Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 08-12-04, 06:08 PM	I am currently a cleric of Laduguar (LE god) and am LE. I was originally LN and a cleric of Moradin (LG god). How do I give up Laduguar and go back to Moradin? I'm assuming that probably for several levels I won't have any of my abilies/spells until I properly attone. Here is a list of evil deeds I did to become LE and change to Laduguar: We found ourselves in an evil temple of Laduguer. I spotted several invisible guardians near an altar. So as to not provoke them I went to a statue of Laduguer and placed a gem in its hand and gave paise to him (making a successful Knowledge (Religion) DC 20 check). The guardians did not attack and we continued to the city. I convinced myself that fighting these guardians wasn't what we wanted to do since we wanted passage though the strine to the city. While in the evil Underdark city we needed to pay a toll for a ship to Skullport. A lich was the sole oarsman. Rather than money the lich demanded a humanoid heart less than an hour old. I proceeded to the local slave market and purchaced four slaves. I unbound the strongest of the slaves, a elven ranger type from the surface above, and told him that I would free him if he retrieved the hearts from the other three. He did so another of my companions and I traveled on the boat. A good rogue in our party refused to take this form of travel and found other means to get to Skullport. I sold the spare heart to a goblin for a 300gp sapphire gem. I thought it was more important to get to Skullport as the least cost possible than to pay a mage 4,000gp to transport each of us. In Skullport I disguised myself as a death cleric using death shrouds not to draw any undo attention to the Moradin motif I had eteched in my armor. I went around intimiating anyone who took any notice of me and killed a man who saw threw my disguise. I found a gem in his pocket. I thought it was more important that I continue my mission and not be revealed by anyone because there were people who were trying to find me at the time. Running low on healing supplies I let the evil mage in our party convince me (rolled a '1' on a Sense Motive check), that a dwarven paladin in Skullport was killing "innocent" orcs. I proceeded to help kill him in exchange for a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds and a 5000gp diamond that a cleric of Grummish rewarded us with. He was killing 'innocent' orcs. I didn't necessarily want to kill him, but he died when a drow archer attacked him after he fell unconcious. I helped open a portal to the Negative Energy plane and left it open in the middle of Skullport. I then helped my friend the mage obtain a Book of Vile Darkness from an evil outsider. The NE mage in our party convinced me that it was important for me to help him get this item. He was my friend so I agreed. I looted a paralyzed party member's coin purse and several items (there were several gems he had), and left him for dead - we were fighting an evil mage and his cohorts. I then convinced the party to withdraw without our paralyzed companion. I couldn't carry him from danger so I looted him thinking that his items and money could at least help the rest of, well actually me. Soon after that last insident my aligment was shifted from LN to LE and found that my prayers where no longer being answered by Moradin, but Laduguer. I didn't realize I was evil until a good cleric in our party tried to heal me and his spell failed. In our campaign a good cleric can only heal good or neutral aligned people. A neutral cleric can heal anyone. An evil cleric can only heal neutral or evil aligned people. The reason for this is because a good god won't necessarily help someone who is inheriently evil, however there are some rare exceptions. Laduguer put a geas on me to find this dwarven king's warhammer. I happened to visit the Moradin temple right after I turned evil and was givin a quest to find the EXACT same weapon (the cleric there still thought I was a cleric of Moradin eventhough I was LE). Could I return this holy warhammer back to the Moradin church and then denounce my evil god and start the process? How, if its even possible, do go back to Moradin? Ideas? Suggestions? Can I be redeemed? Would Moradin even accept me? (gods might like someone as fickle as me).
