30th level archmage v Fully grown ancient black dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

30th level archmage v Fully grown ancient black dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master Of Twists
02-28-05, 08:43 AM They are fighting in deserted wasteland, no objects to use to their advantage and no interruptions from anything. In your opinion/s, who do you think would win? If any
Bonzai
02-28-05, 09:18 AM With plenty of heads up and prep time? I'd back the wizard every time. Spells that kill outright, Avasculate will halve it's hp each time, using the archmages energy substitution for sonic damage, and all sorts of nastyness.

With no prep, or in an ambush, the wizard should always have a contingency in place to port the heck out of there.
Clawhound
02-28-05, 10:30 AM Using SRD resources, maybe the wizard could win. Maybe. He could certainly lose gracefully (that is, live). Even with good prep work, the wizard needs some luck. The dragon is gargantuan in size and could easily just swallow the wizard. This also assumes that the dragon is played intelligently, has all his feats, and knows all the dirty tricks in the rules.

Using spells outside the SRD, the wizard should be able to win. Dragons are balanced to the core rules, not to the expanded rules. Too many expanded rules just aren't balanced. I'm not sure what Avisculate is, but halving HP's without a save? I'm suspicious of that. If Avisculate allows a save, then don't use it against a dragon.
Mikal
02-28-05, 10:43 AM Epic level wizard vs. non epic black dragon?

1 Epic Dragon Killing Spell Later, and the Wizard has a new pair of black lizard skin boots.
CaineTheInsaine
02-28-05, 11:09 AM I got to go with Mikal on this one, an age catagory 10 Ancient Black is a CR of 19. While the Wizard is CR 30, an 11 point difference. Even if the Wizard hasn't taken Epic Spell Casting, he surely has the slots of a maximized 9th level spell or 3, plus who knows what sort of magic items, intelligence, or other tricks, Hands down, 1 round. Maaaaaybe 2. The Dragon's saves are only +23/+17/+20, while the wizards are at minimum 23 for a ninth level spell, thats just 10+int(given an 18 +4)+spell level(9). But your wizard is going to have several int. improving items, Tome of Clear Thought(+5), Handband of Intellect(+6), thats a 29, plus through various feats(Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, for a total DC of about 30. Then you look at spell resistance, 9th level Meteor Swarm, no save for most effects, a reflex for half (dragon needs a 14 or higher, less then 50% chance to make), and allows Spell resistance.. SR? the dragon is SR 25... the wizards Spell Caster Check is d20+30! Even on a 1 he wins. If you don't have Meteor Swarm, Wail of the Banshee, slightly better chance the dragon will make it, roll of 7 or higher, but then we have Power Word:Kill, so save, and again, Spell Resistance is a null factor. Even in an ambush situation, your probally looking at needing to cast Speak with Dead to find out what the Dragon's actions where going to be the 2nd round. This is just using the 3 core books.
Bonzai
02-28-05, 11:31 AM "I'm not sure what Avisculate is, but halving HP's without a save? I'm suspicious of that. If Avisculate allows a save, then don't use it against a dragon."

Yes there is a save involved. If they fail they are stunned. The halving of the hp happens regardless. It's from Libris Mortis, btw. A wizard with a few buff spells on (Greater mage armor, superior invisibility, ghost form for example), should have ample time to kill most things.
Derren S.
02-28-05, 02:14 PM Well, I think no one disagrees when Í call this spell broken.
A lvl 30 wizad could kill the dragon without using such spells.
ShadowDragon8685
02-28-05, 02:48 PM Two words.

"Momento Mori."

DC 31 Will Save or DIE. No ifs, ands, buts, qualifying remarks, closing statements, or even a "gurk" sound. You blow this will save - on a spell cast as a free action with absoloutly nothinig at all but a moment's thought needed to cast - and you simply, unquaifably die.
CaineTheInsaine
02-28-05, 02:51 PM Where the heck does that come from?
MythMage
02-28-05, 08:06 PM Momento Mori is an epic spell from the Epic Level Handbook. Its save DC is actually 30 + Int bonus, or around 39 or so in this case.

