Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Guroth the Forsaken 08-09-06, 10:47 AM	Can someone list point buy costs for ability scores, and, if anyone knows this, what's the average score when rolling 4d6, rerolling ones?
LCD2YOU 08-09-06, 10:52 AM	I figure it would be around 16, 15, 15, 13, 13, 12, basically the same as a 40 point buy.
illiterate 08-09-06, 11:00 AM	point buy is in the dmg... Attribute Score......Cost 8...................0 pts 9...................1 pts 10..................2 pts 11..................3 pts 12..................4 pts 13..................5 pts 14..................6 pts 15..................8 pts 16.................10 pts 17.................13 pts 18.................16 pts as far as 4d6 drop 1s. Do you mean dropping the lowest die after rerolling the 1s?
babysamurai 08-09-06, 11:02 AM	I figure it would be around 16, 15, 15, 13, 13, 12, basically the same as a 40 point buy. Yeah, I’ve noticed whenever players “roll” their scores (I use the term loosely), they conveniently seem to have nothing under a 15. “I rolled these!” …Yeah right…
LCD2YOU 08-09-06, 12:09 PM	Here's my "rolls" re-rolling 1's: First =>6 2 5 5* = 16 Second =>5 3* 4 6 = 15 Third =>4 6 2* 5 = 15 Fourth =>2 5 3 4 = 12 Fifth =>6* 4 2 3 = 13 Sixth =>3 4* 6 2 = 13 The * indicates a re-rolled 1 that's 10+8+8+4+5+5 = 40 points
Guroth the Forsaken 08-09-06, 12:24 PM	point buy is in the dmg... Attribute Score......Cost 8...................0 pts 9...................1 pts 10..................2 pts 11..................3 pts 12..................4 pts 13..................5 pts 14..................6 pts 15..................8 pts 16.................10 pts 17.................13 pts 18.................16 pts as far as 4d6 drop 1s. Do you mean dropping the lowest die after rerolling the 1s? Thanks. I meant to copy this from the DMG before I left for work, but forgot. :ahem: And I meant roll 4d6, reroll 1's and drop lowest. I think that's too much for what I'm looking for though.
Guroth the Forsaken 08-09-06, 12:33 PM	Okay, so after looking at the point buy costs, I'm thinking about roughly a 35 point buy for my players. Is that overpowered? Typical high powered is 29 points, right?
LCD2YOU 08-09-06, 12:47 PM	Loaded question. Depends on who you ask. The typical game is 28 or 32 points. 28 points favors the SAD characters, the PCs who really on one stat, Wizards and Sorcerers are the best example of SAD characters. MAD Characters, most notably the Paladin, are not in the same league at 28 points. However at high points, >35, the Paladin shines through and does very well.
Guroth the Forsaken 08-09-06, 12:54 PM	Loaded question. Depends on who you ask. The typical game is 28 or 32 points. 28 points favors the SAD characters, the PCs who really on one stat, Wizards and Sorcerers are the best example of SAD characters. MAD Characters, most notably the Paladin, are not in the same league at 28 points. However at high points, >35, the Paladin shines through and does very well. I'm definitely not going above 35 points, that much is certain. Hmmm, so probably between 32-35 points. Interesting thoughts on MAD PC's, thanks for the insight.
Azezel 08-09-06, 01:12 PM	point buy is in the dmg... Attribute Score......Cost Snip... That information was never released under the OGL and posting it is a violation of the CoC. As for the OP's question, the standard rolling produces an average result of 25-28 point buy - but it is morely likely to result in a high than a low point-buy equivalency, so it appears, under casual inspection, to average closer to thirty. Actuall statisitcal analysis revelas it's try average at 25-28. Point buy overwhelmingly favours the SAD, Rolling typically is better for MAD characters.
Guroth the Forsaken 08-09-06, 01:26 PM	Oops... honest mistake. Sorry!