KittenWarrior 08-12-04, 07:03 PM	Soon after that last insident my aligment was shifted from LN to LE and found that my prayers where no longer being answered by Moradin, but Laduguer.Well, your list of evil acts is quite impressive, although helping your evil mage friend is debatable. You did fail a sense motive, so possibly this is a case of ignorance rather than evil. Laduguer put a geas on me to find this dwarven king's warhammer. I happened to visit the Moradin temple right after I turned evil and was givin a quest to find the EXACT same weapon (the cleric there still thought I was a cleric of Moradin eventhough I was LE). Could I return this holy warhammer back to the Moradin church and then denounce my evil god and start the process? That depends on the exact wording of the Geas. If you only have to find the hammer, then you're free to do with it as you see fit after you obtain it. If the Geas encompasses more specific instructions, you'll have to suffer the consequences if you want to take it back to the temple of Moradin.How, if its even possible, do go back to Moradin? Ideas? Suggestions? Can I be redeemed? Would Moradin even accept me? (gods might like someone as fickle as me). Wanting to switch back indicates a degree of 'fickleness' as you call it that makes me think you're more apt to a chaotic lifestyle than a lawful one. At any rate, DotF outlines a procedure for switching faiths. It would involve you to voluntarily accept a geas/quest from Moradin's clergy. During the time you occupy yourself with that, you'll not receive spells from Moradin (and likely neither from Laduguer, who won't be pleased to lose you again). Once you have fulfilled this quest, you are atoned and welcomed in the faith. However, since this is your 2nd switch, it's by no means certain Moradin will want you back. Perhaps you'd best look for a non-lawful deity, and you probably stand the best chance with a True Neutral one. going back to Moradin might only be possible after spending a considerable amount of time as a lay follower, during which you should undertake many quests voluntarily. You've really gotten yourself in a pretty pickle, that much is certain. Cheers, KW
Kaminton 08-12-04, 07:26 PM	Well, the "easy" way to repent is to find yourself a higher level cleric of Moradin, confess your crimes, and convince him/her to cast atonement on you twice. The first time, use the Redemption version of the spell. This costs the cleric no xp, but instantly switches your alignment to match his (better make sure it's not a LE cleric...). The second use of atonement should be to Restore Cleric Spell Powers. Since you willfully committed these evil acts and weren't under some form of compulsion, this'll cost your friendly cleric. The standard procedure is for that cleric to send you on some sort of quest (this may or may not require a quest spell cast on you) to prove your sincerity. You don't get any of your spellcasting back until you finish this quest and that cleric casts atonement on you a second time. I agree with KW regarding the geas - if the instructions were to find the warhammer, you're done as soon as you see it. If the instructions were to return the warhammer to a temple of that evil deity, I suggest you start your repentance early by telling someone at that temple about your predicament and ask for a remove curse from the high priest. Unfortunately, if it was the diety himself who cast the spell on you, nothing short of limited wish will break it (unless you find a cleric with a higher caster level than the deity, which is kinda difficult). If you are sincere in your repentance, and are determined to follow the straight and narrow path in the future, I see no reason why any good deity would reject you. As a high level cleric, you are a valuable (and limited) resource.
Harmor 08-12-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by KittenWarrior At any rate, DotF outlines a procedure for switching faiths. It would involve you to voluntarily accept a geas/quest from Moradin's clergy. Thanks for the insite. What is "DotF"?
Kaminton 08-12-04, 07:48 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Thanks for the insite. What is "DotF"? Shorthand for "Defenders of the Faith", the cleric & paladin splatbook. Complete Divine *may* have a similar section, but since I don't have it, I can't tell you :)
Naeron 08-13-04, 05:56 AM	Getting back is not ficklness, the PC's faith never changed they just committed questionable acts that changed their alignment. And there were not that many of them. So you would be free to return the Hammer to a Moradin temple and repent. You are not a Cleric of this other deity unless you willingly choose to become so. Tricking another God with false praise: Not Evil Humans Hearts from Slaves: Evil, you should have bribed someone at the local morgue :) Killing the person who saw through your disguise: Not Evil (its self defence). Taking the gem is irrelevant. Killing the paladin: "Neutral" (you were tricked). Evil done unwillingly does not cause an alignment shift, even for a Paladin. Portal to the Negative Energy Plane: If undead were coming through and harming the innocent then evil otherwise Neutral. Taking a fallen party member's equipment if you really can't recover them: Not Evil. While you certainly could not be LG the majority of these acts falls within the confines of LN.
Mitchell 08-13-04, 07:01 AM	You certainly had this one coming. The others had some ideas for you, but I saw something that I wondered about. You said the evil wizard in the party asked you to help some innocent orcs, and a paladin died as a result of your actions. I'm good with all that, but you mentioned a sense motive check. Now, did you just roll that to see if you could figure something out or to see if you would do it? I generally shy away from any situation requiring a player to roll to see what they will do. I know you did plenty to earn the shift without this, but you should never have control of your character removed from you short of a mind affecting thing like charm person and such.