Also, it has a Spellcraft DC to cast of about 86, so he needs a modifier of +76 to have a good chance to cast it successfully. Let's see how that might come about...

Int bonus (guess +10) + Spellcraft ranks (maximum: 33) + only item that bestows a bonus on Spellcraft checks, the rod of the Epic Spellcaster: +10 Insight bonus = only +53 or so available going with Epic Level Handbook only. He obviously needs a little more than that.

However, using the magic item generation table, it's not hard to create a magic item to supplement this one:

Minor Ring of Epic Spellcasting: Wearer gains a +30 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to cast epic spells.

Market Price: 90,000 gp (non-epic)

This one's like pennies for a 30th-level character.

Major Ring of Epic Spellcasting: Wearer gains a +60 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to cast epic spells.

Market Price: 3,600,000 gp (epic)

This thing's within 30-boy's reach, if he doesn't buy much else epic.

And, just for the heck of it...

Superior Ring of Epic Spellcasting: Wearer gains a +150 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to cast epic spells.

Market Price: 22,500,000 gp (really epic)

Man, I never realized how crazily efficient it was to make items like that for epic spellcasting!

So, back to the 30th-level wizard: He could cast momento mori, no sweat, with the first ring mentioned.
TinManFan
02-28-05, 09:10 PM Uh, dude, multiple slotless +30 items of spellcraft, different bonuses. 180k a pop most likely (Unless yer talkin luck bonuses). Can have a spellcraft of about 180 at lvl 30. hey, isn't that enuff for Dire Winter? WEEEEE!!!!
LosGunD
02-28-05, 09:25 PM If your SpellCraft score is any good cast these two epic spells--Epic Mage Armor and Epic Natural Armor. At 30th level my favored soul could give himself and Armor bonus of 27 AND Natural armor bonus of 27 that lasted 30 hours on end each. That should be plenty of time to take care of just about anything. Cast ANYTHING and you should be able to take the Dragon easy.
PhaedrusXY
03-01-05, 12:27 AM If the wizard can cast Epic spells and has researched some decent ones, he will win hands down, unless the person playing him is a moron or the DM is very unfair (i.e. the dragon surprizes the wizard and already has an Antimagic Field going). Even if the DM is very unfair, the wizard still probably has a good chance of winning if played well, as Epic spells even work in antimagic fields I think.

If the wizard does not have access to Epic spellcasting, and can only use material from the SRD, he should still win most of the time, but it will depend more on circumstances. The dragon might win, if it has a large advantage of some kind in the circumstances. The dragon should have a very very hard time of actually killing the wizard, though. At most, he could probably just drive him away.
Vatras
03-01-05, 02:22 AM What have you got against the poor dragon?

Or did you mean a truly ancient black dragon, advanced to the max according to the Draconomicon, armed and armored with the feats, PrCs and spells thereof?
If Yes, the wizard is probably going to need a cleric to reassemble his sorry carcass.
If No, Offler, he-who-hates-handbags, god of crocodiles and other oversized lizards will come and punish you for torturing one of his children :)
anders
03-01-05, 03:28 AM It all boils down to who wins the initiative as is the case for all epic stuff. (with fully grown ancient i guess you mean Great wyrm - largest beast there is?)

and most likely both of them will have a contingency set up to save their life if they go below 100 hp or something.

The wizard has more character wealth and "core" strength though (and propably a better initiative modifier).
Iyestorm
03-01-05, 09:30 PM My money's on the dragon. This guy's not going to play fair. Dragons always have a few tricks up their... uh... scales, Draconomicon or no Draconomicon.

Like... contingincy kill on hostages dear to said wizard. Or something.

:cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :pumpkin: :gift:

There's my money. Lemme know how it turns out.
green_yawgmoth
03-01-05, 10:11 PM Well, I think no one disagrees when Í call this spell broken.You think wrong. Avasculate is a 7th level spell, and requires a RTA to do anything. Compared to FoD which is a save or die with no RTA, I think it's just fine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vatras
03-01-05, 10:37 PM If it is just the great wyrm from the MM he will be true to his CR of 22 and die in the line of duty.

