Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Boid 12-09-06, 04:30 PM	OK, here's the situation... Our side: - L18 Wizard, L17 Cleric, L18 Soul Blade, L17 Druid(2)/Sorceror(15) - One Solar, called through a Gate, who has agreed to help us defeat Their Side - An army of 5,000 assorted soldiers, lieutenants, generals, and spellcasters Their side: - Two Red Wyrms (not Great Wyrm), one of which has the Sword of Kas :eek: - An army of 11,000 assorted soldiers, lieutenants, generals, and spellcasters, all of whom will surrender should the Wyrms fall (a Commune with Pelor told us so) We have agreed with the DM that the armies are going to duke it out "in the background", staying well clear of our fight with the dragons. Further, we have agreed that the at-will summoning ability of the Solar will be countered by the summoning abilities of the Wyrms (not entirely sure I agree with that, but the Solar has plenty of other tricks up his sleeve), so the fight will not be a battle of who can summon more monsters to fight by proxy. It will be us vs. them. We did not know, going into the fight, that the two opponents we were facing were Wyrms. Only when the Solar dispelled a ring one of the "elves" was wearing did his true nature become clear. The other Wyrm is still in elf form (see below), but we know what lurks underneath. Somehow (DM's license), the True Seeing of the Wizard and the Solar didn't see the true nature of the shapechanged dragons. <shrug> The Solar, the Wizard, and the Wizard's familiar all have Shapechange active. The Cleric has a Frostbrand. We're all buffed up pretty good, though I don't think we have a lot of anti-fire-specific buffs going, though the Solar could probably pass some around. The battle just started, with Wyrm 1 (still in elf form) currently inside a solid Forcecage (I expect him to teleport out next round). The familiar is currently shapechanged to something incorporeal and lying in wait underground behind Wyrm 2 (in dragon form). The ideas our party is exploring right now tend towards having the Wizard and his familiar shapechange into Great Wyrms and go head-to-head with Wyrm 2 (who is the "leader"), while the Solar tries to get an Arrow of Slaying into it. We won't get the breath weapon, but we will get the immunities and attacks, which should wear him down. The remainder of the party (Cleric, Druid/Sorceror, Soul Blade, and a DM-controlled L14 Rogue we keep around as a Red Shirt) is going to try to keep Wyrm 1 (the "lieutenant") busy. And last long enough for Wyrm 2 to be brought down. I'm very unfamiliar especially with how to play the Solar to best effect, keeping in mind that I can't use his at-will summoning ability, nor can I Gate in another Solar. Well, if the tide is really going against us, I might just do it anyway, but don't tell the DM... Do I just take him in with the Vorpal blade he's got and hope for a 19/20? Keep lobbing 5 Arrows of Slaying at the Wyrm each round? Shapechange into Monster X? Are there spells in his vast Clerical catalogue that would be particularly useful (or, for that matter 7th level or less Arcane spells, which he can get to through Miracle)? I'm not really interested in comments about how lame this situation is, or how our DM must suck because blah blah blah. <shrug> It is what it is, and I'm a non-hardcore player who needs to help my fellow non-hardcore player figure out a plan. (Incidentally, we brought these characters up from Level 1 in this campaign, which has spanned the last 7 years IRL. :eek: This is the culminating battle in the campaign...and it's about frickin' time!) Thanks in advance.
Alurvelve 12-09-06, 04:43 PM	You would definately want some fire protection. I would also suggest to get Fly on all the characters so if the wyrms take to the air you can do so as well. Not sure what the Fort DC is for the Solar's arrows of slaying are, but a wyrm is going to have some sick Fort saves (+30). Might be best for him to spend the first few rounds buffing your party with fire protection and fly. There is a spell that allows you to make a weapon a bane weapon of your choice, Baneblade if I recall so that'd be nice too. Fighting a dragon when you are not specifically prepared to fight him is a very hard challenge (if the DM plays the dragon right). Well hope my little tips help you some and good luck.
Boid 12-09-06, 05:00 PM	We cast Mass Fly right before the battle, so as long as we each have a "buddy" within 30', we can all fly. Plus, the Solar, the wizard, and the familiar can of course fly at any time; innately for the Solar, and by shapechanging for the others. We had done some reconnoitering before the battle, and a few Communes, so we knew we were going in against something big. We didn't know it would be two somethings, but I think the Solar definitely helps even things out. Wyrm 2 did breathe on the Solar, but after the reflex save and the Solar's Fire Resistance 20, net damage was 30. I had the Solar tell the dragon that he'd stubbed his toe harder than that. My plan is to make it angry so it will make a mistake... :D Any shapechanging ideas? I found an old post titled "shifter's bible" that gives a few suggestions, like Chain Golem, specifically for red dragon fights. I was going to browse through MM and MM2 looking for other ideas. Maybe some type of constricting critter to go around the Wyrm's neck... The wizard does have Timestop memorized. Any novel ways to use that are appreciated.
d24478667 12-09-06, 05:06 PM	Get swallowed, Prismatic Sphere. Or, change into Gold dragons, Claw them to death. Or silve
Derren S. 12-09-06, 05:35 PM	Be glad that they are only wyrms, so they can't use disjunction yet. Vorpal works only on a natural 20 so its probably better when the Solar shoots arrows. Mass fly is a rather suboptimal solution as it forces you to stay together which means that you are a good target for breath weapons. The worst thing that could happen to you is that the dragons use Antimagic Field on themselves (or Antimagic ray when you play with the 10 ft radius AM sphere sillyness). I will not comment on the shapeshift thing as I hate it when people browse through all books to find the best critter to shift into. Imo when you haven't studied it then you can't shift into it. From what you posted it seems to me that the DM wants you to win this battle or at least have a good chance to win it, otherwise the dragons breathing on the solar and not on teh party doesn't make much sense. Still I suggest using the timestop to buff up, especially fire protection when you don't have it already. Do you have paid the Solar or is he only there for some rounds? If yes then Hit and Run tactics would be a problem for you as you have two enemies, but again I don't think your DM will use this rather effective (with snatch) tactic. And the swallow mentioned above does not work as dragons can't swallow. In the end it depends on your DM. If he plays the dragons "right" and does play to kill you have a problem, especially when the dragons use Antimagic and snatch as that is a death trap. But if your DM, like most others, doesn't like to kill of PCs its just another battle.
