Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kimokeo 07-07-07, 10:50 PM	It is said that the non-caster, say a fighter in particular, has absolutely no chance to win a fight against a spellcaster, say a druid in particular. So, I've been considering how to beat the caster, any caster using a fighter. Taking two 20th level characters, staying only with the core: DMG, PHB, and MM only, with the gold as described in the DMG, can it be done? I've been considering the Ring of Djinni Summoning or even cheaper, the Elemental Gem for an Air Elemental. My purpose is to bring forth a very fast flying assistant. Once brought forth, a little packet is provided to my friend who then flies to the druid or any other caster. Once within range, the flying buddy releases the dust of sneezing and choking. Regardless of how wonderful the caster is with saves, there is an automatic 5d4 rounds of stun. Is there any other way to deliver the package faster? Once stunned, the flying fighter will defeat any said caster and their companions as they are most likely also with the caster that early in the combat.
runestar 07-07-07, 11:11 PM	The problem with your strategy is that it relies exclusively on magic items, which anyone can access, rather than with your class features. So even if you win, it still does not prove anything. In theory, what is to stop the spellcaster from doing the exact same thing? It then boils down to who wins initiative, burns that candle of invocation, and summons a solar first...? A commoner20 could win using the exact strategy.
Kimokeo 07-07-07, 11:18 PM	The question was how to deliver the package faster.
runestar 07-07-07, 11:30 PM	Item of teleport. Zip on top of your foe and drop the dust (move actions?)
WIUGamers 07-07-07, 11:40 PM	Well, I believe a level 20 Monk would stand a better chance against the Druid. They are naturally more attoned to battle spells. Try taking a level or 2 in Monk and gaining evasion. All 20 levels would be best but if it's just for a fighter than get a way to escape the spells. For the dust.....hello.....abundant step....release the dust....find something to slowfall on.
Damuna 07-07-07, 11:45 PM	All 20 is slightly pointless, considering that the damage reduction they receive has its weakness as magic.
WIUGamers 07-08-07, 12:30 AM	Definently get the ki blast feat.....just in case mr. "i can fly" flies up.
TheDarkLord 07-08-07, 12:43 AM	No class, including CoDzilla (or CaDzilla if gestalted) can beat a prepared Wizard at 20th level. He has to many resources, to many spells, and to many contingencies to fire off before even the most Bad Ass of a character can even lay eyes on him.
mkill 07-08-07, 12:56 AM	The base classes were never designed to be balanced in one-on-one duels. It's simply not what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to work together in a 4 to 6 character party that goes dungeoneering and monster hunting. Asking "if class A would fight class B, who would win" is like asking "if a knife would fight a fork, who would win", and any mommy would answer "stop fooling around and start eating, son".
trapspringer 07-08-07, 03:28 AM	No class, including CoDzilla (or CaDzilla if gestalted) can beat a prepared Wizard at 20th level. He has to many resources, to many spells, and to many contingencies to fire off before even the most Bad Ass of a character can even lay eyes on him. Yep. Contingency FTW. Also, I'd like to point out that your equipment begins to eclipse your character at levels 20+, so the dude who was all like "nuh-uh-huh, cause you used stuff!" is right, but only technically. It'd be true of nearly everyone, including the wizard dude.
Psikerlord 07-08-07, 04:15 AM	Comes down to initiative I reckon: 20th level fighter with a ring of spell storing antimagic field. Win initiative, activate ring - contingency negated - grapple. End of wizard. If wizard wins initiative on the other hand - otto's irrestible dance. End of fighter.
PhaedrusXY 07-08-07, 09:43 AM	Comes down to initiative I reckon: 20th level fighter with a ring of spell storing antimagic field. Win initiative, activate ring - contingency negated - grapple. End of wizard. If wizard wins initiative on the other hand - otto's irrestible dance. End of fighter.It takes a standard action to activate the ring. So that gives the wizard a chance to just move out of it, and teleport away, unless you grapple him before activating the ring. In which case, he can still Dimension Door/Teleport away. You need a spiked chain wielder with Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer, and Improved Grapple, who also has access to an Antimagic Field somehow. It takes a "dedicated" mage slaying character to really pull this off effectively. There is a link in my sig to a thread on making such characters.
