Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PinkVishnu 02-13-05, 08:12 PM	A little while ago, I started a thread about the fact that our group levels up almost every session, due to the insanely powerful monsters our DM throws at us. Well, he's really done it this time. At 9th level (we had just levelled up from 7th level, thanks to a few beholders), we faced a dragon. A CR 21 red dragon, that is. Adding that to the XP from the three Efreet we had just slain, I calculated that each character levelled up four times in just one session. How's that for level progression??
Moon-Lancer 02-13-05, 08:17 PM	you cant actualy level 4 times in one session. you stop gaining exp. you would level then the ep it would take to level agean but you wont. its written some were that you can only level once per a session. forget were.
Salla 02-13-05, 08:21 PM	Even ignoring the above-mentioned rule against gaining more than 1 level at a time (which I actually don't use, but I've never given out enough XP for it to be an issue) ... If a bunch of 9th level characters beat a CR 21 Red Dragon, one (or more) of the following conditions must be true: 1. You are the luckiest players in the history of the world. 2. Your DM is the unluckiest DM on the face of the planet. 3. Your DM is named Monty Haul. Unless there was some seriously weird stuff going on ('The prophecy states that only he who wields the mighty Blade of Khontoroa can slay the beast!' 'Cool, I got one of those!'), there is simply no way you should have beaten that dragon. Your DM is being a major pushover/munchkin, I think.
Callista 02-13-05, 08:36 PM	How many characters are in your party? Reason I ask is that one of the games I play in has eight players, and two cohorts on top of that (not to mention an animal compaion, two mounts and a familiar). We're level 3, but consistently beating CR 7 challenges, and higher for LBEG/BBEG fights. This could've been one of those "Easy if played properly" encounters, though, in which case it was probably a CR 15 or so rather than a CR 21. What strategy did your DM use? That dragon should've been roasting you, doing strafing runs, fly-by attacks... how did you save against its fear aura?... Also, dragons of that level have spells to use as well as their special powers; did it use them? My own DM once had us kill a pair of crippled white dragons who could neither fly nor use their breath weapons--they were CR 12-ish; we were level 5-ish... was this something like that? Oh, and--you CAN level multiple times in one session--just not from one kill (or one encounter). And there's nothing to stop DMs from making house rules that allow multiple leveling... though why they would, I don't know; multiple levels gained at a time are a little overwhelming and kind of stretch the "suspension of disbelief" thing a little.
Starmage21 02-13-05, 08:40 PM	Ive leveled like that before, but in a mostly for-fun hack-n-slash diablo-esque campain that involved beating hordes of monsters in groups. Not so munchkiny really, just depends on what kind of game youre playing. I usually gain a level/session in a normal game.
Moon-Lancer 02-13-05, 08:41 PM	is that what the book means? huh... thats cool. I should reread that if this is the case.
Razoreface 02-13-05, 08:44 PM	One level per session thing is a little odd. I've had times where three in a session happened, but they were not three from one set of encounters. Between spots you rest and gain experience, you can only gain one level. The time my group got three, we went through a long series of fights, and sailed away somewhere. Since the voyage lasted a week before anything of note, we all "reflected" (old AD&D stuff) and got xp, all of us were very close to levelling before and the xp put us to around 2/3 the next level. A big fight against saugahin, and three weeks of sailing. More xp, because we had downtime. And again, right after getting to port.. lots of xp, but heavily mauled and hid out for a couple days. But if we'd been level 9's and killed a CR 21 creature.. one level, one xp point below what would have been the second one.
PinkVishnu 02-13-05, 10:33 PM	To answer your questions about how it's even <i> possible </i> for a party of 4 9th level characters to beat a CR 21 dragon, it's a tad complicated. The most important thing is that we got these amazingly powerful "combat symbiotes" (think spider-man's black costume) that gave us some cool abilities, but that was somewhat balanced out by the fact that the Dragon had a similar "symbiote," which most notably gave him SR so my psion couldn't nuke him (faerun, so it's got psionic/magic transparency). Plus, everyone has amazingly good stat rolls, because we have a munchkin in my group so everyone got a boost (I'm not the munchkin, I swear!). Anyhow, now that we're 13th level, we've finished our <i> first </i> adventure. Last time I ran a campaign, the particular adventure was just enough to get them half past level 2. My DM has promised a more traditional dungeon crawl for our next adventure.
Loren Pechtel 02-13-05, 10:45 PM	You aren't a level 9 party--you're equipped far above your level. Note that if his boost is similar to yours that it's a *FAR* bigger advantage to you as you are of lower level. I would say your symbioites must be at least level 15. The XP awards should be adjusted accordingly.
Vanigo 02-13-05, 10:53 PM	I once gained seven levels in a single combat round. Of course, it goes without saying that this was due primarily to DM idiocy.
Salla 02-13-05, 11:00 PM	This definitely sounds like a DM who has fallen into 'must give party kewl lewt' syndrome ... that's so far out there my brain hurts thinking about it.
angryman 02-13-05, 11:00 PM	Aah, the old super level up DM. Lets you fight ubermonsters and then plays them like idiots. "Duh, me dragon. Me do one claw fly-by. Duh." After you beat him, you get far too much xp (instead of dying, as you should) for defeating him. I'd tell the DM it's not fun to go against crazy CR monsters because a) they should win and b) if they don't win, the DM isn't doing his job well and c) if they DO win fairly, then they get too much XP. I like the Star Wars D20 system- one level every four sessions. It makes PCs less meat-headed and stops crazy crap like, "I'm so close to a level! I look for something to kill."
cynical 02-13-05, 11:02 PM	Tell your dm to compair the symbiots to templets of simmiallar power .. then assign yout party the same ecls
Kalanth 02-14-05, 02:43 AM	Clearly this DM is not using the creatures as they should be used, and is simply tossing numbers in front of the party and holding back more than enough to ensure the monster dies. A party of 9th lvl characters should not be beating a CR 21 dragon, unless they are ungodly well equipped with +5 vorpal swords of holy smiting and speed with keen edge. . . am I missing any? And yes, I utilize the rule that says one level per session, because if the session goes long enough, and you ad-lib as much as I tend to do, you end up on a fair number of story based dungeon crawls fighting gods know what and you end with a decent amount of XP.