Boid 12-09-06, 08:26 PM	Be glad that they are only wyrms, so they can't use disjunction yet. Vorpal works only on a natural 20 so its probably better when the Solar shoots arrows. Hmm...well, I need to spend more time studying his abilities, certainly. He has so many SLAs, and divine spell capacity, that I'm sure he can do something other than "just" ranged attacks with his bow of infinite Arrows of Slaying. Mass fly is a rather suboptimal solution as it forces you to stay together which means that you are a good target for breath weapons. Actually, Mass Fly does not require us all to stay together. It requires two at a time, at least, to stay within 30'. We can pair off as far apart as we wish and the Sorceror's familiar is actually one of the recipients, so he's essentially solo (his familiar isn't nearly as useful as mine, a point I emphasize as often as I can). The worst thing that could happen to you is that the dragons use Antimagic Field on themselves (or Antimagic ray when you play with the 10 ft radius AM sphere sillyness). You think so? Doesn't AM suppress all magic, including spellcasting, in the AOE? The dragons' raw physical combat ability doesn't actually scare me as much as their spellcasting. If the dragons want to just duke it out - even with breath weapons - I'm not quite as concerned. They're going to find it difficult to snatch critters that are themselves Huge or Gargantuan. I will not comment on the shapeshift thing as I hate it when people browse through all books to find the best critter to shift into. Imo when you haven't studied it then you can't shift into it. Hmm...so you expect your players to exhibit the same level of knowledge about every creature in the manuals as their 28 Int Wizard who has spent 20-30 years of his life studying monsters? <shrug> We have handled this situation somewhat differently, as we acknowledge that none of us is as smart as our characters. We have created a class of Knowledge skills tied to monster types (Outsider, Undead, Aberration, etc.), and then when needing specific information about a monster (or identifying one the first time we see it), we make a check, with DC set by the DM. So, for example, it might be DC 10 for identification of a red dragon in its natural form (owing to their mythic status, and prominent position on page 1 of the "N00bs Essential Guide To Monsters" that every character starts with), but DC25 to shapeshift into one having never seen one before (a successful check indicates that the character's study of the dragon monster type included enough on red dragons that he/she can change into one). So I can certainly tell my DM I want to shift into some truly obscure oddity that exactly matches the situation, but I might find I don't have the knowledge to actually do so. The DM's guide says to let the PCs try almost anything. Just assess the difficulty, determine the right skill(s) to apply, and set the DC. Works almost all the time. From what you posted it seems to me that the DM wants you to win this battle or at least have a good chance to win it, otherwise the dragons breathing on the solar and not on teh party doesn't make much sense. No doubt the DM doesn't have nearly your skill and precision playing dragons. It's a failing in him that I manage to overlook. However, since the party, at the time, was scattered around the battlefield (two of them incorporeal) and the Solar was in range and had just dispelled the dragon's prized ring, perhaps the dragon was just feeling especially snippy towards him. I'm sure he'll spread the firey love soon enough. Do you have paid the Solar or is he only there for some rounds? Our contract with the Solar is until both Wyrms are defeated. In the end it depends on your DM. If he plays the dragons "right" and does play to kill you have a problem, especially when the dragons use Antimagic and snatch as that is a death trap. But if your DM, like most others, doesn't like to kill of PCs its just another battle. I think it would be extremely interesting - and a good learning experience - to play a campaign with you as DM. I've never played an adventure where the goal of the DM is to kill the party, rather than provide them with an exciting challenge where death is a possibility. Our own DM has shown (at least once per character! :D ) that death is definitely a possibilty in his campaign. But not with quite the energy and purpose that I think you might bring to it. Tell me at least ressurections are costed at retail in your campaigns! ;)
Derren S. 12-10-06, 03:28 AM	You think so? Doesn't AM suppress all magic, including spellcasting, in the AOE? The dragons' raw physical combat ability doesn't actually scare me as much as their spellcasting. If the dragons want to just duke it out - even with breath weapons - I'm not quite as concerned. They're going to find it difficult to snatch critters that are themselves Huge or Gargantuan. Yes, AM surpresses all magic except instanteous conjuration spells and only if they are casted outside of the AMF. That means when you come within 10 ft of a dragon your shapechange will get surpressed too. And without magic even the solar would have big problems in melee. Also the goals in my adventures isn't to kill the players but, other than most DMs, I also don't try to keep the PCs alive. Most DMs will not kill PCs because of bad dice rules and when faced with a TPK they will pull some other punches. Not so me. But don't worry, the most effective tactic for dragons is also the most unfun for the players (casting AM ray on itself, Snatch, fly away to kill, come back to repeat) so I don't think your DM will use that. What you can try is to ready actions to place prismatic walls, or even wall of forces into the flight path of the dragons. While according to the rules the dragons can always stop moving many DMs rule that the dragons are forced to fly through and even take damage when hitting a WoF.
runestar 12-10-06, 10:01 AM	Granted, if you had opted to gate in an infernal instead, the battle would likely be over in a moment, but since the die has been cast....:) And I assume there is no shivering touch cheese here.;) So its good old fashioned beatdown. The Solar has wish as a SLA and should have 1 casting of miracle memorised. I think this sort of scenario definitely warrants the usage of both....Can't think of a decent use for wish offhand though... I suggest that the solar stay far far away. The dragon will have no trouble ripping it to shreds, given its abyssmal ac(unless you take pains to boost this), but even then, its not really that strong in combat. Slaying arrows are really only going to work on a natural 1, and you still have to hit, so it doesn't seem that reliable either. It probably works well as an auxiliary spellcaster. I would advise against spamming summon monster, not because I find it abusive, but rather, because the quality of summons is so crap at this lv that they will only end up cluttering the battlefield and bog down the game unnecessarily. Note that in a pinch, you can use it as the solar was gated in, not summoned. You will definitely want to prebuff all you can prior to the battle. Cast extended mindblank/moment of prescience/heroes' feast/any misc buff with duration of 1 day, then rest to regain all your spells. Stock up on fire immunity. It might be tempting to prepare tons of metamagicked cold spells, but if the dm controlling the dragons is no slouch, he is sure to have forseen this and have the dragons protected with cold immunity spells. Your spellcasters may want to open up with greater dispellings to remove any buffs. If possible, check up Dragons of Faerun for some anti-dragon spells. Your spellcasters might want to shapechange into a choker or chronotyn for extra standard actions. 2 red wyrms constitute a EL26 encounter, so it should tax your party to their very limits. So don't feel sad if losses run high.
Derren S. 12-10-06, 10:09 AM	I don't think there is much time to buff or even select spells considering that they already stand before the dragons.