Derren S. 08-13-04, 07:16 AM	Originally posted by Naeron Tricking another God with false praise: Not Evil Maybe not evil, but extremly chaotic. Also Moradin has every right to be angry at you for worshiping a evil god. Humans Hearts from Slaves: Evil, you should have bribed someone at the local morgue :) Extremly evil I might add. Killing the person who saw through your disguise: Not Evil (its self defence). Taking the gem is irrelevant. Was the person attacking you or was his intention to inform the people who are after you? If not you had no reason to kill him. Evil. Is death shroud a evil spell? If yes another negative point for you. Killing the paladin: "Neutral" (you were tricked). Evil done unwillingly does not cause an alignment shift, even for a Paladin. You willingly killed a paladin? That is evil. It is easy to check if a paladin is fallen or not. You basically carried out an assasination, because you did it for money. Also when paladins walk freely there, why had you go in disguise and kill the man to keep the cover? Portal to the Negative Energy Plane: If undead were coming through and harming the innocent then evil otherwise Neutral. It depends what you do with this extremly evil artifact you retrived. Opening a portal itself isn't evil, especially because the neg energy plain in unaligned. It entirely depends what you do with the artifact. Taking a fallen party member's equipment if you really can't recover them: Not Evil. Evil, because you convinced your party to leave the man behind. Also you stole for selfgain from him. While you certainly could not be LG the majority of these acts falls within the confines of LN. Rather true N. Many of this acts are also chaotic. And don't forget that you are associating with a evil person and repeatedly helped him in evil acts. Does your character know that the wizard is evil or is this player knowledge? Without you wanting to switch deities, Laduguar normally couldn't grand you spells, but I think FR has some history where deities do things like this. The real question is, why would Moradin want you back? You betrayed him many times and violated his dogma. Why would Moradin want such a cleric?
MyrddynsRose 08-15-04, 04:45 PM	Build a new temple for Moradin, then go on a quest to retrieve a holy relic of your DMs choosing to place in the temple. Pay for the temple's upkeep and staff out of your own pocket, while answering to the cleric who becomes the chief priest. Yes, you built it, but you have no control over it. Stop hanging around evil people. Start a crusade against Ladeguer and his nasty little followers.
MyrddynsRose 08-15-04, 04:45 PM	Build a new temple for Moradin, then go on a quest to retrieve a holy relic of your DMs choosing to place in the temple. Pay for the temple's upkeep and staff out of your own pocket, while answering to the cleric who becomes the chief priest. Yes, you built it, but you have no control over it. Stop hanging around evil people. Start a crusade against Ladeguer and his nasty little followers.
MyrddynsRose 08-15-04, 04:45 PM	Build a new temple for Moradin, then go on a quest to retrieve a holy relic of your DMs choosing to place in the temple. Pay for the temple's upkeep and staff out of your own pocket, while answering to the cleric who becomes the chief priest. Yes, you built it, but you have no control over it. Stop hanging around evil people. Start a crusade against Ladeguer and his nasty little followers.
Skrimshaw 08-16-04, 08:12 PM	Hey i remember you and yer party, you posted about that killing the paladin business didnt you? I Seem to recall that your DM was extremely unfair and (if memory serves) was even called a "cheater". You had better just ask him what you should do to "repent " as he will likely cheese if you do something he is not prepaired for. That said, is your character truely repentent? i am not getting that feeling from you. With out knowing the specifics, it seems to me that you are trying to qualify for a pretige class or to use an item or some other reason to go back to Moriden. I am not really getting the impression that you are repentent. If i am wrong, how is it that you can act in the most horricially evil manner and then just, "change yer mind" one day. Does Moridin even want you back?>
Enslaved DM 08-16-04, 10:17 PM	Leaving portals to the negative matrial plane out is not a good act. They are dangerous and easily used for evil purposes. It was entirely appropriate for him to list it as one of his naughty deeds.
Palin the Wizard 08-17-04, 07:04 AM	The Negative Energy plane is not an evil plane--it's neutral. So is the Positive Energy plane. And he didn't kill the paladin. He helped defeat him, yes, but he also mentioned he didn't necessarily want to kill him. A drow archer killed him. Besides, he was tricked into thinking the paladin was killing 'innocent'--ie, good--orcs. Of course, to make it a Good act, he'd have to have protested afterwards. Else, it's a Neutral act--self-preservation (if he protested, they might've killed *him*).
Derren S. 08-17-04, 07:12 AM	Originally posted by Palin the Wizard And he didn't kill the paladin. He helped defeat him, yes, but he also mentioned he didn't necessarily want to kill him. A drow archer killed him. Besides, he was tricked into thinking the paladin was killing 'innocent'--ie, good--orcs. Does this make a difference? The cleric attacked, and batteled a lawful good creature and weakened it so much that it could be killed probably by his employer or one of his agents. The cleric is responsible for the paladins death. And "he was tricked" is no excuse. The cleric had to be more carful and it is very easy to check if a paladin is fallen or not. Also it seems that the cleric knew that his friend as evil, so the cleric was rather stupid than were tricked.