His SR is not existent against caster level 30. The save DC of the wizard will be around 35/38 (I go by our epic wizard and), meaning the dragon will fail 50% or more of the time, therefore being very vulnerable to save-or-die spells. Since all epic battles start the same, the wizard will use his dispel against the dragon and clean him of all spells in one go...caster level 30 against 15 is no contest. The dragon will use his breath (he knows he cant dispel the wizard - its waste of time) and the wizard ignore it (there is a 7th level spell granting immunity to an element like acid; if not, he will have around 275hp minimum and just eat the 60 damage).
Now the dragon will eat all ranged touch spells and 50% of the save-or-dies as his protections are gone. A maximized meteorswarm will do 192 damage and polar rays 87 without a metamagic feat. It takes only a few spells to remove his 536 hp, if he doesnt die to flesh to stone or similar.
Granting the dragon full attacks (bite, claw x2, wings x2, tail) he could do 8d6 + 4d8 + 56 for an average of 102 if he never misses. As he is going to miss a lot, he can be happy, if he wounds the wizard at all...he is prey to all defenses, from mirror image to displacement, from stoneskin to blink.
If the wizard has taken the epic feat at 27 and 30 which grants him more quickened spells per round, the dragon has a real good chance to die in round one: one dispel followed by three quickened save-or-die spells, most likely flesh to stone, as he can have several 11th level spells. If he hits him with three quickened (and maybe empowered) Enervations, the fight ends in round two, because of the -7 on all saves (or -10 if empowered).

He can of course fly away, but we are talking about the two duking it out. Even if we grant the dragon, that he is a spellcasting harrier (epic feat, grants automatic AoO if someone he threatens casts defensively) he has no chance. First he has to hit (e.g. displacement makes that risky), and second the wizard gets a concentration roll to continue (10+damage dealt). The dragons primary attack, his bite deals 4d6+13. The wizard has a concentration skill of 33 ranks and his CON bonus, which will be at least +7, for 40 or more to which he adds 1d20 (I am assuming the wizard is shapechanging for AC and stats and immunity to criticals). So the dragon can do no more than 37 damage if he rolls maximum, requiring a DC of 47 (which will interrupt only 25% of the time) or 27 on average, and the DC of 37 is automatically made (you can find some pretty good shapes with higher CON that grant enough bonus to ignore the 47 too).

I am not taking into account possible epic spells.

Now if the dragon was lifted to CR 30 by using the Draconomicon, things become uncertain. His SR would matter again. His saves and hp would rise. His caster level would become competitive again (not 30, but not autodispel either), and he could get better (the dragon spell section) and higher spells too. He would also have access to metabreath feats and PrC, one of which grants a breath with profane damage, circumventing the immunity spells, others granting more immunities to himself.
He might actually kill the wizard, if he gets lucky, in one round himself (probably not, but random rolls allow for it), and in any case he will make him work for his life.
Loren Pechtel
03-01-05, 11:37 PM Uh, dude, multiple slotless +30 items of spellcraft, different bonuses. 180k a pop most likely (Unless yer talkin luck bonuses). Can have a spellcraft of about 180 at lvl 30. hey, isn't that enuff for Dire Winter? WEEEEE!!!!

It's already 180k before you consider different bonuses.

Personally, I think bonuses other than enchantment should be *MUCH* more expensive or else you get this sort of cheese.

Anyway, you can keep your wimpy spellcraft 180. I'll take diplomacy 180 and you'll be working for me.
Loren Pechtel
03-01-05, 11:57 PM If your SpellCraft score is any good cast these two epic spells--Epic Mage Armor and Epic Natural Armor. At 30th level my favored soul could give himself and Armor bonus of 27 AND Natural armor bonus of 27 that lasted 30 hours on end each. That should be plenty of time to take care of just about anything. Cast ANYTHING and you should be able to take the Dragon easy.

1) A 20 still hits.

2) AC does nothing about things like the dragon's breath weapon.

