Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 07-30-04, 03:05 AM	I never played a campaign past level 10 before. So when I saw the power of a 13th level wizard I have to say I'm amazed. Actually he's a 9th level wizard/5th level War Mage. With the War Mage prestige class he can do 12d6+60 (min: 72; avg: 102; max: 120) with a 2nd level spell!!! Maybe its the War Mage prestige class that gives him +5 per die of damage, but my god this is rediculous. One time I was hit with his Cone of Cold for 74 points of damage when we were level 11!!! I'm sitting here with my weapon doing a paltry 1d8+1d6+7 (min: 9; avg: 15; max: 21) points of damage an attack, assuming I actually hit. I guess the power curve for mages is much steeper past 11th than for fighters. Should I basically expect to be our mage's body guard as we level up?
ImmortalBlueMage 07-30-04, 04:10 AM	It's like I always tell people when they're choosing their Class. If you pick the Wizard, come to grips with the fact that at Level 1 the Fighter will be knocking you down and stealing your lunch money. But if you pick the Fighter, be prepared for the fact that at level 15 the Wizard is going to have you fetching his scrolls and calling him "Sir".
BlaineTog 07-30-04, 04:14 AM	Originally posted by Harmor 3.5 Our mage in our party is too powerfulJoin the club. :D Its the way the trail ration crumbles. Its not a good thing, but fixing it would require either a system wide nerf of the magic system or a nerf of all the spells, and we know how well that would go over.
Will Brandiman 07-30-04, 04:20 AM	Originally posted by Harmor With the War Mage prestige class he can do 12d6+60 (min: 72; avg: 102; max: 120) with a 2nd level spell!!! Maybe its the War Mage prestige class that gives him +5 per die of damage, but my god this is rediculous. I'd ask your DM to check the MHB and take a careful look at the Warmage. Whilst it does give bonus damage for each point of Int Bonus, I'm fairly sure that is per spell, not per damage dice. Perhaps someone who has the MHB to hand could check this and let us know? Also, do levels in Warmage stack with levels of Wizard? I thought they were both core classes and used entirely different spellcasting systems.
Kaminton 07-30-04, 04:20 AM	Originally posted by Harmor I never played a campaign past level 10 before. So when I saw the power of a 13th level wizard I have to say I'm amazed. Actually he's a 9th level wizard/5th level War Mage. Which supplement does the War mage come from? With the War Mage prestige class he can do 12d6+60 (min: 72; avg: 102; max: 120) with a 2nd level spell!!! Maybe its the War Mage prestige class that gives him +5 per die of damage, but my god this is rediculous. One time I was hit with his Cone of Cold for 74 points of damage when we were level 11!!! I'm sitting here with my weapon doing a paltry 1d8+1d6+7 (min: 9; avg: 15; max: 21) points of damage an attack, assuming I actually hit. That's pretty low. What class(es) are you? There should be ways to boost that, or increase your number of attacks, or whatever. What character concept are you going for? I guess the power curve for mages is much steeper past 11th than for fighters. That's putting it mildly. Wizards, sorcerors, druids, and clerics (ie, the full spellcasters) experience exponential growth in power. It gets silly as they get access to higher and higher spell levels. All the other classes receive linear increases in power, so they're left in the dust. Should I basically expect to be our mage's body guard as we level up? Yup. Assuming you're a fighter of some sort, your job is to tank and keep everyone else in the party alive to do their thing. At high levels it really comes down to the melee people keeping the enemy away from the spellcasters while they do their thing. Some thoughts: Fighting rogues or monks will dramatically change the balance, since evasion and improved evasion will dramatically reduce the damage output of your mage. Elemental resistance and SR will cramp his style as well. Multiple encounters a day will also hurt him, since he needs to conserve his spells. I need to see the actual class description, since I've never heard of the War Mage prestige class before, and it's not in Complete Warrior, to say more. It's quite possible that the prestige class is either overpowered or being misinterpreted, because the basic wizard doesn't deal that much damage.
Redding MTG Player 07-30-04, 04:28 AM	it is in the complete arcane which is one of the few i dont have
Harmor 07-30-04, 04:30 AM	I don't know where the War Mage prestige class is from...I'll ask him tomorrow. I believe that he only gets that bonus on a specific school of magic. In his case its Evocation. I just realized that eventually he'll probably just clone me and have like 8 of me's around him...
Will Brandiman 07-30-04, 04:30 AM	Originally posted by Redding MTG Player it is in the complete arcane which is one of the few i dont have That's cos it's not been released yet (has it?). The class is also in the Miniatures Handbook.
PhaedrusXY 07-30-04, 04:31 AM	Originally posted by Redding MTG Player it is in the complete arcane which is one of the few i dont have I am pretty sure that Warmage is from the Mini's Handbook. Complete Arcane isn't even out yet...
