Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 12-03-03, 12:58 AM	Disarm traps, unlock locks, decypher scripts...etc... Now you're thinking, well that's what a rogue is susposed to do since those are class skills, however, I made my rogue/fighter as a FIGHTER. Heck' he's a dwarf in full-plate that goes around with a tower shield. I use the skills from rogue to make me a better fighter. The sneak attack damage is great bonus as a fighter. Additionally I'm playing a Lawful Good alignment. Here's the party: Human Paladin Lvl 3 Human Fighter Lvl 2/Paladin Lvl 1 Half-Orc Cleric Lvl 3 Human Barbarian Lvl 2/Wizard Lvl 1 and me: Dwarf Rogue Lvl 1/Fighter Lvl 2 Everyone in the party is Lawful good except the wizard who is Neutral Good. Now before the campain started the Level 3 Paladin said he was going to be making a Halfing Rogue. But at the last minute he changed it. Now everyone expects me to fill that roll of rogue and I don't want to. First off I'm a dwarven crafter. So I use many of the skills for my craft skills. Second, I don't believe a lock should be unlocked unless you have the key. So I never bothered getting a lockpicking kit or the Open Lock skill. Third, I didn't get Disable Device because I'm not one who sabatoges mechanisms. So I never bothered getting a theive's tool kit or the Disable Device skill. Additionally I was probably never going to take a level of rogue again...just go up as fighter and later become a dwarven defender. So now the group EXPECTS me to take the levels of rogue to 'fill out the party." Is this right? Someone also suggested I take the Track feat and learn up Survival just because I have the extra skill points...how absurd. Humph...
The_EvilDungeon_Master 12-03-03, 01:04 AM	You could.. y'know... TELL them that you're just doing it for things like sneak attack, etc. If they don't listen... Tell them "Get levels in rogue yourself if you want someone to do it!"
ThorvaldHafgrimsson 12-03-03, 01:22 AM	Let them know that if they Really want you to play a rogue, then they asked for it. If they still insist, see if your DM will let you create a straight Rogue. Then make a Rogue who is a true scoundrel. Not vile, perhaps not even evil, just wily and slick and uninterested in anything which won't get him a profit. Remember that Neutral people can still look out for #1, they just have limits to what they will do to get ahead. By Avoiding actual evil you can then evade the Paladin's "Detect Evil" and get away with just about anything. After all if you are not evil, then you must be on his side, otherwise why would you help him so often. If you work at it the players will beg you to go back to a fighter type after a few sessions.
FriendoftheDork 12-03-03, 04:01 AM	don't let them force you to play something you don't want to. And have the paladin try to find the traps - chances are, he will - the bad way. They have no reason to be dissapointed in your character IC unless you've told them IC that you're a thief of sorts.
YaoiGoddess 12-03-03, 04:14 AM	Tell the cleric to pray for Find traps! My cleric never prays for healing spells, he spontaneously casts them when needed.
Harmor 12-03-03, 04:19 AM	Nope...they just noticed that I spot and can often find things more often. As far as they know I'm a LG crafting dwarven fighter in full-plate and a tower shield. Not very "roguish". OOC they will try but in character they really don't have a choice over anyone else per'se. I happen to have Profession (Miner) and a few ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) as well as Knowledge (dungeoneering). So if I happen to find a trap I will dig it out with my masterwork miner's pick!!! Or build something with my Craft (Carpentry) from a door we passed by. I have a -12 to Hide, Move Silently as well as a -24 to my Swim checks. I'm -7 to my Tumble checks too... I don't even own a set of lockpicks or theives tools... Hmm...how much does an NPC thief/dungeoneer/locksmith cost? I think it'll be more fun to have to figure out how to get around traps without the "Disable Device" abstract rolls. PS: I happen to have a high strengh. I carry around a 50 lb. log (that doubles as a porable ram btw), that I'll place on a trap to set it off. What's kewl about dwarves is that you'll move the same whether you are light, medium or heavily encumbered...its only the run speed you have to worry about. That's where your mule comes in.
StormKnight 12-03-03, 03:35 PM	While they shouldn't expect you to go changing your character around to play the role they want, it sounds like you took a first level of rogue for no other reason that big bonus skill points and sneak attack with no intention of being at all rougish, which is kinda cheesy.
Findail 12-03-03, 06:37 PM	It just means that he "fights dirty". He'd probably justify it as Dwarven pragmatism. Of course, any of the others could take ranks in Open Locks, it isn't restricted to Rogues. And any reasonably charismatic PC could eventually get a Rogue cohort at 6th level. Check out the 3.5 Leadership feat: cohorts don't take a share of the party's experience anymore!