LCD2YOU 08-09-06, 01:27 PM	I'm definitely not going above 35 points, that much is certain. Hmmm, so probably between 32-35 points. Interesting thoughts on MAD PC's, thanks for the insight.If you're interested, here's what I do: Class(es)/Points Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue/32 Fighter, Cleric, Druid, Barbarian/33 Ranger, Monk, Bard/34 Paladin/35
Nom 08-09-06, 08:20 PM	if anyone knows this, what's the average score when rolling 4d6, rerolling ones?Reroll 1's effectively turns all rolls into (1d5+1). % dice.pl -s 5 -n 4 -b 3 --full Rolling 4d5, taking best 3 Samples: 625 Mean: 10.43 (2.368) 3 : 1 ( 0.16%) ( 0.16%) 4 : 4 ( 0.64%) ( 0.80%) 5 : 10 ( 1.60%) ( 2.40%) 6 : 21 ( 3.36%) ( 5.76%) 7 : 38 ( 6.08%) ( 11.84%) 8 : 58 ( 9.28%) ( 21.12%) 9 : 79 (12.64%) ( 33.76%) 10 : 94 (15.04%) ( 48.80%) 11 : 100 (16.00%) ( 64.80%) 12 : 91 (14.56%) ( 79.36%) 13 : 70 (11.20%) ( 90.56%) 14 : 42 ( 6.72%) ( 97.28%) 15 : 17 ( 2.72%) (100.00%)Add 3 to all of the above to convert 1d5 to 1d5+1. Mean is 13.43, mode is 14. Point buy overwhelmingly favours the SAD, Rolling typically is better for MAD characters.Huh? MAD characters benefit from having a range of moderate to good scores. SAD characters benefit from having 1-2 high scores. I don't see how rolling is more likely to generate one over the other. When considering point buy and MAD/SAD, what you need to remember is that the whole point of MAD is as a way of countering scarcity. Rather than focus on a single high score, you stack two or more weaker scores for equal or greater effect. What this means is that MAD is more beneficial when there is either a glut or a scarcity of ability score points. At 25 points, buying even a single 18 is extremely expensive, so being able to instead buy two 14s is a big benefit. At 28-32 an 18 is not so expensive, but maintaining multiple scores above 14 is still not practical. Above 32, the SAD character begins to plateaux - there are no more scores to sink points into. Meanwhile, the MAD character can continue boosting scores. MAD is not a weakness, it's a benefit. The issue is not MAD, but whether the class abilities that were traded away to gain MAD are a balanced trade. To the OP: note that the further you deviate from standard 25 point buy, the more work your DM is going to need to do to balance the campaign. Almost every DM that posts on the "what's a DM to do" board complaining about "overpowered PCs" and "CRs that don't work" has used a "generous" ability generation system. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, the game does actually work just fine at 25 points for PCs (and 15 points for non-heroes).
Guroth the Forsaken 08-09-06, 11:10 PM	Nom, Thanks for breaking down the numbers for me. I really appreciate the feedback as well. However, I've been DMing since 1981, and each group member have all been gaming for almost as long, and we got rid of the only munchkin we had a few years back. Honestly, game balance hasn't been an issue since roughly the late 80's. Yeah that means about 9 years of screwing up to varying degrees before I figured it out. :embarrass :D BTW, I've decided to go with a 34 point buy.
Carmath The Pure 08-09-06, 11:39 PM	Yeah, I’ve noticed whenever players “roll” their scores (I use the term loosely), they conveniently seem to have nothing under a 15. “I rolled these!” …Yeah right… That is a weakness of the players, not the system. When in doubt, have them roll stats in front of you. You'd be amazed how much that cuts down on fudged rolls... ;)
Tytalus 08-10-06, 12:22 AM	Can someone list point buy costs for ability scores, and, if anyone knows this, what's the average score when rolling 4d6, rerolling ones? If you mean what's the pointbuy cost of the average 4D6-DL character, it depends on how you cost ability scores below 8 (which are not possible with pointbuy). You can either give those a cost of 0, a linear negative cost equal to (<value> - 8), or a staggered negative cost similar to the staggered cost for high positive values. This results in slightly different pointbuy equivalents: 0-cost: 30.923 linear: 30.463 staggered: 30.395 As you can see, this is considerably higher than the recommended 25 point buy. Note that pointbuy equivalents for 4D6-DL character can not be calculated by using the average result of a 4D6-DL roll (times 6), as this ignores that a sizable portion (roughly 9.92%) of all possible 4D6-DL characters qualify for a reroll according to the PHB (i.e., sum of bonuses <= 0, or highest score <= 13). The exact way to generate the above numbers is to simulate all possible rolls and discard the invalid ones (requires a bit of math). Alternatively, you can just generate X characters randomly (X being a very large number) to get an approximation.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 05:09 AM	The game is designed around 25 Point Buy (elite array). Living Greyhawk uses 28 Point Buy. A high-powered campaign uses 32 Point buy. Despite what a lot of people say, you can make any character type (MAD etc) successfully with 25 Point Buy.