Kilamar 07-30-04, 04:34 AM	They got the rules completely wrong. War Mage is a class not a PrC, the levels do not stack with the wizard levels. The Int Bonus is, as already said, per spell not per die. Kilamar
Redding MTG Player 07-30-04, 04:39 AM	ok i have minihandbook and i read it and you are playing it all wrong you only add the int bonus to the spell once not on each die, on magic missile only one missile gets the bous
Will Brandiman 07-30-04, 04:39 AM	I'm going from memory here but I believe the Warmage is a core class which relies on Cha for a casting stat and has a very restricted spell-list. Sort of a cross between a Sorc and a Wiz. They know only a few spells but can cast any of these spontaneously. I'm 99% sure that levels in this class do NOT stack with Wizard levels for spellcasting. I'm also fairly sure that the Warmage Edge (the class ability that gives them extra damage) only applies to each spell cast, not to each die of damage. Either your fellow player is mistaken or he's cheating more than a member of the Bush family in an election year.
Seraph of Babel 07-30-04, 05:45 AM	IIRC, there is a war mage in d20 Dragonlance: Age of Mortals. Not sure if this is the PrC you mentioned. But the one from Miniature's Handbook is a core class, not PrC.
Harmor 07-30-04, 06:40 AM	I actually have the Dragonlance: Age of Mortals book. On page 48 there is the War Mage prestige class. I'm wrong, a 5th level War Mage adds +3 to all damage spells. As part of the prestige class you get two of the following metamatic feats to choose from: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Maximize Spell, and Widen Spell. Maybe what he was doing was Empowering his spells AND getting the extra +3 per die of damage. I apparently did not understand how his damage was calculated. Anyhow its STILL alot.
quaiven 07-30-04, 06:50 AM	Originally posted by Will Brandiman I'm going from memory here but I believe the Warmage is a core class which relies on Cha for a casting stat and has a very restricted spell-list. Sort of a cross between a Sorc and a Wiz. They know only a few spells but can cast any of these spontaneously. I'm 99% sure that levels in this class do NOT stack with Wizard levels for spellcasting. I'm also fairly sure that the Warmage Edge (the class ability that gives them extra damage) only applies to each spell cast, not to each die of damage. Either your fellow player is mistaken or he's cheating more than a member of the Bush family in an election year. Hey that was uncalled for:smirk:
Will Brandiman 07-30-04, 07:25 AM	Originally posted by Harmor I'm wrong, a 5th level War Mage adds +3 to all damage spells. Are you sure it's per damage die though? That seems obscenely powerful.
argorond 07-30-04, 08:12 AM	And for lvl 14 mage 102 average dmg seems very low ^^
Sisyfos 07-30-04, 08:25 AM	Originally posted by Kilamar They got the rules completely wrong. War Mage is a class not a PrC, the levels do not stack with the wizard levels. The Int Bonus is, as already said, per spell not per die. Kilamar ;-) So in the next session that wizard is not very powerful: he will be casting 5th level wizard spells and 3rd level warmage spells. He will have caster level 9 for wizard and 5 for warmage. In addition his spells add int bonus to damage only once per spell. Now thats a nerf that would sent any powergamer to the toilet to cry in sorrow and flush his character sheet down to the pipeline to useless characters' graveyeard. Sisyfos
Harmor 07-30-04, 08:31 AM	Originally posted by Will Brandiman Are you sure it's per damage die though? That seems obscenely powerful. Yep it is. Here's a direct quote. Dragonlance Campaign Setting Companion: Age of Mortals, page 49:"Battle Magic (Ex): At 1st level, the War Mage increases the effectiveness of his combat spells. Any spell cast by the War Mage that causes damage gains a +1 bonus hit point per die of damage. At 3rd level, this bonus increases to +2, and at 5th level, this bonus increases to +3." +3 damage per die not spell.
CzarGarrett 07-30-04, 08:36 AM	That guy has to watch out for anti-magic fields and rogues.
Harmor 07-30-04, 08:39 AM	So that level 2 Scorching Ray (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/spells/Scorching_Ray.html) does: 12d6+36 (min: (12+36)48; avg: (42+36)78; max: (60+36)96). Now lets say he Empowered (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/feats/EMPOWER_SPELL.html) it. 12d6+36 (min: (18+36)54; (63+36)avg: 99; max: (90+36)144) Now lets say he Maximized (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/feats/MAXIMIZE_SPELL.html) it. 12d6+36 (max: (60+36)96 damage)
tarkin 07-30-04, 08:47 AM	The "mage" is not what makes him over-powered, it is the WAR-MAGE PrC he took. Some published books have munchkin rules. Any PrC that grants +2 or more per die without raising the required spell slot is a MUNCHKIN class It would not be allowed in any reasonable game, let alone a WoTC game. Why? Do the basic math. d6, averages to 3.5 1/2 on a save is 1.75 But add in +2 per die, and that averages to 5.5, 1/2 on a save is 2.75 Wizards get an average of 2.5 hit points per level. So basically, if you give the wizard that +2 per die, they can auto kill themselves using any save for 1/2 spell. Empower won't let you do that. Even Maximize usually won't let you do that (at one or two levels, a Maximized Schorching Ray can BARELY get above the average number of hit points the wizard would have without a Con Bonus. That is FAR less than the total destruction your wizard gets.) I am willing to bet that the Dragonlance rules have SPECIFIC conditions about when he is gets that +3/die. It might be that it is a core class, or it might be forbidden to be used on evocation spells, or it might be 1/day. If it does not have this kind of thing, it is a MUNCHKIN class and most DM's would outlaw it. Your Fighter type could do reasonably well against a normal wizard, but the wizard you are playing with is using munchkin rules. To compete against this wizard, I suggest you go to the same book he did, and get a fighter Prestige Class from it.