I do agree that an epic wizard should have both of them up and be hit only on a 20.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master Of Twists 02-28-05, 08:43 AM	They are fighting in deserted wasteland, no objects to use to their advantage and no interruptions from anything. In your opinion/s, who do you think would win? If any
Bonzai 02-28-05, 09:18 AM	With plenty of heads up and prep time? I'd back the wizard every time. Spells that kill outright, Avasculate will halve it's hp each time, using the archmages energy substitution for sonic damage, and all sorts of nastyness. With no prep, or in an ambush, the wizard should always have a contingency in place to port the heck out of there.
Clawhound 02-28-05, 10:30 AM	Using SRD resources, maybe the wizard could win. Maybe. He could certainly lose gracefully (that is, live). Even with good prep work, the wizard needs some luck. The dragon is gargantuan in size and could easily just swallow the wizard. This also assumes that the dragon is played intelligently, has all his feats, and knows all the dirty tricks in the rules. Using spells outside the SRD, the wizard should be able to win. Dragons are balanced to the core rules, not to the expanded rules. Too many expanded rules just aren't balanced. I'm not sure what Avisculate is, but halving HP's without a save? I'm suspicious of that. If Avisculate allows a save, then don't use it against a dragon.
Mikal 02-28-05, 10:43 AM	Epic level wizard vs. non epic black dragon? 1 Epic Dragon Killing Spell Later, and the Wizard has a new pair of black lizard skin boots.
CaineTheInsaine 02-28-05, 11:09 AM	I got to go with Mikal on this one, an age catagory 10 Ancient Black is a CR of 19. While the Wizard is CR 30, an 11 point difference. Even if the Wizard hasn't taken Epic Spell Casting, he surely has the slots of a maximized 9th level spell or 3, plus who knows what sort of magic items, intelligence, or other tricks, Hands down, 1 round. Maaaaaybe 2. The Dragon's saves are only +23/+17/+20, while the wizards are at minimum 23 for a ninth level spell, thats just 10+int(given an 18 +4)+spell level(9). But your wizard is going to have several int. improving items, Tome of Clear Thought(+5), Handband of Intellect(+6), thats a 29, plus through various feats(Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus, for a total DC of about 30. Then you look at spell resistance, 9th level Meteor Swarm, no save for most effects, a reflex for half (dragon needs a 14 or higher, less then 50% chance to make), and allows Spell resistance.. SR? the dragon is SR 25... the wizards Spell Caster Check is d20+30! Even on a 1 he wins. If you don't have Meteor Swarm, Wail of the Banshee, slightly better chance the dragon will make it, roll of 7 or higher, but then we have Power Word:Kill, so save, and again, Spell Resistance is a null factor. Even in an ambush situation, your probally looking at needing to cast Speak with Dead to find out what the Dragon's actions where going to be the 2nd round. This is just using the 3 core books.
Bonzai 02-28-05, 11:31 AM	"I'm not sure what Avisculate is, but halving HP's without a save? I'm suspicious of that. If Avisculate allows a save, then don't use it against a dragon." Yes there is a save involved. If they fail they are stunned. The halving of the hp happens regardless. It's from Libris Mortis, btw. A wizard with a few buff spells on (Greater mage armor, superior invisibility, ghost form for example), should have ample time to kill most things.
Derren S. 02-28-05, 02:14 PM	Well, I think no one disagrees when Í call this spell broken. A lvl 30 wizad could kill the dragon without using such spells.
ShadowDragon8685 02-28-05, 02:48 PM	Two words. "Momento Mori." DC 31 Will Save or DIE. No ifs, ands, buts, qualifying remarks, closing statements, or even a "gurk" sound. You blow this will save - on a spell cast as a free action with absoloutly nothinig at all but a moment's thought needed to cast - and you simply, unquaifably die.
CaineTheInsaine 02-28-05, 02:51 PM	Where the heck does that come from?