Nick Soapdish 12-03-03, 06:47 PM	Somewhere around here, there's a thread about a party that used a log as the party rogue. It only had Open Locks (break down door), Disable Device (by breaking it), Find Traps (by setting them off), and sneak attack (by getting thrown at unsuspecting opponents), but apparently it filled in pretty well. Just so you know there's a precedent for it.
danielinthewolvesden 12-03-03, 07:41 PM	The rogue is one of the 4 core "niches"*. Somebody has to do "search" and "disable device". I actually thought of doing a rogue that is a dwaven fighter-rogue, that has no "sneak" at all, but I knew that I'd have to do "search" and "disable device". A mage can do "knock" for all the doors that can't be smashed, I suppose. If there isn't anyone to do "search" and "dd" your party is crippled, and the casualties are going to mount up. ("Find Traps" doesn't do much in 3rd Ed, so that's no help). I guess you can be stubborn, and insist you're "not a gonna do it", but TEAMwork is very important for a party. Ok, you don't have to do sneaky stuff or such, but who is going to find the darn traps? How would you feel if the cleric, being a half-orc & all- didn't do any healing spells? And told you all "buy potions"? *The other 3 are healer/booster, Tank, and Arcanist- you have one cleric and a couple of paladins who can heal, plenty of tanks, and no real arcanist. You're going to have lots of problems with TWO of the core niches unfilled. My suggestion is ask the DM to let you change your skills around a bit- max out Search and Disable device. Your crafting skills will help, and fit in with those 2 skills a bit. Next level- another level of rogue. You can still fulfill those two key needs- without becoming a stereotypical "sneaky theif" tyep of rogue. Or if you just plain hate the idea (and then why take a level of rogue anyway?) then explain it to the players & DM, and see if someone else wants to swap out.
Platinumwarlock 12-03-03, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden The rogue is one of the 4 core "niches"*. Somebody has to do "search" and "disable device". I actually thought of doing a rogue that is a dwaven fighter-rogue, that has no "sneak" at all, but I knew that I'd have to do "search" and "disable device". A mage can do "knock" for all the doors that can't be smashed, I suppose. If there isn't anyone to do "search" and "dd" your party is crippled, and the casualties are going to mount up. That's not necessarily true. In both of the major campaigns I ran recently, there was not a full time rogue present in either of them. In fact, in the second one, we didn't even have a full time cleric. Allow me to list our party rosters: Campaign 1--Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil Half-orc Cleric of Hextor Halfling Ranger (archery) Human Ranger (twf) Elf Wizard (evoker) Total of two casualties in that campaign--the Human Ranger and the Wizard, both of whom were raised. Campaign 2--Homebrew Planar Half-Dragon (human) Sorcerer Human Wizard/Fire Elemental Savant Aasimar Paladin Half-Elf Druid Dwarven Fighter/Cleric (even level split) Human Rogue-turned-Disciple of Baalzebul (ended up betraying and leaving the party, coming back as an Elf Ranger) Total Casualties--the Half-Elf Druid, who was not raised. Anyway, the point is, as long as you have people who are willing to be inventive and find different ways around obstacles, you don't need any of the stereotypical 'necessary party members' to overcome them. Yes, it may make things easier, but forcing people to play a rogue because the party "needs a rogue" is stupid and makes for poor storytelling. So, my advice, Harmor....tell the other PCs, in game, that if they want someone to pick locks they can learn how themselves. Now, I'm off to plan my Ravenloft campaign...where my players have NO "tank" member. The highest hit die any of them have is d8. And they love it. :D
Thorak 12-03-03, 09:17 PM	Platinumwarlock: Amen. I played one 2nd edition campaign with the exact opposite problem, due to my character chiefly. We had a lock-and-trap based thief, but I was playing a Battlerager, a psychotic axe-wielding dwarf with the patience of a gnat. He also got his hands on one of the higher-end Girdles of Giant Strength, which back then actually granted the strength of a Giant. Gave him something like +15 to attack and damage, for example. Anyhoo, this meant that the thief would often bend down to pick a lock on a door or chest, and my dwarf would groan and kick the door in, usually hard enough to smash it across the room behind it. Same deal with traps, he had so many hitpoints, combined with the dwarven spell and poison save bonuses, he just tripped any traps there were and shrugged them off. The thief in the group started getting annoyed, seeing as he wasn't really needed most of the time. Of course, I really wasn't trying to keep the character alive. I have a bad habit of creating absolutely psychotic characters that are unwittingly powergamed by the addition of a single magical item or two I find ingenious uses for. The result; a character both me and the DM are actively trying to kill, while neither of us cheats to do so. Jumping off a bridge for no reason is cheating. Jumping off a bridge to do solo battle with the fire giant that just Coup de Grace'd my friend who got knocked off, while somehow making the three dex checks at increasing difficulty on the way down to do the funky acrobatics I *had* to do, is just a typical day for one of my psychos.
