Post/Author/DateTime	Post
leroy_brown 03-08-07, 05:57 PM	Monster and situation are unneccessary (I don't want to give away a Spoiler). Suffice is to say we were fighting something on a ledge which kept disappearing back into a lake (it's the BBEG incidentally which should allow some of you to guess which official module we were playing). The DM (god bless him) was allowing it to pop up one round and attack, then next round have a full attack and then 5 foot step back off the side into the water. It was going first in the round and we were pretty spread out to avoid another of its attacks, so it was effectively having two attacks to our one. Suffice is to say we got totalled (again). :weep: My argument is that you cannot use a 5fs in this way - it would have to be a move action. Let's just say things got a bit heated and our DM is threatening not to carry on - he let us escape but only after ditching all our stuff, making the adventure pointless. I'm all for going back and kicking some BBEG ass but want to make sure we get the rules right before we do. I would welcome any input :confused: :confused:
Prator_the_Legendary 03-08-07, 06:01 PM	Actually, knowing the situation would be helpful. Why does it take a move action to get out of the water, but only a five foot step to drop back in? I can think of a few situations where that'd work (ex. fighting on a dock or boat, and the BBEG takes a move action to climb his speed, and then a five foot step to jump into the water again), but for the most part I would think it woud take the same amount of time to move the same distance.
Wayside 03-08-07, 06:07 PM	If all it needs to do is take a 5-foot step backwards and it is the over the water, then yes, it would fall into the water. Just like if you were fighting in the dark and took a 5-foot step back over a chasm.
geekling 03-08-07, 06:15 PM	The DM (god bless him) was allowing it to pop up one round and attack, then next round have a full attack and then 5 foot step back off the side into the water. Supposing this is deep water in the lake. Yes, that is legit. round one: Move action to swim up from bottom to get into position on the ledge. Standard action attack. round two: Full round attack action 5 ft step off the ledge. - Sink to bottom thanks to gravity, not movement.
leroy_brown 03-08-07, 06:21 PM	OKAY *******SPOILER********* It's the Forge of Fury. Shuffling off the side is a maybe, but 5fs is designed for maneuvering in combat. Wouldn't still be hanging in midair (think 3D now) until it's next turn, because according to the PHB you can only move one square when you 5fs - you can't 5fs round a corner? My argument is that to get from the ledge to the water has got to involve some sort of jump so that you can propel yourself when you start swimming and so it has to be a move action.
jeffseadot 03-08-07, 06:36 PM	The five-foot step's main purpose is for maneuvering in combat, and that's exactly what this thing was doing. It's a mean trick, but totally compliant with the rules.
UAMDB 03-08-07, 06:40 PM	Sorry only if this is Loony Tunes. Gravity is always working. He would fall into the water. Otherwise if you where tripped then you would not fall until it was your turn. Also you dont have to propell yourself to start swimming. Actually I like the idea of this type of tactic.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-08-07, 06:40 PM	Gravity isn't suspended for six seconds because you took a 5' step off of a precipice. The tactic is entirely valid, and is an intelligent way for an opponent to fight you if you're sticking to the edge of the water.
SunTzuWarmaster 03-08-07, 06:59 PM	It is allowed. If your DM wanted to be REALLY mean, he would have it do this: Round 1 - Climb up, standard action attack, 5' step back. Now for counter-tactics. Ready an action to attack it when it comes up. Cast Fly, Slow, Web, Black Tentacles, or Hold Monster on it (unfortunately Levitate requires a willing subject).
Dei 03-08-07, 07:11 PM	What's the BBEG attacking with? If it's a weapon then a) He'll need to sheath it to begin his climb check (a move action) and b) He'll need to draw it after climbing back out (another move action), this though is only if it requires an actual climb check but from the sounds of things it does. Therefore yes, he can five foot step off the edge and he'll fall into the water but the next round he'll need to sheath the weapon and then will have only a move or standard action left. If he chooses to wait until he's got a full round to climb he can get up there but he'll still have to draw his weapon once he does which is a second move action and thus would consume his whole round. If he's got Quick Draw or is attacking with natural weapons (I'm not familiar with the module) then this won't be a problem but is definately something to bring up with the DM. Also, if you are fighting on the edge of a ledge his climbing onto the ledge would provoke attacks of opportunity if he were climbing into an adgacent square since you threaten squares over the lip of the cliff and if he were not climbing into an adgacent square, how is he able to reach you for his attacks? Another thing, falling damage isn't negated when falling into water, look at the rules for it on page 303 DMG, if this guy is dropping 30+ feet into water, particularly if it's fairly shallow where he's landing, he'll be taking at least some damage.
bobothechimp 03-08-07, 07:47 PM	It is allowed. If your DM wanted to be REALLY mean, he would have it do this: Round 1 - Climb up, standard action attack, 5' step back. Now for counter-tactics. Ready an action to attack it when it comes up. Cast Fly, Slow, Web, Black Tentacles, or Hold Monster on it (unfortunately Levitate requires a willing subject). No, no, no, no, no! You completely miss what a 5-foot step is. A 5-foot step can only be used when it is the only movement in your round.
Arturius1 03-08-07, 09:08 PM	The BBEG is fighting on a ledge? Then it should be a full-round action to go from water to standing on ledge. Move action to swim up, standard action to climb onto the ledge which would invoke an attack of opportunity.
Saytr 03-09-07, 02:30 AM	Did you take your attack of opportunity when he moved (fell) out of your threat range? He certainly wasn't using the withdraw action.
Varia 03-09-07, 02:32 AM	Seems like a legitamate 5-foot step to me. Suggestions- AoO/readied attacks when he's climbing up, and lightning bolts/magic missiles during his water/climbing rounds. As to BBEG weapons, I dont know the module but by the sounds of it we're talking about something using natural weapons. Teeth, claws, tentacles etc, so there's no issue about sheathing/drawing weapons. Another possible trick- Got any way to freeze the water while he's out of it, or wall up his retreat? Especially the freeze thing maybe, if he falls over on the ice (a' la grease spell). Maybe some fun with bear traps or at least caltrops? You DO have some caltrops, dont you?
Cold Napalm 03-09-07, 04:17 AM	Well the only think I can think of, as mention earlier is that you guys seemed to have been robbed of your AoO. You can take a 5 foot step off a ledge just fine after a full round attack, you just draw AoO.
Derren S. 03-09-07, 04:21 AM	5 ft. steps never provoke AoOs. And when the takes the step backwards its unlikely that he is still in the threatened area when he starts to fall unless you have a reach weapon.
Evil DM Mk3 03-09-07, 04:30 AM	This is a very inteligent BBEG. And a very dumb party. This tactic worked for a single reason. YOU LET IT. As soon as he did this once you shoudl have pulled back out of the range so he would have to get out and move towards you. He would not provoke AoO form entering you threatened square and 5ft steps never provoke them. This is very good DMing, although it may be worth a +xp% as mentioned in the DMG under encounter difficulty. This is harder than a regular encounter of this kind, ergo it should give maybe and extra 10% xp.
Cold Napalm 03-09-07, 04:33 AM	5 ft step doesn't...falling off a ledge does. Unless that ledge is exactly 5 feet away he either has to take a move or he takes a "5 ft step" which is more thlike 3 feet before he starts to fall which should very well be within in reach of PC he attacks unless he has reach or such. The DM going since he takes a 5 ft move and falls doesn't draw an AoO because he took a 5 ft step is just taking advantage of the situation. But then again to the OP take note. Write down the rule calls, and when he did it and use it to your advantage later on. If you take a 5 ft step off a cliff to safety and he draws AoO point out how he didn't for his BBEG.
Evil DM Mk3 03-09-07, 04:41 AM	5 ft step doesn't...falling off a ledge does. Unless that ledge is exactly 5 feet away he either has to take a move or he takes a "5 ft step" which is more thlike 3 feet before he starts to fall which should very well be within in reach of PC he attacks unless he has reach or such. No, for this to work the PC needs reach. Observe the dangerous world of aski diagrams, this is a side shot of events, not the usual head down, so down in DOWN, up is UP and so on. P=PC V=BBEG C=Cliff /=Water *=PC's thretened area *P* CCC CCCV////// Then *PV CCC CCC////// Notice the PC does not threaten the square behind the one ocupied by the villain in either situation and so the 5ft step takes his right out of the threttened area. Remember DnD combat works on a grid of 5ft squares. Now if they had gone right up th the ledge and the villain was dumb enough to attack on their left or right they would have had an AoO as the villain fell, but that would require a really dumb BBEG and no indication that is is so is in the post. In any case the BBEG can STILL get around it be steping diagonaly away from the PC. Now if the PC has reach: *P** CCC CCCV////// Then *PV* CCC CCC/////// The PC here gets an AoO both as the villain surfaces and as he drops away. But HE needs reach to pull it off.
leroy_brown 03-09-07, 04:48 AM	[QUOTE=UAMDB;11709326]Sorry only if this is Loony Tunes. Gravity is always working. He would fall into the water. Otherwise if you where tripped then you would not fall until it was your turn. Technically though he has to go through a square which we were threatening (we had it flanked twice), hence I think we should have had AoO's Also you dont have to propell yourself to start swimming. I agree but surely you need to take some sort of jump to make sure you get over the ledge (try stepping into a swimming pool without looking having just smacked someone - I'll dial 911 when you crack your head off the side). The monster in question was a young dragon which had two claws, a bite and a wing buffet attack in addition to using it's breath weapon. I just think we were denied about 7 or 8 AoO's which could have tipped the balance in our favour
KurenaiYami 03-09-07, 04:51 AM	[QUOTE=UAMDB;11709326]I agree but surely you need to take some sort of jump to make sure you get over the ledge (try stepping into a swimming pool without looking having just smacked someone - I'll dial 911 when you crack your head off the side). Is this ledge oddly angled? I can backstep into my pool just fine.