Drag0nUL 07-08-07, 10:36 AM	Unfortunately, as other posters have stated, at level 20 magic items have become so strong that they tend to weigh more(in a duel at least) than actual class abilities. The last 20th level duel I have been in (also fighter vs. druid) came down to being helm of AMF vs. ring of three wishes.
Furion Thamior 07-08-07, 11:02 AM	A core-only fighter against a core-only wizard will never win in a straight-up arena style fight. Adding more books helps the wizard FAR more than the fighter. Ultimately, you have to impose so many restrictions (like no contingency, no pre buffing, no prep rounds, ect - all things that nerf the wizard with little effect on the actual abilities of the fighter), or put the wizard in a one-sided situation before the fighter has a chance *assuming* he wins initative.
Aminvelos 07-08-07, 11:11 AM	A faster way to deliver the stuff would be an arrow with oil impact and a small pouch of this dust at the end. Of course both of these scenario's assume there is no windwall on the wizard.
Karish 07-08-07, 01:37 PM	Be a warforged with a permanent anitmagic field cast on you. :o
Leo 07-08-07, 01:53 PM	Altough I hate to admit it, whenever I manage to make an arcane caster in such high levels, I ALWAYS make sure to have my own personal army of zombies/dominated/clones/golems/contructs/charmed/plane binded monstruosities always around me(as a living wall) wherever I go. Heck, I may even disguise myself as one of them so whoever tries to attacck me ends up killing one of my expendable minions Well, but the there's leadership feat, or hiring/summoning hirelings Yep, money and magic items make D&D go round.
Erato 07-08-07, 02:15 PM	Be a warforged with a permanent anitmagic field cast on you. :o But the wizard could just fly out of range and throw non-magical things at you, until you die. Maybe something with a fly-speed would have a chance, albeit a small one :)
Leo 07-08-07, 02:23 PM	But the wizard could just fly out of range and throw non-magical things at you, until you die. Maybe something with a fly-speed would have a chance, albeit a small one :) Cough buy a flying mount cough spirited charge for triple damage
lint trap 07-08-07, 02:59 PM	The question was how to deliver the package faster. Uh...throw it?
Psikerlord 07-08-07, 05:05 PM	PhaedrusXY; yes you're right, I forgot! The fighter would need a belt of battle (MIC) or action surge feat (eberron) to pull off the extra standard action in one round.
Leo 07-08-07, 06:02 PM	PhaedrusXY; yes you're right, I forgot! The fighter would need a belt of battle (MIC) or action surge feat (eberron) to pull off the extra standard action in one round. Belt of battle is one of those obscenely good items that EVERY character should get one as soon as possible.
Heros_Backpack 07-09-07, 12:20 PM	Sneak up on the wizard when he's asleep and coup de gras him with something exceedingly damaging?
Eater_Of_Souls 07-09-07, 12:29 PM	Take a drow (or some other race with suitable SR) and beef it with some proper "insane spell resist munchkin crap" -prestige class. If you use core books only then your fighter has the chances of a snowball in hell tbh.
Soluphobe 07-09-07, 01:36 PM	Actually, there is a way: Insist on going no-items. This means fighter maxs out in Unarmed Strike stuff. The wizard burns a feat on Eschew Materials. Now, have the following conversation: Fighter: Hah! I win. Wizard: Time Stop. Gate. You die. Fighter: How did you get those spells? You have no spellbook, remember? Wizard: Spell Mastery! Fighter: But you have to have to know the spells to use that feat! Wizard: I do know those spells! See, here's my spell list! Fighter: But you can't learn them if you never had your spellbook! Wizard: What the...? Fighter: I mean, think about it. A wizard gets his power from a spellbook, so if you never had a spellbook (as in this scenario), you never learned any spells! Wizard: That's like saying you need a sword to learn how to fight. Fighter: No. A cleric gets spells from his/her deity of choice, and a wizard gets spells from a spellbook. Simple enough? Wizard: Incorrect! Spell Mastery was taken at the moment I learned the spells- Fighter: -Before you made sense of the mystical squigglings of your master's notes (which you never had)- Wizard: -Don't interrupt me! And I didn't 'make sense' of the spells at all, I just...knew them. Fighter: That's absurd! Wizard: *Generic statement about people with Int 13 casting fireball* Fighter: *Generic statement about humans with seven arms* Random Poster: Kitties!!!!!!11111!11 WizO: *BAN* Happy?
