Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duder_X 01-31-05, 11:28 PM	I'm starting a campaign in a few days, and I'm playing a ranger. I'm wondering if it would be a better idea to use a longsword in two hands, or a longsword and short sword. I think at least for the first few levels (until I get 2-weapon fighting) that 2-handed longsword would be better, but at what point is 2-weapon fighting the better choice?
Lina_Inverse 01-31-05, 11:35 PM	the correct answer is always greatsword, spikedchain, fists, claws, fireballs,or twin shortswords with sneak attack. two weapon fighting is only usefull for rogues.as there damage is independant of everything except #of attacks and to-hit really.
Draco Strang 01-31-05, 11:48 PM	Ah.....the classic debate. I've always been a fan of the old longsword/dagger combo. You can take that fighting style feat in complete warrior that lets you try a disarm attempt each time you hit with both. Twin shorts swords can't be discounted enough. (Twin Scimitars can....never ever dual wield those things) Greatsword/greataxe debate still ranges strong. Pick what you like sir.
Wizard 01-31-05, 11:59 PM	Twin short swords can be VERY nice, though I would love to build a 2WF ranger that used the Crescent Moon feat from CW. That's just tight. Anyway, if you're having no trouble hitting things, then you should prolly go TWF instead of THF. If you're really hurtin' for stats, go swordNboard.
Kulthos 02-01-05, 12:55 AM	For a fighter, two-handed weapons combined with power attack and cleave are the best. Any round where you don't get a full attack, you get your main big hit in as opposed to "half" your power with twf. Also, you get more benifit from haste and attacks of opportunity. As one final big advantage, you don't have to burn a bunch of feats as you gain levels. For a rogue, TWF is the way to go. My personal favorite is a bastard sword and spiked armor or gauntlets. You can hit with both hands on AoOs and charges and two weapons on full attacks. You also have one hand free for throwing darts and whatnot.
Wizard 02-01-05, 02:08 AM	Originally posted by Kulthos:You can hit with both hands on AoOs and charges Uhhh...no? Let's take a little trip through chapter 8: The Combat Section---not a fun trip for some people. On your right, attacks of opportunity. All appendages inside the vehicle, please. Now, if you look closely in the "Making an Attack of Opportunity" section, right near the top, you'll see PHB, p. 137: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack. Further up, charging. Check around the middle folks---the charge text is notorious for hiding out. Ahh! There he is! PHB, p. 155: Attacking on a charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. This concludes our short tour of Chapter 8. Hope you took notes, folks! Visit us at any time!
danielinthewolvesden 02-01-05, 02:31 AM	Usually, a Two-handed weapon is better- given a high STR, and the feats PA, & Cleave especially. But a ranger gets TWF (and more) for "free". Thus, if behooves him (well, unless he's an archer ranger, but that's not the case here) to take a bit more DEX, and a bit less STR and Improved Buckler Defense.
Shir 02-01-05, 05:39 AM	Wizard, I think you missread. Kulthos is basically right. On a charge or AoO the character can use his bastardsword as a 2-handed weapon (one attack, one hit). On a full attack the character can use his TWF feat to attack with his bastardsword (1-handed) as a primary weapon and armor spikes as secondary weapon. Assuming this rogue has a way to use a bastard sword one-handed. I do not know whether it is allowed to attack with a 2-handed weapon as primary weapon and then use armor spikes as a secondary weapon. As a DM I would allow it though.