Heironymus_Vann 02-14-05, 01:59 PM	Why not just play a computer game instead? Ten, twenty levels per "session", no problem. My home campaign where I'm a player I've levels about once per six sessions (88 sessions, 15th level) but there's been tons of detail and "non-class" things going on so it's constantly dynamic - the character has lordships in a couple of lands where he's been recognized as heroic, he's accumulated the favors of a couple of archmages... ie. he's a "character". To me, it's just so much more memorable and fun to have the encounters run "to the hilt", with the monsters using the best tactics they can. When I DM and run an encounter, I view the monster as MY character, and the players know they're in for a challenge... I ran an encounter the other day - the party was high level: 2 clerics (16th and 17th level), 15th level "tank" fighter, 15th level archer, a 17th level druid (actually druid 15/monk2) and one 15th level wizard, and the opponent was one white wyrm (CR19). The party was cloudwalking at about 1000ft. over an icy canyon that pierced a steep mountain range when the dragon attacked from above. The dragon had spotted them in advance (50+ spot check) and had pre-buffed with mage armor, shield, greater invisibility, protection from fire and fire shield (prot. vs. heat version). He stayed out of short-range spell area (to avoid pesky rays), diving through the plane of the party for fly-by runs (sundering the archer's bow on one of these), kept the wizard in a freezing fog as much as possible, and generally made a nuisance of himself. At one point the cleric miracled a forcecage (20x20) but teh dragon disintigrated it... the combat probably lasted 20 rounds at least. No one died, but it was a harrowing (and fun) time. It should be noted the party has total equipment value in line with their levels (maybe 10% over). With dragons in particular, if they're old there's a reason they got that way. When I stat out a dragon, I take a lot of care in thinking about their spell selection, tactics, etc. Plus, it's virtually impossible to "sneak up" on a dragon that's played properly. Okay, this is LONG, but I wrote up a Big Bad dragon (CR 28!) the other day for a "legendary battle" encounter in the future - note that only if the characters are truly ready, having tactics beforehand, gathering as much info as possible (which is hard since a dragon and his lair are nearly unscryable), will they be able to survive and prevail... I offer it as an example of the kind of prep work a DM SHOULD use with such ancient foes as dragons: Gaasyendietha (“Fire Dragon”, or Xipilcoatl (Fire Serpent Noble) in Olman) Gaasyendietha: female great red wyrm of legend; CR 28; Colossal dragon (fire); HD 40d12+720, hp 980; Init +9; Spd 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy); AC 55 (-8 size, +5 dex, +44 natural, +4 mage armor), touch 7, flat-footed 46; Base Attack/Grapple +40/+82; Atk +63 melee (6d8+30, bite) and +56 melee (6d6+12, 2 claws) and +56 melee (3d8+12, 2 wings) and +56 melee (6d6+37, tail slap); Face/Reach 30ft./20 ft (30ft. bite); SA breath weapon (70 ft. cone of fire), crush 6d8+37, frightful presence, spell-like abilities, spells, tail sweep 4d8+37, greater damage; SQ blindsense (60 ft.), DR 20/magic, fire subtype, immunities, keen senses, fast healing 5, SR 32; AL CE; SV Fort +44, Ref +31, Will +38; Str 60, Dex 21, Con 46, Int 33, Wis 34, Cha 35. Skills and Feats: Appraise +55, Bluff +56, Climb +26, Concentration +62, Diplomacy +19, Escape Artist +49, Intimidate +58, Jump +75, Knowledge (Arcana) +49, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +45, Knowledge (Geography) +17, Knowledge (History) +45, Knowledge (Local) +17, Knowledge (Nature) +45, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) +17, Knowledge (Religion) +45; Knowledge (The Planes) +45, Listen +58, Search +55, Sense Motive +56, Spellcraft +34, Spot +58, Tumble +29; Alertness, Arcane Strike, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Brute, Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Great Cleave, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Widen Spell, Wingover Breath Weapon (Su): Gaasyendietha can breathe a 70-foot cone of fire that deals 24d10 points of fire damage (Reflex DC 48 half). Once he has used his breath weapon, he must wait 1d4 rounds before doing so again. Crush: When flying or jumping, Gaasyendietha can land on Huge or smaller opponents as a standard action, using his whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under Gaasyendietha's body. Each potentially affected creature must make a Reflex save (DC 48) or be pinned, automatically taking 6d8+37 points of bludgeoning damage that round and every round thereafter that Gaasyendietha maintains the pin (treat his attempts to maintain the pin as normal grapple attacks; grapple bonus +81). Frightful Presence (Su): This ability takes effect automatically when Gaasyendietha attacks, charges, or flies overhead. It affects only opponents with 34 or fewer Hit Dice or levels within a radius of 360 feet. Each affected creature must make a successful Will save (DC 42) to resist the effect. On a failure, a creature with 5 or more Hit Dice or levels becomes shaken for 4d6 rounds, and a creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice or levels becomes panicked for 4d6 rounds. Success indicates that the target is immune to Gaasyendietha’s frightful presence for one day. Spell-Like Abilities: 12/day -- locate object; 3/day -- suggestion; 1/day -- find the path. Caster level 20th; save DC 22 + spell level. Spells: Gaasyendietha casts spells as a 19th-level sorcerer. Tail Sweep: Gaasyendietha can sweep with his tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half circle with a diameter of 80 feet, centered on his rear. Every Medium or smaller creature within the swept area takes 4d8+37 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 48 half). Blindsense (Ex): Gaasyendietha can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60ft. Fire Subtype: Gaasyendietha is immune to fire damage, but he takes 1 ½ times damage from cold unless a saving throw for half damage is allowed, in which case he takes half damage on a success and 1.5x damage on a failure. Immunities: Gaasyendietha is immune to fire, sleep, and paralysis effects. Keen Senses (Ex): Gaasyendietha has darkvision (120-foot range) and low-light vision (can see four times as far as a human in low-light conditions and twice as far in normal light). Fast Healing (Ex): Gaasyendietha, as a Dragon of Legend, has heals 5hp damage per round (this is not regeneration, so it does not reattach limbs) Greater Damage (Ex): As a Dragon of Legend, Gaasyendietha’s damage increases one die type (reflected in stat block) Sorcerer Spells Known* (6/9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/5; caster level 20th, base DC = 22 + spell level):0 -- arcane mark, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic; 1st – charm person, expeditious retreat, mage armor, shield, true strike; 2nd -- darkness, detect thoughts, fog cloud, see invisibility, spider climb; 3rd -- fireball, haste, protection from energy, slow; 4th -- arcane eye, greater invisibility, scrying, stoneskin; 5th – cone of cold, fire shield, wall of stone, true seeing; 6th – chain lightning, globe of invulnerability, greater dispel magic; 7th – greater teleport, limited wish, spell turning; 8th – greater prying eyes, greater spell immunity, polar ray; 9th – foresight, wish. Permanent Spell Effects – Arcane Sight (Widened); Greater Magic Fang (bite +5); See Invisibility; Tongues Contingency (via Wish) – globe of invulnerability cast upon Foresight warning Daily Pre-cast Spells: 1st – Mage Armor; 8th – greater prying eyes; 9th – wish (mind blank); foresight Magic Items: Gem of Heavy Fortification (embedded in forehead; immunity to critical hits); Chaos Diamond (embedded in chest); Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone (reflected in stat block); Orange Prism Ioun Stone (reflected in stat block); Ring of Freedom of Movement; Ring of Spell Storing (Death Ward) Tactics: Gaasyendietha almost invariably has advance notice of attackers (when the greater prying eyes report intruders, she uses arcane eye and scry to determine their strength, etc. and prepares accordingly) and typically prepares for battle as follows: Summon nalfashnee (via limited wish (magic circle) and wish (greater planar binding)) with orders to cast unholy aura on her and attack the intruders with greater dispel magic. In cases of great potential danger, an additional limited wish might be used to reduce a pit fiend’s save and summon one of those, instead, but this is very rare. Additional long-term buff spells will be cast in this order – greater spell immunity (based on observation of intruders, but typically cold evocation spells or spells impairing movement); spell turning; protection from cold; stoneskin Right before engagement, minutes-long buffs will be cast –true seeing; greater invisibility; shield Finally, upon enemy sighting, Gaasyendietha casts fire shield, haste, then true strike before initiating melee combat (in conjunction with a full power attack and arcane strike for a devastating blow, focusing on a weaker-looking opponent so that she can cleave); note that typically she attacks with spells to soften attackers first! HV
Jell_Moo 02-14-05, 02:17 PM	Just so you know, a 9th level party gets no XP from killing a CR 21 Dragon. Look at the chart on page 38 of the DMG. :D
Board_Rider 02-14-05, 02:18 PM	Everyone has pretty muched summed up what my opinion on this would be, so I won't add to that. But what did the symbiot thingy give you guys and the dragon?
