Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 02-24-04, 08:53 PM	First off we're having ALOT of fun in his campaign. He's a fair and just DM, however, we die too often. Luckily we're in a very friendly town and any rez that needs to be done while doing a quest for the church, one of our members is apart of, will only need to pay 450gp and everyone will be Geased (alt version, quest must be completed within a year and a day or bad things start happening). Here are the deaths so far: 1. A construct of a snake with some nasty poison does 2d6/2d6 Con, both fort saves and the heal check a minute later failed - killing the fighter. 2. An wailing undead confuses the party and the rogue kills the cleric 3. A troll kills the rogue/cleric after a failed tumble check. 4. The same troll knocks the barbarian unconcious after several rounds of combat (the troll had 3 hp left when he did this). We kill the troll, but can't get to the barbarian before his rage ends (he moved too far away and my 20-foot move sucks in x2 squares). 4. An Ogre Barbarian surprises us during the night and kills the monk in one crit hit (62 points of damage). 5. A werewolf attacks the party, hitting several (everyone fails their Knowledge check to know about the disease). Several weeks later during the first full moon, the rogue turns to a werewolf while on watch by himself. He coup'de graces the mage in his sleep, but we track him down after he turned back to human form so the rogue is ok. This is where we are now. We are all between 3rd and 5th (the mage was 6th before he died). We're at a point where, after traveling 15 days to this dwarven stronghold, that we have 2 party members to raise. However, the dwarven clerics won't raise the half-orc monk (the guy who plays this will make a new character, he wasn't happy with is monk anyway), and they will charge full price for the human mage. Additionally the barbarian refuses to use his share to help raise the mage (they haven't been friendly to each other). All the deaths so far seemed reasonable...just bad die rolls. I believe, for our level, we are below the expected wealth because of all the deaths. Especially now at the dwarven stronghold. Any suggestions? Do we, as a group, goto the DM and ask him to lighten the encounters? All of the enounters have been appropriate for our group (CR 6 or less, maybe one CR 7 so far). Here's the party: Fighter - 5th (died once, 4 geases) Mage - 6th (just died, so is now 5th, 4 geases) Cleric - 4th (died once, 3 gease) Rogue - 5th (never died, 4 geases) Barbarian - 3rd (missed a couple of weeks, died once, 1 gease) Monk - 5th (just died, so is now 4th, 3 geases) How do we slow down the deaths? I don't believe we are failing tactually during combat (except for the barbarian death when he ran too far away from the party).
Orcish Fury 02-24-04, 09:44 PM	Don't rely on the cleric for in battle healing; make sure everyone has a potion of Cure Light or Moderate Wounds on hand at all times. Post double watches at night. Stay away from trolls altogether.
Bacon and Eggs 02-24-04, 09:56 PM	It sounds as if the party needs to learn to flee the battle scene every once in a while. I know that's how I keep my character alive. But when you retreat together, that's teamwork.
pres_man 02-24-04, 10:40 PM	When characters die, don't bother raising them. Loot their bodies, give them a proper burial. And go to town and start selling.
Harmor 02-25-04, 12:40 AM	Post double watches at night. Stay away from trolls altogether. We do...it was just when the rogue turned into a werewolf, he was the only one on watch during his shift (we had only 5 party members at that time). I think I'm going to just sleep in my full plate at night and just be fatigued the next day... It sounds as if the party needs to learn to flee the battle scene every once in a while. I know that's how I keep my character alive. But when you retreat together, that's teamwork. Good point. Since the monk died we actually tried diplomacy. One encounter we found a large snow tiger and two smaller ones eating a carcass. The cleric, before the mage was about to fireball them, insisted that we just came upon a mother snow tiger and her cubs. The larger snow tiger was growling, but did not attack us. So the mage cast sleep on them and we traveled pass them. The cleric even had to stop the barbarian from trying to kill the mother for hide and keep the baby cubs for pets. The other encounter after the monk died we came upon another Ogre moving in the opposite direction on the road we're traveling on. Again we tried diplomacy. We found out that the Ogre was traveling the road looking for travelers, like ourselves, to steal food from; apparently he and his family were short of food for the winter because the winter had been unusually harsh. We gave him some meat from some animals that we killed several days ago (actually it was about to be spoiled, but we didn't want to carry it any more since the cleric couldn't keep it preserved because he now was keeping two of our party members' corpses preserved). Once we gave him the food he moved off the pass and let us though. We got full XP for those encounters too. Since the monk died we haven't tried to run away yet, but I will definiately call a retreat if I think we're about to have another player death. When characters die, don't bother raising them. Loot their bodies, give them a proper burial. And go to town and start selling. Sorry, can't do that...not within my alignment. Also I think that's metagaming if we kept selling their equipment only to have another character come in with their level in equipment. That would encourage to make sure other players' characters died, while keeping their character alive.
