2 repeating crossbows [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 repeating crossbows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
risk_bandit
08-03-07, 09:46 PM my friend wants to try to play a character that has 2 repeating crossbows. i'm suggesting a human or elf with levels in fighter and ranger.

does anyone have suggestions or comments and such? thanks for the help.
doomblade403x
08-03-07, 10:21 PM Exactly how is he to fire two repeating crossbows at once? The japanese had a clip fed crossbow, however it also had a crank lever to load in the next bolt. Something that needed both hands, and not something for the john woo enthusiast. It's your campaign, but if it were me, I would ask the player how his repeating crossbow is supposed to work, and how some one handed rapid fire crossbow is feasible in a campaign setting.
risk_bandit
08-03-07, 11:29 PM the idea is that hes got a wire around the levers and pulls them back with his mouth. its a bit out there and yeah a little john woo but its different. the dm just told us to come up with our ideas and we were trying to find a way to do this. other than a wire i cant think of anything.
12Shark
08-03-07, 11:55 PM I'm pretty sure it was chinese, actually - The Zhuge Nu (Also known as the Chu-Ko-Nu).

Using a wire wouldn't help you, because the whole reload mechanism relies on pushing down then pulling it back up - in fact, you couldn't even fire it without two hands! Not to mention the obvious impossibility of actually pulling back a crossbow string with your mouth and a wire.

Basically, pulling up the lever cocked it, pushing it down shot the bolt.

The best you could do, I think, is to rig it something like a kobold double crossbow (two crossbows mounted together) and have the lever cause them to alternate (so lift shoots one and loads the other, then push shoots the other and reloads the first).

---

Through the magic of Wikipedia, apparently there was a variation on the Repeating Crossbow which had two magazines, that fired two bolts at once using two magazines, but suffered in ranged accuracy (normally not a problem in D&D). That might be an idea, given that it was basically used as a short range gatling gun.
Optimized_Commoner
08-04-07, 12:21 AM Keeping things vaguely working with the rules, I would suggest that if the character wishes to be able to reload the weapon one handed that it must be reduced by one size category, thus making it a small weapon since according to the rules a weapon reduced by a size category is also reduced by one category of how difficult it is to wield.

This would mean his one handed repeating crossbows would have a -2 penalty to attack rolls and only deal 1d6 damage, hold 5 shots and could have those five shots reloaded as a full round action provoking an AoO.

I would recommend that the player take the Rapid Reload feat, to convert the full round reload to a move equivalent action reload.

... of course personally I wouldn't allow a player to reload the weapons one handed, but if you're determined to do so this is the closest way to RAW.
High Octane
08-04-07, 12:59 AM Take away your player's John Woo movies.

ALL OF THEM.
12Shark
08-04-07, 02:40 AM Again, there is no way you could fire a repeating crossbow with one hand - you have to hold it in one arm and operate the lever with the other; unless you're prepared to use a small repeating hand crossbow.

Which would be roughly akin to firing a stapler.

The closest you could get is the double-clipped repeating machinegun-crossbow I described.
Mock26
08-04-07, 03:04 AM Instead of two crossbows, what about a "double-barrelled" crossbow? You could just make it a little wider so that it could fire two bolts side-by-side. All you have to do is thicken reinforce the string in the middle so it does't bend too much and you should be fine. It will also probably reduce the range a bit (maybe 10%?), but that shouldn't be a problem.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-04-07, 03:09 AM Elf, eh? Favoured class wizard.... hmmm.

Suggest he takes a wizard dip (or goes full-on gish) and magics up a pair of unseen servants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unseenServant.htm) to handle the cocking levers on his crossbows while he fires and take care of reloading for him.
Phrennzy
08-04-07, 03:11 AM I had a gnome with a pump action double barrelled crossbow. God I loved it. Was just +1, but the IDEA was cool.

Perhaps the repeating crossbows are loaded by pushing them down on two hooks the PC wears on his belt, which the string snags on and the downward motion cocks them. The bolt slides into place. Presto.