kelvinaw273 08-10-06, 05:25 AM	4d6 and drop-the-lowest is supposed to be equivilent of a 30-point buy, if that helps. It is hard to judge the two together, because although high scores are more expensive in point-buy, low ones are completely avoidable (not that many "I rolled these honest" sets of stats ever seems to contain a score below 12). The game system was designed around 25 points, as mentioned. In one campaign I have a character with 26-point buy that is perfectly adequate (starting scores 12, 10, 16, 10, 15, 10 for a monk), for my own I use 30 point buy.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 06:04 AM	As for people complaining about MAD characters and 25 Point Buy: Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 …What’s wrong with that?
Calibron 08-10-06, 06:55 AM	And what if the Monk wants a higher Charisma or Intelligence for role-playing purposes? He gets screwed in combat, the Monk's main focus? No thank you.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 06:59 AM	And what if the Monk wants a higher Charisma or Intelligence for role-playing purposes? He gets screwed in combat, the Monk's main focus? No thank you. Okay, then how about this: Human, Monk 1 Str 12, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12 What’s wrong with that?
rogue_lettuce 08-10-06, 06:59 AM	As for people complaining about MAD characters and 25 Point Buy: Human, Monk 1 Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 …What’s wrong with that? Compared to Dwarf, Fight1 Str 18 Dex 8 Con 17 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 8 or something like that, with full plate? Do you have to ask? :P
babysamurai 08-10-06, 07:01 AM	Compared to Dwarf, Fight1 Str 18 Dex 8 Con 17 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 8 or something like that, with full plate? Do you have to ask? :P I’m not asking anything. The monk will still be much more versatile. There’s more to a characters contribution to a party than a high Str and Con.
James18 08-10-06, 08:20 AM	I got REALLY! bored one day and rolled like 100 :eek: charter stats. We always use 4d6, 7 times, drop lowest d6, and lowest total score. Got an average of 80.5 stat points. I didn't use any of the stats for charters I was just wondering if the system we use was making really strong charters. Turns out it did. DM's a cheep ass with the magic and doesn't adjust for it so we kind of need all the help we can get.
X-Codes 08-10-06, 08:36 AM	Point Buy favoring the SAD? 32 PB: Paladin (MAD) - 15 S, 8 D, 14 C, 10 I, 14 W, 16 Ch Wizard (SAD) - 8 S, 14 D, 14 C, 18 I, 12 W, 8 Ch 28 PB: Paladin - 15 S, 8 D, 14 C, 10 I, 14 W, 14 Ch Wizard - 8 S, 12 D, 12 C, 18 I, 12 W, 8 Ch If you want my opinion, the Paladin is clearly getting more out of his stats than the Wizard is.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 08:41 AM	Point Buy favoring the SAD? 32 PB: Paladin (MAD) - 15 S, 8 D, 14 C, 10 I, 14 W, 16 Ch Wizard (SAD) - 8 S, 14 D, 14 C, 18 I, 12 W, 8 Ch 28 PB: Paladin - 15 S, 8 D, 14 C, 10 I, 14 W, 14 Ch Wizard - 8 S, 12 D, 12 C, 18 I, 12 W, 8 Ch If you want my opinion, the Paladin is clearly getting more out of his stats than the Wizard is. I dig what you’ve done. But now do it with 25 Point Buy – the way real men make builds.