Boid 12-10-06, 02:01 PM	Thanks for all the help. As I mentioned above, we knew we were in for something "big", just didn't know the exact nature. The polymorphed dragons (actually, they are half-fiend dragons <sigh>) had usurped the rightful king and had been subjugating the citizenry for years. Every attempt to take them down had failed, with "the Horned King" having apparent immortality in some way (this is the myth spread amongst the people), but there was one known way to forever trap his soul if he could be slain blah blah blah. 7 years IRL later, here we are at last. We're limited to PH, DoF, and TaB for spells. So no cool anti-dragon spells, unfortunately. We tend to play PH spells pretty much as written, subject to the D&D FAQ & Errata. AMF pretty explicitly says that if you're larger than the field, parts of your body not in it aren't affected, so maybe that would provide some opening for us to...uh...attack the tail? Antimagic Ray apparently is from a different source. Scanning TaB, I see that the Energy Immunity spell is pretty much exactly what we need. Stupidly, we didn't fully spec the Solar when we Gated him in, so I now hafta negotiate with the DM on his spells. Probably I'll get to choose 1 or 2 from each level, then random the rest. It's interesting to hear that the Solar is seen as a relatively weak combatant here. His primary melee attack hits on a 7 or better (before buffs). According to (v3.0) description of Vorpal, it will behead on a "successful critical", so a 19/20 + second successful hit of course. And it's a Dancing sword, giving us 4 rounds of Vorpality alongside the Solar's spellcasting. True, the Solar's AC is 7 less than the Wyrm, but we've buffed him +2, and added False Life and Improved Biofeedback. With his natural DR 35/+4 and Regeneration 15, I'd think mano-a-mano (Celestial-a-Dragon), he's more than a match for the Wyrm. That doesn't even consider his higher caster level, stronger SR, perfect 150' flying ability, Teleport at will, etc. I mean, the description pretty much says it: "Solars are virtually unmatched in power. Other than demon princes, archdevils, and deities, nothing else in the multiverse approaches them." Now, of course, I'm an utter and total n00b in PC-ing a Solar, so no doubt our particular friend will be somewhat less than fully potent. OK, so what am I missing? One-on-one (nevermind the puny attempts of the regular PCs), why is a Solar a weak combatant compared to a Red Wyrm?
NightBreeze 12-10-06, 04:44 PM	The problam with solars is basically that they can utterly dominate every battlefield, because of their amazing at-will spells and equipment, however in 1 on 1 melee the dragons are utterly the most amazing beasts in the MM (except for the tarrasque..oh well) and the solar can stand to them only if fully buffed with aproporiate cleric spells (like divine power, favor and so on). However, as you don't get to prepare it's spells , you can't decide on this. Now I do agree that you shouldn't dismiss his power as someone here thinks (hey...we are speaking about opinions, I don't have my books right here so if you can show me I'm utterly wrong , do it ,please). As for those wyrms: hehehe....heavy beasts. Your strong points are the spellcasting powers: you've got 3 casters with 9th level spells. Here you can get lots of tactics, however you have your spells already prepared, so you can't change that. So, please, post your higher levels spells, in order to get something precise. ;)
Derren S. 12-10-06, 05:05 PM	Half Fiend dragons? Now you have a problem. Their Blashphemy ability can send back the Solar to Celestia and automatically kill everyone who gets caught by it with no save. Good luck with that. And in 3.5 Vorpal only works on a 20 no matter how big the threat range of the weapon is. That you play with 10 ft. is a mixed blessing. Sure the wyrms can't make themself immun to magic which would screw you entirely, but tehy could center the AMF on a claw, use it to snatch someone who is utterly helpless and still retain their spells and breath weapon as the rest of the body is outside the AMF.
Boid 12-10-06, 06:20 PM	Half Fiend dragons? Now you have a problem. Oh, now we have a problem... ;) Their Blashphemy ability can send back the Solar to Celestia and automatically kill everyone who gets caught by it with no save. Good luck with that. Well, it's not quite that bad. True, should the Solar get within 30' of the dragon (quite possible), it would be subject to Blasphemy. However, the Solar has SR 32, and Protection From Spells, so with its caster level of 17, the dragon will have to roll...uh...23 on its caster level check. So, call it a 5% chance. Also, the Wizard has successfully identified the half-fiendishness of the critters (that specialized Knowledge skill I mentioned above), and we all are on a Telepathic Link (we did know we were in for The Big Fight), so everybody knows what they're up against - at least by name. Each PC will have to make a Kno check to see if they know specific abilities of half-fiends (the Wiz hasn't had time yet to relay all the details across the link). Anyway, the Solar might spend an action specifically warding himself (haven't figured out how yet) vs. Blasphemy. As for killing us off, Blasphemy - in v3.0 anyway - won't do that. Best it can do against 12+ HD is daze us. Still not helpful, but at least we won't be wiped off the map. That you play with 10 ft. is a mixed blessing. Sure the wyrms can't make themself immun to magic which would screw you entirely, but tehy could center the AMF on a claw, use it to snatch someone who is utterly helpless and still retain their spells and breath weapon as the rest of the body is outside the AMF. Dang, I hope our DM doesn't read this forum... :) I just read through the Dragon and Celestial pages, and I'm beginning to better appreciate the awesomeness of Dragons. According to the DM's, this encounter is CR25 (2x CR23 critters), and with the Solar, our EL is about 18 or 19. There are 6 of us, so maybe that helps a bit, but still -- I see your point. If the DM played this well, with proper tactics, there should be a nice PC paste spread evenly across the battlefield. Well, the Solar and us have a deal, so hopefully he'll come back and scrape up the paste and rez us... I gotta call the DM and negotiate on the Solar's spells. I know what the wizard and cleric memorized for this battle. I'll post back in a bit. One "ace in the hole" for us is this army of 5,000 on "our side". Leading the army is a level 20-ish wizard, and he has ~50 lower-level arcane and divine spellcasters with him. The wizard and a few of his generals are on the link and it's possible our mental screams of anguish as we get stomped/burned/eaten might bring help. The dragons also have an army (about 2x our size), and various spellcasters, but the 411 on these two is that they are supremely confident and arrogant (red dragons? Naahhhh...) and wouldn't resort to calling in help. /shrug The DM has shown a willingness to kill us in the past and if the dice say "you die", then we'll die, but if we play smart he'll let us find a solution. In the...oh...4 rounds we have left to live...