Crossover-Chronicler 08-17-04, 09:49 AM	Originally posted by Palin the Wizard The Negative Energy plane is not an evil plane--it's neutral. So is the Positive Energy plane.What does that have to do with the morality of his actions? The Plane of Fire is also neutral, but that doesn't make the act of leaving a portal to it open in a populated area any less evil.And he didn't kill the paladin. He helped defeat him, yes, but he also mentioned he didn't necessarily want to kill him. A drow archer killed him. Besides, he was tricked into thinking the paladin was killing 'innocent'--ie, good--orcs.The moment the Paladin demonstrated any divinely-granted abilities, the Cleric should have reassessed the situation - after all, one slip-up is enough to cost the Paladin his powers. I think that continuing to participate in the downfall of a paragon of law and good (once you know he remainsp a paragon of law and good) qualifies as an evil act. However, we're not here solely to debate the morality of Harmor's actions; we're here to supply suggestions on how to get him back in to Moradin's good graces, or at least offer some alternative to serving Laduguer. I'm with the folks who suggest moving to a third party, one who's go along with your "fickle" nature more. Perhaps Olidammara (who might not mind as much when you pose as a follower of another deity).
Enslaved DM 08-17-04, 10:28 AM	I would suggest a neutral god. I don't have the dwarven pantheon in my brain at the moment so I can't give you advice more specific than that.
Naeron 08-17-04, 10:40 AM	Originally posted by Derren S. Maybe not evil, but extremly chaotic. Also Moradin has every right to be angry at you for worshiping a evil god.[/B] Not even slightly chaotic, nothing about the lawful alignment says you cannot trick your enemies, only the Paladins code mentions not lying. And worship involves more than mouthing some empty phrases with the inten to trick your way pas some guardians. Entirely within the bounds of a LN alignment. Originally posted by Derren S. Extremly evil I might add.[/B] This one is the clincher, if your PC thought that it was acceptable behaviour to murder innocents to save money then they should be evil in the first place. Originally posted by Derren S. Was the person attacking you or was his intention to inform the people who are after you? If not you had no reason to kill him. Evil. Is death shroud a evil spell? If yes another negative point for you.[/B] It was stated that the cleric though it was important not to be revealed, that presumes an indication that the person that penetrated the disguise was going to reveal them. Originally posted by Derren S. You willingly killed a paladin? That is evil. It is easy to check if a paladin is fallen or not. You basically carried out an assasination, because you did it for money. Also when paladins walk freely there, why had you go in disguise and kill the man to keep the cover.[/B] No, the cleric was deceived into believing that someone was killing innocents and had to be stopped. Also and perhaps most importantly the cleric didn't want to kill him. just stop him, and the Paladin was killed by someone else after falling unconcious (which implies battle rather than assasination). Originally posted by Derren S. Evil, because you convinced your party to leave the man behind. Also you stole for selfgain from him.[/B] Neutral. A Neutral being is under no compulsion to risk their own safety for the lives of others, that is what separates them from good. They would not place an innocent in a position where harm comes to them (that woudl be evil) but if they get into trouble of their own free will then a Neutral person is not bound to risk themselves to save them (read the PHB). If you can't carry someone out and you are losing the fight then a Neutral should try and persuade the party to leave, by a neutral viewpoint there is no point more people getting hurt. As the person was being left behind looting equipment is denying it to your enemies which is permissable for a Good aligned person (i.e. that the items not be used to serve an evil cause). And Neutrals can steal for self-gain in any case as long as it is not harming the innocent (which this wasn't as any items would have passed into enemy hands). Originally posted by Derren S. Rather true N. Many of this acts are also chaotic. And don't forget that you are associating with a evil person and repeatedly helped him in evil acts. Does your character know that the wizard is evil or is this player knowledge? Without you wanting to switch deities, Laduguar normally couldn't grand you spells, but I think FR has some history where deities do things like this. The real question is, why would Moradin want you back? You betrayed him many times and violated his dogma. Why would Moradin want such a cleric? [/B] Neutrals can associate with Evil beings as long as they don't commit evil acts. He has only betrayed the Dogma once (murder of the slaves), he has committed one other evil act (cant comment on the artifact as I don't have enough info) but that was done because he was deceived and he didnt want to kill. There should be nothing stopping the cleric from wanting to go back to Moradin as he has never chosen to forsake Moradin's ethos. Alignment wise he should still be LN but heading towards LE. And this sort of situation is what the Atonement spell is for.