Shaitan0.2beta 02-14-05, 02:37 PM	Btw, level 1 parties (ECL barely 2 if you give 'em some money to begin with but not enough for magic items or full plate) can beat CR 4,5,6 witouth much effort. All it takes is a barbarian with good stats, and a greatsword.
Delfedd 02-14-05, 03:16 PM	What equipment do you have? what ability scores do you guys have? i had a DM that said we could have basicly any ability score under 24 and over 13. He'd never check our rolls, and pretty soon we figured out we could say we rolled three twentys in a row. :confused: It got boring fast.
Heironymus_Vann 02-14-05, 03:44 PM	It would be boring to me, but I guess we are all looing for different kinds of things in play - I think maturity issues are a big aspect as well; I know when I was a kid I had a tendency to be more "monty haul" versus now where things are more "narritive oriented" and tactically challenging. But, there are just different player styles - to use the "Diablo" example, I was one of those players who never cheated, only wanted to play with "legit" groups, etc... I never enjoyed using the trainers or getting Kings Swords etc. at first level. Me? I'd rather earn stuff. And "cheese" is fine if it corresponds to the rules - I'm the first to admit I have a PC with three levels of Holy Liberator and one of Templar! Monty Haul isn't about cheese, its just about flat playing poorly, and I just don't find it holds my attention very long. HV
Thoronmir 02-14-05, 04:31 PM	It would be boring to me, but I guess we are all looking for different kinds of things in play - I think maturity issues are a big aspect as well; I know when I was a kid I had a tendency to be more "monty haul" versus now where things are more "narritive oriented" and tactically challenging.Absolutely. I've always considered the "Monty Haul" phase to be like the measles ... you usually catch it when you're young and, if you survive, you're immune the rest of your life. I think many players eventually reach the realization that their characters can be more than just a set of stats and Bag-of-Holding full of "l33t" gear. As for the DM, he's evidencing a disturbing tendency: confront the PCs with an overly powerful enemy, but give the PCs equally over-powered equipment with which to battle the beast. Rather than focus on challenges that are appropriate to the PCs' levels, the DM ramps up the bad guys and, to avoid TPKs, hands out magical artifacts like candy. Eventually, the PCs become subsumed by their possessions … in this case, the symbiotes. No longer are you “Harvey the stalwart Fighter”; you become “Harvey, the guy who totes around this living suit that has more abilities and powers than poor old Harvey could ever hope to get.” As for how often your group levels, there’s no way you’d maintain that pace in my game. First, as other responses have suggested, if you’re getting that much XP per session, either something is amiss in how your DM runs the challenges or a single one of your “sessions” lasts about five days. I feel less indulgent since my players usually only level every three to five sessions. Personally, if I leveled at your pace, I’d feel cheated out of the experience of watching my PC mature. However, I realize that my opinion is that of someone who spends more time mulling over his character’s psychology than his inventory. If the players in your game enjoy the DM’s style, then I’d say relax and have fun with it.
CuttinCurt 02-14-05, 04:56 PM	well, I can not even begin to wonder how it was done, even if you were given special "thingys" to make you more powerful. A cr21 dragon has a massive DR against physical attacks, a massive SR against spells, which at 9th level, your spells should have bounced off this guy without harming him at all, or if you did manage to get one through by rolling a 20, then the other protections and saves weakened the spell to where it dealt no damage. HP: usually equal in the 400's, ac is in the 30's if not close to 40, and the breath weapon is beyond real for 9th level characters. One breath should have killed you even when you saved, even if it was a red dragon and you had rings of major fire resistance on all your characters. I will not begin to go into every single possibility, but a cr21 dragon is the opitome of all creatures on Faerun, it should be able to take on 4 lvl 21 characters, (Thats epic characters) and have a 50% chance or so of TPK. I am not mad or upset with you, dm's are all different. But in this forum you will not get any golf claps. Your slaying of the collosal cr21 dragon that kills most heros far stronger than your 9th level group is tainted. A dragon of this size kills most heroes by simply stepping on them, or breathing once on them. You shouldnt have the money or been able to defeat the crits that would have the equipment to protect yourself from a creature of this size and strength. Think about it. There is a wealth chart in the DMG of an approximate value a character of 9thlevel should have. I figure your stuff is atleast 7x-10x the value of that chart. This is wrong. If you think your campaign is normal, then fantastic. Keep going on to achieve great things. But know that if you move or find another dm group, this will probably come to an abrupt end. I tell you this as a person who has played and dm'd for over 20 years. A group of 9th level characters should be fighting (juvinile) to (mature adult) dragons at the highest, and also depending on the race of dragon. And those give great challenges. Well, to almost any normal group.......... CC
Elendur 02-14-05, 05:34 PM	It's not clear if the original poster is happy or sad about his quadruple level-up. If he's having fun, then great, let the good times roll. If he feels cheated that the levels came so easily, he needs to talk to the DM. It may be the DM is appeasing the munchin of the group. When I first starting playing D&D I was about 12. We didn't understand the rules that well. We would just start picking monsters, items and spells from the books and start rolling dice. Then we moved to recreating fantasy novel characters(From the Belgariad and Shannara, Drizzt and friends hadn't been published yet) and killing off Gods. I think at one point I had Belgarath using the Elfstones to kill off Zeus or something. This was all great fun, but as I got older I began to appreciate the satisfaction of earning something long sought after and hard fought for. I now enjoy leveling once every 3 or 4 sessions, ability scores that have negative modifiers, and hit point rolls below 4. Everyone has different styles of playing, but if you're worried about skyrocketing powerlevels, you probably have a valid concern.