starfire311 07-30-04, 09:07 AM	Originally posted by tarkin The "mage" is not what makes him over-powered, it is the WAR-MAGE PrC he took. Some published books have munchkin rules. Any PrC that grants +2 or more per die without raising the required spell slot is a MUNCHKIN class It would not be allowed in any reasonable game, let alone a WoTC game. Why? Do the basic math. d6, averages to 3.5 1/2 on a save is 1.75 But add in +2 per die, and that averages to 5.5, 1/2 on a save is 2.75 Wizards get an average of 2.5 hit points per level. So basically, if you give the wizard that +2 per die, they can auto kill themselves using any save for 1/2 spell. Empower won't let you do that. Even Maximize usually won't let you do that (at one or two levels, a Maximized Schorching Ray can BARELY get above the average number of hit points the wizard would have without a Con Bonus. That is FAR less than the total destruction your wizard gets.) I am willing to bet that the Dragonlance rules have SPECIFIC conditions about when he is gets that +3/die. It might be that it is a core class, or it might be forbidden to be used on evocation spells, or it might be 1/day. If it does not have this kind of thing, it is a MUNCHKIN class and most DM's would outlaw it. Your Fighter type could do reasonably well against a normal wizard, but the wizard you are playing with is using munchkin rules. To compete against this wizard, I suggest you go to the same book he did, and get a fighter Prestige Class from it. Actually I hought the PrC seemed balanced... I havent read it for a long time but I remember some kind of drawback that I would not be interested.
starfire311 07-30-04, 09:09 AM	Oh and dealing 100 points a round is really no big deal... there are many classes that can do this.... especially at that level... my 13th level archer has done over 200 points in a round before, and can consistantly deal 100+ points a round if I dont mind wasting my magic arrows.
Will Brandiman 07-30-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by starfire311 Oh and dealing 100 points a round is really no big deal... there are many classes that can do this.... especially at that level... my 13th level archer has done over 200 points in a round before, and can consistantly deal 100+ points a round if I dont mind wasting my magic arrows. I think the point here is that he can do that with low-level spells. It dramatically increases the power of an arcane caster and nobody has yet advised of any drawbacks or limitations to its use. If there is a limit on the number of times per day it can be used or it adds to the level of the spell slot required to cast it then maybe it's not too bad. Otherwise it's completely munchkin'd.
Kilsek of Sheverash 07-30-04, 10:38 AM	Actually, I believe the Warmage, like the Healer and Favored Soul, are new core classes the MHB introduces, not a PrC, right? Anyway, the combination of Wizard and Warmage is pretty awesome. Metamagic, lots of spells known, great offensive casting, etc. But it still has the significant drawback of never attaining the highest level spells bc he's multiclassing (assuming I'm right about it being a core class, apologies if I'm not!). That being said, the Wizard/Warmage will usually have much more potent lower and mid-level spells. So, in that sense, it's a balanced choice bc you miss on high end power in exchange for maximizing low-end and middle magic. That means a tougher roader for the Wizard/Warmage vs. Spell Resistance and slightly easier saves to beat against the W/W too.
Twisted Puppy 07-30-04, 10:45 AM	Originally posted by Harmor With the War Mage prestige class he can do 12d6+60 (min: 72; avg: 102; max: 120) with a 2nd level spell!!! Just curious, how does he get 12 damage dice on a second level spell? I know third level spells are capped at 10 damage dice.
General Dorsey 07-30-04, 11:13 AM	Assuming that this is the class from the Miniatures Handbook, according to the errata: Chapter 1: Characters Warmage: The bonus from the warmage edge special ability applies only to spells that he casts as a warmage, not to those he may have by virtue of levels in another class.
Kilsek of Sheverash 07-30-04, 11:20 AM	Originally posted by General Dorsey Assuming that this is the class from the Miniatures Handbook, according to the errata: Chapter 1: Characters Warmage: The bonus from the warmage edge special ability applies only to spells that he casts as a warmage, not to those he may have by virtue of levels in another class. BAM!! That'll balance him :) Clearly overpowered otherwise.
Kaminton 07-30-04, 11:23 AM	Twisted Puppy: Scorching Ray deals 12d6 damage if you hit the same target with all 3 randed touch attack rolls. I don't have either Miniatures HandBook or the Dragonlance campaign setting, so I'll refrain from commenting further: however, your problem lies with the prestige class, not the wizard class. And my remedies for the DM still apply: rogue/monk levels, ring of evasion, elemental protection spells and items, SR. Also consider a golem or two, that ought to fix'm :)
starfire311 07-30-04, 11:46 AM	the OPs post s about the Warmage PrC from Dragonlance not the Warmage Class from MHB. Originally posted by Will Brandiman I think the point here is that he can do that with low-level spells. It dramatically increases the power of an arcane caster and nobody has yet advised of any drawbacks or limitations to its use. If there is a limit on the number of times per day it can be used or it adds to the level of the spell slot required to cast it then maybe it's not too bad. Otherwise it's completely munchkin'd. Actually with only a second level spell the average damage is 12D6+36 or on average 78 points his problem is with a 4th level spell empowered scorching ray dealing 18d6+54 or on average 117 points that ofcourse requires 3 successful touch attack rolls I really dont think that is a huge problem, if the PrC has sufficient drawbacks. I really dont know if this is the case. It is a big problem if there are no drawbacks to the PrC.
wdarkk 07-30-04, 03:42 PM	The DL people have a lot of trouble making balanced magic stuff. Elemental darts (5d6+50 from a 2nd level spell), Solamnic Auxiliary Mage (+4 to save DC in circumstances the PrC should land you in a LOT), Dalamar's Lightning Lance (almost as much damage as Disintigrate but save for half from a 4th level spell), etc.