Who cares how. It's cool. Heck, it could be a magically reloading crossbow. That would be cool too.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-04-07, 03:40 AM How does this look for a property for such a weapon?

Automatic

A weapon with this property can be fired one-handed. Additionally, the weapon contains a small extradimensional space that can hold up to 50 clips of bolts (this does not increase the weapon's weight). The weapon does not require reloading if at least one clip has bolts remaining. Clips must be loaded into the weapon individually, removing all the clips from the space requires a full-round action. This property can only be applied to hand crossbows and repeating crossbows (both heavy and light).

Moderate conjuration; CL 10th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, permanency, secret chest, unseen servant; Price 5,000 gp

I gave it a flat price rather than a +# equivalent because it doesn't seem valuable enough to push up the price on other enhancements for the weapon, or count against the +10 equivalent limit.
metalmayhem80110
08-04-07, 04:48 AM He could be a thri-kreen. 4 arms, 1 to hold each crossbow and 1 to re-load.
FifteenthApostle
08-04-07, 06:18 AM How bout usin a Terminator style leaver action reload mechanism.
You could make up a feat that lets him reload by swinging the whole crossbow around with one hand like Arnie :D.

Then all you need is a chopper.
Mock26
08-04-07, 05:54 PM Or, create your own magic item. I once created a pair of rings, each of which could store up to a certain amount of weight in materials (I forget the exact weight at the moment). All you had to do was touch an item to a ring, speak the command word, and the item would be absorbed into the ring. Then, at a later time, think of the item and it would instantly pop into your hands. I store heavy crossbows, all loaded, into each ring. Then, for the first ten rounds of combat I'd call forth a loaded crossbow, fire, and then drop the weapon at my feet. I would continue until I was out of crossbows. It worked out quite well.
KhosatralKhel
08-04-07, 06:19 PM The only way that I can see, w/o homebrew, would be to dual wield handcrossbows with the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (if you dont have Drow of the Und, similar to weapon focus+rapid reload).

Reloading the xbows would be a free action, and precisely how many hands are needed is not mentioned. Thus two crossbows. (I realize this is practically the same as size smaller, kudos to you guys.)
12Shark
08-04-07, 06:54 PM To expand on KhosatralKhel's suggestion, you could further use twin Double Hand Crossbows, which would afford you all four possible attacks, and since they are counted as 'Hand Crossbows', the feat should work on them.

Or you could go with the mental image of firing four crossbow bolts while diving across the room, throwing them to the ground and getting two fresh ones out.

They're detailed in the RoD Kobolds web enhancement.

Kobolds Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
MrCustomer
08-04-07, 09:15 PM I will examine the basic rules for this, it is a cool idea but he will have to be level 5 or 6 before he is effective. Close attention to the rules is in order though, this won't be an easy thing to accomplish.

Page 116 of the Players Handbook says:

"You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever."

It takes considerable force to load a crossbow. The lever on a repeating crossbow is a winch (a circular motion). Neither way can be conceivably done by pulling a wire with your mouth, it simply requires too much force, or in the case of wires and pulleys to much distance. There is no way to reload the crossbows as free actions with one hand.

Reloading both crossbows would require releasing one crossbow to reload the other and vice versa. Loading them both would be two free actions so it would be up to the GM to determine how many free actions you are allowed, (in this case I frown on it and would be tempted to say loading both would be 1 move action). However this is the important part, Page 142 "Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action". So putting away and drawing 2 crossbows is 4 move actions in of itself (2 rounds) Using the Quick Draw feat makes drawing a free action (it would be the GM's call to say putting a weapon away a free action with this feat)

Even being generous and with the Quick Draw feat, drawing/putting away and reloading would add up to 6 free actions. I don't think this is reasonable to give 6 free actions in combination with a full round attack each round, somewhat absurd really.

As for making Multiple attacks,this is what a Repeating crossbow is for, if your character had +6/+1 which would allow him 2 shots per round with primary crossbow (3 shots total), reloading the crossbow while juggling another would be patently absurd in the middle of a full attack round.