Derren S. 08-17-04, 11:05 AM	Originally posted by Naeron Not even slightly chaotic, nothing about the lawful alignment says you cannot trick your enemies, only the Paladins code mentions not lying. And worship involves more than mouthing some empty phrases with the inten to trick your way pas some guardians. Entirely within the bounds of a LN alignment. Maybe, but definately not something a Moradin would tolerate. Not only did the cleric made a short praise to an evil god, he even sacrificed a valuable gem to him. Moradin as lawful deity has every right to cast the cleric out. It was stated that the cleric though it was important not to be revealed, that presumes an indication that the person that penetrated the disguise was going to reveal them. What the cleric thought is of no relevance. If the stranger was a threat then it was self defense, but the cleric apparently had no evidence that the stranger would reveal them or that staying hidden is even neccessary. So he killed an innocent whos only fault was beeing in the false place in the false time. No, the cleric was deceived into believing that someone was killing innocents and had to be stopped. Also and perhaps most importantly the cleric didn't want to kill him. just stop him, and the Paladin was killed by someone else after falling unconcious (which implies battle rather than assasination). If that was an assasination or murder in not important. The facts are that a evil person told the cleric that a paladin has fallen and kills innocent. Without checking if this is true the cleric attacks a holy soldier and wounds him so great that others, maybe even agents of the one who told the cleric about the paladin in the first place, could finish the paladin off. So the cleric had a big part in the murder of a paladin. Maybe the cleric didn't do evil, but he was very stupid and extremly gullible. Neutral. A Neutral being is under no compulsion to risk their own safety for the lives of others, that is what separates them from good. They would not place an innocent in a position where harm comes to them (that woudl be evil) but if they get into trouble of their own free will then a Neutral person is not bound to risk themselves to save them (read the PHB). If you can't carry someone out and you are losing the fight then a Neutral should try and persuade the party to leave, by a neutral viewpoint there is no point more people getting hurt. As the person was being left behind looting equipment is denying it to your enemies which is permissable for a Good aligned person (i.e. that the items not be used to serve an evil cause). And Neutrals can steal for self-gain in any case as long as it is not harming the innocent (which this wasn't as any items would have passed into enemy hands). So leaving a comerade who has accompanied and helped you in your quest paralyzed at the mercy of your enemies after you have looted him of any equpment which could have saved him is not evil? But certainly it is chaotic. When the cleric had enough time to take all the equipment of the paralyzed person, he also could have dragged him away into safety. There should be nothing stopping the cleric from wanting to go back to Moradin as he has never chosen to forsake Moradin's ethos. Alignment wise he should still be LN but heading towards LE. And this sort of situation is what the Atonement spell is for. Maybe the cleric didn't forsake Moradin, but Moradin has forsaken the cleric. While some acts weren't evil, all of them are against the teaching of Moradin and the cleric has shown that you can't trust him. Does Moradin really want such a person to represent his faith to the common folk? Certainly not, so Moradin stopped giving him spells.
Harmor 08-17-04, 04:55 PM	Can we get back on topic. I was hesitant to put my evil acts in this post because I was sure everyone would debate them. My DM ruled that I'm LE and an evil diety is answering my prayers and giving me spells. I don't want this. I don't want to be evil. I want to repent and at least go back to LN and in the process get spells from another diety. Abit it would be nice to go back to Moradin, but I would be willing to goto a neutral god instead. Any more ideas on what exactly I can do to atone? How long do you think I will be without my clerical abilities? Should I assume that my evil diety will send his minions after me to punish me? Should I lash out at my evil diety's minions to show whoever is my new god that I'm serious about changing my ways?
jnrhayz 08-17-04, 05:54 PM	My suggestion would be to: 1. No longer pray for spells as you know they are be given by an evil diety. 2. Continue to pray to Moradin. 3. Do selfless acts and do not do any evil acts(even if questionable in nature - basically act like a paladin for a while) 4. Return the Hammer to Moradin 5. When you return the Hammer: a. Refuse any reward b. Confess all sins to the high priest c. Ask for public punishment d. ask for atonement 6. (Ask for a DM ruling here) Do not level in cleric until you are back within the good graces of Moradin, Otherwise you are leveling as an evil cleric making it that much more difficult to return to Moradin. On the other hand, your redevotion to Moradin may explain leveling in cleric. Hopefully this will show your DM the extent you are willing to go to be returned to Moradin's favor. Of course there is still a quest to go through with the atonement and this is a LOT of roleplaying, but if it is truly what you want to do then I think any DM would allow it after the work you have put into it. Good Luck!
Kaminton 08-17-04, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Can we get back on topic. I was hesitant to put my evil acts in this post because I was sure everyone would debate them. My DM ruled that I'm LE and an evil diety is answering my prayers and giving me spells. I don't want this. I don't want to be evil. I want to repent and at least go back to LN and in the process get spells from another diety. Abit it would be nice to go back to Moradin, but I would be willing to goto a neutral god instead. Any more ideas on what exactly I can do to atone? I've already talked about the "standard" route to redemption - the atonement spell. Deals with both alignment and spellcasting. But in the interim, pray to Moradin and not to the evil deity, and don't cast any spells the evil deity grants you. Not wanting to be evil is a good first step :) How long do you think I will be without my clerical abilities? Until a higher level cleric of Moradin casts atonement on you to restore your cleric powers. How long that will take is up to the DM (especially if the atonement quest is nasty and long). Should I assume that my evil diety will send his minions after me to punish me? Safe bet :) Should I lash out at my evil diety's minions to show whoever is my new god that I'm serious about changing my ways? That depends on whether lashing out would be following Moradin's dogma and doctrine, doesn't it? This part tends to be DM-specific. And it's not a "new" god... unless you don't want to go back to Moradin.