Scion of Coldshard 07-30-04, 05:00 PM	Sounds like the main points have already been beaten down pretty well ;) The mini's handbook class is a very strange one, strong in some ways and not really in others. I have no experience with the DL prc though. Anyway though, just wanted to say that whether or not the mage is strong is entirely campaign dependent and up to the dm. All else being equal it mainly comes down to battles per day and number of combatants.. if you have few battles per day (1 or 2) then people with expendible resources will seem artificially better, a couple more and it will be about even, and a couple more to let fighter types look incredibly powerful. Fighter class by itself is not exactly spectacular, but even then around the level you seem to be your damage is pretty low. Why is that? At 13th level dealing an average over 30 shouldnt be difficult. You can do that all day long too. Full round attacks for around 100 points of damage fairly easily ;) So what is your character like exactly? After knocking the mage down a few pegs (as it looks like he wasnt following the rules completely) or simply leaving him alone if he is you can make a few basic changes and really step up your character. Hopefully you arent actually playing a fighter.
ElvenEnigma 07-30-04, 05:55 PM	I agree with what has been said already so I won't repeat that.... However, if this Munchkin Mage is giving you so much trouble just buy a ring of spell turning. I think that would be a fitting end for someone dealing insane damage with a spell that doesn't give a save.:devil: Peace
a_psh 07-31-04, 02:16 AM	The Dragonlance stuff isn't very balanced. I'm not saying it's unplayable, but, in my opinion, nothing from the (3rd-party) DL books has a place in a non-DL game. Also note that if you're setting the bar for content at that level, pretty much any d20 publisher's product is in. So you can get more broken with Quintessential ______ or whatever. Best to just point out that the Warmage is broken, explicitly explain why, and be done with it, though, since getting into a random-unbalanced-OGL-content party cold war is a bad idea.
starfire311 08-02-04, 09:07 AM	Originally posted by a_psh The Dragonlance stuff isn't very balanced. I'm not saying it's unplayable, but, in my opinion, nothing from the (3rd-party) DL books has a place in a non-DL game. Also note that if you're setting the bar for content at that level, pretty much any d20 publisher's product is in. So you can get more broken with Quintessential ______ or whatever. Best to just point out that the Warmage is broken, explicitly explain why, and be done with it, though, since getting into a random-unbalanced-OGL-content party cold war is a bad idea. Arent the DL books printed by WotC? And yes there spells are utterly broken... the is a 2nd level spell shocking sparks... exat same as scorching ray but you get a +4 to hit if they are wearing metal armor and you get the 3rd bolt at 10th level not 11th, and it does electricity damage. These are the only differences... and then there is Dalamar's Lightning Lance... that spell is obscene a 4th level spell should not deal 39d6 all by itself, in one round.
Zelphi 08-02-04, 09:30 AM	You are playing a Dragon Lance campaign game aren't you? That'd be an obvious kicker for him... not only that but if you're in 3.5 then DL doesn't really apply... it's 3.0 If you are in DL - aren't there any stodgy PrC's you can take?
Ehlana 08-02-04, 12:29 PM	At the risk of somewhat hijacking the thread, some people have said "That's all the damage you're doing? You should be able to do xx damage in a hit easy." I'd like to see how you do 30+ damage a hit as a melee fighter, or does it take some 6 class monstrosity to do it?
Scion of Coldshard 08-02-04, 12:49 PM	Not a 6 class monstrosity. I would prefer to use a real class instead of fighter but.. (ok ok, enough of my bashing the fighter for this post ;) ) So we have a 14th level fighter here roughly. That is 150k gp. I will assume only core (even though it is obvious that it is not). He is apparently useing a one handed weapon, so his focus isnt so much on damage but a bit of damage plus ac. If he is also a dex fighter (very possible with that damage score) then he is further taken away from dealing damage. But, just from the base weapon we have. A +5 or +6 weapon shouldnt be out of the question. Lets assume that we have a friendly party who is willing to drop an extra spell here and there for the pc, this should not be unlikely. So d8 weapon, +4 (weapon specialization), +1 (enhancement), flaming, shock, frost, vicious. Have one of the party casters pop a greater magic weapon on it bumping it up to +3. I'll assume a 16 str (not too good, not too bad) d8+4+3+5d6+3= avg 32 damage. (min is 16, which is almost as much as his listed max damage) And this is a character who is useing very, very few of his resources, especially for this level. Is going more for ac (isnt useing a 2 handed weapon), and might just be going for a more dex based character. In other words, this is incredibly low damage output for the level. There are tons of things that could be done to boost this. So, if he is doing much less than this.. well.. If he was really going for damage (animated shield makes up for a good amount of ac) then at this level he should be doing 'way' more than this, up to around 3x as much per swing. Doing as much per round as the mage can would alleviate most/all of his worries I would think ;)
Sisyfos 08-02-04, 03:18 PM	Originally posted by Zelphi That'd be an obvious kicker for him... not only that but if you're in 3.5 then DL doesn't really apply... it's 3.0 Two words: Backwards compatibility.