PinkVishnu 02-14-05, 10:33 PM	Wow, look at all those responses! Yay! Alright, to answer all of those symbiote questions, they were pretty much the only equipment we had, and their abilities had a limited number of charges. We had to use up around half of them just to hit the thing. After the adventure, my DM asked us what we thought of the suits, we said we hated them and would rather fight monsters of our own CR. So, next adventure we're doing a more typical campaign. As to overcoming the dragon itself, the fact that it was cold-vulnerable made it so my empowered cold energy balls did insane amounts of damage. As to DR, we had +1 weapons, and in 3.5 they have DR 15/magic. I overcame its SR (only once) rolling a 17 and using up most of my symbiote's power. The rest of my symbiote's charges were used up surviving its breath weapon (which nearly killed us all). Finally, to address the XP issues, I used the "CR goes up by two every time you double the monsters' numbers" rule, and calculated XP for fighting 8 CR 15 monsters. I also added that to the XP from the three Efreet we fought earlier (I killed them all in 1 round w/ an empowered cold ball). Sorry for the lengthy post, keep those responses coming!
green_yawgmoth 02-14-05, 10:51 PM	Maybe your DM just got the ELH, and wants to try it out soon. I know that's what happened with my DM. "Hey, you guys wanna just take another 3 levels?" "Yes. yes we do. *Erase erase scribble scribble*" http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
kam_Islash 02-14-05, 10:54 PM	Hmm..funny, my DM makes all treasures and encounters at a random dice roll, and if a monster drops any "key" items he makes it up on the fly. Example, one time we rolled for wondrous items (i think) and we got one of those mirrors in which you can imprison people. Inside was a wizard who knew the information we came to that god forsaken castle to get. He's pretty good at coming up with plot devices on the spot. ///
Loren Pechtel 02-15-05, 12:16 AM	With dragons in particular, if they're old there's a reason they got that way. When I stat out a dragon, I take a lot of care in thinking about their spell selection, tactics, etc. Plus, it's virtually impossible to "sneak up" on a dragon that's played properly. I did it once. A bunch of disintigrates, walls of stone and stone shapes. When everything was ready I brought a big piece of roof down on the wyrm's head by dispelling a wall of stone (1E--you could.) The wyrm never spotted me because I never was in the same room with him until he was dead. (Note: 1E--no blindsense. He couldn't see me through the rock.) The few cuts through the cave roof were made when he was out and they were quickly filled in.
Minos_Vol 02-15-05, 02:48 AM	SWEET ANGRY JESUS!!! ya know... if you've got too much experiance, you could always send some my way.... 9th lvl spells here I come!!!! but seriously, if your DM allows it, just go for it and level up four times! then wail on everything else he sends your way faster to make room for quality role playing!but I have to ask: how many out of your group died?
Derren S. 02-15-05, 04:10 AM	Seems your DM is not much into tactic, or killing players, or playing monsters with even half efficency. A red dragon would have killed you long before your cold balls even scratched it. 9w6 damge per ball isn't insane (I assume 1w6 damage/caster level * 2 for vulnerability and empower /2 because the dragon makes the save). That means on average 31 damage per spell, not counting the cold resistences a "not moronic" played dragon would have casted. Did the dragon even attack you once? Or cast a spell? The only way you all lived through it would be when the dragon just sat there and did nothing the whole time. Well, if you like such an diablo like game where the DM plays the mosters so weak that you can defeat them regardles of level then have fun. I wouldn't like it. PS: A question. When you say cold ball, do you mean a energy substitued fireball or one of those new CA energy conjuration spells?
PinkVishnu 02-15-05, 10:00 AM	Questions, questions, questions. Well, I shall answer them all, in no particular order. Maybe your DM just got the ELH, and wants to try it out soon. I know that's what happened with my DM. "Hey, you guys wanna just take another 3 levels?" "Yes. yes we do. *Erase erase scribble scribble*" I'm playing another campaign with the same DM, where we have two EL characters. But yes, the other players asked him that same question. He just laughed diabolically. but I have to ask: how many out of your group died? None of us died in that particular encounter, because our stupid combat symbiotes protected us from much of the Dragon's breath weapon. However, my character would have been killed had she not been an elan, and our VoP monk was dropped below zero (which he always does). One character has died before, but that was because he wanted to try a new character. PS: A question. When you say cold ball, do you mean a energy substitued fireball or one of those new CA energy conjuration spells? For the perhaps third time, I'm a psion (kineticist). For the second time, my cold ball was a cold Energy Ball from the XPH. As for how much damage it did, my combat symbiote (yes, the most OP item in existence, our party hated them as much as you do) granted me a +2 on my ML. Can't believe I convinced my DM to do that. Added to the fact that my cold Energy Ball was Empowered, it did 13d6+13 points of cold damage.
Derren S. 02-15-05, 11:12 AM	For the perhaps third time, I'm a psion (kineticist). For the second time, my cold ball was a cold Energy Ball from the XPH. As for how much damage it did, my combat symbiote (yes, the most OP item in existence, our party hated them as much as you do) granted me a +2 on my ML. Can't believe I convinced my DM to do that. Added to the fact that my cold Energy Ball was Empowered, it did 13d6+13 points of cold damage. 7w6 base+2w6 agumentation+9*2 = 18w6+18, halfed because the dragon will make his fort save = 9w6+9 and you have to penetrate SR. Still, nothing which would pose a threat to the dragon. Why didn't he cast protection from energy cold or use his symbiote to cancel this damage. You can't hit him with melee weapons anyway because of teh AC. The dragon must be really be played stupidly (or your symbiotes much more powerful than you make us believe). There is no other way that you would kill the dragon without losses.