Alurvelve 12-10-06, 07:16 PM	If you got any other friends it might be a good time to call in some favors, useing sending spells or teleporting there. Remember it is better to run and live another day than to stay and fight. i think too many pcs get it in thier head that they have to win every encounter. Do what you can and get the heck out of there. Spend some time regrouping and now that you know what your up against properly prepare for them and take it to them. Depending on how easily magic items are available to you go pick up some +1 Holy dragonbane weapons when you regroup. If I remember right you said someone has time stop, keep it as your ace in the whole (or get out of jail/death free spell). Keep it until you know your going ot lose and use it ot get out of dodge. I can not say enough times at how hard a dragon is to defeat and excpecially if you are not ready to fight that dragon. I remember reaing somewhere that the CR's for the dragons in the MM are set-up for you being prepared to fight that type of dragon, so if you randomly enconter one its CR should be raised accordingly. But i do not remember where I read that so who knows. Again good luck and may Tymora smile upon you.
runestar 12-10-06, 10:55 PM	Well, it's not quite that bad. True, should the Solar get within 30' of the dragon (quite possible), it would be subject to Blasphemy. However, the Solar has SR 32, and Protection From Spells, so with its caster level of 17, the dragon will have to roll...uh...23 on its caster level check. So, call it a 5% chance. He's talking about the blasphemy SLA from the half-fiend template, whose caster lv = dragon's HD. This means a caster lv of 37, which more than exceeds the solar's sr, and is well enough to spell instant doom for anyone nuked by it.;) It's interesting to hear that the Solar is seen as a relatively weak combatant here. So are you playing 3.0 or 3.5? The solar has been updated, look up the SRD to find its newest stats. Basically, vorpal only works on a natural 20 now, its dr is only 15/epic+evil, and most importantly, it no longer wields a vorpal greatsword(Just a +5 dancing greatsword, unless you equip it out of your own pockets). Regeneration15 is useless against a power attacking dragon's full attack sequence as well. OK, so what am I missing? One-on-one (nevermind the puny attempts of the regular PCs), why is a Solar a weak combatant compared to a Red Wyrm? It just is. Pit one against the other(using the 3.5 stats), and you will understand. Unlike the dragon, the solar was not designed as a melee bruiser, and thus using it as one would not be playing to its full strengths.:(
Derren S. 12-11-06, 03:34 AM	Wait, you are playing 3.0? Then I have to rethink a bit.
CriminalTruth 12-11-06, 09:47 AM	solar ='s divine favor + righteous might ='s bad news for dragon.. however, miricle and wish ='s bad news for dragons + all the other nasty abilities...dont forget he's a 20th lvl caster.. add meteroric strike to his righteousness divine favor and your spelling trouble for the dragons... hmm lets see... you could also do something along the lines of a COLD firestorm with miricle and wish for up to 25 D6 ... add in possible maximize rods..or quicken rods.. and the dragon is in trouble.. IF your playing 3.0 rules any type of haste effect for the solar and the wizards is insain.. 3 spells per round ='s trouble for the dragons.....add in divine metamagic ( the solar is a 20th lvl cleric.. ) i really think the solar could take them down one at a time if played right .. provided ur party distracts one...
Boid 12-11-06, 04:21 PM	Remember it is better to run and live another day than to stay and fight. i think too many pcs get it in thier head that they have to win every encounter. Do what you can and get the heck out of there. I completely agree and, in fact, every member of the party has a gem of recall (forget the exact spell name; books not with me now) that, when crushed, will teleport them back to a safe haven. Leaving the army to be slaughtered might have alignment impact; haven't thought that through yet. I won't hesitate to give the "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!" command if things get really bad. Ok...more really bad than they are already. He's talking about the blasphemy SLA from the half-fiend template, whose caster lv = dragon's HD. This means a caster lv of 37, which more than exceeds the solar's sr, and is well enough to spell instant doom for anyone nuked by it. Hmm...I need to re-read the template again, obviously. And hope the DM hasn't read it closely... Still, it will only daze >12 HD creatures, right? I mean, we'll only be unable to act for d4 or whatever rounds...perfectly safe! :( So are you playing 3.0 or 3.5? ... Regeneration15 is useless against a power attacking dragon's full attack sequence as well. We're playing 3.0, and by Pelor I'm taking my Vorpality-on-19-or-20. Need everything I can get. As for the Regen 15, combined with the Solar's DR 35/+4 (which the Wyrm, with DR ?/+2 can't bypass), and Improved Biofeedback (18 points of any attack is subdual rather than normal), I think the Solar is a little better off than you might think. I don't mean to suggest, though, that I think the Solar is the equal of a Dragon in straight melee. It's more that I think it's a match in an overall 1-on-1 combat. Melee, spells, aerial combat all included. Well, I thought it was a match, but I'm reconsidering. One thing I keep coming back to: the Solar's Teleport w/o Error at will ability. Isn't it the ultimate hit-and-run combatant? Especially with Haste... >poof< WHACK >poof<....or >poof< Cone of Cold >poof<... IF your playing 3.0 rules any type of haste effect for the solar and the wizards is insain.. 3 spells per round ='s trouble for the dragons.....add in divine metamagic ( the solar is a 20th lvl cleric.. ) Mass Haste was cast before the battle, but I'm not sure where you get 3 spells per round? Haste only confers an extra partial action, taken either before or after your normal action. My normal action allows me to full move, move and attack, move and cast, or full attack. The extra Haste action gives me an additional partial attack, or a spell. So that's a maximum of 2 spells during my turn. Still very, very useful. Mass Haste is one of my favorite spells. As for metamagic, unfortunately the Solar's feats are spelled out in the MM, and metamagic is not included. I don't think there's anything I could offer to the DM that would allow me to replace a feat with, say, Spell Penetration. The L17 cleric, though, used an Incense of Meditaion prior to the fight, so all his spells are maximized. He'll be a healing machine, which is good because I think we're going to need plenty of it... <slap head>DOH! The cleric had more than 1 block of incense. Should have given one to the Solar. Dumb dumb dumb.