Evil DM Mk3 03-09-07, 04:53 AM	Hmmm, flanking, now that would mean that if it stepped backwards, it would then fall out of a threatened square. So you could have gotten soem AoOs but not in every case, it would require careful planning. Seriously though, pulling back from the damned cliff far enough to stop if doing this is the answer. A dragon is not going to stop attacking puerly becasue the enemy has pulled away a few feet. Oh and if you stand in teh center of an area 5ft by 5ft with one edge of that touching the edge of a pool and move back 5ft, you end up in the pool, straight down. The is even more true of most clifs seeing as they are overhangs.
leroy_brown 03-09-07, 04:57 AM	This is a very inteligent BBEG. And a very dumb party. This tactic worked for a single reason. YOU LET IT. As soon as he did this once you shoudl have pulled back out of the range so he would have to get out and move towards you. He would not provoke AoO form entering you threatened square and 5ft steps never provoke them. This is very good DMing, although it may be worth a +xp% as mentioned in the DMG under encounter difficulty. This is harder than a regular encounter of this kind, ergo it should give maybe and extra 10% xp. No room I'm afraid. The ledge was 5 foot wide. We were spread out a bit thin maybe, but we wanted to avoid being in a line for that breath weapon, and to allow my rogue to flank it.
Cold Napalm 03-09-07, 05:04 AM	Note that your diagram ONLY works if the ledge was EXACTLY 5 ft. If it was more it require a move and less it would indeed draw AoO. In anycase, if the DM calls it it this way, it's fine, the OP just has to remember that when they use it with feather fall to escape encounters off a cliff or set up ambushes up cliffs. In anycase the rogues at least were denied their AoO. Come to think of it, you draw an AoO when they LEAVE your threathen area so when he took that 5 ft step and fell, he left your threathen area so the AoO should have happened anyways. The 5 ft step and uncontolled movement is all part of one thing after all.
Varia 03-09-07, 05:04 AM	Well the only think I can think of, as mention earlier is that you guys seemed to have been robbed of your AoO. You can take a 5 foot step off a ledge just fine after a full round attack, you just draw AoO. What some others have said- the AoO is for climbing onto the ledge, not for the 5-foot step off it later.
leroy_brown 03-09-07, 05:06 AM	So the general consensus is that he could do it, but it probably should have provoked an AoO?? I can live with that. We're going back to kick its black scaly butt anyway
bob_the_great 03-09-07, 08:03 AM	This is a very inteligent BBEG. And a very dumb party. This tactic worked for a single reason. YOU LET IT. As soon as he did this once you shoudl have pulled back out of the range so he would have to get out and move towards you. He would not provoke AoO form entering you threatened square and 5ft steps never provoke them. This is very good DMing, although it may be worth a +xp% as mentioned in the DMG under encounter difficulty. This is harder than a regular encounter of this kind, ergo it should give maybe and extra 10% xp. This point needs to be reiterated since it has only been made once and no one commented on it. After it pulled the tactic once why didn't you back off from the ledge? Anything that happened to the party after that point is simply because the party found itself in a bad tactical situation and didn't do anything about it. Moving backwards 10' would prevent the BBEG from doing the 5' step tactic. Withdrawing entirely and coming up with a group strategy would have prevented what happened. As for AoO's it is DM adjudication. Obviously the 5' step does not provoke. The question is to whether or not falling does. I'd be tempted to rule that the falling is actually part of the 5' step (since you don't step backwards and then fall, it's all part of one motion. the downward movement is free since it's just gravity). If I were playing strictly by RAW i'd give it to anyone to threatened the square the BBEG stepped into (so I'd have stepped back at a diagonal and only suffered one AoO). Nah, if I were running the BBEG it'd pop up on a skinny part of the ledge where it couldn't be flanked and there wouldn't be an AoO issue anyway. Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't be too upset with the DM because you guys allowed the BBEG to own you. He challenged your party and you failed. It happens. It is much better than never being challenged.
UAMDB 03-09-07, 08:44 AM	[QUOTE=leroy_brown;11714374] Is this ledge oddly angled? I can backstep into my pool just fine. Just to clearify, I did not say the part about the pool. I agree I have walked backward into pools and off piers all the time. The only time I got hurt was the one time I did not realize I was about to step off a pier, and tried to catch myself. Also to the OP. You never said anything about flanking the monster, or using reach weapons. If this was the case then you should get AoO. Based on the information that was orginally given to us, our assesment of the situation was correct.
leroy_brown 03-09-07, 08:46 AM	Well, thanks there to "Bob the not-so-great-at-reading-my-previous-post". I'm not really interested in what we should or shouldn't have done. My argument is that the DM was being a bit unfair and kicked our ass because of it. We were in good shape and I believe most monsters in a module should be beatable (even the BBEG - a challenge, yes, but defeatable nontheless), otherwise what's the point in playing?? The odd Total Party Kill is going to happen with bad dicerolling - that's inevitable and totally acceptable - but that wasn't the case here (apart from the Paladin in the party - he'd have been better rolling a d10 ;) ) I've seen reviews of this battle and most other parties seem to be coping. I also run a game and wouldn't have allowed it incidentally - but then I'm good and fair and want my players to have a good time (only killed them once and followed it up with a time travel module that allowed them to come back)
Merestil Haye 03-09-07, 08:54 AM	This point needs to be reiterated since it has only been made once and no one commented on it.Pardon? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11714411&postcount=23) As for AoO's it is DM adjudication. Obviously the 5' step does not provoke. The question is to whether or not falling does. I'd be tempted to rule that the falling is actually part of the 5' step (since you don't step backwards and then fall, it's all part of one motion. the downward movement is free since it's just gravity).Motion as a result of being acted on by an external force is still motion, and still provokes AoOs. See, for example, the rules on Bull Rush. It sets a clear precedent.Bull Rush Results If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)(Emphasis mine).
holylink718 03-09-07, 09:01 AM	No, no, no, no, no! You completely miss what a 5-foot step is. A 5-foot step can only be used when it is the only movement in your round. uhh...no, no, no, no to yourself. It clearly says in the PHB on page 138 that you may make a 5' step before, during, or after a full attack, and on page 144 that this 5' step never provokes an attack of opportunity. And to leroy brown, chill, man. The move is completely legal...just try and lure it out of the water...it'll probably come to you if it has to.
Dei 03-09-07, 10:13 AM	uhh...no, no, no, no to yourself. It clearly says in the PHB on page 138 that you may make a 5' step before, during, or after a full attack, and on page 144 that this 5' step never provokes an attack of opportunity. Both very true but it also says that you cannot perform any other movement during that round. You may take move equivalent actions, you may take standard actions and full round actions but you cannot actually move any distance on the map via movement speed means.
leroy_brown 03-09-07, 10:59 AM	And to leroy brown, chill, man. The move is completely legal...just try and lure it out of the water...it'll probably come to you if it has to. I've asked the Sage - fingers crossed for answer (I'm always chilled - although we probably shouldn't have played this encounter at three in the morning after several bottles of wine :D :D :D ) Lure it out... it's a dragon with a breath weapon dude. It'll just sit in the lake and acidify our asses
bobothechimp 03-09-07, 11:03 AM	uhh...no, no, no, no to yourself. It clearly says in the PHB on page 138 that you may make a 5' step before, during, or after a full attack, and on page 144 that this 5' step never provokes an attack of opportunity. And to leroy brown, chill, man. The move is completely legal...just try and lure it out of the water...it'll probably come to you if it has to. Wait, a full attack is movement now? I specifically stated that a 5-foot step can only be used when it is the only MOVEMENT in your round.
AquaticSpaceChicken 03-09-07, 11:56 AM	It sounds like a legit strategy to me, but correct me if I'm wrong-- if you take a 5' step and fall, you are not jumping or flying neatly down. Shouldn't the dragon end up in a heap at the bottom of the pool? And have to spend its next move action righting itself? Then it could move out of the water, or sit there for a round so it could move and attack on its next turn.
Kursk 03-09-07, 12:28 PM	The five-foot step's main purpose is for maneuvering in combat, and that's exactly what this thing was doing. It's a mean trick, but totally compliant with the rules. Yes, and why I don't allow it. For my game combat is simultaneous as much as possible while still having to have mechanics to simulate it. Silliest combat rule from from 1st/2nd Ed to current.
UAMDB 03-09-07, 01:06 PM	It sounds like a legit strategy to me, but correct me if I'm wrong-- if you take a 5' step and fall, you are not jumping or flying neatly down. Shouldn't the dragon end up in a heap at the bottom of the pool? And have to spend its next move action righting itself? Then it could move out of the water, or sit there for a round so it could move and attack on its next turn. If the dragon did not know the edge was there then maybe. The dragon knowingly stepped off the edge. I take it you never walked off the edge of a diving board. I use to do this all the time as a kid, and I never ended up in a heap at the bottom of the pool.
UAMDB 03-09-07, 01:09 PM	Yes, and why I don't allow it. For my game combat is simultaneous as much as possible while still having to have mechanics to simulate it. Silliest combat rule from from 1st/2nd Ed to current. Silly in that in 2e you could move and take your whole attack action? The 5' step is a side effect of a turn based game mechanic.
