2 new, 2 old = problems — HELP! [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 new, 2 old = problems — HELP! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
windmortal
09-08-06, 09:40 AM Ok, here's the situation. A couple friends and myself picked up the 3.5 edition rules about six months ago. We played 1st edition in school, and wanted to get things rolling again. I was DM and they played. We learned the new rules together and it was slowing working out for us. Once we got it down a little bit, we advertised in the newspaper for a few more players. We got them. These guys knew the new rules very well and have played together for a long time.

I became a player because I felt those guys knew the rules better, and when we were playing before them, things didn't run all that smooth. We have been adventuring together for the last couple months, but things have only gotten worse.

Armor Check penalties, attacks of opportunity, magic resistance and failure, fatigue, hunger, thirst, and blah, blah, blah - don't exist in their style of play. My friends and I want it to be a realistic playing experience, but it's hard.

Also, the one guy who plays with us has been playing with the DM so long, he knows everything ahead of time — what kind of monster it is, or how to solve the trap.

The DM is always telling us how many HPs something has left, or what DC roll is needed to make the jump. He spoils us with magic items out the wazoo. We've advanced nine levels in about five hours of play and my monk is doing 4d6+2d10+24 damage because of all the magic he has given him.

I'm ranting now, but I need help. How do we solve this and get the game back down to "earth."
Judging Eagle
09-08-06, 10:04 AM Talk 2 DM?

Really, it's the only answer to more than half of all 'issues' here.
DracoPhoenix
09-08-06, 10:09 AM Check my sig, but as above - talk to the group.

It may be your styles are incompatible, you may have to bite the bullet and work at DMing yourself.
Ankalagon
09-08-06, 10:11 AM Hey, I feel your pain. I don't think there is anything you really can do. Unfortunately knowing the entire rule set is only a small part of being a good DM and choosing which rules to play and not to play should be a carefully thought out and explored decision.

It depends on how urgent your need to sort things out is. I can tell you that time will fix it. Being superhuman quickly loses it's appeal and ultimately becomes unfulfilling but it can take a while for realisation to kick in.

You could try pointing out metagaming ruins the excitement, I don't see the divulging of DC's as such a big deal but not playing magic resistance just makes spell casters so over powered it's frightening. That is the main balancing element against their awsometasticness (my new word:).

In my best fortune teller voice:

Very well then. Three other paths are open to you. Three cunning plans to cure thy ailment

The first is simple. Kill the DM (whoops slipped into a bit of Blackadder)

The first is to point out that the houserules aren't achieving anything. They hurt game balance. Meta-gaming hurts the experience etc

The second just leave the group, ever so nicely explaining why.

The third, offer to DM and run things your way. This geazers houserules aren't yours. If he refuses then he's a control freak and I'd leave.
starfire311
09-08-06, 10:49 AM Hey, I feel your pain. I don't think there is anything you really can do. Unfortunately knowing the entire rule set is only a small part of being a good DM and choosing which rules to play and not to play should be a carefully thought out and explored decision.

It depends on how urgent your need to sort things out is. I can tell you that time will fix it. Being superhuman quickly loses it's appeal and ultimately becomes unfulfilling but it can take a while for realisation to kick in.

You could try pointing out metagaming ruins the excitement, I don't see the divulging of DC's as such a big deal but not playing magic resistance just makes spell casters so over powered it's frightening. That is the main balancing element against their awsometasticness (my new word:).

In my best fortune teller voice:

Very well then. Three other paths are open to you. Three cunning plans to cure thy ailment

The first is simple. Kill the DM (whoops slipped into a bit of Blackadder)

The first is to point out that the houserules aren't achieving anything. They hurt game balance. Meta-gaming hurts the experience etc

The second just leave the group, ever so nicely explaining why.

The third, offer to DM and run things your way. This geazers houserules aren't yours. If he refuses then he's a control freak and I'd leave.

I think you missed something he said... or maybe I missed it...