NightBreeze 12-11-06, 07:42 PM	Oh well, you should thank gods that you are playing in 3.0 In 3.5 a Blasphemy with CL37 just kills you: unless you've got at least 38 Spell Resistance (and even then you have just a 5% chance of survival). Your only hope against that would be spell immunity or death ward. If you are just dazed for 1d4 rounds....that's a loud "ouch" anyway as dragons breath + full attack isn't something to scoff at...ummm....it's pretty...shall we say.....deadly?? Still waiting for the spell lists ;) Anyway, the hit-and run tactic with the solar is very good (unless your dm has read the novel named Return of the Archwizards and knows that every teleporting spell leaves you a little bit dazed and confused for some second ;) )
Boid 12-12-06, 01:04 AM	Okay, here's how the L17 Wizard and L4 Fighter/L14 Cleric are set up (All numbers are after buffing): L17 Wizard Str-16; Dex-22; Con-19; Int-28; Wis-14; Cha-13 AC-49 (incl. Shield spell); HP-132; Fort-22; Ref-25; Will-26 Pertinent Feats: Spell Penetration Buffs: Heroes' Feast, Displacement, Haste, False Life, Stoneskin (130), Magic Circle Against Evil, Protection from Spells, Spell Turning (9), Prayer, Recitation, Shield, Barkskin, Magic Vestment, Combat Precognition, Animal Affinity (Dex) Spells (>=L5): Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Lightning Bolt (Empowered), Teleport, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Greater Dispelling, Summon VI, Forcecage, Lim. Wish, Reverse Gravity, Prismatic Wall, Summon VIII, Time Stop Items: Refuge token (save haven); 2x Teleport w/o Error scrolls; assorted healing potions L18 Fighter/Cleric (4/14) Str-20; Dex-16; Con-16; Int-13; Wis-26; Cha-12 AC-37; HP-156; Fort-26; Ref-18; Will-29; Melee +32; Ranged +32 Pertinent Feats: Combat Casting, Expertise, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Rapid Reload Buffs: Heroes' Feast, Haste, False Life, Stoneskin (130), Protection from Spells, Prayer, Recitation, Barkskin, Combat Precognition, Combat Prescience, Bull's Strength, Animal Affinity (Wis), Incense of Meditation, Displacement, Regenerate Critical Wounds, Improved Biofeedback, Greater Magic Weapon (Frostbrand, Crossbow, Bolts) Spells (>=L5): Dispel Evil, Healing Circle, Regenerate Serious Wounds, Righteous Might, Antilife Shell, Energy Immunity, Heal, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Destruction, Summon VII, Control Weather Items: Refuge token; Coif +3 save vs fire (custom item); Ioun Stone (Wis+2); Ring of Freedom of Movement; +3 Breastplate of Heavy Fortification (no crits); Winged Shield; Frostbrand; +1 Repeating Crossbow I'm still working up the Solar. DM is allowing me to pick half, random half his spells (at each level), with obviously bad randoms (like Unholy Aura, or multiple Summon VII's) re-rolled. We Gated the Solar in the day before the battle, so DM thought it fair the Solar could prep knowing a "big battle" was in store the next day. Well, "prep" short of Gate-ing in a few buddies. :) The psionicist (Soul Blade), the Druid/Sorceror, and the L14-ish rogue I don't have details on yet. The Soul Blade has a pretty high AC, IIRC, and a pretty nasty sword physically grafted onto his right arm (psionicists are weird). The druid/sorceror is mostly sorceror (2/15 or 2/16 is the split, I think) and carries mostly standard offensive spells. The rogue is the only one so far to actually hit one of the critters, with his Greater Magic Weapon-ed composite longbow and arrows (gotta love stacking enhancements). He's weak in HP, but very, very good at shooting arrows. I'll try to get details on these guys.
Vanigo 12-12-06, 03:22 AM	Hmm. This is clearly a "pull-out-all-the-stops" battle. First things first, I'd see if you can use the Solar's wish to swap out all your prepped spells for exactly what you need. (A sufficiently high Knowledge: Arcana check should tell you this.) Got any dirty tricks you've been sitting on? Here's one you might find helpful. The energy orb spells in T&B can be split into up to fifteen separate orbs by splitting the dice, and each one forces a fortitude save for half damage and negation of a secondary effect. Take note, there's nothing stopping you from firing all fifteen orbs at the same target. Sure, your meager 23 DC means the dragon will only fail on a natural 1, but that's still slightly better than even odds of causing some unpleasantness. Unfortunately, the best secondary effect available is dazing, and that's from fire orb. I'd use acid orb for a little damage plus nausea. (It's rather too late for this, but out of curiosity, why don't you have Energy Substitution: Sonic? That'd get you the best of both worlds.) You still have to break SR, unfortunately, but it's still potentially devastating. Summon arrowhawks. Their electrical ranged touch attacks are so perfect aganist dragons it's not even funny. They won't last long, of course, but that's a round or two in which the dragons aren't killing you. If you can get your spells changed out, enough arrowhawks can pretty easily take out a dragon. (Of course, "enough" means "sixty or so," so you probably can't do it.) See what you can do about shutting down the dragons' spellcasting. Your familiar could ready an action to turn into a beholder and point its antimagic cone at a dragon that starts casting, but that would kinda make it a big ol' target. Ice knife is pretty good in this situation if you've got it (and can hit with it). It only takes five of them for the dexterity damage to drop a dragon. The bad news is, it takes a normal ranged attack, so you'll have to hit AC 43 (and breach SR 30, of course) to hurt it. You will, however, get +16 to your attack roll on top of anything else you've got. You're right about the vorpal sword being potentially huge. It's got a 6% chance to outright kill one of those dragons on the first attack, and keen edge will double that figure. What's better, the people who are saying the solar would get killed by the dragon in melee are forgetting one very important thing about 3.0: Solars have DR 35/+4. Those dragons only have DR 20/+3. The dragons can't penetrate the solar's damage reduction. In fact, only a crit has much chance to do even a single point of damage to the solar. If you plant an energy immunity on it and keep the dragons from casting, it could take them both down without breaking a sweat. The trick, of course, is keeping the dragons from casting. Well, that and not dying in the meantime. (Whatever you do, don't let the solar get caught in an AMF. He'd get slaughtered without his DR and head-choppiness.)
Derren S. 12-12-06, 03:28 AM	Well you have all the brokeness of 3.0 at your disposal so use it. haste, harm, etc. That makes the fight quite a bit easier.