Kursk 03-09-07, 01:32 PM	Silly in that in 2e you could move and take your whole attack action? The 5' step is a side effect of a turn based game mechanic. Combat then was considered simultaneous as far as effects went. 5' step was written to be abused. Ala, "I'm standing next to a guy who is pummeling me with a sword. I know, during this hand to hand combat I'm take a step back and fire my bow at him." Sorry, I don't allow that. Not real AT ALL. Tell ya what. You stand toe to toe with me while I'm hacking at you. I'll have a sword and you a bow. Try to step back 5' and loose an arrow. I'd disembowel you without you having a chance to draw the bow back.
waynep27 03-09-07, 01:34 PM	hello as the aforementioned Paladin, who really couldn't hit a barn door, i'll try to explain the layout a bit more. ******* possible spoiler ********** why we carried on with the battle. the ledge is 5 feet wide. we couldn't get back the way we had come as the bridge had collapsed. a couple of our characters are very bad at jumping and didn't fancy ending up in the fast flowing river in heavy armour. Some of the problem for me comes from the five foot step, some from the threatened squares. If you take a five foot step of the cliff (a very low cliff, more a ledge) then gravity takes over and you are in the water. i agree. However you are on the surface of the water and visible, and more than that is more movement than a five foot step and so provokes the attack of oportunity. This means we could have attacked the creature (harder to hit of course) but still possible (except for the Paladin where hitting anything was a complete impossibility) the second point , bear with me W is water , X is rock, - is the ledge, c is a PC and D is Dragon top own view XXXXXXXXXXXXX ------C-C------- 1 WWWWWWWWW XXXXXXXXXXXXX ------C-C------- 2 WWWDDDWWW XXXXXXXXXXXXX -----CDC------- 3 WWWWWWWW given the above diagram, for the creature to enter the space in pic 3, it has to enter one of the 3 spaces in pic 2. the question is if that is underwater is it a threatened square. i believe that the creature has to effectively enter that square above the water to get onto the ledge. It cannot go from underwater to on the ledge without passing though the threatened square and provoking an attack of opportunity. Am i right on these points? but the moral is defiatey not to play till three am after beer wayne
Frugal 03-09-07, 01:52 PM	I looked it up in the adventure and it says the dragon uses a double move to break off.
leroy_brown 03-09-07, 01:52 PM	OMG I've opened a can of worms here. PLease Mr Sage give me an official answer. Cheers for backing me up big guy. I'm going to lend you my D12 in future - okay, you might not land a critical, but you stand a better chance of hitting :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
holylink718 03-09-07, 02:37 PM	Wait, a full attack is movement now? I specifically stated that a 5-foot step can only be used when it is the only MOVEMENT in your round. Chill, my mistake.
holylink718 03-09-07, 02:39 PM	If the dragon did not know the edge was there then maybe. The dragon knowingly stepped off the edge. I take it you never walked off the edge of a diving board. I use to do this all the time as a kid, and I never ended up in a heap at the bottom of the pool. I'll second that. Besides, that lake is his home...I'm sure he's familiar enough with the lake to make such a simple move.
holylink718 03-09-07, 02:50 PM	I've asked the Sage - fingers crossed for answer (I'm always chilled - although we probably shouldn't have played this encounter at three in the morning after several bottles of wine :D :D :D ) Lure it out... it's a dragon with a breath weapon dude. It'll just sit in the lake and acidify our asses First of all, it's a line of acid, so if you place yourselves right, only one of you will get hit by that line. Second, a dragon can only use his breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. Third, ever heard of ranged weapons? Even if you don't have an archer, this can be effective. I'm sure the fighter and rogue (assuming you have them) can hit with a ranged attack fairly often, and the wizard and cleric (once again, assuming that's the build your party is made of) can at least try to hit. It's at least worth a shot. It worked for our party when we went through that adventure. Try strategy, dude. :D Eventually, it'll come to you, especially if you're hitting it a lot with ranged attacks.
Frugal 03-09-07, 03:08 PM	Just following up, I should clarify that the module says "double move" but mentions avoiding attacks of opportunities so I assume it means the "withdraw" full-round action. I also took a look at the map for the area and I don't see how you got trapped in one specific area as you describe. Yes, it's a tight area in spots but there's certainly no need to just sit there and let the dragon keep popping up and hit you like you were. Either you failed to use the area to your advantage or your DM really played around with the layout (either intentionally or accidentally). A little tactical movement and some ranged weaponry would have really helped you out. Also, I'm a little curious how your rogue was able to flank the dragon without being in the water if it was always either in the water or standing right on the edge?
Saytr 03-09-07, 04:08 PM	He can either occupy the square or not. If he CAN occupy (sp?) the square in mid-air, he takes the 5ft step into the square and the round ends. If he CANNOT occupy the square, he cannot take a 5ft step into it. You can't end your movement in an illegal space (a space you cannot occupy) So, can he occupy the square or can't he? I don't think there's a better way to adjudicate this.
UAMDB 03-09-07, 04:16 PM	Combat then was considered simultaneous as far as effects went. 5' step was written to be abused. Ala, "I'm standing next to a guy who is pummeling me with a sword. I know, during this hand to hand combat I'm take a step back and fire my bow at him." Sorry, I don't allow that. Not real AT ALL. Tell ya what. You stand toe to toe with me while I'm hacking at you. I'll have a sword and you a bow. Try to step back 5' and loose an arrow. I'd disembowel you without you having a chance to draw the bow back. I'm not saying it is realistic. I really dont want to get into a this is realistic, but you have to supend belief on this argument. My only point is that if you have a turn base system, then loopholes like this is going to happen. BTW If you charge me, can I run before you get to me? Since it happens at the same time, who goes first. Since we all have the same base speed(for the most part), you would never catch me in open field.
Kursk 03-09-07, 04:20 PM	I'm not saying it is realistic. I really dont want to get into a this is realistic, but you have to supend belief on this argument. My only point is that if you have a turn base system, then loopholes like this is going to happen. BTW If you charge me, can I run before you get to me? Since it happens at the same time, who goes first. Since we all have the same base speed(for the most part), you would never catch me in open field. Charge? We're face to face and you just stepped back and I matched your step. I agree though about turn based systems. I just eliminate abuses when they rear their ugly head.
Frugal 03-09-07, 04:30 PM	He can either occupy the square or not. If he CAN occupy (sp?) the square in mid-air, he takes the 5ft step into the square and the round ends. If he CANNOT occupy the square, he cannot take a 5ft step into it. You can't end your movement in an illegal space (a space you cannot occupy) So, can he occupy the square or can't he? I don't think there's a better way to adjudicate this. So you're saying you can't run off a cliff (using any type of movement) unless you have enough remaining movement to cover the fall?
DrakePD 03-09-07, 04:45 PM	I copied these from Rules of the Game Archive All About Movement (Part One-Seven) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg Hampered Movement: When conditions don't let you move as quickly as your speed would normally allow, your movement is hampered. When a creature enters a square where movement is hampered, it pays at least 10 feet of movement instead of the usual 5 feet. When moving diagonally into a square where movement is hampered, a creature pays at least 15 feet of movement. Uneven surfaces, slippery surfaces, obstacles that leave you room to pass but require you to climb over them or detour around them, thick vegetation -- all these can hamper your movement. (IMO Water normally is considered Hampered) A creature cannot charge, run, or take a 5-foot step when its movement is hampered. Take a 5-Foot Step: You're moving when you take a 5-foot step. You can't take a 5-foot step during a round when you perform any other movement, and you cannot take a 5-foot step if your movement is hampered, if your movement is reduced to half speed, or if your current speed is 5 feet or less. As with the withdraw action, you must use a mode of movement for which you have a speed rating. (IMO Falling in water is not a mode of movement, it is movement) Speeds and Skills A creature has a speed rating for each kind of movement it can use. Most creatures have a single speed rating for land speed. Other possible speed ratings include burrow, climb, swim, and fly. The Monster Manual Glossary includes a wealth of detail on speeds. A creature with only a land speed can climb or swim by making an appropriate skill check, but cannot charge, run, withdraw or take a 5-foot step while doing so. That's the chief difference between climbing or swimming with a climb speed and using the Climb or Swim skill. Climb and Swim aren't the only skills that involve movement. In Part 3, we'll compare and contrast speed ratings and the skills that help landbound creatures mimic them. We'll also examine skills that function as part of movement. Climb A creature with a climb speed must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 (see Checks without Rolls, page 65 in the Player's Handbook), even if rushed, distracted, or endangered. It also gets a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. A successful check allows it to move its climb speed up down, or across the wall or slope as a move action. If it chooses an accelerated climb (see Climb, page 69 in the Player's Handbook), it moves at double the listed climb speed (or its land speed, whichever is less) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. A creature with a climb speed retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing. Most creatures with climb speeds don't have hands, though many use some sort of appendage to climb. Those with appendages must have them free to climb. A creature can cling to a wall with one appendage while it casts a spell or takes some other action that requires only one appendage. A limbless creature, such as an ooze, never has to worry about having any appendages free -- it can just climb. If the creature takes damage while climbing, it makes a Climb check against the DC of the slope or wall to avoid falling. (It can take 10 on the check.) Using the Climb Skill: A creature using the Climb skill to climb without a climb speed can take 10 on the check only when not rushed or threatened. It loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) while climbing, and it cannot take a 5-foot step or withdraw while climbing. A creature uses the Climb skill as a move action, and climbing is movement. With a successful check, the climber moves at one quarter its land speed when climbing (or one half land speed if it makes an accelerated climb). On a failed check, the creature doesn't move at all (but still uses up a move action) if the check failed by 4 or less. The creature falls if the check fails by 5 or more. See the Climb skill description for other details. (I am not sure but I don't think a dragon has a climb speed listed, he was definatly climbing out of the water to attack.) All Climbers: Creatures cannot charge or run while climbing, even if they have Climb speeds. Swim A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its swim speed without making Swim checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check it makes to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. The creature always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if rushed, distracted, or endangered or when swimming in stormy water. The creature can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. It also can charge, withdraw, or take a 5-foot step. Unlike creatures using the Swim skill, a creature with a swim speed does not have to make a Swim check each hour to avoid nonlethal damage. (Some dragons have a swim speed, but this is mode of movement, just like flying. You can fly faster if you go down, but free falling still counts as movement.) Using the Swim Skill: A creature that doesn't have a swim speed must make a Swim check to move through the water when its feet don't touch the bottom. A successful check allows the creature to move through the water at a quarter of its current land speed as a move action or at half its current land speed as a full-round action. If the check fails by 4 or less, the creature makes no progress through the water. If the check fails by 5 or more, the creature goes underwater (if the creature is underwater already, there's no extra effect for failing a Swim check by 5 or more). Swimmers that don't have swim speeds must make an extra Swim check (DC 20) for each hour they spend swimming. If the check fails, the swimmer takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Creatures without swim speeds can charge (provided they can move at least 10 feet before attacking), but they cannot run, withdraw, or take a 5-foot step. IMO this was a real stretch of the rules. Falling is not a mode of movement but it still counts as movement. Basically he moved into the water to start another form of movement, (Swimming) Which can still be combined with land movement. AOO since this was not the only thing he did in that round. (Withdraw) Also IMO if the dragon was Swimming out of the water and then climbed up on the shore he also provoked AOO.