Kaboth 02-15-05, 11:14 AM	To answer your questions about how it's even <i> possible </i> for a party of 4 9th level characters to beat a CR 21 dragon, it's a tad complicated. The most important thing is that we got these amazingly powerful "combat symbiotes" (think spider-man's black costume) that gave us some cool abilities, but that was somewhat balanced out by the fact that the Dragon had a similar "symbiote," which most notably gave him SR so my psion couldn't nuke him (faerun, so it's got psionic/magic transparency). Plus, everyone has amazingly good stat rolls, because we have a munchkin in my group so everyone got a boost (I'm not the munchkin, I swear!). Anyhow, now that we're 13th level, we've finished our <i> first </i> adventure. Last time I ran a campaign, the particular adventure was just enough to get them half past level 2. My DM has promised a more traditional dungeon crawl for our next adventure. Okay so you got a weird campaign going on that boosts your powers fine.. Sorry if someone else has already said this, as this is about as far as I got... You DM needs to learn the rules and needs to learn to read. The CR values of opponents are not set in stone. Those vaule are set for typical and average party members. That means average equipement. Do you honestly think that you "earned" that much xp? Some fo your party members should have been kentucky fried chicken. To quote a movie... "*cough* BS *cough* BS " But hey its yalls campaign, what ever floats your boat.
grishenko 02-15-05, 11:30 AM	OK. A CR21 Red Dragon - that is a 28 hit die Old Dragon. You did 13d6+13 damage. If you rolled a 6 on ALL d6 that night you would deal 68 points of damage with each "cold ball" (the dragon made the reflex save seeing so that he has +16 and the cold ball did 50% more damage because he is vulnerable to cold - and the stupid dragon didn't cast any resist spells). Well, the Old Red Dragon in question has 378 hit points so he can handle 6 such cold balls. (Note that I for the sake of argument said that you rolled a 6 on each and every one of those d6 rolls.) So, what SHOULD the Dragon have done in those 6 rounds. Charges you in the first round, then full attacks you in five rounds. That means that he has bitten you 6 times for 4d6+12 damage, hit you with either of his claws 10 times 2d8+6 damage, hit you with his wings for a total of 10 times for 2d6+6 damage and slapped your silly behind 5 times with his tail for 2d8+18 damage each (he has +31 to hit all secondary attacks even if he hasn't taken multiattack)... Again for the sake av argument; if he rolled a ONE on each and every hit he gave you 356 points of damage! (Now, this is probably one of the least "smart" ways to play a red dragon when he has so many other options...) Question: How much damage reduction does those bloody suits grant you? :mad:
Damien_Hiro 02-15-05, 11:47 AM	It is a little wierd for a group to advance like that. We play by the book and gain a level about every fourth session. That is defeating four encounters of our challenge rating each session. We sometime jump faster or slower if the CR are higher or lower than our party. I used to DM monty haul, when I first started, but never four levels, and if you are having a lot of fun, then more power to you. I hope you have a great time playing. It is more important to have fun than being bored and having a terible time with your hobby.
MoogleEmpMog 02-15-05, 12:32 PM	I tend to level PCs once per session, assuming they accomplish some sort of major goal. However, I wouldn't exactly call it monty haul, since I give out essentially no magic treasure, play their (equivalently-levelled) enemies to the hilt, and set up the world so that high or (in D&D terms) "Epic" level characters are fairly common. It's simply a matter of changing from base-20 levels to base-40+. However, that doesn't sound like what's going on here. ;)
Gurthoron 02-15-05, 01:09 PM	I had a similar event in which we levelled up several times in one encounter. We were level 21 (ish) but all had something special that would be a decent LA. We went up against a literal army of Drow, including a half dozen characters of similar levels, groups of elites, etc. This long, painful battle resulted in me dieing twice (and coming back, thanks to revivify) and the half-celestial dieing once. However, we pretty much slaughtered the entire army and gained three or four levels off of it. (By DM call, not xp) I do not know whether we would gain as much going by xp, mainly due to the vast majority of those we killed were too low of an level to count. However, I believe you should get xp no matter what the level difference, just at insanely reduced levels.
Elendur 02-15-05, 01:25 PM	Just one rules note, the EL goes up 2 for twice as many monsters, not the CR. The EL, encounter level, is just used by the DM for planning encounters. So 2 CR 8 monsters is an EL 10 encounter, but it gives CR 8 times 2 xp.
Nitneuq Onitnarat 02-15-05, 08:19 PM	In the first game I DMed (all of us where first time D&D, or any other table-top RPG) I was handing out exp without dividing by the number of members in the party (7), so people leveled up very fast. next adventure when I got exp sorted out I started writing encounters in advance, knowing that the PC's would level up just in time so that they would be ready for the massive attack on their town. unfortunatly i made them exactly next level, not 1exp above, and the wizard, who had recently discovered spell scrolls, desperatly started looking around for rats to step on. I decided that him being behind for a major battle like this should stand as a lesson to him not to over-use scrolls (or anything else thats going to sap exp) so when he continued to search even after being told OOC not to I just let him find a rat. a half feind paragonic rat with 8 levels of barbarian :devil:.
Starmage21 02-15-05, 08:54 PM	Do you remember the Dragon Mountain adventure? The one with thousands of Kobolds assailing the party members from advantageous positions. That was intended for high level party members in 2e, and it was damn dangerous. When you fight hordes of lesser creatures like that, you will actually earn xp. Kobolds are CR 1/3 or 1/4, that means you have to fight 4 at the same time to get CR1 experience. Add 4 more, and you get a CR3, add 8 more and you get a EL5 encounter (and experience as if you faced 1 CR 5 creature), and every time you double the number, increase the EL of the encounter by 2. Eventually, if youre fighting that many Kobolds at the same time, you will gain experience.