Boid 12-12-06, 11:57 AM	First things first, I'd see if you can use the Solar's wish to swap out all your prepped spells for exactly what you need. Dang. Excellent idea. The energy orb spells in T&B can be split into up to fifteen separate orbs by splitting the dice, and each one forces a fortitude save for half damage and negation of a secondary effect. ... (It's rather too late for this, but out of curiosity, why don't you have Energy Substitution: Sonic? That'd get you the best of both worlds.) I'll look into it. I don't have ES: Sonic because...ah...I'm not nearly expert enough to perfectly tweak for max effect, I suppose. I have ES: Acid, but that's not so helpful here. Well, "Acid Ball" might be surprising to the dragons. Summon arrowhawks. Their electrical ranged touch attacks are so perfect aganist dragons it's not even funny. ... (Of course, "enough" means "sixty or so," so you probably can't do it.) Since the Solar can summon at will, getting enough 'hawks wouldn't be too big a problem. Two per round, anyway (Haste). The DM - incorrectly, IMO - posited that our enemy's summoning ability (this was before we knew what they were) was the equal of the Solar's, and to dispense with having to have a proxy fight between summons, we agreed to not summon and counter-summon. Now that I know what we're up against, I'm going to argue the point again. The dragons do not have summon at will, like the Solar does, and besides, this fight is like +7 CR so we oughta be able to summon a few helpers. Hell, I may argue that the Solar should be allowed to teleport a bit away, Gate in another Solar, exchange pleasantries, and then get back in the fight. We're paying the first Solar over 5x the standard rate per day of service, so he can split the take with Solar #2. Or, that will be my argument. See what you can do about shutting down the dragons' spellcasting. Your familiar could ready an action to turn into a beholder and point its antimagic cone at a dragon that starts casting, but that would kinda make it a big ol' target. Is the anti-magic cone an Ex ability? I don't get Su abilities with Shapechange. Ice knife is pretty good in this situation if you've got it (and can hit with it). It only takes five of them for the dexterity damage to drop a dragon. The bad news is, it takes a normal ranged attack, so you'll have to hit AC 43 (and breach SR 30, of course) to hurt it. You will, however, get +16 to your attack roll on top of anything else you've got. I've got a few True Strikes memorized, for an additional +20. You're right about the vorpal sword being potentially huge. It's got a 6% chance to outright kill one of those dragons on the first attack, and keen edge will double that figure. Keen edge. Right. Forgot the name of that spell and hadn't made it to the K's yet. :) The trick, of course, is keeping the dragons from casting. Well, that and not dying in the meantime. (Whatever you do, don't let the solar get caught in an AMF. He'd get slaughtered without his DR and head-choppiness.) Well, the Solar has SR32, and the dragons only (!) have a caster level of 17. Plus, he has Protection from Spells going I think. How would an AMF affect his DR? Is that an Su effect? On a side note - what did they do to Haste in 3.5?
Derren S. 12-12-06, 12:04 PM	what did they do to Haste in 3.5? No more extra standard action. Only +1AC, +1 Ref, +1 Attack when doing a full attack, +30ft movement and it affects multiple targets at once. Much more balanced then 3.0 Haste which was (or in your case is) superbroken.
runestar 12-12-06, 12:31 PM	You know haste is broken when in 3.0, every single spellcaster capable of casting haste always initiated combat with "...casts haste, followed by a 2nd spell and a quickened...":P The trend quickly becomes repetitive in CoTSQ.:(
Boid 12-12-06, 01:23 PM	No more extra standard action. Only +1AC, +1 Ref, +1 Attack when doing a full attack, +30ft movement and it affects multiple targets at once. Much more balanced then 3.0 Haste which was (or in your case is) superbroken. Ah, I see. It's a matter of semantics. I take "broken" to mean "doesn't work right" or "only works for [PCs | Monsters]". I would call it overpowerful, but since everybody plays by the same rules, it's not broken. My enemy gets all the advantages I do, if he uses the spell. Edit: read the board terminology FAQ. I now understand that "broken" is the accepted term for an unbalanced game element. So nevermind the above. So the 3.5 Haste is the 3.0 Mass Haste, only with significantly less buffing? <shrug> I can live with that. I always thought Haste should affect initiative, though. And I didn't really understand the AC adjustment. I mean, if I'm Hasted, I move faster, but not necessarily with any more dexterity. I can very clumsily walk at a speed of 60, can't I? Do any creatures with very fast movement get an AC boost because of their speed? Is my Solar friend suddenly AC+2 when he's flying at 150 vs. walking at 50? Nope. I thought the extra action (and an initiative boost) actually made more sense than the AC bonus. But only slightly more sense. I mean, it's magic...how much sense can it make? Did they make a similar adjustment to Slow?
Boid 12-12-06, 01:28 PM	"...casts haste, followed by a 2nd spell and a quickened..." Ah, that's where you get the 3-spells-per-round. We haven't done that, but then I don't think any of our spellcasters has Quicken Spell. I'm sure our DM would allow it once (out of surprise), then make a ruling nerfing that particular combo. Our next campaign (starting after we <cough> take care of these dragons) will be 3.5. I look forward to re-learning all this crap.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-06, 01:52 PM	3.0 with Mass Haste running, a bunch of casters, and a solar? This should actually be a pretty sure win for you, I think. Especially since the DM seems to be taking it easy on you (he should have had both dragons breath on you at the same time in the first round. I can't believe you guys didn't have fire protection spells up...) Have the Solar use Wish to cause the dragon to either fail or have a heavy penalty on its next saving throw and spell resistance (if Limited Wish can give him a -7 penalty to saves, I think this is reasonable for Wish). Then hit it with a "save or die". I see Disintegrate on your list. 3.0 Disintegrate should work, I think. If your cleric didn't have 4 fighter levels, he might be useful with that Destruction spell. :rolleyes: You could see if you can negotiate for the solar having one prepped, though. Edit: Oh, wait. 3.0 Harm was insane. Use that instead of Destruction. Have the solar use Harm, and the fighter/cleric ready an action to smack the dragon as soon as the Harm spell goes off. Also, can't wizards directly affect things while they have a 3.0 Timestop going? If so, you could Timestop and unload all of the "save or die" type spells on them during the Timestop.
Derren S. 12-12-06, 02:12 PM	As I said, you have all the 3.0 broke (=overpowered) stuff at your disposal. Use it and it is an easy win.