LCD2YOU 08-10-06, 09:53 AM	Point Buy favoring the SAD? 32 PB: Paladin (MAD) - 15 S, 8 D, 14 C, 10 I, 14 W, 16 Ch Wizard (SAD) - 8 S, 14 D, 14 C, 18 I, 12 W, 8 Ch 28 PB: Paladin - 15 S, 8 D, 14 C, 10 I, 14 W, 14 Ch Wizard - 8 S, 12 D, 12 C, 18 I, 12 W, 8 Ch If you want my opinion, the Paladin is clearly getting more out of his stats than the Wizard is.I disagree. The Paladin is a target, even heavy armor won't deal with it. Low Dex is a killer. Too much combat rides on it and as a Paladin is a major combatant, they are already behind the 8 ball. Their -1 to initialive makes them the envy right off all the time at the table. Oh, Improved Initiative you say? That's great. Already having to spend their limited number of feats just to not be in the penalty zone from the outset. Will the Paladin actually be better off at "high levels"? Maybe. But it's their being a target in the low levels and what I believe is much a higher mortality rate in those low levels. Even if the synergy makes them "more powerful in higher levels", which nobody has ever shown other than saying it ergo there is no evidence other than say so, it is a completely moot point when you don't live to get there. As for building a 28 point or even 25 point Paladin, I have no problem with that. I feel strongly that the SAD classes get 25 and 23 points respectively as the MAD classes are not balanced relative to the SAD classes on equal points until the high, >35, points.
kelvinaw273 08-10-06, 11:00 AM	And what if the Monk wants a higher Charisma or Intelligence for role-playing purposes? He gets screwed in combat, the Monk's main focus? No thank you. If your monk is only fighting, you are short-changing your monk - as pointed out a monk cannot go up against a straight fighter with optimised strength and con at first level toe-to-toe. Intelligence helps all skills, and monks have good skills. Charisma helps only certain ones, but also opens up later options. Although a Monk is a MAD character and good scores always help, they are not the be-all and end-all. Monks can function under several roles - as scout (good detect and stealth skills), skirmisher, spellcasting protecter/masher, face (remember they get sense motive) and others. As a fighter the monk is useful not because he can outfight the fighter, but because he can fight in circumstances where the fighter cannot. The same goes for other MAD characters like the Bard, Paladin or Ranger. If you use them in only one role, you aren't really using them to their best. Look at the breadth of what they can do, not the depth in only one field.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 11:12 AM	If your monk is only fighting, you are short-changing your monk - as pointed out a monk cannot go up against a straight fighter with optimised strength and con at first level toe-to-toe. Intelligence helps all skills, and monks have good skills. Charisma helps only certain ones, but also opens up later options. Although a Monk is a MAD character and good scores always help, they are not the be-all and end-all. Monks can function under several roles - as scout (good detect and stealth skills), skirmisher, spellcasting protecter/masher, face (remember they get sense motive) and others. As a fighter the monk is useful not because he can outfight the fighter, but because he can fight in circumstances where the fighter cannot. The same goes for other MAD characters like the Bard, Paladin or Ranger. If you use them in only one role, you aren't really using them to their best. Look at the breadth of what they can do, not the depth in only one field. Nicely handled.
LCD2YOU 08-10-06, 11:19 AM	It looks nice but it is flawed. The problem for the MAD classes is even though they have multiple things they can do, their mediocre scores for trying to to all the different things will make them mediocre at best. Like the Paladin with 8 Dex. He's hit first and hit often. He won't live long enough to be a spell caster. Ok, change his 8 Dex to 8 Int. Hope you don't expect much, like deep thought, fromt them. Unless you like you players to metagame as they have an 8 Int on the paper but act like it's an 18. While the Paladin, Ranger and Bard are waiting to be able to do their "other things", their life expectancy is very low and most likely won't live long enough to see it, unless your DM holds back.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 11:23 AM	Ok, change his 8 Dex to 8 Int. Hope you don't expect much, like deep thought, fromt them. That reminds me of that passage in the A&EG - “When your mount is more intelligent than you are.”