The OP and his friend are the old players... they played 1st ed, the new players are "new school" guys that "know" the rules very well. So the OP is the "geazer"

To me it doesn't sound like they know the rules very well at all, and that they could really use a few lessons, by someone that knows what they are doing. Leaving out AoOs, an AC penalties are one thing, but ruining immersion with all that metagamy stuff sucks IMO.
Dei
09-08-06, 11:34 AM Being fairly new to the game myself and starting on 3.5s I have to say that it doesn't look as though your two new players know the rules very well at all. The way they're playing (and by DMing forcing you to play) is basically not DnD since they've removed most of the balancing elements of the game and are obviously chronic power-gamers.

My suggestion would be, offer a return to the DM's chair and at the same time have a chat with the two new players and explain that they're not playing compatibly with the rest of you. A good idea could be to come up with a kind of "Group Charter" where you will formalise and finalise any house rules which will give you all a chance to look at why certain things should be kept or not. A gaming group shouldn't be a DM and players it should be a group which games together so that everyone enjoys it. A DM's role in terms of absolute control should only extend to NPCs and the game world, rules and policies should be open for discussion or things can quickly go sour (as you've found out).

If the new guys don't want to budge from their powergaming fantasy land politely remind them that the two of you were getting along quite happily before they joined and will continue to do so in future. Trust me, there's nothing to be gained from staying in a group that isn't fun and hoping that things will change. If it goes back to the original three then yes games might go slowly again but this will fade quickly as you become familiar with the rules. In my case it was only a few months of effort before I knew the rules as well as or better than the more experienced players. Anyway, my two coppers, good luck sorting it all out.
Ankalagon
09-08-06, 12:30 PM I think you missed something he said... or maybe I missed it...

The OP and his friend are the old players... they played 1st ed, the new players are "new school" guys that "know" the rules very well. So the OP is the "geazer"

To me it doesn't sound like they know the rules very well at all, and that they could really use a few lessons, by someone that knows what they are doing. Leaving out AoOs, an AC penalties are one thing, but ruining immersion with all that metagamy stuff sucks IMO.
Dude if you're gonna pull me up on a supposed lack of understanding be correct.

"This geazer" by leaving things out is making houserules. If the OP chooses to DM he doesn't have to abide by them.

Clearer?
starfire311
09-08-06, 02:49 PM Dude if you're gonna pull me up on a supposed lack of understanding be correct.

"This geazer" by leaving things out is making houserules. If the OP chooses to DM he doesn't have to abide by them.

Clearer?

I wasn't saying you misunderstood anything about making houserules... I think you were just misunderstanding who the "geazer" is.

The OP is the old player thus making him the "geazer" while yes the DM is leaving things out and thus houseruling, but since he is a new player I don't think he would be considored a "geazer"

unless you are using a different meaning for the word geazer than I am used to, although I alwasy that it was spelled geezer, but meh. I guess you would be if you think that new players are geazers, and old players aren't.
Inigo Carmine
09-08-06, 06:05 PM If these players are very new, it could just mean they don't know any better.

Asking them to play more to your guys' style might just confuse them if they see themselves playing it right, because that's the only way they've ever seen it done.

I recomend you DMing for bit, maybe another game on the side, and showing them how you guys do it. Teach by example. If they enjoy your way, you've got two options:

1) Congrats, you're the DM now.

2) See how your ways influence their gaming/DMing style.

If they don't like the way you play, then you should probably find different people to play with.