Palin the Wizard 08-18-04, 06:28 AM	Originally posted by Crossover-Chronicler What does that have to do with the morality of his actions? The Plane of Fire is also neutral, but that doesn't make the act of leaving a portal to it open in a populated area any less evil.A portal to the plane of Fire is nothing but that: A portal. It's not evil to create a portal to that plane unless it's with the intent of doing harm. Neither is it evil to open a portal to the Negative Energy plane, unless it is with the intent of doing harm. It would be evil to fight to keep it open if you knew what the Negative Energy plane is made of and what could be done with it, but if it was just to keep the portal open, it was neutral.
lantzer 08-18-04, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by Harmor I am currently a cleric of Laduguar (LE god) and am LE. I was originally LN and a cleric of Moradin (LG god). How do I give up Laduguar and go back to Moradin? Hmm, Laduguar is the Trove Lord, right? The dwarven Miser-god? A member of the Mordinsammen (Sp), worthy of respect, even if he is considered the 'bad boy' of the pantheon. Of course, if it was up to Moradin, He'd have been dumped out a long time ago. It's the female dieties who've kept him in. Here is a list of evil deeds I did to become LE and change to Laduguar: ...So as to not provoke them I went to a statue of Laduguer and placed a gem in its hand and gave praise to him. The results of this action depend on the _form_ that the praise took. If it was an expression of devotion to Laduguar personally, this would cheese off Moradin. If it was a prayer of respect to Laduguar as one of Moradin's children, it wouldn't cheese off Moradin. While in the evil Underdark city we needed to pay a toll for a ship to Skullport. A lich was the sole oarsman. Rather than money the lich demanded a humanoid heart less than an hour old. I proceeded to the local slave market and purchaced four slaves. I unbound the strongest of the slaves, a elven ranger type from the surface above, and told him that I would free him if he retrieved the hearts from the other three. He did so another of my companions and I traveled on the boat. A good rogue in our party refused to take this form of travel and found other means to get to Skullport. I sold the spare heart to a goblin for a 300gp sapphire gem. I thought it was more important to get to Skullport as the least cost possible than to pay a mage 4,000gp to transport each of us. Sorry, what? A _lich_ as an oarsmen? A fresh heart as toll? Conspiring in slavery and murder? to save a little cash? Sorry, you are totally screwed where Moradin is concerned. But you are _just_ the type Laduguar likes. In Skullport I disguised myself as a death cleric using death shrouds not to draw any undo attention to the Moradin motif I had eteched in my armor. I went around intimiating anyone who took any notice of me and killed a man who saw threw my disguise. I found a gem in his pocket. Um, so you murdered some guy because you couldn't be bothered to change your clothes to avoid notice? Then robbed his cooling corpse? It's not looking good. Running low on healing supplies I let the evil mage in our party convince me (rolled a '1' on a Sense Motive check), that a dwarven paladin in Skullport was killing "innocent" orcs. I proceeded to help kill him in exchange for a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds and a 5000gp diamond that a cleric of Grummish rewarded us with. He was killing 'innocent' orcs. I didn't necessarily want to kill him, but he died when a drow archer attacked him after he fell unconcious. Did you try _talking_ to the paly? You accepted a reward from a cleric of _Grummsh_ after assisting drow and orcs in an attack upon a paladin? Not even Laduguar would support such dealings with the enemies of all dwarves. The dwarven pantheon tends to close ranks against outsiders. The Trove Lord may be evil, but he ain't stupid. I helped open a portal to the Negative Energy plane and left it open in the middle of Skullport. I then helped my friend the mage obtain a Book of Vile Darkness from an evil outsider. The NE mage in our party convinced me that it was important for me to help him get this item. He was my friend so I agreed. As a freind, you might want to refuse. Those books (both good and evil) are bloody dangerous. And both celestials and demons are bad news (from a neutral point of view), because they are all total fanatics, divorced from reality. You want this to happen to your freind? I looted a paralyzed party member's coin purse and several items (there were several gems he had), and left him for dead - we were fighting an evil mage and his cohorts. I then convinced the party to withdraw without our paralyzed companion. I couldn't carry him from danger so I looted him thinking that his items and money could at least help the rest of, well actually me. I withdraw my earlier comment. You don't have any freinds. Just tools. Laduguar wouldn't mind this too much... Soon after that last insident my aligment was shifted from LN to LE and found that my prayers where no longer being answered by Moradin, but Laduguer. Laduguer was quick on the uptake on this one. Some GMs would have had prayers directed to Moradin simply fail. If you wanted to be a cleric, you'd have to take the initiative to find a