LCD2YOU 08-10-06, 11:30 AM	That reminds me of that passage in the A&EG - “When your mount is more intelligent than you are.”Yup. A Paladin with 8 Int. is incredibly linear. They know how to fight, know they are good, but are completely clueless on how to actually do that. Even with a good Wisdom, they will have problems. While wise and possessing great "common sense" they are blind to duplicity coming at them from one, let alone two or more directions. Still, I have no problem with low points for charactres, even the MAD types. I just feel that the SAD types start with less points. The actually number is based on how many points are in the game.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 11:32 AM	Yup. A Paladin with 8 Int. is incredibly linear. They know how to fight, know they are good, but are completely clueless on how to actually do that. Even with a good Wisdom, they will have problems. While wise and possessing great "common sense" they are blind to duplicity coming at them from one, let alone two or more directions. Yeah, but doesn’t naivety sort of suit the paladin?
LCD2YOU 08-10-06, 11:38 AM	Yeah, but doesn’t naivety sort of suit the paladin?Not from what I read on how the Paladin should be able to look and make snap judgements. Besides naivety to me is lower Wisdom, not low Intelligence. I know many really bright guys and girls who are really naive. I think a Paladin should be hoping for the best of others. They are generally not so wide-eyed and wet behind the ears as to believe that is the way all will be. Still they are of the warrior background so they look at things from a warrior's perspective, one who wants to help those that deserve or want to change their ways.
babysamurai 08-10-06, 11:49 AM	Not from what I read on how the Paladin should be able to look and make snap judgements. Besides naivety to me is lower Wisdom, not low Intelligence. I know many really bright guys and girls who are really naive. I still think someone could be incredibly wise, but naïve. Like a Forrester in the big city. "You got fleeced by a pretty girl, again!"
Nephlite 08-10-06, 12:00 PM	I dig what you’ve done. But now do it with 25 Point Buy – the way real men make builds. The True Scotsman argument, 0oh.
Nom 08-10-06, 01:52 PM	As usual, the flawed assumption in this debate is that a paladin (for example) just wants to be a fighter. Nothing stops the paladin dumping Cha and Wis and assigning ability scores as if he were a fighter. However, the class deliberately trades away 1 feat per two levels for a bunch of Cha and Wis driven abilities, so you end up as a feat-less fighter with a magic warhorse, resistance to fear and disease, and some minor SLAs. This is not a flaw in the class design, but a failure to play to the class's strengths. However, if your goal instead was for a more rounded character that is good at several things rather than just focused on one or two scores then paladin looks much more attractive. There are benefits to a fighter for putting scores above 10 in Wis and Cha, especially if your goal is an all-rounder rather than a character who is focused only on combat. However, those benefits are minor compared to what a paladin can do with those scores. Summary: MAD rewards diversity. If you do one thing only and do it really well, then an MAD build is pointless. Instead, MAD is an incentive and reward for having a broad-based ability set. And what if the Monk wants a higher Charisma or Intelligence for role-playing purposes? He gets screwed in combat, the Monk's main focus? No thank you.This indicates the fallacy rather nicely. Let's replace "monk" with "fighter". Assign 14 in Cha and Int on a fighter and you'll have exactly the same issue with lack of ability points as you do with a monk. This isn't an MAD/SAD issue, it's whether you are willing to assign high ability scores to non-core scores. The difference is that a MAD character has more "core" scores, so if you were going to diversify anyway you get more benefit therefrom. While 14 Cha provides only minor benefit to a fighter, it provides significant benefit to a paladin.