Boid 12-12-06, 02:32 PM	3.0 with Mass Haste running, a bunch of casters, and a solar? This should actually be a pretty sure win for you, I think. Especially since the DM seems to be taking it easy on you (he should have had both dragons breath on you at the same time in the first round. I can't believe you guys didn't have fire protection spells up...) You might want to re-read the initial post. Both dragons were A) polymorphed (in some resistant-to-True Seeing-way that the DM and I are going to talk about when this is over) at the beginning of the fight and B) unknown to us as dragons. Only by dispelling one of the dragons' rings did their (or its) true nature become known. We know they're half-fiends because of the small bat wings they carry in elven form. For any future respondents - we did not know we were going up against red dragons. We knew it was going to be the BBEG of the campaign, just not his exact nature. Have the Solar use Wish to cause the dragon to either fail or have a heavy penalty on its next saving throw and spell resistance (if Limited Wish can give him a -7 penalty to saves, I think this is reasonable for Wish). Great idea, thanks. I was looking for debuffs that might work and didn't consider Wish (or Miracle, which the Solar also has). If your cleric didn't have 4 fighter levels, he might be useful with that Destruction spell. :rolleyes: Ha ha yeah too bad I couldn't roll him up at level 1 specifically to account for this fight, seven IRL years later. :rolleyes: At the time, fighter HP, feats, and proficiencies seemed reasonable. <shrug> 3.0 Harm was insane. Use that instead of Destruction. Have the solar use Harm, and the fighter/cleric ready an action to smack the dragon as soon as the Harm spell goes off. Yeah, Harm is pretty powerful for...what...level 6? What happens to it in 3.5? Also, can't wizards directly affect things while they have a 3.0 Timestop going? If so, you could Timestop and unload all of the "save or die" type spells on them during the Timestop. No, you cannot affect anything directly during Time Stop, though you can cast spells, the effects of which will trigger at the end of the spell.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-06, 02:34 PM	No, you cannot affect anything directly during Time Stop, though you can cast spells, the effects of which will trigger at the end of the spell.What exactly is the difference? Go read 3.5 Time Stop, and you'll see what I mean...
Boid 12-12-06, 02:41 PM	As I said, you have all the 3.0 broke (=overpowered) stuff at your disposal. Use it and it is an easy win. Okay, I get that you dislike (perhaps even despise) 3.0. But how is it an "easy win" when our opponents have the very same ruleset to work with? Haste is too strong? So what stops the wyrms from using it? Harm is too strong? What's to stop the wyrms from using it? Vorpal sword is too strong? The head wyrm has The Sword of Kas, for FSM's sake. I don't deny that 3.5 is an improvement over 3.0 - frankly I can't comment one way or another, since I haven't yet dropped the Benjamins on a new set of books - but seeing as everybody on the battlefield is subject to the same rules, I don't see the rule version as being that big of a factor. It will be my knowledge of the rules - regardless of version - that will make or break the fight.
Boid 12-12-06, 02:45 PM	What exactly is the difference? Go read 3.5 Time Stop, and you'll see what I mean... Okay, I'll do that. Sorry, you asked the question in a particular way - "can't wizards directly affect things while they have a 3.0 Timestop going?" - and the answer to that is simple. I didn't mean to make any comment about how it might be different in 3.5.
Derren S. 12-12-06, 02:46 PM	Because you can easily dispell the spells the dragons have. So Haste for them is rather useless but without haste they have no chance. (And generally, after the point the wizards can use Haste regulary, every monster without access to Haste is screwed) Same with Harm. When they concentrate on a single PC they can kill him in 1 round with harm. But you can kill both wyrms with Harm in one round. Of course only if you don't kill them with Time Stop + 2-8 Death spells already. (In 3.5 you can only casts spells with a duration > instant in Time Stop. In 3.0 you can precast as many Death Spells as you can and they all go off at the end of the TS, killing the target most of the time.)
Derren S. 12-12-06, 02:50 PM	double post
lancean 12-12-06, 03:03 PM	EDIT: whoops. Strike that. Solars don't have Wave of Exhaustion in 3.0. Nevermind. =)
Boid 12-12-06, 03:15 PM	Because you can easily dispell the spells the dragons have. So Haste for them is rather useless but without haste they have no chance. No chance? Wow, I had no idea just how "broken" 3.0 was. We've gone from probable TPK to "easy victory". What stops the dragons from Greater Dispelling the bazillion buffs we have going? (I can't believe I'm arguing for the dragons...) (And generally, after the point the wizards can use Haste regulary, every monster without access to Haste is screwed) Agreed. We PCs lovez0rz our Haste and we'll be sad to see it go in 3.5. Same with Harm. When they concentrate on a single PC they can kill him in 1 round with harm. But you can kill both wyrms with Harm in one round. Fair point, but how is this different from any instant-death spell? Strength in numbers is a benefit in any combat situation. Or am I missing your point? Of course only if you don't kill them with Time Stop + 2-8 Death spells already. (In 3.5 you can only casts spells with a duration > instant in Time Stop.) Hmm...that is a potent combination, especially considering the Wizard has a focus in Necromancy. Still, the SR and save of the dragons make it unlikely to succeed I think. Let's see...I'd need an 11 on the SR check, so 50%, and probably the dragon would have to roll a 1 or 2 on the save, call it 10%. Net 5% chance, or 40% chance of at least one successful Death effect if I get to cast 8 during the Time Stop (nevermind I don't have that many spell slots available). And what Death effect would I choose? Slay Living and PW: Kill both have HD limits, don't they? Having never played a character this high level, I have very limited experience with level 9 spells like Time Stop. It seemed extraordinarily powerful, but I hadn't yet thought up a devastating use for it yet. So, for the D&D theorists, what's the response to the argument "Hey, it's a 9th level spell, and it cost me dearly to get this far. I should be able to have one shot per combat of utterly devastating my opponent." <shrug> Not saying I strongly hold to that point of view, but it seems worth arguing. No doubt dozens of threads have been made on the topic, so consider it hypothetical in this one. Forcecage is another of those really strong spells that I bet 3.5 has nerfed a bit. No save, no SR? Pfff...I love that spell. In the current situation, in fact, where one of the (shapechanged) dragons is currently inside a Forcecage, I'm thinking of casting Dimensional Lock right on top of it, to keep him from Teleporting out. He can still try Destruction, but at least that requires a roll. Speaking of Dimensional Lock, if the Solar were to cast that on the area he was standing in, would that stop Blasphemy from sending him home? The spell says it doesn't affect the return of a summon at the end of the summon's duration, but I don't see a Blasphemy-forced return as the same thing. I plan to argue to the DM that Dimensional Lock should keep the Solar firmly in the Prime Material. Facing a Red Wyrm. Fun times. (Thanks for all the debate, by the way. I may be DMing the next adventure, and this is good thought-provoking stuff. I'm going to go buy the 3.5 materials tonight I think.)