new god or repent. I can see your GM's logic though - Laduguer might be quick to snatch up an ex-worshipper of Moradin's. I didn't realize I was evil until a good cleric in our party tried to heal me and his spell failed. In our campaign a good cleric can only heal good or neutral aligned people. A neutral cleric can heal anyone. An evil cleric can only heal neutral or evil aligned people. The reason for this is because a good god won't necessarily help someone who is inheriently evil, however there are some rare exceptions. I don't see why the alignment shift was such a big suprise. You'd been acting like a greedy, ruthless, cheap, self-centered, SOB for a while. Perfect Laduguer material. I take it that you could never heal your freind the mage. After all, it's not _your_ alignment that's important, is it? It's your God's. Laduguer put a geas on me to find this dwarven king's warhammer. I happened to visit the Moradin temple right after I turned evil and was givin a quest to find the EXACT same weapon (the cleric there still thought I was a cleric of Moradin eventhough I was LE). Could I return this holy warhammer back to the Moradin church and then denounce my evil god and start the process? Depends on whether you as a player are serious about playing a character who is devoted to Moradin. Your character hasn't been acting much like one. Moradin will take some convincing - and it's a possibility that your character will never get cleric abilities back, even if he rededicates himself to Moradin. Returning the hammer to Moradin will indicate a willingness to repent, but the actual test will be your character's long term behavior. Why? Switching gods once due to behavior can be lawful. Switching back and forth is more chaotic, and is thus unacceptable to _both_ gods. Trying to get back in Moradin's good graces while still behaving neutral or evil is merely insincere. Probably the best way for your character to get back in Moradin's good graces is to 'turn his life around' and devote himself to acting like a LG person. It's harder to impress somebody, even a god, when you've betrayed his trust already. This may cause some problems with your party, because you _know_ your mage freind is unacceptable from Moradin's point of view. If you go this route, you've got a nifty story ahead of you, but it would probably mean your next few levels will be in fighter.
Crossover-Chronicler 08-18-04, 10:40 AM	Originally posted by Palin the Wizard A portal to the plane of Fire is nothing but that: A portal. It's not evil to create a portal to that plane unless it's with the intent of doing harm. Neither is it evil to open a portal to the Negative Energy plane, unless it is with the intent of doing harm. You're ignoring the second half: leaving it open in a populated area. It is evil to disregard the safety of others to that degree. Depending on the portal type, the energies of that plane can bleed into the prime, setting fires (plane of fire) or sucking the life from the area. Creatures that wander through the still-open portal (undead in one example, fire elementals in another) pose a significant threat to the locals even if the creatures themselves are too dumb to form moral intent. Creating condition of that kind of destructive potential, then just leaving it there with no safeguards. Note that Harmor hasn't mentioned ever closing the portal, nor placing any safeguards at the portal while he and the mage were questing for the book. Depending on how long this quest took, that was anywhere between hours and weeks that the portal gave the denizens of that plane access to the people of Skullport. This shows a blatant disregard for the safety of others. Howeverm this conversation is no longer topical. Coming back from the Dark Side: In any case, step one is to stop working for Laduguer immediately. If necessary, find a Cleric, Mage, or even a Bard to remove the geas (as I recall, Break Enchantment can accomplish this). Then make sure that Laduguer doesn't get the hammer. As far as turning good again, atonement has already been mentioned. That's probably your best option if you can find a cleric of Moradin powerful enough to redeem you. Other than that, your best option is to behave ina Lawful Good fashion and perfect servant of Moradin in every possible way, and let your alignment slide back toward Good the same way it slid toward Evil, though that would stil probably require an atonement before Moradin granted you spells again. Being hit with Sanctify the Wicked migt have an effect similar to atonement if you have a year to waste. However, there is also another option, presented in Book of Exalted Deeds, which is somewhat more difficult and required the DM to want you to be either redeemed or dead: There is a creature in the BoED called an aleax. When a favored servant of a deity transgresses against that deity, sometimes the deity will dispatch an aleax to hunt down the offending party. The aleax has all the gear and abilities of the transgressor, and a few more besides. If the Aleax "kills" you, then you are delivered to your deity for judgment and (possibly) a last chance to repent. If you defeat the aleax, then it's as if your crimes against Moradin never happened and you are returned to good standing with your deity. And you get a few minor perks from the aleax's divine aura.