Zao Fato 02-01-05, 06:03 AM	That said, I have seen some really nice 2 Weapon Fighting guys in Campaigns before, and nothing is more scary than a Swashbuckler/Dervish with 2 Weapons (Scimitars) That said the new Complete Adventure really boosted the combat proess of the 2 Weapon Fighting Style by adding a nice number of feats and 1 Prc. The two Handed Style is really good though, although can lack in Armour, as I have noted in my last campaign. The Party had at epic levels a maximum armour class of 35, and one went from AC 34 to 24, because of Rags etc. And I found that AC is still useful up to Epic levels, namely why I am going for a Sword and Board Spellsword
e-z0r 02-01-05, 06:11 AM	I do not know whether it is allowed to attack with a 2-handed weapon as primary weapon and then use armor spikes as a secondary weapon. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) I wouldn't allow a two-handed strike and an armor spike strike in the same round. The system is versatile because you can use the bastard as a two-handed weapon when you can't make a full attack, so you'll deal more damage with the one attack (with power-attack even more damage), and when you have enough time for a full attack you switch to one-handed bastard using and spike him with your armor as an off hand attack. Although, any weapon can be used as a two-handed weapon because of the lame rules of the game. As we all know, the distinguishing detail between a bastard sword and a longsword is not in fact so much the length of the blade but length of the grip, allowing the bastard to be used 2-handed at will, where a longsword's grip is just too small. As the rules stand, however, I would not spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency (also stupid, because they're both pretty similar swords. Sure, they have differences in their technique, but definately not enough to warrant needing an exotic weapon feat. They're for example much more similar between themselves than a longsword and a guisarme (both martial weapons)) just to get the bastard sword, as you can basically use a longsword and it'll serve the same purpose, and there are more magical longswords out there than bastards. A buckler will come in handy, as will a couple of buckler feats.
CzarGarrett 02-01-05, 09:22 AM	Since you're going to be a ranger, I suggest the following course of action. Carry a longsword or greatsword, a short sword, and one other different weapon type. Check with Complete Warrior and your DM- go one for one the fighting styles, like when you use a sword and hammer, you can stun your opponent for a round or something like that. When fighting high HP, low armor creatures, go with with longsword/greatsword. When fighting multiple creatures, go two handed- short sword and hammer/axe/mace.
Beamup 02-01-05, 10:10 AM	You'll get the most damage output by using a greatsword and picking the Archery style.
Wizard 02-01-05, 11:05 AM	Kulthos, I reread your post, and welcome back from your tour. Guess you didn't have a ticket after all... ---Errr...I'm pretty sure you can use a longsword two-handed. Whether it counts as 2-handed or not for purposes of disarming & such is under debate, but you can do it for the extra damage. Why would be told that the THF damage bonus doesn't apply to light weapons if it didn't apply to one-handed weapons? And why would it apply if we couldn't use it that way?
e-z0r 02-01-05, 11:33 AM	Yes, you can use a longsword two-handed by RAW. I was pointing out, that as stupid as the longsword-bastard sword mechanics are, in their current state I don't think it pays up to use an EWP feat to get bastard sword prof.
Twisted Puppy 02-02-05, 10:32 AM	Yes, you can use a longsword two-handed by RAW. I was pointing out, that as stupid as the longsword-bastard sword mechanics are, in their current state I don't think it pays up to use an EWP feat to get bastard sword prof. If you have a human character, I'd say go ahead and use your bonus feat on EWP: bastard sword. I am assuming you'll take the TWF track for the ranger. You can use it two handed against better armored opponents and still do more damage (albeit only 1 point average) than a longsword. When you get to a higher level, sufficient groveling will probably get the DM to let you acquire a SunBlade. IMX pizza is usually a sufficient bribe for this. Personally, I prefer the archery track for a ranger to the TWF track. Not that it is "better" or "more effective," just a preference.
the_narrator 02-02-05, 11:49 AM	real men use two weapons. well, as everyone's said, there's pros and cons to both sides of the argument. with two weapons, you get another attack, albiet at a penalty, and that can work out to do more damage than a two-hander. on the other hand, with a great sword or whatever, you have no penalty, and can do, statistically, one more damage. i never put faith in odds or statistics, though. myself, i like the TWF track. i'm a fan of having many attacks. plus, as a ranger, you aren't blowing feats by doing it.