LCD2YOU 08-10-06, 02:04 PM	As usual, the flawed assumption in this debate is that a paladin (for example) just wants to be a fighter.Nope. A Paladin at low levels is a fighter with a few more bells and whistles. The casual dismisal of the MAD characters not the equivalent to SAD characters is the flawed assumption. What is a Paladin? They are a warrior with a different benies than the Fighter. As such, when it comes down to combat they should be at least 80 to 85% effective as one right? Like to show if a Paladin is equivalent, I think you should do some statistics between the two. I in no way expect the Paladin to be the equal of the fighter in melee, but if they don't hold a candle, then the MAD classes without the extra points are screwed. Nothing stops the paladin dumping Cha and Wis and assigning ability scores as if he were a fighter. However, the class deliberately trades away 1 feat per two levels for a bunch of Cha and Wis driven abilities, so you end up as a feat-less fighter with a magic warhorse, resistance to fear and disease, and some minor SLAs. This is not a flaw in the class design, but a failure to play to the class's strengths.It's a flaw in the too few number of points to the MAD classes spread out over too many stats.However, if your goal instead was for a more rounded character that is good at several things rather than just focused on one or two scores then paladin looks much more attractive. There are benefits to a fighter for putting scores above 10 in Wis and Cha, especially if your goal is an all-rounder rather than a character who is focused only on combat. However, those benefits are minor compared to what a paladin can do with those scores.At the expense of so many other abilities, yes.Summary: MAD rewards diversity. If you do one thing only and do it really well, then an MAD build is pointless. Instead, MAD is an incentive and reward for having a broad-based ability set.But even with the diversity and too few points, it create mediocrity. Able to do many things is pointless if you can't do them even passibly.This indicates the fallacy rather nicely. Let's replace "monk" with "fighter". Assign 14 in Cha and Int on a fighter and you'll have exactly the same issue with lack of ability points as you do with a monk. This isn't an MAD/SAD issue, it's whether you are willing to assign high ability scores to non-core scores.Non-sequitor. To do this properly you have to match up "like" classes. A Monk and the Warrior classes are not close. But feel free to destroy your own strawmen. Just don't say it has relevance to the Fighter/Paladin example.The difference is that a MAD character has more "core" scores, so if you were going to diversify anyway you get more benefit therefrom. While 14 Cha provides only minor benefit to a fighter, it provides significant benefit to a paladin.Too few points over too many stats lead to minimal, if any, real benefit. If you're going to gimp the Paladin in Intelligence, like I stated, don't expect much in the way of thought, unless you like metagaming from the player. Yeah, plus +2 on saves. Also, if they really don't have many points to spread around trying to get more stats built up, then when you add them up, the "benefit" is so minimal to be pointless. Still in a "save sitaution" where everyone but the Paladin fails the fear spell, they all run save the Paladin. As his 8 Dex has him moving slower anyways due to his initiative modifier, the bad guys get to beat on him and him alone while his friends go screaming. Yup, that's some benifit.
green_yawgmoth 08-10-06, 02:43 PM	I dig what you’ve done. But now do it with 25 Point Buy – the way real men make builds. No, real men roll 4d6 drop, and take what fate decides to give them. :P I'm a gambler at heart, so I can't imagine wanting to generate stats any other way. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Nom 08-10-06, 08:30 PM	Nope. A Paladin at low levels is a fighter with a few more bells and whistles.This is exactly my point. The fighter class is about being an elite front-line combatant. The paladin class is about being a decent front line combatant, plus a divine caster, plus a champion of goodness, plus a commander and rallying point for the entire squad. Admittedly, you can also build this without a paladin if you are willing to choose appropriate feats and abilities, but the paladin is custom-crafted for this purpose. It has often been said that the paladin is more of a PrC than a core class, and this isn't an unreasonable assertion. You also insist on comparing the paladin to a straight fighter, whereas a more appropriate comparison would be a Ftr/Cleric multiclass. Battle-clerics use 5 of the 6 scores (Int is the only potential dump score) but don't get the paladin's MAD bonus on Cha. At the expense of so many other abilities, yes.That's exactly my point; you're not comparing apples to apples. You insist on comparing the paladin to the straight fighter, not to a charismatic fighter / general. Given that you want to play a charismatic fighter, the paladin's MAD capabilities grant far more than the fighter does. Non-sequitor. To do this properly you have to match up "like" classes. A Monk and the Warrior classes are not close.The point of the example is that assigning decent scores to "dump" scores will reduce your ability to focus on your primary scores. This is true regardless of what class you play. The difference is that a paladin or monk can benefit from those otherwise "dump" scores, gaining stacking bonuses. There's also a play-style issue here. I like my PCs to be good at a wide range of stuff, which is why I prefer not to buy over 14 anyway unless it is clearly necessary. As such, the MAD classes play right into my ability assignment strategy. In contrast, a "do one thing really well" strategy doesn't fit MAD. Still in a "save sitaution" where everyone but the Paladin fails the fear spell, they all run save the Paladin. As his 8 Dex has him moving slower anyways due to his initiative modifier, the bad guys get to beat on him and him alone while his friends go screaming. Yup, that's some benifit.Especially if we conveniently ignore the +4 bonus to fear saves that the paladin gives his allies.
babysamurai 08-11-06, 04:44 AM	I like my PCs to be good at a wide range of stuff, which is why I prefer not to buy over 14 anyway unless it is clearly necessary. I thought I was the only one.