pres_man 02-25-04, 04:34 AM	Originally posted by Harmor Sorry, can't do that...not within my alignment. Also I think that's metagaming if we kept selling their equipment only to have another character come in with their level in equipment. That would encourage to make sure other players' characters died, while keeping their character alive. Your alignment doesn't allow souls to be sent to their eternal destination? Your alignment only allows individuals to die of old age? For a hero there is no greater death than to fall fighting the good fight; not to die old and forgotten. Unless you are playing evil characters then you shouldn't have problems with people causing the death of other characters. Even if you think looting the bodies is too much, it's still worth it to just bury them with their gear so as not to waste the money on the resurrections.
Lord Arkhaven 02-25-04, 11:49 AM	Right, first of all a cleric who heals in combat will save a party's life and is a true hero. Clerics heal better than they do damage on average so when combat gets tough that's what they should be doing. If the cleric heals while the fighter attacks more damage will be done and the monsters will die quicker than the players will. This however requires teamwork which many D&D player cannot understand. Lots of people play clerics but don't want to heal because it doesn't validate them. They feel they are not making a contribution in combat. When the fighter deals 100 points of damage to a monster we all yell "COOL!" When the cleric heals a 100 points of damage we should say the same thing because then they might do it a lot more. Our party's new best friend is the Revivify spell (from Miniature's Handbook.) It is a 5th level Cleric spell that allows you to save a character who has been dead for one round or less. If a cleric can cast this spell on a fallen friend within one round of their death they are brought to -1 HP and basically did not die. This is huge. We save 24,000gp. in diamonds because Revivify only requires 1,000gp. in diamonds instead of a True Resurrection. This spell has saved a few friends and has become so helpful that the team wizard has even used a Limited Wish spell to cast it. As soon as a cleric can cast Fortunate Fate (Magic of Faerun) they should do so on characters who tend to go down. This is also one of the best spells in the game.
spasheridan 02-25-04, 01:59 PM	I have to say that it seems like your game is a bit on the lethal side. In a campaign like that I wouldn't bother raising so much. Epsecially low level characters. I think that parties should decide when they start how raising and healing should be paid for. Maybe treasure is split 1 share for communal costs, 1 share each character. But raising from the dead is a hefty cost these days so low level characters wont really have the wealth to do it, and if they do they pauper themselves to the point where it hurts more than it helps. If a single PC dies the most or needs special heals the most then the party share starts becoming their personal healing share.. not very fair at all. But, in your case, since you don't have that plan set up, then each PC has to be responsible for their own raising costs. If the dead PC doesn't have enough money or equipment to sell to cover the price than that PC should just die. Bury em!
Krelios 02-25-04, 02:07 PM	We do...it was just when the rogue turned into a werewolf, he was the only one on watch during his shift (we had only 5 party members at that time). I think I'm going to just sleep in my full plate at night and just be fatigued the next day...Bad Idea on both of those counts. Do you have no elves in the party? If not, invest in Rings of Sustenance and keep two on all watches. One encounter we found a large snow tiger and two smaller ones eating a carcass. The cleric, before the mage was about to fireball them, insisted that we just came upon a mother snow tiger and her cubs. The larger snow tiger was growling, but did not attack us. So the mage cast sleep on them and we traveled pass them. The cleric even had to stop the barbarian from trying to kill the mother for hide and keep the baby cubs for pets. The other encounter after the monk died we came upon another Ogre moving in the opposite direction on the road we're traveling on. Again we tried diplomacy. We found out that the Ogre was traveling the road looking for travelers, like ourselves, to steal food from; apparently he and his family were short of food for the winter because the winter had been unusually harsh. We gave him some meat from some animals that we killed several days ago (actually it was about to be spoiled, but we didn't want to carry it any more since the cleric couldn't keep it preserved because he now was keeping two of our party members' corpses preserved). Once we gave him the food he moved off the pass and let us though. We got full XP for those encounters too. Since the monk died we haven't tried to run away yet, but I will definiately call a retreat if I think we're about to have another player death. Sounds like your DM isn't pulling any punches until your party learns that not everything described to them is there for the killing...