green_yawgmoth 02-15-05, 09:14 PM	you cant actualy level 4 times in one session. you stop gaining exp. you would level then the ep it would take to level agean but you wont. its written some were that you can only level once per a session. forget were. This is merely a suggestion, not a rule. What if your party is really close to levelling, and for some reason the session lasts a lot longer than you expect, or they kill something you didn't think they'd be able to? Say "sorry guys, but killing that dragon would make you level up again tonight, and the book won't let me"? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Lord Schpungus 02-15-05, 11:31 PM	How's that for level progression?? Awesome. Recently I leveled up 7 levels by not even showing up to the game (Bad GM, wacky anything-goes type, it won't last another session, I hope). If you're having fun, don't let the boards tell you that multi-leveling is impossible. Fun is all that matters. (*Everyone's fun, to an extent, that is)
Cobalt Shiva 03-10-05, 07:29 AM	Hypothetically, we could say I was the DM running this session. Also hypothetically, we could see I might want to explain my rationale for this ridiculous number of level-ups. First: the four level-ups were not from this one dragon alone. They combined the dragon, a handful of efreet, and a mighty load of story awards (including surviving a fall from nearly ten-thousand feet, and completing a nasty puzzle that nearly caused a TPK, to name a few.) Second: I did not in any way fail to play this dragon 'to the hilt.' It cast most of its spells - including Protection from Cold, which was interrupted by a readied attack and failed thanks to some poor rolling on my part - used flyby attacks, and breathed whenever possible, even going so far as to target spellcasters. What you have to understand is that these are very powerful PCs, especially with the hated combat symbiotes (those were one-shot items which they lost as soon as they left this particular dungeon.) I compensated for this in giving them XP - although I didn't reduce the payoutas much as I should have, I admit. The dungeon that culminated in this encounter was very...non-traditional, and incorporated a lot of ideas that I was trying out for the first time. Some worked, some didn't. Oh, and on the combat symbiotes: they basically had a power reserve which could be used to boost saves, attack rolls, and so on - within reasonable limits. This is a stunningly powerful ability, but the combat symbiotes were their ONLY items, and many of the monsters they faced had similar kinds of items. Lastly, thanks to hazardous conditions in the dungeon - which was a series of interconnected globes of force drifting inside a lava chamber - if their combat symbiote's magical power ran out, they would die. At the end of the final combat, every character was down to one point of power in their suits, less than ten hitpoints, and nearly-exhaused daily abilities. One of them was even feebleminded. The encounter wasn't exactly easy, but they played it well, used distractions to keep the dragon away from wounded party members, and so on. Lastly: I never intended them to kill the dragon. There were four 'control panels' scattered around this dungeon room that had to be activated; I planned to have the PCs scrambling to switch them on while dodging attacks from the dragon, then make their escape. Things didn't quite work out that way. All these factors considered, I won't say that four level-ups isn't ridiculous. Remember, however, that those level-ups included story awards for an entire 13th-level adventure, practically its own campaign. The dragon probably contributed to only one or two of those up-levels (per the rule that you can only gain maximum one level per encounter.) Oh, and after surviving the CR 21 dragon and escaping the dungeon with his shiny new four levels, one of our characters (a half-giant fighter) went for a walk in the jungle, got stuck in quicksand, and was mauled to death by a hydra. So you can't say I'm not willing to kill PCs in unusually brutal ways. All that said, I'm going to be ramping down CRs in the future. I do find, though, that at epic levels, characters are increasingly able to handle CRs way over their head (say, four brachyuruses and an epic wizard at level 28.) Any questions?
Derren S. 03-10-05, 09:07 AM	So the dragon only had one protection from cold? (Why not immunity to cold?) He casted all of his spells? One Blashphemy and the party is dead, so why didn't the dragon do this? There is simply no way except a very poorly played dragon that some Lvl 9 characters would be able to kill it, especially after expending ressources on its minnions. A single full attack on one character and he would have been killed. The dragon could grapple a character and there would be no defense against that. What about crush? A single well placed crush attack and it would have been a TPK. So you played the dragon poorly and/or gave the PCs insane items. Nothing to brag about and it certainly isn't worth much XP. When you want to convince me (and probably some others who read this) that this combat was played well you have to post the combat, the tactics of your players and how the dragon reacted to them and what exact abilities the symbiots had.
CuttinCurt 03-10-05, 12:16 PM	I agree with the above statement. There is no way a lvl 9 group, suits and all, could defeat a cr 21 dragon. As I mentioned before, the defense on the beast would be in the 40's for AC, well beyond the ability of a 10th level group to hit. Lets look at a simple CR21 Red Dragon Basic model out of the MM1 3.5version page 75&76. Simple enough, Age: Very Old Size: Gargantuan HP: (Avg) 449 STR: 37 DEX: 10 CON: 27 INT: 22 WIS: 23 CHA: 22 AC: 36 BASE ATTACK/GRAPPLE: +31/+56 Attack: +40 Fort Save: +25 Ref Save: +17 Will Save: +23 Breath Weapon: 18d10 with a DC of 33 for save. Frightful Presence: DC 31 DR 15/Magic Caster level: 13 SR: 26 And you are telling an educated community that they were somehow able to hit this guy physically and get spells through its Spell Resistance. SR26! Which means that the 9th level casters needed to roll a 17 consistantly to bypass it. Then -15 physical damage, and with a 13th level casting ability, there should have been no way these guys touched it. Just its casting was more than enough for the group, and he should have taken out atleast one or two just casting spells at them from a distance. But, there is a basic red dragon CR21 on page 77 of the MM1 ver3.5. I look at that and I laugh to myself at the notion that a 9th level group did anything to this guy. AC36... hmmm, even with a +16 to hit, which is about right for a lvl 9 fighter on its first attack, that means he needs a 20 to hit it at all. And dont tell me that this 9th level group with maybe 2 fighters in it have the ability to hit ac 36 continuously. I am sorry, this reeks of stupidity by a dm that cant run a dragon. I am sure 99.9% of sensible people who play this game would agree. CC
Kaboth 03-10-05, 06:44 PM	As much as hate to agree, but Derren S. is right. I agree with the other posters that was a Monty Haul fight. I should also add, if your group is having fun, have at it. No one should detract you from your fun.
Roguemaster39 03-10-05, 07:10 PM	This is totally ridiculous. Leveling up one level per session is a little out of hand let alone 7 levels! I just finished a campaign where we played 15 sessions (minimum of 2 and a half hours per session) and only hit level 4! You and your friends need to rething the way your playing this game, you have to be playing for a like at least 1 hour and fighting for about 98% of the time! If your just playing this game to fight things and level up then you might as well just roll dice in your back yard and see who gets the bigger number, it would be just as fun. In my perspective the point of D&D is basically to invent you own RPG. In which you Roleplay, Develope character traits, discover interesting plot lines and twists the DM planned out, and lastly engage in meaningful battles in which you might try to outwitt your enemies rather than out muscle them. I know our two DMs hand out more XP to us if we think out and plan for a battle rather than just rush in and kill things. Well that was my outlook on your post.
HomebrewedMonster 03-10-05, 08:00 PM	WHAM!!! *Dig**Dig**Dig*
Zariell 03-11-05, 03:29 AM	Oh, and on the combat symbiotes: they basically had a power reserve which could be used to boost saves, attack rolls, and so on - within reasonable limits. This is a stunningly powerful ability, but the combat symbiotes were their ONLY items, and many of the monsters they faced had similar kinds of items. Lastly, thanks to hazardous conditions in the dungeon - which was a series of interconnected globes of force drifting inside a lava chamber - if their combat symbiote's magical power ran out, they would die. I don't consider making the following saves at level 9 anywhere near reasonable, even if they had an aparent artifact power magical item. Breath: DC 33 (Which, I might add, only saves for half of the 18d10 fire damage, that would have been inside of a cone.) Fightful presence: DC 29 (Which is a 270 ft radius mind you) Crush: Anything in a 20x20 area must save a DC 33 reflex save or be automatically pinned (versus a +56 graple). During the next round and each round there after there going to take 3d6+19 damage. Spell Resistance: DC 26 Damage Reduction: 15/magic AC: 36 I would have also given it plenty of invisibity, haste, and dispell magic spells. Circle of death, and anti magic field, dominate person, and teleport. Its simply not logical for any level 9 characters to defeat a Very old Red Dragon that isn't significantly wounded or completely exhausted of spells. I seriously doubt that a standard party would even be able to TOUCH this thing better yet kill it. Even in the event that this would have happened, the draogn would have simply teleported away. Second: I did not in any way fail to play this dragon 'to the hilt.' It cast most of its spells - including Protection from Cold, which was interrupted by a readied attack and failed thanks to some poor rolling on my part - used flyby attacks, and breathed whenever possible, even going so far as to target spellcasters. My friend, if you actually did this and used the listed D.C's. Your level 9 party would have been dead before the fight even began.