Lokiyn 08-02-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by Zelphi You are playing a Dragon Lance campaign game aren't you? That'd be an obvious kicker for him... not only that but if you're in 3.5 then DL doesn't really apply... it's 3.0 If you are in DL - aren't there any stodgy PrC's you can take? psst.... psst.... hey just to let you know in the 3.5 book it specifically says that these rules are merely suggestions and that 3.5 is backwards compatible with 3.0 In other words take what you like from each "edition" and play a game that provides the most fun.
Zelphi 08-03-04, 06:27 AM	They aren't backwardly compatible? Or are you talking about DL and 3.0/3.5? Gnomes and Half Elves... I just looked throught the DL Campaign setting book (from the shelf in the book store). No mention of a Warmage PrC anywhere... Unless there's a revision... what the hell are you talking about?
DragonsArt 08-03-04, 09:32 AM	Originally posted by Ehlana At the risk of somewhat hijacking the thread, some people have said "That's all the damage you're doing? You should be able to do xx damage in a hit easy." I'd like to see how you do 30+ damage a hit as a melee fighter, or does it take some 6 class monstrosity to do it? Let's take a 6th level half-orc fighter with an base 18Str (+2 STR = 20STR) for the example: 1st - Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked chain, Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain 2nd - Dodge 3rd - Mobility, Spring Attack 4th - Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain 6th - Combat Reflexes, Whirlwind Attack Against a single opponent, you are doing making: 1 attack at +12 and 1 attack at +7. Assuming they hit, that's 4d4+14, so 20pts average. That's not including any attacks of oppurtunity. Now... the fun part is when there are 3 or more people in your area. Whirlwind attack at +12 against 3 people... Total damage 6d4+21, so average 30 pts. Do 1st-5th as above, but 6th as barbarian with only whirlwind attack and now you have, while raging: 1 attack at +14 and 1 attack at +9. Assuming they hit, that's 4d4+18, so 22pts average. Whirlwind attack at +14 against 3 people... Total damage 6d4+27, so average 36 pts. There are other options... two-handed weapon plus power attack, etc. But it's not hard to see how a 13th level fighter should be averaging 30+ points of damage. In fact, by 13th level I would think he would have at least a +4 STR item, plus a magic weapon... add +1 flaming weapon and +4 STR. 1 attack at +15 and 1 attack at +10. Assuming they hit, that's 4d4+24+2d6, so 35pts average against a single opponent. Again... there are more powerful builds, but I like reach.
Lokiyn 08-03-04, 04:38 PM	Originally posted by Zelphi They aren't backwardly compatible? Or are you talking about DL and 3.0/3.5? *snip* Unless there's a revision... what the hell are you talking about? In the phb and dmg there are sidedars that basically state that 3.5 is merely a version of dnd with the most common house rules implemented as core rules. Thats what cracks me up. 3.5 states that it is an optional version of 3.0 thus making neither more core.... so if its compatible with 3.0 its compatible with 3.5 after checking to make sure its not taking advantage of 3.0 loopholes that where altered in 3.5
thugmeister 08-03-04, 10:18 PM	If they're going to employ crazy powerful DL prestige classes like Warmage, they should also use the DL Curse of the Magi. Fort save or be fatigued when casting spells 3rd level or higher. DL makes wizards more awesome and also applies some fairly potent mechanical and RP restrictions. Without the restrictions balance is lost and you're in munchkinland.
Phrennzy 08-03-04, 11:17 PM	3.5 Our mage in our party is too powerful :confused: Uh, dude, just be glad he's in your party. :mage: :ayyyy!:
nmathew 08-04-04, 12:48 AM	For the record, the class is in Dragonlance campaign setting companion: Age of Mortals, apge 48. The publisher is Sovereign Press. drawbacks I can see: you need Eschew materials and weapon focus. Huge bonuses: armored spell casting (-10% failure at level 4), eventual ability to do an extra +3 damage PER die at level 5., 2 bonus feats by level 4. I hope that I'm still within fair use in that description. I've left out a few things that would make the class slightly more attractive too. Well, you need to be able to cast 3rd level arcane spells with this class to take it. If you're playing in the 5th age, he must be a sorc to take this class (or bard I suppose). The DL books contain rules on the weakening of magic for use in 5th age campaigns. Have the DM use them. If you're not in the start of the 5th age, he is either part of the Orders of High Sorcery, or a renegade at level 5 (I would assume that's veyr normal for most campaigns). If the latter, he should be getting one hell of a beat down unless you're playing an evil campaign. The only people strong enough to stand up to the orders would be the knighs of Neraka. Wait, this isn't published in the DL forum, but the general one... Please don't tell me that a massive check on player power (the orders) isn't in place because the player in question cherry picked a prc class from the dragonlance book. If he's picked a prc from a random book (you're not in a DL campiagn) I'd cry foul or take some prcs from the scarred lands setting....