Addi83 12-03-03, 10:46 PM	I had the same problem when I made a Rogue/Fighter half-elf. I was very combat oriented, and used my skills mostly for tumble, jump, swim and stuff. I also maxed search, disable device and open lock in case we ever had to go dungeoning, but so far we´ve mostly been in a town doing sortof detective work. So whenever we need to gather info, bluff or disguise, they expect me to do it, and when I tell them I have almost no skill in said things, they tell me I'm a lousy rogue, which is fine since I see my character more as a fighter (I use a friggin greatsword). But I still have respectable rogue skills, just not the rogue skills they want me to have.
Frodo Lives 12-03-03, 11:33 PM	Nobody has the right to tell another player how to build their character. If at the start of the campaign you told them that you would build a rogue style rogue then they might have a right to get on your case. If not, too bad. I adhere to the belief that if you are capable of doing something, (ie healing, scouting, social skills) that may not be the most glorious task or make your character look great (ie out of combat skills) you should do it, if it is in the best interests of your party. The cleric does not have to specialize in healing, or even study a healing spell, but it someone in the party needs to be healed and the cleric is the best one to do the job he should do it with no complaints. If the barbarian turns out to be the best scout, then he should scout. If your rogue is the best at opening locks or disableing traps then he should do it. BUT you shouldn't have to change your character around or change your character concept just because the group is lacking in a certain area. I've played in parties with no rogue, and it is a pain in the butt, but it is not impossible. Tell your group that if you are able do to whatever they request you will, but that you aren't going to change your character or your character concept around to accomidate them. How would they like it if you told them to change their characters to suit your tastes? If you can do something you should do it, but not at the expense of what you want your character to be.
Edymnion 12-03-03, 11:55 PM	Have the Cleric cast Find Traps, then send the high charisma Paladin walking right into the trap. He's getting that Charisma bonus to all his saves, he should be able to avoid most of the damage... Have the Barbarian Rage and hack his way through locked doors and chests. Let the Wizard use all his high intelligence and tons of skillpoints to take Decipher Script cross-class (assuming you're in 3.5). But basically, yeah. If they want a utility rogue, let them multiclass. Or, better yet, have one of them take Leadership and get a utility rogue as a cohort.
AlteredEgo 12-03-03, 11:57 PM	Looking through your responses, Harmor, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly WHY you are a Rogue/Fighter, other than for the purely metagame'd reason of skill points and sneak attack?
Hope 12-04-03, 12:25 AM	Originally posted by AlteredEgo Looking through your responses, Harmor, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly WHY you are a Rogue/Fighter, other than for the purely metagame'd reason of skill points and sneak attack? Yeah, I hate it when people take rogue levels just for skill points and sneak attack. It's almost as bad as that time I saw somebody take a level of fighter just for proficiencies, hit points and bonus feats! Of course, the last straw was when another player took a level of wizard just so he could cast spells. I mean, honestly.
Harmor 12-04-03, 01:18 AM	Looking through your responses, Harmor, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly WHY you are a Rogue/Fighter, other than for the purely metagame'd reason of skill points and sneak attack? Sorta. I needed alot of skill points to start off with for my craft/knowledge skills. I had a concept that my dwarf was from a long line of crafter/adventures. Since I have 5 older brothers I wasn't needed as a fighter when I was young. So my first level was rogue. He's also Lawful Good so he didn't take skills like Open Locks and Disarm Traps...there was no need where he was. By being an appentice (learning various Craft skills), my aging father, could pass down his talents. Since I was the youngest I'm also pretty much the most expendable and thus talked about leaving Flinty Hills to adventure like many in my family have in the past. My older brothers all had already taken their proper places in the family heirarchy so there wasn't really any room for me. So while he was young he learned how to mine ( Profession (miner), Knowledge (archtecture & buildings) and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) ) in the Nyrondese royal mines. He even has a 14 intelligence (pretty high). He helped with his craft skills as much as he could, but soon found that he was more needed to man the garrisons. When he was around 55 or so he joined the army and learned how to fight (2 levels of fighter ) and man and maintain the siege equipment ( Profession (Siege Engineer) ). He helped the Nyrondese army with all the scrimishes between Nyrond and Ahlissa on their border during these last 6 years. Viola', and that's where we are now. If you must know.