Be patient though. I was a rampant powergamer the first couple months I played. It's hard not to be if you're transitioning to table top RPGing with only videogame RPGs as your background.
Archangel62
09-09-06, 04:58 PM If the wealth by level charts are being followed properly then I'd love to know what the monk is doing. Anyhow...from 1st ed to 3.X is a bit of a transition but some stuff is decently similar. You probably wanna sit down, read the rules, and look at starting over and maybe try running. Don't diddle the regular rules too much until the group is actively used to them or things can get most chaotic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
windmortal 09-08-06, 09:40 AM	Ok, here's the situation. A couple friends and myself picked up the 3.5 edition rules about six months ago. We played 1st edition in school, and wanted to get things rolling again. I was DM and they played. We learned the new rules together and it was slowing working out for us. Once we got it down a little bit, we advertised in the newspaper for a few more players. We got them. These guys knew the new rules very well and have played together for a long time. I became a player because I felt those guys knew the rules better, and when we were playing before them, things didn't run all that smooth. We have been adventuring together for the last couple months, but things have only gotten worse. Armor Check penalties, attacks of opportunity, magic resistance and failure, fatigue, hunger, thirst, and blah, blah, blah - don't exist in their style of play. My friends and I want it to be a realistic playing experience, but it's hard. Also, the one guy who plays with us has been playing with the DM so long, he knows everything ahead of time — what kind of monster it is, or how to solve the trap. The DM is always telling us how many HPs something has left, or what DC roll is needed to make the jump. He spoils us with magic items out the wazoo. We've advanced nine levels in about five hours of play and my monk is doing 4d6+2d10+24 damage because of all the magic he has given him. I'm ranting now, but I need help. How do we solve this and get the game back down to "earth."
Judging Eagle 09-08-06, 10:04 AM	Talk 2 DM? Really, it's the only answer to more than half of all 'issues' here.
DracoPhoenix 09-08-06, 10:09 AM	Check my sig, but as above - talk to the group. It may be your styles are incompatible, you may have to bite the bullet and work at DMing yourself.
Ankalagon 09-08-06, 10:11 AM	Hey, I feel your pain. I don't think there is anything you really can do. Unfortunately knowing the entire rule set is only a small part of being a good DM and choosing which rules to play and not to play should be a carefully thought out and explored decision. It depends on how urgent your need to sort things out is. I can tell you that time will fix it. Being superhuman quickly loses it's appeal and ultimately becomes unfulfilling but it can take a while for realisation to kick in. You could try pointing out metagaming ruins the excitement, I don't see the divulging of DC's as such a big deal but not playing magic resistance just makes spell casters so over powered it's frightening. That is the main balancing element against their awsometasticness (my new word:). In my best fortune teller voice: Very well then. Three other paths are open to you. Three cunning plans to cure thy ailment The first is simple. Kill the DM (whoops slipped into a bit of Blackadder) The first is to point out that the houserules aren't achieving anything. They hurt game balance. Meta-gaming hurts the experience etc The second just leave the group, ever so nicely explaining why. The third, offer to DM and run things your way. This geazers houserules aren't yours. If he refuses then he's a control freak and I'd leave.
starfire311 09-08-06, 10:49 AM	Hey, I feel your pain. I don't think there is anything you really can do. Unfortunately knowing the entire rule set is only a small part of being a good DM and choosing which rules to play and not to play should be a carefully thought out and explored decision. It depends on how urgent your need to sort things out is. I can tell you that time will fix it. Being superhuman quickly loses it's appeal and ultimately becomes unfulfilling but it can take a while for realisation to kick in. You could try pointing out metagaming ruins the excitement, I don't see the divulging of DC's as such a big deal but not playing magic resistance just makes spell casters so over powered it's frightening. That is the main balancing element against their awsometasticness (my new word:). In my best fortune teller voice: Very well then. Three other paths are open to you. Three cunning plans to cure thy ailment The first is simple. Kill the DM (whoops slipped into a bit of Blackadder) The first is to point out that the houserules aren't achieving anything. They hurt game balance. Meta-gaming hurts the experience etc The second just leave the group, ever so nicely explaining why. The third, offer to DM and run things your way. This geazers houserules aren't yours. If he refuses then he's a control freak and I'd leave. I think you missed something he said... or maybe I missed it... The OP and his friend are the old players... they played 1st ed, the new players are "new school" guys that "know" the rules very well. So the OP is the "geazer" To me it doesn't sound like they know the rules very well at all, and that they could really use a few lessons, by someone that knows what they are doing. Leaving out AoOs, an AC penalties are one thing, but ruining immersion with all that metagamy stuff sucks IMO.