Beamup 02-02-05, 02:05 PM	real men use two weapons. well, as everyone's said, there's pros and cons to both sides of the argument. with two weapons, you get another attack, albiet at a penalty, and that can work out to do more damage than a two-hander. on the other hand, with a great sword or whatever, you have no penalty, and can do, statistically, one more damage. i never put faith in odds or statistics, though. Unfortunately that's not an accurate analysis. With two weapons, you get two attacks at a penalty. And if both attacks hit, you'll do the SAME damage as a two-hander. Once you start considering Power Attack and the lesser cost of enhancing one weapon... well, TWF really becomes a very weak option. The fundamental tradeoff you make is that you spend multiple feats and more money to hit less (per round) and do less damage (per round). Unless you've got a BIG source of extra damage per hit from somewhere (i.e. Sneak Attack) it just isn't effective.
danielinthewolvesden 02-02-05, 02:16 PM	For TWF rangers- I strongly suggest not spending a single feat on any one weapon. Byt being "the guy who is flexible' you'll end up with interesting & powerful weapons the big "power hitters" (all specialists) don't want. Beamup- I sorta agree with you- in that I agree that spending the feats to "buy" TWF is not optimal. But Rangers get it "for free", and there are advantages- such as cold iron in one hand, and silver in another. Improved Buckler Defence made TWF worthwhile, IMHO.
Beamup 02-02-05, 02:19 PM	Beamup- I sorta agree with you- in that I agree that spending the feats to "buy" TWF is not optimal. But Rangers get it "for free" Incorrect. Rangers pay three feats to get the TWF chain, just like anybody else. They just don't get to CHOOSE what else those feats could be. Losing Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot is not, by any meaningful definition, "for free."
Thoronmir 02-02-05, 03:13 PM	Incorrect. Rangers pay three feats to get the TWF chain, just like anybody else. They just don't get to CHOOSE what else those feats could be. Losing Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot is not, by any meaningful definition, "for free." So, we don’t get Track or Endurance for “free” either since we don’t get to decide what feats we take? I don’t get my Animal Companion for “free” since, by choosing a Riding Dog, I’ve had to forego other options such as Whooping Crane and Mongoose? Having to choose between two alternatives does not mean the feats are not “free.” Some bonus (i.e., “free”) feats are more narrowly defined than others. The gist of Daniel’s point is valid. Since the OP obviously does not intend to follow the archer’s path, he will get TWS free as a Ranger. After all, passing on Many Shot, etc., is hardly a burden if I never planned to use them.
Beamup 02-02-05, 04:05 PM	So, we don’t get Track or Endurance for “free” either since we don’t get to decide what feats we take? I don’t get my Animal Companion for “free” since, by choosing a Riding Dog, I’ve had to forego other options such as Whooping Crane and Mongoose? Having to choose between two alternatives does not mean the feats are not “free.” I suggest you read up on the concept of "opportunity cost." Fundamentally, the something is NOT free if and only if you have to choose between two (or more) alternatives of what to get. So for a ranger, Track and Endurance are free, because you're not giving something up to get them. Getting an animal companion is similarly free, because you give up nothing for it. But choosing an animal companion is indeed not free, because you are giving up the option of choosing a different one. The TWF feats are similarly NOT free because you are giving up the archery feats to get them. Conversely, the archery feats are ALSO not free because you are giving up the TWF feats to get them. The gist of Daniel’s point is valid. Since the OP obviously does not intend to follow the archer’s path, he will get TWS free as a Ranger. After all, passing on Many Shot, etc., is hardly a burden if I never planned to use them. Which is better? - Taking TWF style, using a Greatsword (which is still a MUCH better option even if you already have the TWF feats, as I explained), and getting no bonuses from your combat style, ever. - Taking Archery style, using a Greatsword, and having superior capabilities in the inevitable cases where you don't want to/can't close to melee. Simply put, if you want to maximize your melee damage output as a straight Ranger, then you will never use TWF even if that's the combat style you picked. Similarly, you will almost inevitably end up using archery sometimes, whether or not that's the style you picked. Does this mean TWF style should never be picked? No. If you're going to be multiclassing or going into a PrC that can make good use of TWF, it's a good choice of style. But for a straight Ranger, it is something you take only if you want to deliberately handicap yourself for the sake of style - which, while a valid option, is not how the original question was phrased.