Now if the crossbows were magical, and reloaded themselves, this would be feasible, but certainly not an option for a starting, low level character. This would be at least a +1 bonus, which is 2700gp per Heavy Repeating Crossbow(400gp +300gp master worked) +2000gp) 2550gp per Light Repeating Crossbow. That is over 5000gp for the two weapons. Using the Character Wealth by level table (pg 135 DM's Guide) this simply is not reasonable for players less then 5th or 6th level.

Even so, a reapeating Crossbow holds 5 shots, so every 5 rounds he would have to reload the clip, "Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity"

Now lets look at Firing a crossbow with one hand:

"you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand as a -4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing." (with a light crossbow the one-handed penalty is -2)

The two-Weapon Fighting table (page 160) the penalty for fighting with two weapons plus firing a crossbow with one hand.

Using a heavy repeating crossbow in each hand would have the following penalty:
Primary -10, off hand -14
with a heavy crossbow and a light crossbow in the off hand:
Primary -8, off hand -10
With 2-weapon feat:
Primary: -6, Off hand -4

The penalties are harsh for this I am afraid. He could use Hand Crossbows, but they are rather weak as far as damage is concerned.

It's a cool concept, but one that he will need to work for, He will need to aquire the appropriate feats, skills and magic Crossbows in order to hope to be effective at this, so should expect to wait until levels 5 or 6 before he is doing this kind of thing. I would recomend the Ranger or Fighter class for this.

Even so with multiple attacks at level 6, +6/+1 and rapid Shot, the clips only hold 5 bolts, you will run out of shots really quick. The Quick Loading magical enhancement would reload the crossbows but this would be an additional +1 enhancement (quickloading only makes the bolt appear, it doesn't arm the crossbow) that would make for a +2 magic enhancement on the crossbows, that is 8350pg each. 16000gp isn't really an option until level 7 or 8.

