Your character grew up running from bullies and it worked, why change that now?
amethal 10-05-05, 11:09 AM	Actually I just realized this gnome thing wont work, cause it will reduce my strength to 1. If you think 3 str is bad, I dare not think of a 1 strI have a feeling racial modifiers can't reduce an ability score below 3, but I don't have my players handbook and I can't see it in the SRD. If I'm right about this, definitely play a gnome or a halfling and impress your DM with now you are "dealing with it". Although maybe I'm thinking of some other game.
Ellone 10-05-05, 11:19 AM	Yeah! Mule and Familiar will be your friend, a Mule is terrific opponent for an orc and your familiar will easily do more damage than you :)
Draco Strang 10-05-05, 11:22 AM	Yeah! Mule and Familiar will be your friend, a Mule is terrific opponent for an orc and your familiar will easily do more damage than you :) how about a mule familiar? A talking mule would be so badass.
l33t Shinobi 10-05-05, 02:28 PM	how about a mule familiar? A talking mule would be so badass. w/ emphasis on the ass ;) i doubt that the mule qualifies for familiar status though, as its a large animal. i wasnt even thinking of the combat ability of it when i suggested it eally, just as a pack animal, that huge load compared to yours, being able to actually carry things. gasp. still, no daggers for your wizard, and now bows either a str penalty(but not a bonus) applies to atks w/ a bow except composite bows so, use xbows only. w/ your low str, be sure to have a AoE spell handy at all times, and keep a meatsheild well paid to chump block for you. i think there is a teamwork in DMGII that lets other teamies take AoO for you, you might wanna look at that. all in all, GL and HF
JamesDruidDM 10-05-05, 03:44 PM	Do not feed the monsters, do not play with the monsters and stay behind the line. Thank you and have a nice day. that sounds good