pjackson 12-04-03, 12:40 PM	In my experience, a barbarian makes a great trap detector/remover. Very good chance of detecting them Will disarm all one shot ones Very safe, so long as you stay far enough behind him Allows you to use your skill points on other skills I am our party's rogue - actually rogue_3/wizard_7/fighter_2 Peter
JusticeZero 12-04-03, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden I guess you can be stubborn, and insist you're "not a gonna do it", but TEAMwork is very important for a party. Ok, you don't have to do sneaky stuff or such, but who is going to find the darn traps?Not his problem. Sure, someone should have it. But the guy clearly isn't a rogue, and I find that one of the things that makes a game cease to be enjoyable for me is to have people telling me how I should build my character repeatedly and incessantly in spite of my having a build worked out already.How would you feel if the cleric, being a half-orc & all- didn't do any healing spells? And told you all "buy potions"?If our group had a cleric of a god that just didn't "do" healing, and made themselves useful in other ways (nuking and fighting etc, as one of their order might) then my only response should be to nod and start looking for a healer, because said priest is not one. I'm reminded of the time that I was in a game and the party kept continuously trying to force my swashbuckler to wear platemail and use a longsword. annoying as heck. 'Gee, I have a clear idea of how my character should function, but five people keep screaming at me to treat it like a video game and be a cookie cutter that flies in the face of alll the background i've given.. and most of the things i've bought up..' That's a lot like creating a dark necromancer character and then being chastised for wasting your time with animating the dead instead of casting abjuration spells.Or if you just plain hate the idea (and then why take a level of rogue anyway?) Rogue doesn't intrinsically mean "sneaky thief guy". Sometimes people legitemately dip into other classes to round out their concepts, because sometimes it just fits better that way than trying to kludge it together in other ways.
PhaedrusXY 12-04-03, 03:32 PM	Tell the Palladin to take some rogue levels. He's the one that was originally going to fill the rogue niche. And there is nothing in the Palladin's code in the PHB that would prevent him from using the abilities he gets from rogue levels.
Findail 12-04-03, 03:38 PM	A Rogue is actually at least four classes in one: Sneaky scout Locksmith/Trap-disarmer Diplomat/negotiator Specialist fighter (flanker/assassin) Even with all the skill points they get, it would be difficult to excel in ALL of those. A rogue could drop one of those roles, or two, or even three, and still be a "proper rogue".
Tonus 12-04-03, 04:19 PM	Originally posted by Harmor He's also Lawful Good so he didn't take skills like Open Locks and Disarm Traps. No need for your alignment to be a barrier if you *WANTED* those skills -- locksmith is an honorable profession, and I am sure the dwarven clans could make use of a medieval demolitionist. However, it sounds like the problem is that your group is using metagaming knowledge about your CLASS and making false assumptions based on that regarding your CHARACTER. The Rogue class has such a broad skill base that you can make many character types from it. Unfortunately, many people think that rogue equals thief -- and carry that assumption into the game even when there is absolutely no basis for it. I once had a character whose pre-life had been a sailor, and had survived a shipwreck before hooking up with the other PCs. Rogue seemed a natural base class for him -- lots of skills for nautical things like prof. sailor, climb (rigging), spot, balance, bluff (tell sea stories), rope use, etc. However, one of the players kept on referring to me as "the thief", even though I had no thieving skills and never exhibited any behavior that would lead anyone to suspect that I did. It was very annoying to me, the player, and my character got rather p.o.'d at the constant slander...
Kyaran 12-04-03, 05:03 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Now before the campain started the Level 3 Paladin said he was going to be making a Halfing Rogue. But at the last minute he changed it. Now everyone expects me to fill that roll of rogue and I don't want to. If anyone should get picked on, it's the player of the paladin. He was going to fill the rogue slot, and then backed out. You should definitely not have to change your character (abilities or concept) for other players. If you started by deciding on a thief-concept because the party 'needed' a rogue, and then fail to fill that role, that's one thing. But you never intended to fill the traditional rogue spot, as is evidenced by you placing your skill ranks in Craft and Knowledge, so they shouldn't expect you to do traditional rogue duties.