I think he should go for it, but use one crossbow until he picks up the magic crossbows. The feats like Rapid Shot, precise shot etc all apply to a single crossbow so they are useful long before he is using 2 crossbows, and he will eventually be pushing out 4 shots per round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
risk_bandit 08-03-07, 09:46 PM	my friend wants to try to play a character that has 2 repeating crossbows. i'm suggesting a human or elf with levels in fighter and ranger. does anyone have suggestions or comments and such? thanks for the help.
doomblade403x 08-03-07, 10:21 PM	Exactly how is he to fire two repeating crossbows at once? The japanese had a clip fed crossbow, however it also had a crank lever to load in the next bolt. Something that needed both hands, and not something for the john woo enthusiast. It's your campaign, but if it were me, I would ask the player how his repeating crossbow is supposed to work, and how some one handed rapid fire crossbow is feasible in a campaign setting.
risk_bandit 08-03-07, 11:29 PM	the idea is that hes got a wire around the levers and pulls them back with his mouth. its a bit out there and yeah a little john woo but its different. the dm just told us to come up with our ideas and we were trying to find a way to do this. other than a wire i cant think of anything.
12Shark 08-03-07, 11:55 PM	I'm pretty sure it was chinese, actually - The Zhuge Nu (Also known as the Chu-Ko-Nu). Using a wire wouldn't help you, because the whole reload mechanism relies on pushing down then pulling it back up - in fact, you couldn't even fire it without two hands! Not to mention the obvious impossibility of actually pulling back a crossbow string with your mouth and a wire. Basically, pulling up the lever cocked it, pushing it down shot the bolt. The best you could do, I think, is to rig it something like a kobold double crossbow (two crossbows mounted together) and have the lever cause them to alternate (so lift shoots one and loads the other, then push shoots the other and reloads the first). --- Through the magic of Wikipedia, apparently there was a variation on the Repeating Crossbow which had two magazines, that fired two bolts at once using two magazines, but suffered in ranged accuracy (normally not a problem in D&D). That might be an idea, given that it was basically used as a short range gatling gun.
Optimized_Commoner 08-04-07, 12:21 AM	Keeping things vaguely working with the rules, I would suggest that if the character wishes to be able to reload the weapon one handed that it must be reduced by one size category, thus making it a small weapon since according to the rules a weapon reduced by a size category is also reduced by one category of how difficult it is to wield. This would mean his one handed repeating crossbows would have a -2 penalty to attack rolls and only deal 1d6 damage, hold 5 shots and could have those five shots reloaded as a full round action provoking an AoO. I would recommend that the player take the Rapid Reload feat, to convert the full round reload to a move equivalent action reload. ... of course personally I wouldn't allow a player to reload the weapons one handed, but if you're determined to do so this is the closest way to RAW.
High Octane 08-04-07, 12:59 AM	Take away your player's John Woo movies. ALL OF THEM.
12Shark 08-04-07, 02:40 AM	Again, there is no way you could fire a repeating crossbow with one hand - you have to hold it in one arm and operate the lever with the other; unless you're prepared to use a small repeating hand crossbow. Which would be roughly akin to firing a stapler. The closest you could get is the double-clipped repeating machinegun-crossbow I described.
Mock26 08-04-07, 03:04 AM	Instead of two crossbows, what about a "double-barrelled" crossbow? You could just make it a little wider so that it could fire two bolts side-by-side. All you have to do is thicken reinforce the string in the middle so it does't bend too much and you should be fine. It will also probably reduce the range a bit (maybe 10%?), but that shouldn't be a problem.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-04-07, 03:09 AM	Elf, eh? Favoured class wizard.... hmmm. Suggest he takes a wizard dip (or goes full-on gish) and magics up a pair of unseen servants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unseenServant.htm) to handle the cocking levers on his crossbows while he fires and take care of reloading for him.
Phrennzy 08-04-07, 03:11 AM	I had a gnome with a pump action double barrelled crossbow. God I loved it. Was just +1, but the IDEA was cool. Perhaps the repeating crossbows are loaded by pushing them down on two hooks the PC wears on his belt, which the string snags on and the downward motion cocks them. The bolt slides into place. Presto. Who cares how. It's cool. Heck, it could be a magically reloading crossbow. That would be cool too.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-04-07, 03:40 AM	How does this look for a property for such a weapon? Automatic A weapon with this property can be fired one-handed. Additionally, the weapon contains a small extradimensional space that can hold up to 50 clips of bolts (this does not increase the weapon's weight). The weapon does not require reloading if at least one clip has bolts remaining. Clips must be loaded into the weapon individually, removing all the clips from the space requires a full-round action. This property can only be applied to hand crossbows and repeating crossbows (both heavy and light). Moderate conjuration; CL 10th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, permanency, secret chest, unseen servant; Price 5,000 gp I gave it a flat price rather than a +# equivalent because it doesn't seem valuable enough to push up the price on other enhancements for the weapon, or count against the +10 equivalent limit.
metalmayhem80110 08-04-07, 04:48 AM	He could be a thri-kreen. 4 arms, 1 to hold each crossbow and 1 to re-load.