LCD2YOU 08-11-06, 11:58 AM	This is exactly my point. The fighter class is about being an elite front-line combatant. The paladin class is about being a decent front line combatant, plus a divine caster, plus a champion of goodness, plus a commander and rallying point for the entire squad.If they get to live long enough. At 1st level, the Paladin has Divine Aura and what Smite Evil? Using the Str15, Dex8, Con14, Int10, Wis14, Cha14, at first level they have HP12. He has the feats Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus, Longsword. Weapon is a Longsword. Armor is Chain Shirt + Heavy Shield so AC is 15 (FF=9) Total Attack Bonus = +4, Damage Bonus = +2 The Fighter has Str16, Dex14, Con14, Int10, Wis,10, Cha10 - HP12 Feats are Dodge, Blindfight and Weapon Focus, Longsword. He has the same arms and armor as the Paladin but his AC is 19(18 vs 2 or more). He is +5 to hit and +3 on damage. The typical MM1 Gnoll has HP11, AC 15, Power Attack, Bonus to hit +3, Great Axe +2 on damage. Here's the thing, a Paladin is more than just a fighter and is not as good as a fighter and I am not argueing that. What I am argueing is that as part of the warrior group, a Paladin should be about 80% as effective as a fighter. Clearly they are not. The Fighter will hit a Gnoll 55% of the time for an average of 7.5 points a hit or 4.125 points a round. A single Gnoll will last 3 rounds against a Fighter, on average. A single Gnoll will hit the Fighter 25% of the time for an average of 6.5 points, or about 1.625 point a round. As the Fighter most likely hits first, having the better initiative, he'll take 3.3 points on average before he drops (remember the fighter swings first on the 3rd round dropping the Gnoll to -1 before the Gnoll gets to swing). On average, a fighter can go through 3 Gnolls, face a 4th, hurt them but still drop. Even if the Fighter loses the initiative, they'll still drop 2 Gnolls only to drop to the 3rd without hitting them. The Paladin will hit the Gnoll 50% of the time for an average of 6.5 points or 3.25 points to a Gnoll on average per round. Letting the Gnoll actually be evil (and some DM not going nuts with the Gnolls being "Usually Chaotic Evil" which in some minds means they are 45% CE but the rest of them could be N, CG even LG) the first swing is a Smite which has a 55% chance to hit for an average of 8.5 points or a one time 4.675 points for the first round. The Gnoll will hit the Paladin 45% of the time for 6.5 or an average of 2.925 points per round. Like the fighter, the Paladin will generally swing first means the first Gnoll will drop in 3 rounds. The Paladin will take an average of 5.85 points. The 2nd Gnoll would have taken the Paladin 4 rounds to drop but unfortunately for the Paladin, he drops on the 3rd round. By the end of the 3rd round, the Gnoll has taken 9.75 or 10 points in damage but at the same time the Paladin has taken 14.625 points (the Paladin could have fallen on the 2nd round). If the Gnoll Actually gets to swing first, the Paladin would only be able to drop one. The 2nd Gnoll would come in and drop the Paladin without taking any damage. Sounds to me like with all of the points the Paladin has to distribute across 5 (I'd say 6 as a dumb Paladin played with Intelligence is what I call Metagaming) stats doesn't leave enough to "combine synergies". For those of you who'll say "Well in higher levels the Paladin....." GREAT! Small problem is that they have to live long enough first to even get there and I haven't seen anything save feelings and no evidence to back it up. Again, if Paladins, who are front line warriors, aren't even 50% the fighter a fighter is (and I don't think the bells and whistles make up for the other 50% even remotely) they are seriously gimped by having them have the same number of points as a SAD character. Don't believe me? Great! Do you're own actually looking what a Paladin has has do the math. Saying, "Well I don't think so" and "This is flawed" without substantiating it means nothing. Put up the evidence if you're going to continue. You can believe all you want but I think you'll find your position is tenous at best.Admittedly, you