Dei 09-08-06, 11:34 AM	Being fairly new to the game myself and starting on 3.5s I have to say that it doesn't look as though your two new players know the rules very well at all. The way they're playing (and by DMing forcing you to play) is basically not DnD since they've removed most of the balancing elements of the game and are obviously chronic power-gamers. My suggestion would be, offer a return to the DM's chair and at the same time have a chat with the two new players and explain that they're not playing compatibly with the rest of you. A good idea could be to come up with a kind of "Group Charter" where you will formalise and finalise any house rules which will give you all a chance to look at why certain things should be kept or not. A gaming group shouldn't be a DM and players it should be a group which games together so that everyone enjoys it. A DM's role in terms of absolute control should only extend to NPCs and the game world, rules and policies should be open for discussion or things can quickly go sour (as you've found out). If the new guys don't want to budge from their powergaming fantasy land politely remind them that the two of you were getting along quite happily before they joined and will continue to do so in future. Trust me, there's nothing to be gained from staying in a group that isn't fun and hoping that things will change. If it goes back to the original three then yes games might go slowly again but this will fade quickly as you become familiar with the rules. In my case it was only a few months of effort before I knew the rules as well as or better than the more experienced players. Anyway, my two coppers, good luck sorting it all out.
Ankalagon 09-08-06, 12:30 PM	I think you missed something he said... or maybe I missed it... The OP and his friend are the old players... they played 1st ed, the new players are "new school" guys that "know" the rules very well. So the OP is the "geazer" To me it doesn't sound like they know the rules very well at all, and that they could really use a few lessons, by someone that knows what they are doing. Leaving out AoOs, an AC penalties are one thing, but ruining immersion with all that metagamy stuff sucks IMO. Dude if you're gonna pull me up on a supposed lack of understanding be correct. "This geazer" by leaving things out is making houserules. If the OP chooses to DM he doesn't have to abide by them. Clearer?
starfire311 09-08-06, 02:49 PM	Dude if you're gonna pull me up on a supposed lack of understanding be correct. "This geazer" by leaving things out is making houserules. If the OP chooses to DM he doesn't have to abide by them. Clearer? I wasn't saying you misunderstood anything about making houserules... I think you were just misunderstanding who the "geazer" is. The OP is the old player thus making him the "geazer" while yes the DM is leaving things out and thus houseruling, but since he is a new player I don't think he would be considored a "geazer" unless you are using a different meaning for the word geazer than I am used to, although I alwasy that it was spelled geezer, but meh. I guess you would be if you think that new players are geazers, and old players aren't.
Inigo Carmine 09-08-06, 06:05 PM	If these players are very new, it could just mean they don't know any better. Asking them to play more to your guys' style might just confuse them if they see themselves playing it right, because that's the only way they've ever seen it done. I recomend you DMing for bit, maybe another game on the side, and showing them how you guys do it. Teach by example. If they enjoy your way, you've got two options: 1) Congrats, you're the DM now. 2) See how your ways influence their gaming/DMing style. If they don't like the way you play, then you should probably find different people to play with. Be patient though. I was a rampant powergamer the first couple months I played. It's hard not to be if you're transitioning to table top RPGing with only videogame RPGs as your background.
Archangel62 09-09-06, 04:58 PM	If the wealth by level charts are being followed properly then I'd love to know what the monk is doing. Anyhow...from 1st ed to 3.X is a bit of a transition but some stuff is decently similar. You probably wanna sit down, read the rules, and look at starting over and maybe try running. Don't diddle the regular rules too much until the group is actively used to them or things can get most chaotic.