Remnant 02-25-04, 03:01 PM	Sounds like a fun game. Have these deaths been the result of simply being out matched, or has your group simply been particularly unlucky with the dice? I agree with what was said above about diplomacy. Alot of players seem to start out with "video game" logic- anything encountered that does not immediately greet you as a friend is there to be butchered for fun and profit. Just put the +2 orc axe down- combat is always rougher on the PCs because of the law of averages- since the PCs are in every combat, death becomes more probable. Since your DM seems unforgiving, you are at the mercy of probability. Thus, you should probably draw steel only as a last resort.
Conaill 02-25-04, 06:43 PM	Note to your DM: for a larger party of PC's, don't just up the CR of the critters they encounter, but increase the number of critters. So if you might send two CR 2 bugbears against a party of 4 lvl 4 PC's, for a party of 6 you're better off pitting them against three bugbears, rather than two CR 3 ogres. Otherwise a single bad roll can very well result in a PC death. A larger number of opponents (rather than stronger opponents) spreads out the damage more, so expending "20% of party resources" doesn't translate into "killing 1 out of 5 PC's".
Remnant 02-25-04, 07:01 PM	Indeed- to take it to an extreme- what is more dangerous- a great wyrm red dragon- CR 25, or 25 gnolls- CR 1.
Conaill 02-25-04, 07:55 PM	Originally posted by Remnant Indeed- to take it to an extreme- what is more dangerous- a great wyrm red dragon- CR 25, or 25 gnolls- CR 1. The dragon, because 25 gnolls form an encounter level of around 10 - duh! Remember, you don't just *add* CR's. A better exanple might be to compare a single Troll - CR 5, with four gnolls - CR 1. They both present an encounter level of 5 (doubling the number of critters makes the EL go up by 2, so 1 gnoll is EL 1, 2 gnolls is EL 3, 4 gnolls is EL 5). However, the Troll encounter is more likely to lead to a PC casualty, whereas in the Gnoll encounter the damage will be more spread out.
Harmor 02-25-04, 09:22 PM	Sounds like a fun game. Have these deaths been the result of simply being out matched, or has your group simply been particularly unlucky with the dice? It is a fun game. All the deaths except the monk death were the result of poor dice. I think the DM and the monk talked earlier and the monk wanted his character killed before we got to the dwarven stronghold - just so he could make a new character when we arrive.
Madmartigan 02-25-04, 10:12 PM	Needless to say, Harmor, your previous posts are all starting to come together and make sense ;). I can give you advice on hindsight on how to have helped handle those previous situations, although many of them do seem to be tough luck with certain dice rolls (albeit, that snake with 2d6 con damage seems to be very lethal - any reason behind that?). One thing I'd like to point out, just because the CR is appropriate for your level, doesn't mean the Encounter Level is. For example, the fact that your friend turned into a Werewolf on his own watch while everyone else was asleep is either bad luck or an oddity. That in its own property would make the Encounter Level of that event much more difficult than the CR because of the circumstances involved. If you think your party's wealth is lower than normal, and you have a break from the normal routine of adventuring, I'd suggest you attempt to go treasure hunting. Also, I'd recommend with so many deaths perhaps having your characters write up some wills, just in case :D . -Mad.
Harmor 02-25-04, 10:47 PM	(albeit, that snake with 2d6 con damage seems to be very lethal - any reason behind that?). We were raiding an evil necromancer's tower. We found his "treasure trove". Unfortunately it was protected by several spells and a construct that delt 2d6/2d6 con (CR6). The DC was only 14, but I (a fighter with +9 to fort) failed both times (rolled a 3 and a 4...the cleric rolled a 1 on his heal check). All bad rolls there, but the treasure proved more than enough to rez me. One thing I'd like to point out, just because the CR is appropriate for your level, doesn't mean the Encounter Level is. I'll bring this up with our DM. Maybe he should put modifiers to the encounters based on circumstant. Actually I think I remember some table giving a suggestion or something in the XP section. For example, the fact that your friend turned into a Werewolf on his own watch while everyone else was asleep is either bad luck or an oddity. Bad luck. We all failed our appropriate knowledge rolls when identifying the werewolf...and thus didn't know about the lycanthropy. Since we were at 5 members, we put the rogue on watch by himself (he has a high spot). We use a FR calendar and marked the days specifically. The DM, has a chart too when the full moon happens and that day and that time he was on 2nd watch by himself...bad luck. Actually we all were laughing out loud at how funny/exciting it was. When the DM rolled that d4 to see who would be coup'de graced we all froze...it was fun. If you think your party's wealth is lower than normal, and you have a break from the normal routine of adventuring, I'd suggest you attempt to go treasure hunting. Can't...we have on average 3 geases to fullfil. To make deaths less leathal, the DM allows us to pay 450gp and get a geas from a friendly church (another reason to pay tithe).