UAMDB 03-09-07, 05:17 PM	Charge? We're face to face and you just stepped back and I matched your step. I agree though about turn based systems. I just eliminate abuses when they rear their ugly head. Not to be a smart but, but the charge was seperated from the other part of the conversation. That means its a different subject. Being face to face does not matter anymore. You have stated that you do not like the turn basis. Every thing happens simo. So if you charge me, and i run back at the same time, does no one every get charged?
Kyoti00 03-09-07, 05:52 PM	Supposing this is deep water in the lake. Yes, that is legit. round one: Move action to swim up from bottom to get into position on the ledge. Standard action attack. round two: Full round attack action 5 ft step off the ledge. - Sink to bottom thanks to gravity, not movement. I am going to have to disagree with this scenerio. Let's start with the BBEG on the ledge and assume the PCs have already gone in the round. Round 1 - BBEG takes full attacks, and 5 foot move off of ledge. As he sinks he leaves the threat range of the PCs envoking an Attack of Opertunity. Round 2 - Standard action to swim to surface, Move action to get out of the water. Round 3 - Repeat Round 1
Kursk 03-09-07, 06:05 PM	Not to be a smart but, but the charge was seperated from the other part of the conversation. That means its a different subject. Being face to face does not matter anymore. You have stated that you do not like the turn basis. Every thing happens simo. So if you charge me, and i run back at the same time, does no one every get charged? The perils of answering while on a conference call. Well, a person can choose whether or not to stand against a charge. Just like real life.
holylink718 03-09-07, 06:44 PM	I am going to have to disagree with this scenerio. Let's start with the BBEG on the ledge and assume the PCs have already gone in the round. Round 1 - BBEG takes full attacks, and 5 foot move off of ledge. As he sinks he leaves the threat range of the PCs envoking an Attack of Opertunity. Round 2 - Standard action to swim to surface, Move action to get out of the water. Round 3 - Repeat Round 1 Sorry, dude. The PHB beats you. It clearly says in the PHB on page 138 that you may make a 5' step before, during, or after a full attack, and on page 144 that this 5' step never provokes an attack of opportunity. :D
Kyoti00 03-09-07, 07:09 PM	Sorry, dude. The PHB beats you. It clearly says in the PHB on page 138 that you may make a 5' step before, during, or after a full attack, and on page 144 that this 5' step never provokes an attack of opportunity. :D No, the 5' step does not provoke the AOO, but sinking into water out of threat range does... that is, unless the 5' step takes them to a square where no one can attack.
Nathreet 03-09-07, 08:30 PM	pg. 144: "You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed. For example, if you don't have a climb speed listed, you can't use climbing to make a 5-foot step. Similarly, you can't take a 5-foot step when swimming unless you have a listed swim speed." I'm gonna say no, unless the BBEG has a listed fly speed. Or unless he has a listed climb speed and is holding on to something. Dropping back into the water is okay, since dropping is a free action. He can simpy 5' step and drop. Also pg. 77 ("JUMP"): Hop Up: You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or a small boulder with a DC 10 jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement. And standing up from prone is a move action (pg. 141)
hunterc311 03-09-07, 09:41 PM	round two: Full round attack action 5 ft step off the ledge. - Sink to bottom thanks to gravity, not movement. I don't understand why everyone is using "gravity" as an excuse for this to work here. Gravity is not an instant process. It takes time to sink, assuming if the drop is even straight down. You cannot make a full attack, take a free 5 foot step backwards, and sink all the way to the bottom of a lake, in 6 seconds. Not unless the lake is only 5 feet deep. As always, 6 seconds of time has to pass in each round. To make a full attack, that takes up your 6 seconds. You have no time left to sink in that round. You end the round in the water but at the surface. Everyone can then attack you as you are at the level of their feet. They even get higher ground bonuses. Imagine that. Remember that combat does not "stop" at the end of each round. It is a constantly flowing event. Rounds only exist to measure combat. Again, round 2 ends with the BBEG perfectly visible to all party members on the surface of the lake. Round 3 should begin with either his descent into the lake - because even though he is not actively moving to the bottom of the lake, he is taking time TO get to the bottom of the lake - or his taking a move action to get out of the water and on to solid ground, then a standard for whatever.
Frugal 03-09-07, 10:24 PM	I don't understand why everyone is using "gravity" as an excuse for this to work here. Gravity is not an instant process. It takes time to sink, assuming if the drop is even straight down. You cannot make a full attack, take a free 5 foot step backwards, and sink all the way to the bottom of a lake, in 6 seconds. Not unless the lake is only 5 feet deep. So if I have my actions, use up all my movement (either in moving or by doing a full-round action and a 5' step) and then on an opponents action I'm pushed off a cliff, I don't fall until my next action, that's what you're saying.
holylink718 03-09-07, 10:40 PM	So if I have my actions, use up all my movement (either in moving or by doing a full-round action and a 5' step) and then on an opponents action I'm pushed off a cliff, I don't fall until my next action, that's what you're saying. :bounce: Check-mate.
holylink718 03-09-07, 10:44 PM	No, the 5' step does not provoke the AOO, but sinking into water out of threat range does... that is, unless the 5' step takes them to a square where no one can attack. There's 5' between him and the party...unless they have a reach weapon, he's not provoking anything. And, in that case, they'd get an attack of opportunity. But only then. :D
hunterc311 03-09-07, 11:48 PM	So if I have my actions, use up all my movement (either in moving or by doing a full-round action and a 5' step) and then on an opponents action I'm pushed off a cliff, I don't fall until my next action, that's what you're saying. Absolutely. You do not fall until your next action. Like I said, combat is a constant flow. It does not "stop" when each new round begins. You do not "stop" in midair and just float there. Everything is happening at once. You are pushed, and anyone that goes after that "in turn" is going basically at the same general time as you are. They can swoop in to save you as they see you being pushed towards the edge, reaching you as you are in midair and beginning your fall -- depending on how close they are to you, they can even grab at your body (Touch AC attack roll), catch you (DEX check) and pull you back onto solid ground (STR check) if you are only pushed a few feet off the edge -- because you are being pushed at the same time that they are taking their action. Again, initiative is just a combat measuring mechanism. People need to remember this. If nobody saves you by the time it comes to your next turn, then with nothing supporting you under your feet, your actions are limited to falling or some sort of anti-falling action. You fall based on falling rules, and so forth.
hunterc311 03-09-07, 11:50 PM	:bounce: Check-mate. Not even close. Are you even paying attention to what is being said? Combat is consistent. It does not happen in blocks with stoppage at any point. That's just a game mechanic to bring order to what would otherwise be chaos. I can't repeat that enough.
Merestil Haye 03-10-07, 05:03 AM	Absolutely. You do not fall until your next action.Nonsense. You start falling immediately you find yourself unsupported. That's why Featherfall has a casting time of a free action you can take at any time, even when it's not your turn. If you bother to crunch the numbers, assuming Earth gravity and neglecting wind resistance, by the time a full round has passed the poor sap has fallen 576 feet, and can be assumed to have reached terminal velocity (he's not far off, mainly because of that air resistance we neglected).
holylink718 03-10-07, 09:23 AM	Nonsense. You start falling immediately you find yourself unsupported. That's why Featherfall has a casting time of a free action you can take at any time, even when it's not your turn. If you bother to crunch the numbers, assuming Earth gravity and neglecting wind resistance, by the time a full round has passed the poor sap has fallen 576 feet, and can be assumed to have reached terminal velocity (he's not far off, mainly because of that air resistance we neglected). Just give it up. Hunterc311 isn't listening to reason. In my opinion, the only way someone could catch you as you fall is if they delayed up until this point, and are choosing to act now. Otherwise, no can do. Gravity is an instantaneous effect. Hey, Hunterc311, jump off a cliff and I'll help you in 6 seconds...we'll see if you're still there. :D
Millennium 03-10-07, 10:11 AM	The tactic was legitimate: falling doesn't count as movement, and the DM used the mean trick of having the rising platform move rather than the BEEG himself. The counter to this tactic is to just step back. Force the BBEG to come to you, stepping away from the platform in the process. Then his tactic no longer works.