Boid 12-12-06, 03:18 PM	EDIT: whoops. Strike that. Solars don't have Wave of Exhaustion in 3.0. Nevermind. =) LOL...I saw your post, clicked "Quote", and >poof< it changed! I was going to say...Wave of What??? :D
Derren S. 12-12-06, 03:23 PM	No chance? Wow, I had no idea just how "broken" 3.0 was. We've gone from probable TPK to "easy victory". What stops the dragons from Greater Dispelling the bazillion buffs we have going? (I can't believe I'm arguing for the dragons...) Of course they can. 1 Dragon uses his turn to cast greater dispell on a character and even if he strips this one of haste this character could simply recast it and still has a standard action left to do something else while the dragon wasted his turn. Fair point, but how is this different from any instant-death spell? Strength in numbers is a benefit in any combat situation. Or am I missing your point? All other instant-death spells allow saves. Not so Harm. And hitting touch ACs is very easy, at least against dragons. And don't forget that Harm is only 6th level but still more powerfull then some 8th or 9th level spells. Generally the "the enemy can use it too" excuse is only valid as long as you fight full adventuring parties. As soon as the enemy can't for example cast spells or use vorpal weapons these overpowered things mean a quick win for the PCs.
Boid 12-12-06, 03:32 PM	Of course they can. 1 Dragon uses his turn to cast greater dispell on a character and even if he strips this one of haste this character could simply recast it and still has a standard action left to do something else while the dragon wasted his turn. Hmm. To that I'd counter that 1) the Greater Dispelling would have its way with a whole host of buffs, not just Haste. Goodbye Stoneskin, goodbye Protection from Spells, goodbye Energy Immunity, etc. and 2) only the Sorceror can just cast Haste again. The Wizard did not memorize a bunch of Hastes (though, perhaps, a power gamer would always do so, for just this situation). All other instant-death spells allow saves. Not so Harm. And hitting touch ACs is very easy, at least against dragons. Point taken. Generally the "the enemy can use it too" excuse is only valid as long as you fight full adventuring parties. As soon as the enemy can't for example cast spells or use vorpal weapons these overpowered things mean a quick win for the PCs. Agreed, which accounts for my initial confusion about the term "broken". In this particular instance, the dragons essentially have all the powers of the party, including a Vorpal weapon. And the DM understands the rules better than the players.
Animae_Draconum 12-12-06, 04:55 PM	I honestly dont see whats so hard about 2 dragons. The campaign I play in took down an epic dragon @ ECL 12 I think I've said enough on this. A_D
Boid 12-12-06, 05:28 PM	The campaign I play in took down an epic dragon @ ECL 12 Uhh...different application of the rules and/or different DM style? That's all that could account for a victory of ECL 12 over a Great Wyrm. Don't they just have an explicit "Immune to ECL < 17" in their stat block? ;)
Pangeon 12-12-06, 05:44 PM	Hmmm... Haste = Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity, anyone? :D Reverse Gravity allows no save or SR, and even though Prismatic Wall does, that's still 14 (what goes up must come down...) caster level checks and about half as many saves. Note, however, that this won't work on flying creatures, so you'll have to use it on Dragon # 2 when he gets out of the Force Cage, or stop either from flying. I know there's a psionic power that does that, Brain Lock or something...
PhaedrusXY 12-12-06, 07:03 PM	As already mentioned, readying an action to cast a Prismatic Wall in front of the flying dragon is nasty, too. They can't stop in mid-air, because they have a minimum forward momentum.
robnie 12-12-06, 08:44 PM	Dragons are suppsed to be EXTREMLY powerfull. In my dms campaign fighting a dragon i EXPECT to die i expect half our group to at least but these dragons areant the new ones. You have to kill either the head or chest and it will flyif you kill its legs and spells only dmg the over all hp so my suggestion disenergate and hope for a 1 works for me 1 week ago i killed a elite vampire becouse it rolled a 1 :evillaugh
Boid 12-12-06, 10:29 PM	Another area I'm looking into is the Wish spell's ability to create any magic item up to 15,000GP. So far, the Horn of Blasting and Dust of Sneezing and Choking (a cursed item) seem possibly useful. Unfortunately a Wand of Ice is out of the price range.
Derren S. 12-13-06, 01:38 AM	As already mentioned, readying an action to cast a Prismatic Wall in front of the flying dragon is nasty, too. They can't stop in mid-air, because they have a minimum forward momentum. Of course they can stop any time they want. They will stall but that is better then crashing into a prismatic wall. Not to forget that they could use feats like wingover and hover which also allows for an immediate stop.
PhaedrusXY 12-13-06, 03:04 PM	Of course they can stop any time they want. They will stall but that is better then crashing into a prismatic wall. Not to forget that they could use feats like wingover and hover which also allows for an immediate stop.Not all dragons will have those feats. From a hyper-realistic reading of the rules, perhaps you could argue that a flying dragon could stop instantly in response to a Prismatic Wall appearing in front of it. However, even using a "hyper-literal" interpretation, the dragon has to either fly forward, or stall/fall. So if you put the Pristmatic Wall in front of the dragon, but at a 45 degree angle so that the bottom of the wall is under the dragon, it will have no choice but to hit the wall unless it has one of the feats you mentioned, or something similiar.
Derren S. 12-13-06, 03:09 PM	Except that you can only create perfectly vertical wall spells, including prismatic walls. So your trick doesn't work.
Boid 12-13-06, 05:57 PM	Don't tell me they nerfed the "create a stone wall over his head and watch it drop" tactic in 3.5! Arrgghh....
Stormbrand 12-13-06, 06:34 PM	Solars. Spell-like ability. Imprisonment. At will. No save. Touch range. Yes SR. No Spell Turning (because of touch range). How to end a fight in one easy lesson. Fit a Solar with Shield of Faith, Magic Vestement, Righteous Might and then it becomes more terrorfying. Look at 20th level clerics, Storm of Vengeance is a nice start if you can keep the dragons contained. If possible, Dimensional Anchor the dragon in the forcecage to stop him from teleporting out. A good use of Miracle would be to place a protection from fire on all of you at the solar's caster level (so 240 hp).
PhaedrusXY 12-13-06, 06:34 PM	Except that you can only create perfectly vertical wall spells, including prismatic walls. So your trick doesn't work.Oh yeah? What about the dome version of Wall of Ice? After reading the spell, you are right about Prismatic Wall, though.
NightBreeze 12-16-06, 12:24 PM	IIRC harm has the "evil" descriptor so no solar would use it. Anyway, when are you going to play? Don't forget to inform us about how it all ended ;)