BloodDragon 07-09-07, 01:48 PM	Is there any other way to deliver the package faster? Once stunned, the flying fighter will defeat any said caster and their companions as they are most likely also with the caster that early in the combat. Well I'm sure this strategy might work, but it's not using fighters own strengths. It relies on magic items and a summoned ally… but not the fighter himself. Also… What if the spell caster uses the same strategy? Only he doesn’t have to burn any rings of calling or such to do so.
Leo 07-09-07, 01:50 PM	Sneak up on the wizard when he's asleep and coup de gras him with something exceedingly damaging? Rule number 1 of being a wizard: Be a complete paranoid. Put alarms wherever you go. Buff yourself with as much contigencies as possible. Get magic permanent minions to watch you all the time. Hmm, that's probably the reason why so many people prefer the sorceror over the wizard. You have to worry about lots of things such as protecting the spellbook, protecting yourself, preparing the right sepls for the day, what to craft, etc, etc. The sorceror? Sleep 8 hours and ready to go.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 07-09-07, 01:53 PM	The sorceror? Sleep 8 hours and ready to go. And he is somehow immune to being stabbed in the gut? Good logic here Leo.
Drag0nUL 07-09-07, 02:04 PM	Rule number 1 of being a wizard: Be a complete paranoid. You have to worry about lots of things such as protecting the spellbook, protecting yourself, preparing the right sepls for the day, what to craft, etc, etc. Indeed. My DM used to pull this sort of pranks on characters (getting rid of the cleric's holy symbol, wizard's spellbook, dangerous magic items etc. and all with perfectly good in game motivation. That's why my 16th level wizard (a gish actually but that's beside the point) ended up with a magical adamantine spellbook, permanently invisible (you had to open it to become visible), arcane locked, with secret page on all pages, and the first few pages and some random ones within the spellbook containing nasty stuff ranging form explosive runes to symbol of death. In the end it was worth it. Reading this book killed both a rogue that had stolen it and the BBEG wizard that got it after my character died.
zelf_gale 07-09-07, 04:19 PM	You should realize that Non-caster vs caster duels are also not representative of the genre. Fantasy duels are almost exclusively of two categories. 1) The protagonist, whether a caster or not, is aware or discovers an "Achilles Heel" in his opponents defenses and receives a chance to exploit it, often via an opponent's underestimation of the protagonists abilities. The caster or non-caster opponent is "prepared beyond possibility of defeat" and ignores a potential weakness until it is too late. 2) The protagonist and the opponent are of reasonably equal power and comparable abilities. Gladiator's Arenas contain non-caster melee combatants, Wizard Duels contain arcane casters, etc. In this case the protagonist often wins as result of force of will, conviction in beliefs, or tactical skill. Opponents from our forums on the other hand have divergent ability compositions and continue to adapt to changing combat environments without ignoring any weaknesses. Balance is not based on Player vs. Player encounters in Dungeons and Dragons, it is based exclusively on the effect and spotlight time of a character in a party going into a level appropriate encounter. If you want to balance characters for Player vs. Player encounters be prepared to house rule all the classes heavily.
trapspringer 07-09-07, 08:56 PM	"Balance is not based on Player vs. Player encounters in Dungeons and Dragons, it is based on the exclusivity of an effect and spotlight time for a character in a party." That's a really good explanation of balance in D&D.
esteigs 07-23-07, 04:07 PM	build a PC with uber init. and give him a mirror of opposition. :P
mcnoo 07-23-07, 07:02 PM	When will the world learn... In a one off fight, a prepared spellcaster will always tear apart a fighter. Why is this? A spellcaster and fighter are balanced for a whole day's adventuring. The spellcaster can cast enough things throughout the entire day that make him as useful as the fighter doing the same thing in each fight. Now, in a one off duel, with time to prepare, the spellcaster can bunch up and entire day's worth of power into that one fight. The combat character has no limit to how many times a day he can swing his sword. This is his advantage over the spellcaster who has to ration their usefulness over an entire day's adventuring. People complain that the spellcaster has too much power in a duel. If, after given time to prepare all the right spells and power up, the fighter can beat the spellcaster, then the game is unbalanced. The spellcaster SHOULD be more powerful, but only in short bursts. If while powered up, he's an even match for the fighter, (aka "balanced" as people insist they should be) there would be no point to the spellcaster as he would spend all day being inadequate, except for short periods when he would be as good as the rest, before going right back to inadequacy.