can also build this without a paladin if you are willing to choose appropriate feats and abilities, but the paladin is custom-crafted for this purpose. It has often been said that the paladin is more of a PrC than a core class, and this isn't an unreasonable assertion.That is very true but as a Core Class, between the demands on the stats, treating them exactly the same as a SAD class is a mistake.You also insist on comparing the paladin to a straight fighter,At low levels that is almost exactly what they are.whereas a more appropriate comparison would be a Ftr/Cleric multiclass.Again if the Paladin lives long enough, that might be true.Battle-clerics use 5 of the 6 scores (Int is the only potential dump score)As it is for Paladins. but don't get the paladin's MAD bonus on Cha.Wow. I guess all of those Clerical spells and Feats from being a Fighter don't do a thing.That's exactly my point; you're not comparing apples to apples. You insist on comparing the paladin to the straight fighter, not to a charismatic fighter / general. Given that you want to play a charismatic fighter, the paladin's MAD capabilities grant far more than the fighter does.Again, there's this living thing. It seems that a Paladin would have a 60% higher mortality rate at 1st to 3rd levels than a fighter. As for Apples to Apples, let's see here: BAB = Same D10 = Same Armor = Same Weapons = Same Yeah, I guess I should use the Mage to compare a Paladin to then.The point of the example is that assigning decent scores to "dump" scores will reduce your ability to focus on your primary scores. This is true regardless of what class you play. The difference is that a paladin or monk can benefit from those otherwise "dump" scores, gaining stacking bonuses.But when the points aren't there, they aren't there and that is a major gimp that is not overcome by the ability to "synergize" the bonuses.There's also a play-style issue here. I like my PCs to be good at a wide range of stuff, which is why I prefer not to buy over 14 anyway unless it is clearly necessary. As such, the MAD classes play right into my ability assignment strategy. In contrast, a "do one thing really well" strategy doesn't fit MAD.As do I. What I'm saying is that the MAD Classes are not going to be able to do that because they will do everything mediocre at best.Especially if we conveniently ignore the +4 bonus to fear saves that the paladin gives his allies.And conveniently ignore the fact that the Paladin is immune to fear at 3rd level, the radius is 10' (get 'em close for the area of effect spells) and a 1st level Scare spell from a 3rd level Mage with an 16 INT (easy for a SAD Character) with Spell Focus Necromancy has a DC 15 Will. The Paladin is of course immune but his Fighter buddy has a 50% of running away in terror. Bring it all up, not just the points that makes your story better. It's up to you to go in and see everything that you are trying to use as so far, it hasn't supported your position.I like my PCs to be good at a wide range of stuff, which is why I prefer not to buy over 14 anyway unless it is clearly necessary.I thought I was the only one.I'm not talking about buying over 14 for the Paladin. Even my 32 vs 28 point Paladin has nothing over 14. What's the point? Remember all I'm saying is if you're playing with MAD classes getting 25 points then SAD characters get 22. In a MAD = 28 point game, SAD gets 25. For MAD = 32, SAD = 28. It makes the MAD Characters the equivalent to SAD characters. I say that at low levels, you know the ones they have to survive through to get to the high levels, these two characters are EQUIVALENT, ie not equal, 25 Point Fighter Str14, Dex14, Con14, Int10, Wis12, Cha9 28 Point Paladin Str14, Dex14, Con11, Int10, Wis13, Cha14 That's what I getting at.
goawayugh 08-11-06, 02:47 PM	what's the average score when rolling 4d6, rerolling ones? Didnt look through the posts, so I dont know if anyone said this already. I've tested rolling 3d6 and rerolling 1 and 2, 4d6 rerolling 1, and 5d6. Believe it or not 4d6 rerolling 1's is the worst with an average of just over 13. 5d6 (take top three) was just better than 3d6, averageing almost 14.