the_narrator 02-02-05, 05:39 PM	ok, here's the best way to do it: don't listen to a single word ANYONE, including myself has said previous. now, take a look at your character concept. sit back and think. say to yourself, "what do i really want?" "what would my character use?" basically the differences in the two styles are pretty insignificant. more damage with a greatsword, more attacks with two weapons. power attack this, enchant that. whatever. it's down to what you think is cool, and what you want to do. if you want to just be the classic ranger, go for the archery tree, and carry around a greatsword, or a bastard sword for a bit more versatility. if you want to be like Drizzt Do'urden (just a suggestion, not saying your character's a clone) or a more stealthy and opportunistic ranger, go TWF. heck, take a level or so of rogue if you really want the extra damage. i find ranger/ rogues a very cool combo.
danielinthewolvesden 02-02-05, 08:45 PM	Losing Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Improved Precise Shot is not, by any meaningful definition, "for free." They are since the OP already stated his intention to be a Melee Ranger. Read & Learn. See my 1st post here. :teach:
Wizard 02-02-05, 11:22 PM	One thing to keep in mind (and I won't take credit for this thought, because some other poster mentioned it on another thread, though I can't recall who) is that at higher levels, very little damage comes from the base damage of the weapon. Most of it comes from weapon specialization, sneak attack, favored enemy bonuses, magical enhancements to the weapon, strength bonuses, and power attack. So while base damage and penalties to hit (TWF) are more important at low levels, they don't matter as much at higher levels because by that time in most creatures' progression, they've specialized---either they'll have a very high AC, or one you won't have much trouble at all hitting. Also, it is important to keep the expense factor in mind. That doesn't really point you toward either style in particular, except that, from a min/max point of view, weapons with a high crit range/multiplier will be your friend in the long run.
Beamup 02-03-05, 09:31 AM	They are since the OP already stated his intention to be a Melee Ranger. Read & Learn. See my 1st post here. :teach: And, as I explained in my posts, abilities you may use occasionally (because they aren't your primary style, yet are still useful situationally) are superior to abilities you will never, ever use no matter what. The Archery style still has value to a melee-focused character, since melee is not always possible or practical. The TWF style has NO value to a melee-focused Ranger unless said Ranger is deliberately handicapping himself. For ANY style of straight Ranger, the Archery path is the superior damage-dealing choice. Period. In fact, a hypothetical combat style chain based off Skill Focus(Craft(Basketweaving)) would be a superior choice to TWF, because at least you wouldn't be tempted to actually use it in a fight!
Nytmare 02-03-05, 10:23 AM	You'll get the most damage output by using a greatsword and picking the Archery style. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Even if your DM allowed this, I can't imagine that you'd be able to carry enough great swords in a quiver to make this a viable strategy. Hmmm... Unles archery covers ballistae?
Beamup 02-03-05, 02:09 PM	Even if your DM allowed this, I can't imagine that you'd be able to carry enough great swords in a quiver to make this a viable strategy. Don't be ridiculous. If I have to spell it out for you, you use the GREATSWORD in melee and the ARCHERY (with your bow, you know, your OTHER weapon?) when you don't want to or can't close to melee range. Seriously, it doesn't get any more obvious than that.