devinmdp 08-04-04, 06:09 PM	First: Yes wizards are more powerful than comparable level fighters initially. But fighters don't run out of hands to grasp weapons or muscles to swing them. Mages run out of spells. If your mage is never running out of spells, then the DM isn't properly designing scenarios to tax them. If every scenario is basically 3 encounters set 10 minutes apart, then yes, the wizards will indeed dominate. But in scenarios where, for example, there is a running chase lasting for a day or two or a large dungeon with a time limit so that resting isn't acceptable, the fighters will suddenly come into their own as the wziards either 1) ration their spells or 2) use their spells up and then become somewhat useless. Second: A properly designed fighter can cause immense amounts of damage. I think you mentioned a 14th level wizard right? 14th level fighter: 22 Str. 2H Greataxe. Greater Weapon Specialization. Flaming +3 greataxe. Power attack. Greater Weapon Focus. The above is fairly vanilla for 14th level. This guy will have attacks of +25/+20/+15. He will do 1D12+1D6+9+3+4 = min 18 avg 26 max 34 Against a nice AC of, say, 26, which is actually a bit in the higher range of many CR 14 monsters, he will hit on the average with 2.15 attacks per round. That's an average of 55.9 damage per round. Now add in critical chance. Any axe wielder should have Improved Critical by then. 10% of his attacks will be threats and since about 2/3rds of them will successfully confirm, a total of 6.7% of hits will be confirmed crits. Average crit value is 78 damage. So average damage (counting crits) comes out to 59.4 per round. That's not bad given that a wizard doing 14D6 damage at the same level will average 49 damage on a failed save and assuming even a 75% save failure rate, that's an average of 36.75 damage per round. So, a fighter can indeed beat a wizard in round for round damage in many situations. Devin
IceFractal 08-04-04, 06:39 PM	I think the real problem is only doing 1d8+1d6+4 (or whatever it was, exactly) damage a round. Fighters can do waaaaaaaay more than that, so unless you have other abilities that make up for the low damage, its time to start thinking optimization. Check out this ad: --- Prime Time Scrying Ad --- <Zoom in on party walking along, Wizard is riding a flying carpet, Fighter is running along behind him carrying a huge sack of scrolls> Announcer: Fighters, tired of being the Wizard's scroll caddy? Announcer: Try the "Full Metal Destruction" build and start kicking more ass today! <Zoom in on the Full Metal Destruction build kicking ass> --- End Ad --- The basics of the Full Metal Destruction build are these: * Large Size or Bigger (race, template, magic item, etc) * Spiked Chain, Whip Dagger, Meteor Hammer, etc (basically any weapon that lets you hit both reach and melee squares) * Monkey Grip to get as big a threatened radius as possible * Combat Reflexes, for lots of AoOs * Mage Slayer, to prevent any spellcasting nearby * Large and in Charge, to pound on anyone who tries to approach you. Ideas for it are: * Feats to take advantage of your huge reach and damage, there are many. Look in Complete Warrior and the MiniHB, as well as the core books, of course. * War Hulk is good if you focus on Strength over Dex, otherwise try to build up to Whirlwind Attack. * Wrathful Healing and Viscious on your weapon are nice, especially if you deal lots o' damage. Some parts of this combo are quite broken, especially Mage Slayer, Large and in Charge, and Wrathful Healing. Just more reason to use them! :smirk: Seriously though, the point is that a Fighter with the right feat/weapon/class combos can be as effective as a spellcaster, even at high levels. The Hulking Hurler build that does over a million damage (I'm not kidding, search the CO board), is just wrong however. :D
AtmaWeapon 08-04-04, 07:37 PM	Originally posted by Ehlana At the risk of somewhat hijacking the thread, some people have said "That's all the damage you're doing? You should be able to do xx damage in a hit easy." I'd like to see how you do 30+ damage a hit as a melee fighter, or does it take some 6 class monstrosity to do it? 12th Level? Barbarian6/Frenzied Berserker6 Wielding: Mundane Great Axe. We'll say you rolled decently and have a 16 str so, 16 +4 (Rage) +6 (Frenzy) So, that's 26 STR, so +8 To-Hit and +8 Damage Since you have a base attack bonus of +lots, we'll assume you probably don't need all that bonus to-hit, so we'll channel 5 of it to improved power attack.. there's an extra 15 damage per hit. So, You're making a full attack, that's +15/+15/+10/+5, (Extra attack while you're in a frenzy), for a potential... 1d12+15(Power attack)+12(Strength) for a total of 1d12+27 damage per hit, or 4d12+108 damage per round, or 3d12+81 damage on a critical hit. It's not that hard to make a crazy melee fighter.
Valoren 08-05-04, 03:16 AM	A 3.5 mage is a whole lot weaker than a 3.0 mage. A 3.5 mage while still strong, is not leaps and bounds stronger than other classes, assuming all other things are equal. If something looks fishy, pull out the rules and make sure he's not misreading a rule. Next, pull out the rules and make sure the other characters understand their various options in terms of "power". Finally, discuss the situation with the DM. After all that, things should become balanced for all.