Kaminton 08-18-04, 02:58 PM	Originally posted by Crossover-Chronicler Coming back from the Dark Side: In any case, step one is to stop working for Laduguer immediately. If necessary, find a Cleric, Mage, or even a Bard to remove the geas (as I recall, Break Enchantment can accomplish this). Then make sure that Laduguer doesn't get the hammer. [/b] Unfortunately, break enchantment does not end a geas. Remove curse does, but only if the caster level is at least two higher than the caster level of the person who bestowed the curse in the first place. Which means that you're screwed, since it was a flippin' deity that cursed you. Your other options are limited wish, miracle, and wish to remove the geas. As far as turning good again, atonement has already been mentioned. That's probably your best option if you can find a cleric of Moradin powerful enough to redeem you. Other than that, your best option is to behave ina Lawful Good fashion and perfect servant of Moradin in every possible way, and let your alignment slide back toward Good the same way it slid toward Evil, though that would stil probably require an atonement before Moradin granted you spells again. Being hit with Sanctify the Wicked migt have an effect similar to atonement if you have a year to waste. As I've mentioned already, the atonement spell has a redemption/temptation function, which is "a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively" However, there is also another option, presented in Book of Exalted Deeds, which is somewhat more difficult and required the DM to want you to be either redeemed or dead: There is a creature in the BoED called an aleax. When a favored servant of a deity transgresses against that deity, sometimes the deity will dispatch an aleax to hunt down the offending party. The aleax has all the gear and abilities of the transgressor, and a few more besides. If the Aleax "kills" you, then you are delivered to your deity for judgment and (possibly) a last chance to repent. If you defeat the aleax, then it's as if your crimes against Moradin never happened and you are returned to good standing with your deity. And you get a few minor perks from the aleax's divine aura. Oooh, be very very careful with this option... Your allies cannot hurt the aleax in any way (and if they try, they will get their own aleaxes to fight). An aleax is basically a duplicate of you, but with less hp (they're constructs with no Con score), but with a bunch of special abilities on top of that. Watch out for their shapechange ability!
Crossover-Chronicler 08-18-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by Kaminton Oooh, be very very careful with this option... Your allies cannot hurt the aleax in any way (and if they try, they will get their own aleaxes to fight). An aleax is basically a duplicate of you, but with less hp (they're constructs with no Con score), but with a bunch of special abilities on top of that. Watch out for their shapechange ability! Hey, I never said it was a good idea. However, even if the character is defeated, he gets one final chance...
Kaminton 08-18-04, 06:30 PM	Originally posted by Crossover-Chronicler Hey, I never said it was a good idea. However, even if the character is defeated, he gets one final chance... If the deity was mad enough to send the aleax in the first place, I'd hardly call that a "chance". If you were already on the path of repentance and redemption (renouncing the evil deity, renouncing evil, rededicating yourself to Moradin and to good), then Moradin wouldn't be sending that aleax now would he? If you do beat the Aleax (have your party members buff you :)), the +2 to Wis, +1 to Initiative, +2 to AC (stacks with everything else!), and SR equal to your level at the time sure is nice...
bitnine 08-19-04, 02:41 AM	The character, as it stands, cannot atone for a very simple reason: He is not repentant. He still believes in each and every one of the things that he did, as noted in the bold text. He might be sorry about what these things have wrought for him, and concerned about how he has been cast aside by the god he once worshipped. That's definately understandable. But he doesn't consider his actions wrong, and no shows of false revolations will change that.The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds.Does this character really even believe that he has committed misdeeds? From all that I've heard, this is not the case.
Skrimshaw 08-19-04, 04:53 PM	I'm with Bitnine on this one. As i said in my post , i am not getting the feeling that he is repentant (sorry) for his deeds. Therefore as Bitnine says, i do not think he can be redeemed. (currently)
Kaminton 08-19-04, 06:29 PM	Well, that's certainly a problem, isn't it? I got the impression that the PLAYER wants redemption, but the character isn't repentant :) The quickie-insta-change-of-heart way to do it is by having Atonement cast on the cleric, turning him LG. At this point, because of the new alignment, he sees his earlier actions in a different light, and feels remorse - and becomes repentant. Since the player is willing, I don't see why the redemption function of Atonement won't work.
bitnine 08-22-04, 02:12 AM	Originally posted by Kaminton Since the player is willing, I don't see why the redemption function of Atonement won't work. Hm? You did realize that the quote I gave was part of the atonement spell, right?The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds.So, the atonement spell really can't be used by an unrepentant character to sort of fudge and feel his way through redemption in that manner.
Kaminton 08-22-04, 05:33 AM	Under Atonement, p202 of the PHB (emphasis mine): Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally. Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful. Note: Normally changing alignment is up to the player (for PCs) or the DM (for NPCs). This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively. The way I read it is that if the player wants to change alignments, this is a quicky way to do it.