Frugal 03-10-07, 12:54 PM	Absolutely. You do not fall until your next action. Like I said, combat is a constant flow. It does not "stop" when each new round begins. You do not "stop" in midair and just float there. Everything is happening at once. You are pushed, and anyone that goes after that "in turn" is going basically at the same general time as you are. They can swoop in to save you as they see you being pushed towards the edge, reaching you as you are in midair and beginning your fall -- depending on how close they are to you, they can even grab at your body (Touch AC attack roll), catch you (DEX check) and pull you back onto solid ground (STR check) if you are only pushed a few feet off the edge -- because you are being pushed at the same time that they are taking their action. Again, initiative is just a combat measuring mechanism. People need to remember this. If nobody saves you by the time it comes to your next turn, then with nothing supporting you under your feet, your actions are limited to falling or some sort of anti-falling action. You fall based on falling rules, and so forth. Okay, then how about if I didn't use my move action? Do I fall up to my move rate? More, less, hover? What if I get pushed off before my action that round? Do I fall, and take falling damage and then find myself unable to get up on my action because I've already "used" my movement? How is this even remotely fair? With initiative order my next action could be immediately after the push (in which case no one can save me) but if I acted just before the push then my party has a full round in which multiple people can attempt to rescue me?
hunterc311 03-10-07, 01:43 PM	So what some of you are saying is that, despite the laws of physics and reality, and the fact that combat is constant and happening at the same time to everyone involved... certain things happen faster and more immediately than others? Are you saying that if someone falls off a ledge next to me, I cannot make a grab at them to save their life, if I am operating in the same time and space of reality that they are? As happens in countless movies, for instance? Or are they all just making it up in those movies, even though we're actually watching it happen with our own eyes. Must all be camera tricks? And to the original point, water and air are very different. If I fall into water from an equal level (meaning I am not building up any momentum from, say, a diving board 20 feet above the surface of the water), and choose not to attempt to stay afloat, I can sink instantly and defy the laws of physics that state that I have to sink at only a certain speed? You are all using combat mechanics to defeat physics. Combat mechanics exist to supply order to chaos. Not to allow you to change the laws of physics and decide how quickly certain events are allowed to happen.
hunterc311 03-10-07, 01:47 PM	Just give it up. Hunterc311 isn't listening to reason. In my opinion, the only way someone could catch you as you fall is if they delayed up until this point, and are choosing to act now. Otherwise, no can do. Gravity is an instantaneous effect. Hey, Hunterc311, jump off a cliff and I'll help you in 6 seconds...we'll see if you're still there. :D Try to understand that your reason is flawed. I am using the laws of physics. You won't help me in 6 seconds, that would be after my NEXT turn. You are helping me during THIS "6 second block", in which we are all moving at the same time. The exact same 6 second period in time. If I am pushed off a cliff at my "second number 5", then on your "second number 5", you can grab at me. Same "round", same second in time and space. Again, stop using combat mechanics as a way around physics. You'll fail every time.
hunterc311 03-10-07, 01:52 PM	Okay, then how about if I didn't use my move action? Do I fall up to my move rate? More, less, hover? What if I get pushed off before my action that round? Do I fall, and take falling damage and then find myself unable to get up on my action because I've already "used" my movement? How is this even remotely fair? With initiative order my next action could be immediately after the push (in which case no one can save me) but if I acted just before the push then my party has a full round in which multiple people can attempt to rescue me? When your "turn" for that round comes up, you simply hold your action. You do nothing. You wait for the next person to go who can make an attempt to save you. As I said in the prior post, everyone is going in the same "6 second block" of time. Everyone has the same 6 seconds to work with. Whichever second of the "block" that you were pushed on, anyone else can use their same second of that "block" of time to react if they can reach you. By holding your action, you are not suspending yourself in midair, you are simply not taking a game-mechanic-related action (let's say you are flailing from the push) until someone else takes their game-mechanic-related action, BOTH of which are happening on the same second in time and space. I realize I keep repeating myself, but the concepts are the same and they hold the same weight (pun?) in every instance.
Kursk 03-10-07, 01:54 PM	Try to understand that your reason is flawed. I am using the laws of physics. You won't help me in 6 seconds, that would be after my NEXT turn. You are helping me during THIS "6 second block", in which we are all moving at the same time. The exact same 6 second period in time. If I am pushed off a cliff at my "second number 5", then on your "second number 5", you can grab at me. Same "round", same second in time and space. Again, stop using combat mechanics as a way around physics. You'll fail every time. 3.x has done away with any pretense at simultaneous combat. As a result, players that haven't played an RPG game that has combat system geared that way can't think that way. Most DM's don't know how to adjust the combat rules...
Frugal 03-10-07, 02:13 PM	We're dealing with an abstraction, theoretically it's all simultaneous but for convenience it's broken into rounds with everyone taking their turn during the round, it's turn-based. If we allow for things to be simultaneous then we should add a couple other things, like being able to run away from a charge (no one would be able to charge then because they'd never catch you, if you had the same speed). Or if I kill someone on my action then they should still get their actions for the same round, how do we handle them retroactively drinking a potion, or moving out of reach? I could go on and on here. The problem is, if you attempt to make combat simultaneous in one regard (falling) then you open up a huge can of worms in other regards. Sorry, you killed that skeleton and then great cleaved through 4 more, but on the BBEG's action he cast a negative energy area effect that healed up the 1st skeleton so you didn't deal enough damage to kill it, and the other 4 didn't take any damage then because of your great cleave attacks. I've played strategy games which have attempted to represent things happening simultaneously to an extent. If memory serves, Axis and Allies allowed units killed to still shoot back on that turn before being removed. I know I've played other games where you move a unit, then your opponent moves, and the same for combat. It's not perfect but it does capture things a little better. The thing is, those are with simplistic games where the number of actions you can take are extremely limited. With D&D the added complexity of what can happen in a round of combat means you just have to accept that a turn-based system is the best way to represent it and that means you have to throw physics out the window sometimes. Let's assume for a moment though that we do things your way, I get pushed and "hang" there until my next action (which I can delay), now then someone else who's already acted (in this round, same 6s chunk of time yes) can somehow move 30' or more and catch me before I fall in the next round? Now remember, they've already acted in this round so that should be during the same 6s chunk of time that I was acting and was pushed off the cliff, so clearly they're 30' away at the time I was pushed, but you're saying that it makes more sense to the laws of physics that they can move and catch me?
Grier 03-10-07, 02:34 PM	Reality and D&D are mutually exclusive. The best thing you can do is try to adjudicate the rules in a way that works for you. The turn-based system does result in some oddities, and if you want to change it you're allowed to. Just don't assume everyone else will see it that way. The way I, personally, would adjudicate it, is this: The 5-foot step after the full attack is legal and does not provoke AOO. However, the fall is not part of the 5-foot step, and this is movement out of a threatened square and does provoke AOO. I am going by the diagrams above, showing the ledge being one square deep - AKA, the PC's threaten three squares "in the mountain" and three squares above the water. The dragon is falling out of one of these squares. As for the timing of the fall, I would adjudicate that anyone who has not gone - AKA anyone who is not already attacking this round - can forgoe their action this round to attemp to save the falling PC. They would have to decide before seeing the result of another person's attempt - if they're waiting to see if someone else grabs him, then they're not moving fast enough to grab him. Again, these issues arise because of the turn-based, square grid based combat system that D&D has, and part of the DM's job is to adjudicate the rules when they break down like this. Individual DM's decisions can and will vary. BTW, adjudicate (http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/adjudicate)
KurenaiYami 03-11-07, 04:39 AM	Just to clearify, I did not say the part about the pool. I agree I have walked backward into pools and off piers all the time. The only time I got hurt was the one time I did not realize I was about to step off a pier, and tried to catch myself. Also to the OP. You never said anything about flanking the monster, or using reach weapons. If this was the case then you should get AoO. Based on the information that was orginally given to us, our assesment of the situation was correct. Just to clarify, I'm fairly confident I could backstep off any part of my pool unless there were steps. Also, you put the wrong name in the quote. I said that, not Leroy.
KurenaiYami 03-11-07, 04:44 AM	So what some of you are saying is that, despite the laws of physics and reality, and the fact that combat is constant and happening at the same time to everyone involved... certain things happen faster and more immediately than others? No, not despite the laws of physics and reality, but in line with them. Are you saying that if someone falls off a ledge next to me, I cannot make a grab at them to save their life, if I am operating in the same time and space of reality that they are? As happens in countless movies, for instance? Or are they all just making it up in those movies, even though we're actually watching it happen with our own eyes. Must all be camera tricks? Not covered by the rules, but I wouldn't let you wait until your turn to do it. And to the original point, water and air are very different. If I fall into water from an equal level (meaning I am not building up any momentum from, say, a diving board 20 feet above the surface of the water), and choose not to attempt to stay afloat, I can sink instantly and defy the laws of physics that state that I have to sink at only a certain speed? You fall into the water at a certain speed, yes, you fall slower once you hit, but in this case, it means little, as you're already out of reach. You are all using combat mechanics to defeat physics. Combat mechanics exist to supply order to chaos. Not to allow you to change the laws of physics and decide how quickly certain events are allowed to happen. No, but in combat, you fall immediately. This is why tripping works. When you trip in your games, do they wait a round to fall?
Chalkboard_Sonata 03-11-07, 02:50 PM	And to the original point, water and air are very different. If I fall into water from an equal level (meaning I am not building up any momentum from, say, a diving board 20 feet above the surface of the water), and choose not to attempt to stay afloat, I can sink instantly and defy the laws of physics that state that I have to sink at only a certain speed? I don't know if you've ever been in a pool, but those standard diving boards you see everywhere are 1 meter high (So likely at least the height of ledge above the lake). Now, I spend a good proportion of every day leaping off those boards, and I can't count the number of times I've just stepped off the edge or slipped or whathaveyou. Let me say this, you are greatly overestimating the retarding effects of water upon your speed. Without propelling myself downward at all, I know for a fact that you can reach the bottom of a 12 foot tank within six seconds. Gravity, even underwater, accelerates you quite a bit faster than any limbs could. So sure, it's not instantaneous, but compared to normal human modes of locamotion, it might as well be.
Zankue 03-11-07, 03:07 PM	Don't forget when you make a jump and your still in mid air when you move ends than on your next turn you conitue the jumps taking a 5 foot step into the water doesnt necesarily make you sink, and he doesnt stay in the air for 6 seconds in battle one round is 6 seconds, which means that everyone's moving at the same time also this thing can swim, and most things that can swim are bouyent, and they dont just sink to the bottom which means he needs to swim down to get out of your reach, the DM wasn't playing this well
PhaedrusXY 03-11-07, 04:10 PM	Black dragons have both a swim and fly speed. So he doesn't have to "climb" out of the water. He can swim to the top, and fly to the ledge, all as a single move action. He could also take a 5 foot step to fall off the ledge and back into the water, but I agree that the PCs would get AoOs on him, if they could still reach him after the five foot step (i.e. they 10 ft. reach).
holylink718 03-11-07, 05:37 PM	Black dragons have both a swim and fly speed. So he doesn't have to "climb" out of the water. He can swim to the top, and fly to the ledge, all as a single move action. He could also take a 5 foot step to fall off the ledge and back into the water, but I agree that the PCs would get AoOs on him, if they could still reach him after the five foot step (i.e. they 10 ft. reach). Exactly. If they had a 10 ft. reach. Hunterc311 just doesn't get that.