MythMage 02-28-05, 08:06 PM	Momento Mori is an epic spell from the Epic Level Handbook. Its save DC is actually 30 + Int bonus, or around 39 or so in this case. Also, it has a Spellcraft DC to cast of about 86, so he needs a modifier of +76 to have a good chance to cast it successfully. Let's see how that might come about... Int bonus (guess +10) + Spellcraft ranks (maximum: 33) + only item that bestows a bonus on Spellcraft checks, the rod of the Epic Spellcaster: +10 Insight bonus = only +53 or so available going with Epic Level Handbook only. He obviously needs a little more than that. However, using the magic item generation table, it's not hard to create a magic item to supplement this one: Minor Ring of Epic Spellcasting: Wearer gains a +30 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to cast epic spells. Market Price: 90,000 gp (non-epic) This one's like pennies for a 30th-level character. Major Ring of Epic Spellcasting: Wearer gains a +60 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to cast epic spells. Market Price: 3,600,000 gp (epic) This thing's within 30-boy's reach, if he doesn't buy much else epic. And, just for the heck of it... Superior Ring of Epic Spellcasting: Wearer gains a +150 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks to cast epic spells. Market Price: 22,500,000 gp (really epic) Man, I never realized how crazily efficient it was to make items like that for epic spellcasting! So, back to the 30th-level wizard: He could cast momento mori, no sweat, with the first ring mentioned.
TinManFan 02-28-05, 09:10 PM	Uh, dude, multiple slotless +30 items of spellcraft, different bonuses. 180k a pop most likely (Unless yer talkin luck bonuses). Can have a spellcraft of about 180 at lvl 30. hey, isn't that enuff for Dire Winter? WEEEEE!!!!
LosGunD 02-28-05, 09:25 PM	If your SpellCraft score is any good cast these two epic spells--Epic Mage Armor and Epic Natural Armor. At 30th level my favored soul could give himself and Armor bonus of 27 AND Natural armor bonus of 27 that lasted 30 hours on end each. That should be plenty of time to take care of just about anything. Cast ANYTHING and you should be able to take the Dragon easy.
PhaedrusXY 03-01-05, 12:27 AM	If the wizard can cast Epic spells and has researched some decent ones, he will win hands down, unless the person playing him is a moron or the DM is very unfair (i.e. the dragon surprizes the wizard and already has an Antimagic Field going). Even if the DM is very unfair, the wizard still probably has a good chance of winning if played well, as Epic spells even work in antimagic fields I think. If the wizard does not have access to Epic spellcasting, and can only use material from the SRD, he should still win most of the time, but it will depend more on circumstances. The dragon might win, if it has a large advantage of some kind in the circumstances. The dragon should have a very very hard time of actually killing the wizard, though. At most, he could probably just drive him away.
Vatras 03-01-05, 02:22 AM	What have you got against the poor dragon? Or did you mean a truly ancient black dragon, advanced to the max according to the Draconomicon, armed and armored with the feats, PrCs and spells thereof? If Yes, the wizard is probably going to need a cleric to reassemble his sorry carcass. If No, Offler, he-who-hates-handbags, god of crocodiles and other oversized lizards will come and punish you for torturing one of his children :)
anders 03-01-05, 03:28 AM	It all boils down to who wins the initiative as is the case for all epic stuff. (with fully grown ancient i guess you mean Great wyrm - largest beast there is?) and most likely both of them will have a contingency set up to save their life if they go below 100 hp or something. The wizard has more character wealth and "core" strength though (and propably a better initiative modifier).
Iyestorm 03-01-05, 09:30 PM	My money's on the dragon. This guy's not going to play fair. Dragons always have a few tricks up their... uh... scales, Draconomicon or no Draconomicon. Like... contingincy kill on hostages dear to said wizard. Or something. :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :twocents: :pumpkin: :gift: There's my money. Lemme know how it turns out.