Harmor 08-05-04, 04:55 AM	I would like to remind you that the mage have spells that literially have a save or die. Other than say assassins with their death ablity (or similar classes), there's not 1-shot you're out melee. A druid vs. a mage, mage wins A cleric vs. a mage, draw but usually a mage A fighter vs. a mage, mage A ranger vs. mage, mage A monk vs. mage, mage A barbarian vs. mage, mage A sorcerer vs. mage, draw depending on sorcerer spell selection A bard vs. mage, haha bard...mage A rogue vs. mage, mage Even if the mage started in melee, unless the melee type could keep him in melee the mage of significant level could just teleport, dismension door, or fly and basically bombard the melee from range. An archer or ranged melee type, a mage puts up Protection from Arrows or Wind Wall A mage's weekness is his hit points and usually his strength so grappling a mage is great, if he don't just teleport or dimension door away. Caster classes usually can make their own magical items, which for a gp vs. gp makes them have beeter equipment. I realized how useless my level 13 Dwarven Defender/Fighter/Cleric was when our 13th level mage could just desimate me from range (even with a sling), his damage output was 7-10x mine. I have 183 hp and he has I think has 77. If I had 2 or 3 full rounds on him I could kill him. But unless I can stop him from hitting me for 60-70 points of damage a round I'm toast.
Valoren 08-05-04, 05:31 AM	Let's not get carried away now. Citing a classes' particular ability and then listing a 1 on 1 list of class vs class battles seriously detracts from the original poster's thread. DnD was not designed for Class A vs Class B, round 1, fight! I'd be glad to take it up with you on another thread, and discuss the many variables involved in a class vs class comparison. But for the original poster's issue, it's quite clear that a) his party's mage is possibly misreading/misinterpreting some rules. b) the other characters are possibly not fully utilizing all the rules available to them. and most importantly, c) the DM needs to recognize the situation and cater to the party's various characters. The original poster and his fellow party members need to sit down and discuss how to make the game fun for all. A mage, regardless of power and munchkin build, should in a successful and fun game require his companions for survival, just as they should need him.
Zelphi 08-05-04, 09:57 AM	Side question....even if it was the miniatures handbook... is that really suitable for non miniature play?
Valoren 08-05-04, 11:00 AM	The deceptive thing about the Miniatures Handbook is that there is as much info in there applicable to the regular table top RPG as there is to the miniatures version. The warmage is "suitable" rules-wise... it'd just be a little awkward in terms of flavour, role-playing and utility value in a regular campaign, in my opinion.
Scion of Coldshard 08-05-04, 01:17 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Other than say assassins with their death ablity (or similar classes), there's not 1-shot you're out melee. I deleted the long list that was pretty useless. If you start another thread to discuss this please post it here so that we can talk about that sort of thing over there. In any event however, your analysis is highly biased and more or less useless. It ignores pretty much everything except your single arguement (even ignoring the ability to actually 'save' or simply be 'immune' by various methods) Originally posted by Harmor *clipped another comparison about every mage haveing the perfect spell needed memorized at all times* hmm.. so if someone plans ahead appropriately, they are allowed to use the spells, and everything else goes perfectly then mages are strong? The same can be said for 'every' class.. well, except the fighter class, they just suck ;) Originally posted by Harmor I realized how useless my level 13 Dwarven Defender/Fighter/Cleric was when our 13th level mage could just desimate me from range (even with a sling), his damage output was 7-10x mine. So your multiclass, all sorts of defense guy, isnt as good at offense as a class that is designed to be offensive to some degree? Umm.. good? Really, start another thread and put it up on here, I'd like to discuss things further ;) How someone is using a sling and dealing 7-10x your damage.. well.. either that is some sort of major exageration or some very, very odd things are going on. oh, and as for the mini's handbook, it is by and far mostly good stuff. Although quite a bit is underpowered unfortunately. But then every book has some underpowered stuff and some questionable stuff. Different things for different campaigns, even the core is like that.
DungeonMaster 08-05-04, 02:49 PM	The dragonlance campaign setting is decidedly 3.5. It was released in august 2003 just after the release of 3.5 core books in July. Not that it matters really but it's the only campaign setting besides Eberron to be 3.5. That warmage PrC is fringing broken from my percpective. Damage isn't everything a mage can do but that can be a lot of extra damage.