Cobalt Shiva 03-11-05, 07:41 AM	I am entirely aware of all the spells and abilities that you listed, and I understand that they would crush a typical level nine party. However, most of them have saves. The combat symbiotes allowed the players to boost their saves and attack rolls enormously for short periods of time, but it drained their symbiote power - remember, if the suit power ran out, they died. Also, the PCs spent a lot of their time hiding in corners. Since the architecture in this place was made entirely of walls of force, they were able to discover a few nooks and crannies the dragon couldn't reach into. Of course, they had to leave as soon as its breath weapon recharged. There are a number of spells the dragon could have employed to kill it, but many of my PCs were readying actions to hit it with everything they had as soon as it started spellcasting. If I recall correctly, the round-by-round tactics were something like this: Round 1. Three PCs beat the dragon on initiative, one went after it. (I rolled very poorly.) All the fighters worried about DR, but the suits made their weapons count as magic (reasonable, since ninth-level characters typically have magic weapons.) The samurai performed some kind of banzai charge (don't know much about Oriental Adventures) and stabbed it, beating its AC by one point AFTER some suit enhancement. He did a considerable amount of damage via a critical (rolled a 19, if I remember correctly.) The psion manifested a cold ball. This was the first place I could have made a mistake. I ruled that the dragon was flat-footed and didn't get a reflex save; it seemed to make sense, but I'm not sure if the rules back me up on that one. This meant the dragon took 150% damage from the coldball, although the psion only barely made the SR check. Then she (PinkVishnu is male in life, but he plays a female) scrambled behind a wall of force for cover. Our monk, who has a ridiculous AC thanks to the Vow of Poverty feat, sprinted around behind the still-flat footed dragon and attacked it with everything he had. He hit once, I think, doing nothing significant. The dragon saved against his stunning fist but failed a roll against some poison ability provided by Vow of Poverty. The dragon had lost around 100 HP by now. It breathed, catching the samurai and our half-giant fighter in the cone. I had a ton of fun rolling double-fistfuls of d10s, but I made the commit suit power before rolling damage; they splurged most of their remaining suit energy to amp up their reflex saves. They were still badly burned (the samurai has an astounding number of HPs, I'm sure he cheats on his HD rolls.) Our half-giant took a swing at the dragon, wasting more suit power to amp up his attack rolls; he damaged it considerably but was now down to very little power and thus near death. My memory gets a little fuzzy after this. The psion kept throwing coldballs; the dragon had an SR aura which it activated on its next turn, making it just about immune to that kind of attack. The samurai and the monk readied attack actions for spellcasting. The dragon performed a full-attack on the monk, missing a surprising amount of the time but still nearly killing him. It then took to the air, wasting two PC's readied actions. The giant shot it up a bit with some kind of gigantic crossbow he got from a book I don't have (no, it's not third-party), missing pathetically. The dragon activated its SR aura. From this point on, it was chaos. The area they were fighting in was very confined; the dragon kept having to perform wingovers to avoid slamming into the walls. It swooped around, trying to grab a PC and cast spells. It actually did cast Blasphemy, but the giant hit it with a readied-action attack and managed to disrupt it (I rolled poorly.) Then it got disrupted again casting Heal. I was getting a little annoyed at this point. I launched the dragon into a series of fairly effective attacks, using just about every powerful spell and feat at its disposal. I think I even had it using quickened spells, which is illegal since it casts as a sorceror. The monk would have died except for his wholeness of body ability; the samurai and giant now had 1 point of suit power. The psion hadn't been targeted, since the dragon was confident in its SR aura. Meanwhile, the psion had been scrambling around, activating the control-panel gadgets scattered around this chamber. (This was part of the adventure plot, which I won't bother going into.) Still, she'd been a lifesaver - the dragon had been about to chase down and kill the samurai when she telekinetic thrusted him to the other side of the chamber, frustrating the dragon. The dragon feebleminded our monk, grabbed the samurai with a flyby snatch, and began tearing him to shreds. Things looked bleak when the psion managed to activate the final control panel. You'll recall that I said the dungeon was a series of globes of force floating inside a lava chamber. The lava chamber was right beneath a volcano. Turning on all the 'control switches' in this chamber was the PC's objective; one of the side effects was that it triggered the volcano. The entire dungeon was blown out of the volcano; those of you familiar with volcanology may know that powerful blasts can blow rock into the stratosphere. The sphere they were in only went up a few thousand feet, but the acceleration pinned everyone to the floor, dragon included. Somehow, my samurai, who'd landed on top of the dragon, managed to hit it (rolled a 20, I think.) The other PCs followed up by continuing to chip away at its remaining HP (not so high after that fall) with ranged attacks from behind cover. I was more than a little astounded when I finished adding the damage numbers up. I'll admit: the dragon was already dead, but I pulled a DM deus ex and kept it alive long enough to wreak a little more havoc. Finally I had to admit it had gone down. Summary: the suits were a lot more powerful than I thought, but on the other hand, the PCs had shown a level of tactical skill I hadn't seen before. Readying attacks, using cover, and exploiting its cold subtype allowed them to defeat it; defensively, they were basically guaranteed success on their first few saves, but were on their own after that. [I should note that the monk got breathed on a few times, but used his Evasion ability to good effect. DC 33 apparently isn't all that tough for him.] I reduced their XP considerably for the suit's presence. In fact, they only gained two levels with the XP values I first calculated, and this was with several other monsters and GIANT story awards added in. Later that night, PinkVishnu - the psion, and the one who STARTED this thread - called me and told me we should be gaining FOUR levels. I took him at his word, since he's a rules stickler and wouldn't cheat on something like that. If you think I should have done anything tactically different with the dragon, tell me. If you spot a glaring weakness in my round-by-round description, remember that this happened two weeks ago and my memory isn't perfect. Lastly: I have found, in my experience as a DM, that PCs are a lot more powerful than people give them credit for. They're ingenious enough, and equipped with such a diverse array of abilities, that they often manage to survive seemingly-impossible situations. For example, the rules say there is no WAY that a 5th-level wizard can defeat a stone golem; it's simply infeasible. Yet I've managed to do so, without party support; my lone wizard was able to lure it to the edge of a cliff and shove it off. Should I have received full XP? Some DMs would say those were unusual circumstances - the presence of the cliff made things too easy. But resourcefulness and ingenuity, in my mind, are just as worthy of XP awards as rolling attacks and casting spells. They allow the player to submerge himself in the world even when he's in combat, rather than seeing it as dictated by the mechanics of dice-rolling. I think the players had fun, I think I followed the rules very well - I am certain I played the dragon to the best of my ability - and I think PinkVishnu can vouch for me that this campaign is certainly not as horrendous as you folks seem to be making it out to be. As for those of you who say I must be running a high-action, low-roleplaying campaign: perhaps. But I'm also running a deep-immersion Frostburn campaign with PinkVishnu and another player, one in which roleplaying has been far more important than combat. I'd like to hear his comments on that campaign posted hear. Perhaps I can redeem my reputation as a DM. God, that was a lot of writing.