Frugal 03-11-07, 07:49 PM	Don't forget when you make a jump and your still in mid air when you move ends than on your next turn you conitue the jumps Yes, but I think that's purely to prevent people from abusing the jump rules to get more movement in a round then they normally could.
Ack 03-11-07, 10:11 PM	I'm tired here (been up over 12 hours) but isn't there something you are all missing? Two things. 1) Moving into a threatened square doesn't draw an AoO - but climbing within the threatened area of someone does. If you are prone beside someone and then you climb to your feet, that draws an AoO. If nothing else, the GM should have given you one every time he popped up out of the lake (it took a move action, so it wasn't a free action). Being whanged around the skull every time it popped up would have reduced its enthusiasm a little. EDIT: Someone else did bring this up. I said I was tired. 2) Moving 5' backward, in an orderly and measured manner, does not draw an AoO. But the subsequent fall into water moves the BBEG more than five feet. So the GM has the option to rule it either a) a Withdraw action, which precludes any attack on the next round (and technically can't be done, as it's already attacked this round) or b) a Move action - which draws an AoO. So really, you should have been getting it coming and going.
Ack 03-11-07, 10:37 PM	Yes, there are loopholes in D&D - the "take a 5 foot step back and then shoot the guy who's hacking you" being one of the most blatant. For that, and many others, I can only think of one in-game solution. Everyone declares their action (if obviously physical) or writes it down (if inobvious). Then they roll their initiative. Those who go first get a chance to react to (and possibly interfere with) the actions of those who go later, before the slower characters actually get to go. And if the slower character had an action declared that was going to obviously lead to great harm, all he can do is abort it. He can't change it. Mind you, this puts a huge load of importance on initiative. Now that we've waved the flag for realism, let's get back to the debate :D
AquaticSpaceChicken 03-11-07, 11:24 PM	If the dragon did not know the edge was there then maybe. The dragon knowingly stepped off the edge. I take it you never walked off the edge of a diving board. I use to do this all the time as a kid, and I never ended up in a heap at the bottom of the pool. I was trying to differentiate between making a controlled dive via a move action and taking an uncontrolled fall via a 5' adjustment. I thought jumping was a move action. I know if you miss your jump you fall prone. But I admit the falling rules are kind of fuzzy and I don't know that it ever says you land prone. Apparently if you try to jump and fail you land on your face but if you fall >SPLAT< you land on your feet. I admit if the dragon takes a 5' adjustment he does fall in the water, but there should be nothing controlled about that fall because it wasn't made with a move action. I think the dragon still could use Tumbling if he had it. I still say he should have to use a move action to recover from his fall the next round. I don't see how he could land all pretty and in perfect position under the circumstances. If I were DMing and a player tried that maneuver, that's how I'd rule it.
Varia 03-12-07, 01:59 AM	I don't understand why everyone is using "gravity" as an excuse for this to work here. Gravity is not an instant process. It takes time to sink, assuming if the drop is even straight down. You cannot make a full attack, take a free 5 foot step backwards, and sink all the way to the bottom of a lake, in 6 seconds. Not unless the lake is only 5 feet deep. Youre not paying attention- NOBODY is saying he sinks to the bottom of the lake as a result of falling in either in that same round or in any other amount of time, merely that he falls into the water, which is presumably far enough away from the players for them to be unable to reach him with their weapons. If its not far enough away (they have sufficiently long reach weapons or whatever) then of course they just full attack him on their turn. In the first 1 second of a fall (1/6th of a round) the faller, in this case the bbeg, will fall about 15 feet, more than enough to exceed the reach of most PC weapons. Falling is a free action for the target that can happen out of initiative order whenever something occurs to cause it. It is NOT an action by the PC, per se, and does not count as movement by the PC for purposes of determining what else they can do in the round, any more than being bull-rushed back 25 (for example) feet counts as 25 feet of a targets movement that round, or being moved 20 feet to the edge of an explosive spell blast does. Certain types of involuntary (to the moved target) generate AoO's (eg-bull rush movement) while other types (eg-explosive spell blasts) do not. I'm in the "gravity movement does not" camp. For those who like the whole "full retreat" thing- gravity is faster movement than full retreat. Therefore I think there's no reason for gravity to provoke an AoO any more than being moved by explosive spell effects does. The whole "5-foot move is the only move you can make while full attacking" thing applies to VOLUNTARY, UNDER-YOUR-OWN-POWER movement. It does NOT apply, in any way, shape or form, to any other movement, any more than those other movements apply to any other limits to a characters movement during his turn. You can be chain bull-rushed 330 feet away from where you started (maybe the local football team is performing some kind of wierd synchronised practice drill?), fall off a 1000 foot cliff from the last bull rush into a catapault, and then be fired 1/4 of a mile over the moat into the castle (by the artilleryman with a readied action) and it doesnt affect your ability to perform any kind of movement action on your next turn, assuming youre still standing up at the end, even though you've been moved half a mile already. Any other reading of the rules promptly runs into the even more silly problems of being unable to fall down till your turn, being unable to be fired by a catapault till your turn rather than when the firer pulls the trigger, falling off a cliff and not being able to move till you've paid the movement debt from the fall etc. Whatever alternate ideas anyone wishes to suggest MUST address those issues as well to be valid.
Varia 03-12-07, 02:10 AM	Gravity, even underwater, accelerates you quite a bit faster than any limbs could. Er, what? Gravity doesnt accelerate you in water AT ALL, let alone faster than your limbs can, because, you know, people FLOAT... Well ok, its only people with air in their lungs that float. People without air in their lungs do sink, but then theyre not people, theyre drowning victims... :P
KurenaiYami 03-12-07, 02:20 AM	Er, what? Gravity doesnt accelerate you in water AT ALL, let alone faster than your limbs can, because, you know, people FLOAT... Well ok, its only people with air in their lungs that float. People without air in their lungs do sink, but then theyre not people, theyre drowning victims... :P Also fat people. Fat = Buoyant Very hefty myself, I have trouble fighting my own buoyancy to get to the bottom of my 11 foot pool.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 11:56 AM	So if I have my actions, use up all my movement (either in moving or by doing a full-round action and a 5' step) and then on an opponents action I'm pushed off a cliff, I don't fall until my next action, that's what you're saying. I think this is correct, you do not start you next move until its your turn again. (It seems weird, but you do not acually hang out in mid air. All of these actions are taking place pretty much the same time) WIZARD Goes on a 25 20 feet away Shoots magic missle at you. FIGHTER Goes on a 23 In 5 ft square in front of you Attacks you Full Round Action and takes a 5 ft step to his right. You go on a 20 Full Attack on Fighter Barbarian Goes on an 18 Bull Rushes you 5 ft and pushes you off the cliff. This causes you to provoke AOO from Fighter from leaving a square he threatens. I dont remember if a you get an AOO on the Barb for bull rushing? WIZARD Goes Again and Hits you with another Magic Missle. FIGHTER Takes a 5 foot step to the edge of the cliff and attacks you Full round action. You Go and Fall (100 Ft Cliff) As you are falling you draw a potion of levitate from your belt and drink it. (you have one hand free) This would provoke AOO from the Fighter and the Barb since you did not withdraw. I think this all seems totally weird, but I think this is how the game mech work? Am I wrong?
Ack 03-12-07, 12:01 PM	Er, what? Gravity doesnt accelerate you in water AT ALL, let alone faster than your limbs can, because, you know, people FLOAT... Well ok, its only people with air in their lungs that float. People without air in their lungs do sink, but then theyre not people, theyre drowning victims... :P It's interesting to note that for the vast majority of people, the only difference between sinking and floating is the volume of air in their lungs. Very simply put, the average density of a human being is effectively the same as that of the same volume of water. If you inhale, you float more. If you exhale, you sink. It's that finely balanced. I have the same problem due to being overweight, incidentally. Fat is less dense than muscle, so I have trouble staying underwater.
Kursk 03-12-07, 12:06 PM	You Go and Fall (100 Ft Cliff) As you are falling you draw a potion of levitate from your belt and drink it. (you have one hand free) ... I think this all seems totally weird, but I think this is how the game mech work? Am I wrong? You forgot, Barbarian goes splat. Falling = 32'/sec/sec = 1st second 32' end of 2nd second, an additional 64' = ~96'.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 12:18 PM	You forgot, Barbarian goes splat. Falling = 32'/sec/sec = 1st second 32' end of 2nd second, an additional 64' = ~96'. The Barb did the bullrush, he actually pushed you off the cliff but did not fall himself since he stopped in the 5ft square at the edge of the cliff (The one you were just in). I think this is correct?
Kursk 03-12-07, 12:22 PM	The Barb did the bullrush, he actually pushed you off the cliff but did not fall himself since he stopped in the 5ft square at the edge of the cliff (The one you were just in). I think this is correct? Correct. Got it mixed as "you" wasn't listed with a class. But nonetheless, whoever fell went splat. :D
Frugal 03-12-07, 12:35 PM	I think this all seems totally weird, but I think this is how the game mech work? Am I wrong? Yes, you're wrong. As someone else pointed out already, if this was the way it worked then when you tripped someone they wouldn't fall until their action. You fall immediately.