green_yawgmoth 03-01-05, 10:11 PM	Well, I think no one disagrees when Í call this spell broken.You think wrong. Avasculate is a 7th level spell, and requires a RTA to do anything. Compared to FoD which is a save or die with no RTA, I think it's just fine. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vatras 03-01-05, 10:37 PM	If it is just the great wyrm from the MM he will be true to his CR of 22 and die in the line of duty. His SR is not existent against caster level 30. The save DC of the wizard will be around 35/38 (I go by our epic wizard and), meaning the dragon will fail 50% or more of the time, therefore being very vulnerable to save-or-die spells. Since all epic battles start the same, the wizard will use his dispel against the dragon and clean him of all spells in one go...caster level 30 against 15 is no contest. The dragon will use his breath (he knows he cant dispel the wizard - its waste of time) and the wizard ignore it (there is a 7th level spell granting immunity to an element like acid; if not, he will have around 275hp minimum and just eat the 60 damage). Now the dragon will eat all ranged touch spells and 50% of the save-or-dies as his protections are gone. A maximized meteorswarm will do 192 damage and polar rays 87 without a metamagic feat. It takes only a few spells to remove his 536 hp, if he doesnt die to flesh to stone or similar. Granting the dragon full attacks (bite, claw x2, wings x2, tail) he could do 8d6 + 4d8 + 56 for an average of 102 if he never misses. As he is going to miss a lot, he can be happy, if he wounds the wizard at all...he is prey to all defenses, from mirror image to displacement, from stoneskin to blink. If the wizard has taken the epic feat at 27 and 30 which grants him more quickened spells per round, the dragon has a real good chance to die in round one: one dispel followed by three quickened save-or-die spells, most likely flesh to stone, as he can have several 11th level spells. If he hits him with three quickened (and maybe empowered) Enervations, the fight ends in round two, because of the -7 on all saves (or -10 if empowered). He can of course fly away, but we are talking about the two duking it out. Even if we grant the dragon, that he is a spellcasting harrier (epic feat, grants automatic AoO if someone he threatens casts defensively) he has no chance. First he has to hit (e.g. displacement makes that risky), and second the wizard gets a concentration roll to continue (10+damage dealt). The dragons primary attack, his bite deals 4d6+13. The wizard has a concentration skill of 33 ranks and his CON bonus, which will be at least +7, for 40 or more to which he adds 1d20 (I am assuming the wizard is shapechanging for AC and stats and immunity to criticals). So the dragon can do no more than 37 damage if he rolls maximum, requiring a DC of 47 (which will interrupt only 25% of the time) or 27 on average, and the DC of 37 is automatically made (you can find some pretty good shapes with higher CON that grant enough bonus to ignore the 47 too). I am not taking into account possible epic spells. Now if the dragon was lifted to CR 30 by using the Draconomicon, things become uncertain. His SR would matter again. His saves and hp would rise. His caster level would become competitive again (not 30, but not autodispel either), and he could get better (the dragon spell section) and higher spells too. He would also have access to metabreath feats and PrC, one of which grants a breath with profane damage, circumventing the immunity spells, others granting more immunities to himself. He might actually kill the wizard, if he gets lucky, in one round himself (probably not, but random rolls allow for it), and in any case he will make him work for his life.
Loren Pechtel 03-01-05, 11:37 PM	Uh, dude, multiple slotless +30 items of spellcraft, different bonuses. 180k a pop most likely (Unless yer talkin luck bonuses). Can have a spellcraft of about 180 at lvl 30. hey, isn't that enuff for Dire Winter? WEEEEE!!!! It's already 180k before you consider different bonuses. Personally, I think bonuses other than enchantment should be MUCH more expensive or else you get this sort of cheese. Anyway, you can keep your wimpy spellcraft 180. I'll take diplomacy 180 and you'll be working for me.
Loren Pechtel 03-01-05, 11:57 PM	If your SpellCraft score is any good cast these two epic spells--Epic Mage Armor and Epic Natural Armor. At 30th level my favored soul could give himself and Armor bonus of 27 AND Natural armor bonus of 27 that lasted 30 hours on end each. That should be plenty of time to take care of just about anything. Cast ANYTHING and you should be able to take the Dragon easy. 1) A 20 still hits. 2) AC does nothing about things like the dragon's breath weapon. I do agree that an epic wizard should have both of them up and be hit only on a 20.