J. Grenemyer 08-07-04, 05:28 PM	Hello, Originally posted by Zelphi Side question....even if it was the miniatures handbook... is that really suitable for non miniature play? Yes. We use it regularly in my 3.5 Forgotten Realms Campaign. Originally posted by DungeonMaster Not that it matters really but it's the only campaign setting besides Eberron to be 3.5. Not exactly true. The Forgotten Realms has been updated to 3.5 standards accross the board. :D
wdarkk 08-07-04, 08:16 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster That warmage PrC is fringing broken from my percpective. Damage isn't everything a mage can do but that can be a lot of extra damage. Me agreeing with DungeonMaster is rather rare, but this is right. It's effectively doubling the damage of all your spells, since most spells are xd6 which is an average of 3.5*x damage, so now it's 6.5*x damage. The bonus feats and other bonuses aren't helping its case. This is one of the top 5 broken things I've seen in the 3.5 DL stuff. I'd rank them something like this: 5. Solomnic Auxiliary Mage 4. Elemental Darts 3. Dalamar's Lightning Lance 2. Warmage 1. Giving a +11 ARTIFACT weapon to a party a little below 10th level (Key of Destiny adventure)
Harmor 08-07-04, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by devinmdp Mages run out of spells. If your mage is never running out of spells, then the DM isn't properly designing scenarios to tax them. If every scenario is basically 3 encounters set 10 minutes apart, then yes, the wizards will indeed dominate. Well everytime the mage runs out of spells he just casts Rope Trick and rests for 9+ hours to get his spells back. In our campaign the DM allows arcane casters to refresh after 8 hours rest unlike Divine casters that require a full 24-hour period. I objected many times, but my GM won't budge.
AtmaWeapon 08-07-04, 09:36 PM	Originally posted by Harmor Well everytime the mage runs out of spells he just casts Rope Trick and rests for 9+ hours to get his spells back. In our campaign the DM allows arcane casters to refresh after 8 hours rest unlike Divine casters that require a full 24-hour period. I objected many times, but my GM won't budge. DM doesn't need to budge. Just say in character that you're sick and tired of having to rest every time the mage runs out of spells, and that your character wants to get in at least 16 hours of adventuring. Argue that these excessive rests are giving the monsters time to regroup and put you further in risk.
devinmdp 08-09-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by AtmaWeapon DM doesn't need to budge. Just say in character that you're sick and tired of having to rest every time the mage runs out of spells, and that your character wants to get in at least 16 hours of adventuring. Argue that these excessive rests are giving the monsters time to regroup and put you further in risk. Well, if your DM is making house rules that encourage mages to constantly replenish their spells, then the fault lies entirely with your DM and not the rules...right? As far as the dreaded Rope Trick, at some level things are going to be able to see invisible. Then a simple Dispel Magic will give the party a rude awakening. Devin
Arbitrary Aardvark 08-09-04, 03:33 PM	There is also a feat in complete divine that allows spells to affect interdimensional spaces and other planes. (I believe it will apply to rope tricks.)
devinmdp 08-09-04, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by Arbitrary Aardvark There is also a feat in complete divine that allows spells to affect interdimensional spaces and other planes. (I believe it will apply to rope tricks.) Indeed. There are so many nice ways to make the Rope Trickers pay. After all, there is only a single window and it faces downard. So in essence, an entire army can sneak up and surround the PCs, then the Rope Trick can be dispelled. For added fun, roll up a cauldron full of potent acid and put it right under the Rope Trick. Devin
Surgo 08-09-04, 03:53 PM	* Spiked Chain, Whip Dagger, Meteor Hammer, etc (basically any weapon that lets you hit both reach and melee squares) Read the rules for the Whip Dagger again. Besides, he said that he uses one-handed weapons. All of these listed are for two-handed builds.
StrahdVonZarovich 08-09-04, 05:32 PM	Hummm guys, I don't wanna the one who ruins all the fun. But what if he is talking about about the WAR WIZARD OF CORMYR in the Magic of Faerun instead the one you seem to have taken in the MiniHandbook. Anyway wasn't all the core classes of Minihandbook just for the Mine game actualy ? Should have more info on that mini thing...And when you guys are saying ''IIRC'' or this ''*insert class name* is broken'' what dos that mean ? The Quintessial stuff, remains a mystery to me as well.
Scion of Coldshard 08-09-04, 05:36 PM	a good portion of the mini's book was written for normal d&d, and as such is incompatable with the mini's game in a useful fashion. In other words, it is for regular d&d and not the mini's game ;)
StrahdVonZarovich 08-09-04, 05:39 PM	Thank you for enlighthing me, oh my lord. *bows down* Hey your lucky its not everyday, that the Master of Vampires bow down to a simple mortal.
Demon Gnome 08-12-04, 05:11 PM	Try a level 2rng/10ftr in my group at the moment with +1 holy mighty composite longbow and rapid shot and manyshot and other ranged feats. Using a standard action to attack (as does a spell) with manyshot, he does like 3d8+6d6+24 (avg:58.5; max: 84 (not counting crits)) against evil creatures (they are in the underdark atm). So its not just wizards that can be a bit more powered at higher levels. Not to mention he pretty much ignores cover and has high attack bonuses even with manyshot penalties.
Harmor 08-12-04, 06:12 PM	You can't use Manyshot and Rapid Shot at the same time. Manyshot can only be used as a standard action. (-4 for 2 arrows, -6 for 3 etc...) Rapid shot gives you one additional attack when you're making a full-round attack (all attacks at -2) Read the FAQ and about stacking these two feats. Its very clear.
Demon Gnome 08-12-04, 06:40 PM	And read my post ... I only said he HAD rapid shot and manyshot, among other ranged feats, not that he was using them together. The stats I mentioned was for Manyshot alone ... actually it's even worse with rapid shot with 4 shots instead of 3. (4d8+8d6+32 per round with full attack against evil).