Derren S. 03-11-05, 03:51 PM	That were not good tactics, it was alone their ridiculus suits and your poorly played dragon. Why didn't the dragon fly? And if he did, how did the fighters hit him? And you failed the concentration checks? Did you even gave the dragon skill points? Why didn't the dragon concentrate on one PC, but spread its attacks among them? How exactly did they disrupt the spellcasting and how do the symbiots exactly work? This fight was nothing more than a OMG!!!11 Lok at Me 1m Ubar, I killd a Dragon at Lvl 1 with my Vorpal Swod+100!!!!! That the dragon casted feeblemind at the monk is a example how unintelligent it was played.
olshanski_home 03-11-05, 04:09 PM	I once gained seven levels in a single combat round. Of course, it goes without saying that this was due primarily to DM idiocy. Well, I once gained three levels before the round began, and then another 1 each round of combat for 4 rounds, and then another 2 levels when I ordered the pizza.... that was 9 levels... although it averages out to less than your 7 levels per round... I think each level is harder to earn than the level before... those last 2 levels were the hardest.
green_yawgmoth 03-11-05, 06:41 PM	That were not good tactics, it was alone their ridiculus suits and your poorly played dragon. Why didn't the dragon fly? And if he did, how did the fighters hit him? And you failed the concentration checks? Did you even gave the dragon skill points? Why didn't the dragon concentrate on one PC, but spread its attacks among them? How exactly did they disrupt the spellcasting and how do the symbiots exactly work? This fight was nothing more than a OMG!!!11 Lok at Me 1m Ubar, I killd a Dragon at Lvl 1 with my Vorpal Swod+100!!!!! That the dragon casted feeblemind at the monk is a example how unintelligent it was played.Did you even read the thread? It did fly. It got hit with telekinesis and the force of a volcano. Fighters can fly easily; it's called fly, and monks have no limit on the amount they can jump. It was a very small chamber as well. Casting Feeblemind is never poor tactics, no matter who gets tagged by it; the monk had VoP and Touch of Golden Ice; do you know how much that can hurt an evil character alone? I'm siding with the DM on this one. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Szat 03-13-05, 07:23 AM	I refuse to accept this mockery of the challenge rating & a Red Dragon. Where were it's feats, it's skill points, IT FAILED A CONCENTRATION CHECK FROM AN AOP??? HOW!? Not to mention the fact that from your description it wasn't playing it's intelligence. A Red Dragon is not something you just RANDOM ENCOUNTER and since it sounds like this was a planted creature ie. you'd prepared it ahead of time IMO it was played poorly. Additionally I'm not saying that your player isn't to be trusted but his he doing the XP based on the modified challenge rating or for a 9th level party.
Derren S. 03-13-05, 07:29 AM	Did you even read the thread? It did fly. It got hit with telekinesis and the force of a volcano. Fighters can fly easily; it's called fly, and monks have no limit on the amount they can jump. It was a very small chamber as well. Casting Feeblemind is never poor tactics, no matter who gets tagged by it; the monk had VoP and Touch of Golden Ice; do you know how much that can hurt an evil character alone? I'm siding with the DM on this one. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Did you even read the combat log? Why how did the dragon fail the concentration check? Either it was stupid to cast while in threatened space or had a so low concentration check to fail DC 20 checks from an arrow. And casting feeblemind at a monk is about as smart as fireballing a rogue with fire resistance.
green_yawgmoth 03-13-05, 05:31 PM	Did you even read the combat log? Why how did the dragon fail the concentration check? Either it was stupid to cast while in threatened space or had a so low concentration check to fail DC 20 checks from an arrow. And casting feeblemind at a monk is about as smart as fireballing a rogue with fire resistance. Readied actions can be more than just an arrow or a swing of a sword, you know. Possibly a readied action from a *Gasp* spell coulda done it? And seeing as how these guys apparently needed to roll fairly high to hit at all, casting from a threatened square as a DRAGON isn't that big of a risk. And yes, casting Feeb on the caster would have been better, but it's certainly not the blunder you're making it out to be. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Derren S. 03-13-05, 05:37 PM	The wizard (Psion) who couldn't break the SR except on a 19? Yes, sure..... And using an attack on someone who has high defenses against it and wouldn't be affected much by it is stupid as is breathing multiple times at the monk which evades it (nearly?) all times. Thats extremly stupid. Why not at the caster or others who couldn't evade? Feebleminding the monk who has good will save and wis as a prime stat? That is bad tactic. And the dragon failed several concentration checks when disrupted by spellcasting. Don't you think the dragon should have learned by then that it is a bad idea to cast while threatened? But without a combat log we can argue like this forever. Fact is it was either a very badly played dragon, extremly overpowered items or both (my tip). I only know that the PC could barely hit or penetrate the SR of the dragon and would be dead with a single succesfull full attack from the dragon and had slim chance to resist the dragons spells and still won without using intelligent tactics. @Cobalt, please post what the Symbiotes exactly do, what the "reasonable limits" were (when they turn "impossible to hit" into a "hit most of the time" as you describe it, they can't be that reasonable imo, and how many power they had) Also, what is this SR aura? You know that SR is always active. And why didn't the dragon try to cast the killer spells like Blashphemy a second time? And Vishnu said the dragon also had a symbiote, so why didn't he simply use it and squish the PCs?
feildmage 03-13-05, 07:28 PM	I've played the games where you fight hordes of super monsters. You level up quickly. I think you should have your DM think about the monsters you are fighting. Have your DM put some plannig into it. With a little thought a band week monsters with alittle bet of INT could give your group a run for their mony. Just becuse they aren't strong doesn't mean that they aren't tricky.