FifteenthApostle 08-04-07, 06:18 AM	How bout usin a Terminator style leaver action reload mechanism. You could make up a feat that lets him reload by swinging the whole crossbow around with one hand like Arnie :D. Then all you need is a chopper.
Mock26 08-04-07, 05:54 PM	Or, create your own magic item. I once created a pair of rings, each of which could store up to a certain amount of weight in materials (I forget the exact weight at the moment). All you had to do was touch an item to a ring, speak the command word, and the item would be absorbed into the ring. Then, at a later time, think of the item and it would instantly pop into your hands. I store heavy crossbows, all loaded, into each ring. Then, for the first ten rounds of combat I'd call forth a loaded crossbow, fire, and then drop the weapon at my feet. I would continue until I was out of crossbows. It worked out quite well.
KhosatralKhel 08-04-07, 06:19 PM	The only way that I can see, w/o homebrew, would be to dual wield handcrossbows with the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (if you dont have Drow of the Und, similar to weapon focus+rapid reload). Reloading the xbows would be a free action, and precisely how many hands are needed is not mentioned. Thus two crossbows. (I realize this is practically the same as size smaller, kudos to you guys.)
12Shark 08-04-07, 06:54 PM	To expand on KhosatralKhel's suggestion, you could further use twin Double Hand Crossbows, which would afford you all four possible attacks, and since they are counted as 'Hand Crossbows', the feat should work on them. Or you could go with the mental image of firing four crossbow bolts while diving across the room, throwing them to the ground and getting two fresh ones out. They're detailed in the RoD Kobolds web enhancement. Kobolds Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
MrCustomer 08-04-07, 09:15 PM	I will examine the basic rules for this, it is a cool idea but he will have to be level 5 or 6 before he is effective. Close attention to the rules is in order though, this won't be an easy thing to accomplish. Page 116 of the Players Handbook says: "You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever." It takes considerable force to load a crossbow. The lever on a repeating crossbow is a winch (a circular motion). Neither way can be conceivably done by pulling a wire with your mouth, it simply requires too much force, or in the case of wires and pulleys to much distance. There is no way to reload the crossbows as free actions with one hand. Reloading both crossbows would require releasing one crossbow to reload the other and vice versa. Loading them both would be two free actions so it would be up to the GM to determine how many free actions you are allowed, (in this case I frown on it and would be tempted to say loading both would be 1 move action). However this is the important part, Page 142 "Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action". So putting away and drawing 2 crossbows is 4 move actions in of itself (2 rounds) Using the Quick Draw feat makes drawing a free action (it would be the GM's call to say putting a weapon away a free action with this feat) Even being generous and with the Quick Draw feat, drawing/putting away and reloading would add up to 6 free actions. I don't think this is reasonable to give 6 free actions in combination with a full round attack each round, somewhat absurd really. As for making Multiple attacks,this is what a Repeating crossbow is for, if your character had +6/+1 which would allow him 2 shots per round with primary crossbow (3 shots total), reloading the crossbow while juggling another would be patently absurd in the middle of a full attack round. Now if the crossbows were magical, and reloaded themselves, this would be feasible, but certainly not an option for a starting, low level character. This would be at least a +1 bonus, which is 2700gp per Heavy Repeating Crossbow(400gp +300gp master worked) +2000gp) 2550gp per Light Repeating Crossbow. That is over 5000gp for the two weapons. Using the Character Wealth by level table (pg 135 DM's Guide) this simply is not reasonable for players less then 5th or 6th level. Even so, a reapeating Crossbow holds 5 shots, so every 5 rounds he would have to reload the clip, "Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity" Now lets look at Firing a crossbow with one hand: "you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand as a -4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing." (with a light crossbow the one-handed penalty is -2) The two-Weapon Fighting table (page 160) the penalty for fighting with two weapons plus firing a crossbow with one hand. Using a heavy repeating crossbow in each hand would have the following penalty: Primary -10, off hand -14 with a heavy crossbow and a light crossbow in the off hand: Primary -8, off hand -10 With 2-weapon feat: Primary: -6, Off hand -4 The penalties are harsh for this I am afraid. He could use Hand Crossbows, but they are rather weak as far as damage is concerned. It's a cool concept, but one that he will need to work for, He will need to aquire the appropriate feats, skills and magic Crossbows in order to hope to be effective at this, so should expect to wait until levels 5 or 6 before he is doing this kind of thing. I would recomend the Ranger or Fighter class for this. Even so with multiple attacks at level 6, +6/+1 and rapid Shot, the clips only hold 5 bolts, you will run out of shots really quick. The Quick Loading magical enhancement would reload the crossbows but this would be an additional +1 enhancement (quickloading only makes the bolt appear, it doesn't arm the crossbow) that would make for a +2 magic enhancement on the crossbows, that is 8350pg each. 16000gp isn't really an option until level 7 or 8. I think he should go for it, but use one crossbow until he picks up the magic crossbows. The feats like Rapid Shot, precise shot etc all apply to a single crossbow so they are useful long before he is using 2 crossbows, and he will eventually be pushing out 4 shots per round.