danielinthewolvesden 02-03-05, 03:57 PM	And, as I explained in my posts, abilities you may use occasionally (because they aren't your primary style, yet are still useful situationally) are superior to abilities you will never, ever use no matter what. The Archery style still has value to a melee-focused character, since melee is not always possible or practical. The TWF style has NO value to a melee-focused Ranger unless said Ranger is deliberately handicapping himself. For ANY style of straight Ranger, the Archery path is the superior damage-dealing choice. Period. In fact, a hypothetical combat style chain based off Skill Focus(Craft(Basketweaving)) would be a superior choice to TWF, because at least you wouldn't be tempted to actually use it in a fight! So, your postulate is that TWF is so stupidly weak, that taking feats you'll never use is better? :rolleyes: Look, freind- there are many proponents of both styles here on the boards. In the main, it has been shown that THW (with a decent STR and associated feats) is a bit better than TWF- especially if you have to burn the feats to get TWF (which I admit is a bad idea unless you're a rogue). But now that Improved Buckler defense is out there, TWF is now nearly as good and is just fine if you basicly get the feats for free. My TWF ranger owns a str comp bow. So far, he has never needed to use it in 8 levels (he does toss Holy water, & Alchemist fire once in a while). When he gets a FAO, he turns into a veritiable Osterizer of Death. Note that the bonus from "favoured enemy" applies to each hit- thus 4 hits= 4X bonus. As opposed to 2 hits= X2 bonus. And, he gets a +3 a/c bonus from a mere +2 buckler and one feat. He is one of the most effective killers in the party, beating out the "sword & board", the "THW barbarian" and the super-archer consitently in number of kills (The Wizard edges even me out, I'll admit). Yes, THW style is slightly superior to TWF, esp with a Fighter or Barbarian. But it isn't that much superior. It works with a Ranger. Note that it allows a weapon of silver in one hand and cold iron in the other, it allows the use of a shield/buckler, and it allows one to have the same weapon in each hand and get the specific weapon feat bonuses with both hands.
Wil Harvey 02-03-05, 06:30 PM	Don't be ridiculous. If I have to spell it out for you, you use the GREATSWORD in melee and the ARCHERY (with your bow, you know, your OTHER weapon?) when you don't want to or can't close to melee range. Seriously, it doesn't get any more obvious than that. Um, in the course of being an ass throughout this conversation, you failed to realize that the poster you replied to was joking. I mean, seriously, it doesn't get any more obvious than that.
mcnoo 02-04-05, 12:31 PM	Never understimate the power of a pair of keen picks if you have improved critical.
James Wildspell 02-04-05, 06:52 PM	Never understimate the power of a pair of keen picks if you have improved critical. Too bad Improved Critical does not stack with Keen, or any other effect that expands the critical threat range. :twocents: :twocents:
eRaz0r 02-04-05, 08:45 PM	I understand your argument. If you have 2WF and use a greatsword, then you'll never use 2WF and therefore it's a waste. On the other hand, if you have the Archery chain, then you will occaisionally use a bow, whenever it's not practical to use the greatsword, and therefore, you'll get a benefit. I'd like to add a couple of things: 1/ You can use Armor spikes with 2WF and a Greatsword. 2/ As a ranger, you don't have to have the super-high dex to meet the prereq's for 2WF, and therefore can put more into STR than other characters who would like to take 2WF. This makes you more effective than those characters in doing damage (usually). (although not necessarily as effective as a single two hander in one strike doubling his STR bonus). Furthermore, since the Archery chain will still benefit from a higher dex, you will get less benefit out of that chain with the lower dex you need for 2WF. 3/ Mixing in a level or 3 of Rogue gives you additive bonuses that stack with each attack (in the right situations). This is a good thing for 2WF. As was mentioned, favored enemy bonuses stack with each attack as well. 4/ If you have multiple enchanted weapons you can mix up their enhancements and so forth to cover more bases. On the other hand 1/ No matter how much STR you have, you still can't get as much oomph from your +STR bonus with 2WF as you do with a power attacking 2 handed weapon. 2/ The expense of getting multiple enchanted weapons is pretty high. A single +5 Greatsword is far cheaper than 2 +5 shortswords. 3/ If you drop Dex for STR so as to get more damage (because you don't need the high Dex for the prereq's) your AC is going to suffer because you don't get heavy armor. All in all, I agree with an earlier poster. Pick the style you like the best and go with it. Not everything is about damage output. Sometimes, it's about style.