Kursk 03-12-07, 12:40 PM	Yes, you're wrong. As someone else pointed out already, if this was the way it worked then when you tripped someone they wouldn't fall until their action. You fall immediately. No. You're FROZEN in time and space until your action. That's why you can watch someone charge 60' towards you and it is impossible to run. You must stand there, take the lance to the heart, and die if it isn't your turn to move.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 12:47 PM	Yes, you're wrong. As someone else pointed out already, if this was the way it worked then when you tripped someone they wouldn't fall until their action. You fall immediately. I always assumed that the fall in a trip attack was because of the trippers action. If someone trips you, you fall because its part of the trip attack. Just like if someone bull rushed you, you move as part of the bull rush?
Frugal 03-12-07, 12:47 PM	No. You're FROZEN in time and space until your action. That's why you can watch someone charge 60' towards you and it is impossible to run. You must stand there, take the lance to the heart, and die if it isn't your turn to move. Again, then how does tripping work. I trip you but it's not your move, so you can't fall until your action right? It's the exact same thing, effects are resolved immediately. I trip you, you fall. I get bull rushed off a cliff, I fall.
Kursk 03-12-07, 01:00 PM	Again, then how does tripping work. I trip you but it's not your move, so you can't fall until your action right? It's the exact same thing, effects are resolved immediately. I trip you, you fall. I get bull rushed off a cliff, I fall. No, it's all sequential. See my example on the charging scenario above.
Frugal 03-12-07, 01:04 PM	No, it's all sequential. See my example on the charging scenario above. So are you honestly saying that if I trip someone they don't fall until their action? I know it's turn-based but you still resolve the effects of actions or spells immediately. Otherwise I might as well argue that if I'm bull rushed I don't move until my round.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 01:06 PM	If falling is a free action and the only free action that you can perform on some one elses turn is to speak, then you still do not fall until its your turn. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a You cannot use a free action during another creature's turn. Speaking is an exception; you can speak during another creature's turn (see page 144 in the Player's Handbook). Remember, however, that you're limited to just a few sentences. If you know where an invisible creature lurks, you can't tell a colleague where the creature is the moment your colleague acts (you could ready such an action, however -- see Part Four -- and you'd really be using a variant of the Aid Another action). So when you are pushed off a cliff you do not start to fall, until its your turn. However you can scream!
DrakePD 03-12-07, 01:09 PM	So are you honestly saying that if I trip someone they don't fall until their action? I know it's turn-based but you still resolve the effects of actions or spells immediately. Otherwise I might as well argue that if I'm bull rushed I don't move until my round. I would say that you fall as part of the trip on the trippers turn, Basically he bull rushed you to the ground. You can only fall on your turn (As a free action). This is the way I understand this. Tho I have been wrong before, and logically thinking it is pretty weird, but sometimes the game mech are.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 01:48 PM	So if this is all correct, then if you were bull rushed off a cliff and you are not falling until your turn, and you fall as a free action, would you then be able to draw a potion from your belt ( a free action if you have a least a +1 attack bonus and did this as part or a move action) and then drink the potion (a standard action) before you went splat? I guess it depends on how far you fall? I would say if you fall over 60 feet you could still perform an action before you hit the ground. Does that seem about right? I know feather fall is a swift action (Same as a free action) which still can only be done on your turn. (another reason why you do not start to fall until its your turn, because you would go splat)
PhaedrusXY 03-12-07, 01:58 PM	Falling IS NOT AN ACTION. If what you are saying was true, then unconscious creatures would not be able to fall, as they can't take actions. If you threw one over the edge of a cliff, they'd just hang there in mid-air, until they woke up. How does that sound for a reasonable game mechanic interpretation?
Merestil Haye 03-12-07, 02:14 PM	It's a mistake to say that falling = movement. A move action is something the creature decides to take and he moves under the power of his own muscles or the power of a spell cast on him. Falling is not a decision the creature makes - it is completely involuntary and caused by forces which the creature does not control. The game provides other examples of movement caused by purely external forces, the most obvious of which is Bull Rush. The correct conclusion is that if you can be moved by a Bull Rush, you can be moved by the force gravity exerts on you. You fall immediately. You would fall 16' in one second, 64' in two - not (as incorrectly stated) 32' then 64' for a total of 96'. If you want to work it out for yourself, the recipe is s=ut+½at2 wheres=distance moved under constant acceleration. u=velocity at the start of the period. a=acceleration. t=time spent moving.It's easy enough to determine that in freefall, a humanoid moves 576' in the first round. Just how this can be accommodated with regular movement rates is beyond me if freefalling is part of regular movement. And please don't try and hide behind the "this isn't real so physics doesn't work" nonsense. There are several underlying assumptions, one of which is that gravity does work as we experience on earth. Where do you think the maximum falling damage comes from? Terminal velocity is approximately 120mph. The maximum you can roll on 20d6 is 120. Tell me that's coincidence and I won't believe you. The only people who could with any authority are the original designers of D&D. Physics fails exactly where magic gets involved. That isn't the case for falling movement.
Frugal 03-12-07, 02:15 PM	If falling is a free action and the only free action that you can perform on some one elses turn is to speak, then you still do not fall until its your turn. No, I'm saying that falling isn't an action at all, it's an effect (often from actions).
DrakePD 03-12-07, 03:17 PM	Falling IS NOT AN ACTION. If what you are saying was true, then unconscious creatures would not be able to fall, as they can't take actions. If you threw one over the edge of a cliff, they'd just hang there in mid-air, until they woke up. How does that sound for a reasonable game mechanic interpretation? Unconscious or not they will still fall, I am sure the guy that got pushed off a cliff does not “want" to take this action. He does have to do this action though. (Gravity) If we were to say this is correct that falling is not an action, and when you are pushed off a cliff and you automatically fall right away, how far do you fall? Until you hit the ground? Lets say you have feather fall memorized, when do you get to cast this? I think this is a free action to do so, which can only be done on your turn. (Which would mean you go splat before you can use it?) Though it could be an immediate action, which could be done at anytime, even on some one else’s action. (I don't have the PHB with me) But I am still concerned about this because how far do you fall? In the case of feather fall I believe you would fall more than 5 feet and then start to feather fall at a rate of 60? (I don’t have PHB handy to check this) So you are pushed off a cliff, you use an immediate action to cast feather fall, which kicks in after you fall 5 feet. So now you’re falling at a movement rate of 60' per round. (Still falling, just allot slower) When does this action take place? Or is feather falling an action and falling not an action? So if I can fall 500 feet in one round (over 1200 in the next rounds) vs. 60 feet in one round neither of these are actions? I agree if I grab someone who is unconscious and toss them off a cliff then they will fall, the question is when does the unconscious person start to fall? The unconscious person had an initiative just before yours. You pick him up (Move Equivalent) and throw him off the cliff. (Let’s say you have a throw unconscious body range of 10 feet) You take the full negatives to get max range on the unconscious body) -20 to throw it 100 feet? (I think that’s right) If the cliff is over 100 feet then the body does not hit the ground yet. The wizard goes after you and has fly cast on himself. He could dive down close enough to the body and cast feather fall on it, or hit it with a fire ball, etc and it still has not hit the ground yet. As soon as it’s the unconscious body’s initiative, it would automatically fall, and since you threw it, the body has reached terminal velocity by now. (Or so I would guess) The body would most likely hit the ground if it was less than 1300 feet. (100 feet for your throw plus 200 feet per second)
Suzaku455 03-12-07, 03:31 PM	What's the BBEG attacking with? If it's a weapon then a) He'll need to sheath it to begin his climb check (a move action) and b) He'll need to draw it after climbing back out (another move action), this though is only if it requires an actual climb check but from the sounds of things it does. Therefore yes, he can five foot step off the edge and he'll fall into the water but the next round he'll need to sheath the weapon and then will have only a move or standard action left. If he chooses to wait until he's got a full round to climb he can get up there but he'll still have to draw his weapon once he does which is a second move action and thus would consume his whole round. If he's got Quick Draw or is attacking with natural weapons (I'm not familiar with the module) then this won't be a problem but is definately something to bring up with the DM. Also, if you are fighting on the edge of a ledge his climbing onto the ledge would provoke attacks of opportunity if he were climbing into an adgacent square since you threaten squares over the lip of the cliff and if he were not climbing into an adgacent square, how is he able to reach you for his attacks? Another thing, falling damage isn't negated when falling into water, look at the rules for it on page 303 DMG, if this guy is dropping 30+ feet into water, particularly if it's fairly shallow where he's landing, he'll be taking at least some damage. Why does he needs to sheath his weapon when he climbs ladder? Obviously you haven't carried a bulky item up a ladder before.
Frugal 03-12-07, 05:23 PM	Unconscious or not they will still fall, I am sure the guy that got pushed off a cliff does not “want" to take this action. He does have to do this action though. (Gravity) Except you can't take any actions when you're unconcious. If we were to say this is correct that falling is not an action, and when you are pushed off a cliff and you automatically fall right away, how far do you fall? Until you hit the ground? I'd go with that figure of around 500' per round, in other words, unless it's really far to the bottom you go splat right away. Lets say you have feather fall memorized, when do you get to cast this? I think this is a free action to do so, which can only be done on your turn. (Which would mean you go splat before you can use it?) Though it could be an immediate action, which could be done at anytime, even on some one else’s action. (I don't have the PHB with me) Featherfall used to be written as being a free action that you could take at any time (evidence that falling doesn't happen on your round), it's been revised to be an immediate action (since they were created). But I am still concerned about this because how far do you fall? In the case of feather fall I believe you would fall more than 5 feet and then start to feather fall at a rate of 60? (I don’t have PHB handy to check this) It's not stated but since it's an immediate action it literally takes no time to cast so I'd say that you can cast it as soon as you cross the edge of the cliff, thus falling no distance before it takes effect and falling your 60' that round. So you are pushed off a cliff, you use an immediate action to cast feather fall, which kicks in after you fall 5 feet. So now you’re falling at a movement rate of 60' per round. (Still falling, just allot slower) When does this action take place? Or is feather falling an action and falling not an action? Again, falling is not an action, evidenced by the fact that it can effect things that can't take actions (boulder, unconscious or dead creatures, etc) So if I can fall 500 feet in one round (over 1200 in the next rounds) vs. 60 feet in one round neither of these are actions? Yes, neither is an action.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 06:16 PM	Except you can't take any actions when you're unconcious. I'd go with that figure of around 500' per round, in other words, unless it's really far to the bottom you go splat right away. Featherfall used to be written as being a free action that you could take at any time (evidence that falling doesn't happen on your round), it's been revised to be an immediate action (since they were created). It's not stated but since it's an immediate action it literally takes no time to cast so I'd say that you can cast it as soon as you cross the edge of the cliff, thus falling no distance before it takes effect and falling your 60' that round. Again, falling is not an action, evidenced by the fact that it can effect things that can't take actions (boulder, unconscious or dead creatures, etc) Yes, neither is an action. Actually you do get try something every round you are unconscious. You try to stabilize or you loose another hp, I would assume from blood loss. This is not spelled out as an action but it still happens. So lets look at this another way and see if it still works. I am a wizard standing on the edge of a cliff that’s 400 feet tall. I could use a free action to tell my friend the paladin who goes before me to push me off the cliff, I fall 340 feet (free action), use feather fall (free Action) to fall the last 60 feet (free action) Land on the ground and walk 30 feet or pick up something (Both Move Equivalent) and cast dim door and be back on the cliff edge all in 6 seconds? Another look at this, You have a sling in your hand, you move 30 feet draw out a bullet (Free action) Load and throw the bullet at a person standing on the edge of a cliff who is at your max range. You hit him and he falls to -1 hp. (Does he fall down?) Yes. When? Well automatically. He is on the edge of the cliff and falls off. The cliff is 2000 feet tall. He will hit the ground before anyone else gets to go? Feather falling the 60 feet counts as a move action. Just like flying 60 feet or doubling 60 feet. Falling still takes time. A max velocity of around 200 feet per second. Falling still counts on your turn. It is a free action (voluntary or involuntary). I don't remember but going prone from standing is a free action? So when you fall unconscious you get an "Involuntary" free action (Gravity) to fall down? If this is the case then it can be used to explain why trip works on the trippers turn and not on your turn. Now I could be totally wrong about this, but that’s why these are discussion boards. :D
Frugal 03-12-07, 07:07 PM	Actually you do get try something every round you are unconscious. You try to stabilize or you loose another hp, I would assume from blood loss. This is not spelled out as an action but it still happens. That doesn't mean it's an action, things can happen to you on your turn in the round and not be an action. I'd be more inclined to say that since it's not defined as an action it isn't one. I am a wizard standing on the edge of a cliff that’s 400 feet tall. I could use a free action to tell my friend the paladin who goes before me to push me off the cliff, I fall 340 feet (free action), use feather fall (free Action) to fall the last 60 feet (free action) Land on the ground and walk 30 feet or pick up something (Both Move Equivalent) and cast dim door and be back on the cliff edge all in 6 seconds? Well as I already said, feather fall is an immediate action. I'd be inclined to count featherfall distance as your move because it's going at a slower rate than gravity. You have a sling in your hand, you move 30 feet draw out a bullet (Free action) Load and throw the bullet at a person standing on the edge of a cliff who is at your max range. You hit him and he falls to -1 hp. (Does he fall down?) Yes. When? Well automatically. He is on the edge of the cliff and falls off. The cliff is 2000 feet tall. He will hit the ground before anyone else gets to go? I did already say the 500' (or 576', whatever it was) figure was a reasonable figure for 1 round of falling. I'd have to check if there's anything in the DMG on this. Feather falling the 60 feet counts as a move action. Just like flying 60 feet or doubling 60 feet. Falling still takes time. A max velocity of around 200 feet per second. I'm inclined to agree on the featherfall counting as your move action. Actually, since it's 30'/round and most medium creatures have a base move of 30' I'd be inclined to count it as a double move action. But 200'/s of falling gives you plenty of time to do some falling in the same round. I prefer to look at the 6s round concept as a rough guideline, maybe some rounds are a little longer (you ever looked at what you can cram into a round? Even with a single PC) while other rounds are probably quicker. I think getting overly hung up on the 6s figure for 1 round causes problems. Unless you really need to know how much time has passed, in which case using it as an average is okay. I don't remember but going prone from standing is a free action? So when you fall unconscious you get an "Involuntary" free action (Gravity) to fall down? If this is the case then it can be used to explain why trip works on the trippers turn and not on your turn. Falling prone by choice might be but that doesn't mean that falling is a free action because most free actions (all but speaking?) can't be done on someone else's action. Otherwise, you'd have people taking their free action to drop prone to make them harder to hit with a ranged weapon.
DrakePD 03-12-07, 07:18 PM	So someone pushes me off a cliff and if I don't have something like feather fall (Immediate action) you just go splat? You can't even attempt to grab a root, use your whip on someone’s leg, pull out a potion, cast dim door, teleport, or even activate your boots of flying. You just fall 500 feet or less (Ground stopping you)? This seems odd.
Merestil Haye 03-12-07, 07:55 PM	So someone pushes me off a cliff and if I don't have something like feather fall (Immediate action) you just go splat? You can't even attempt to grab a root, use your whip on someone’s leg, pull out a potion, cast dim door, teleport, or even activate your boots of flying. You just fall 500 feet or less (Ground stopping you)? This seems odd.It's odd because you persist in your belief that falling is an action. It is not. Neither is making a saving throw. It would be entirely reasonable to ask for a save to see if you can grab the root to save yourself from falling. The DM sets the DC, and you roll your dice. Then if you fail, down you go. Then there was this suggestion of yours.I am a wizard standing on the edge of a cliff that’s 400 feet tall. I could use a free action to tell my friend the paladin who goes before me to push me off the cliff, I fall 340 feet (free action), use feather fall (free Action) to fall the last 60 feet (free action) Land on the ground and walk 30 feet or pick up something (Both Move Equivalent) and cast dim door and be back on the cliff edge all in 6 seconds?Did you miss what I said earlier? As soon as you drag magic into it, real world physics walks away in disgust. When you cast Featherfall, you are no longer freefalling but moving at a rate defined by your decisions. So the fall becomes your movement (it's 60' per round). Oh, and make an Int check to time the casting of Featherfall right please.
Frugal 03-12-07, 08:13 PM	So someone pushes me off a cliff and if I don't have something like feather fall (Immediate action) you just go splat? You can't even attempt to grab a root, use your whip on someone’s leg, pull out a potion, cast dim door, teleport, or even activate your boots of flying. You just fall 500 feet or less (Ground stopping you)? This seems odd. That's how it works, yep. I'd probably be nice and give a reflex save to grab the edge unless there were some circumstances that it didn't make sense.
Varia 03-12-07, 09:51 PM	If you want to work it out for yourself, the recipe is s=ut+½at2 wheres=distance moved under constant acceleration. u=velocity at the start of the period. a=acceleration. t=time spent moving.It's easy enough to determine that in freefall, a humanoid moves 576' in the first round. Just how this can be accommodated with regular movement rates is beyond me if freefalling is part of regular movement. Terminal velocity is approximately 120mph. The maximum you can roll on 20d6 is 120. Tell me that's coincidence and I won't believe you. The only people who could with any authority are the original designers of D&D. Yay! I'm not the only person on the planet who remembers that formula! :) However, he who lives by the formula dies by the formula, so- Actually I will tell you its a coincidence. It takes about 6 seconds to reach terminal velocity (assuming the 120mph figure is correct). In 6 seconds you fall roughly 500 feet, whereas you reach 20 dice of damage after only 200 feet. So.... :P
DrakePD 03-13-07, 12:28 AM	So if the math adds up to 500 feet to fall in one round. (6 seconds) (Thanks Varia) I am not a Math Wiz, but this sounds correct. (Merestil Haye) Were is this time coming from? It gets borrowed from the guy who pushed you off the cliff? It’s a hidden Time? The guy pushed you off the cliff. (Standard Action) About 3 secs? He then loans you the rest of his 6 seconds to fall? If he moves 30 feet and then uses a standard action to push you off the cliff, you fall 50 feet (1 Second)?? Falling takes time. Call it an action, call it a Free Action, call it a non action, but what ever you call it still takes time to fall. I agree that making a saving throw is not an action, however grabbing something is a standard action. You can use a standard action as part of a saving throw? So basically if I am falling 500 feet which takes 6 seconds, the whole encounter stops until I hit the ground? What if the player had some sort of non magical item, like a parachute? If he cannot do anything (Since it’s not his turn) could he pull the draw string? This is prob a free action, (basically Drawing a weapon?), but free actions can only be performed on your turn unless you speak. (Sorta like casting an immediate action like feather fall which is a quick verbal cast?) So maybe your can't fall a full 500 feet if someone pushes you off a cliff? How far do you fall? 1 sec of falling? 2? 3? And what happens during this time? Everyone Else Watches until you are done and you just hold your breath and hope to land on an air mattress?
Ace_of_time 03-13-07, 01:12 AM	your group is thinking to hard. next time this happens have everybody ready an action for when he pops back out. it doesn't have to be an attack just anything. it doesn't even matter if he is hit by what ever you ready because if your readyy action happen the you start every combat round after on that new turn in the round. then your group will go first then the thing. also try to bullrush him away from the ledgeor grapple and hope for the best. you could also try some oil of slipperness on the place where he come out stand from prone does prevoke AOO.
Merestil Haye 03-13-07, 07:26 AM	(Merestil Haye) Were is this time coming from? Time passes for all combatants simultaneously. What, do you think that each person stands frozen except when it's his turn? It gets borrowed from the guy who pushed you off the cliff? It’s a hidden Time? The guy pushed you off the cliff. (Standard Action) About 3 secs? He then loans you the rest of his 6 seconds to fall? If he moves 30 feet and then uses a standard action to push you off the cliff, you fall 50 feet (1 Second)?? Falling takes time. Call it an action, call it a Free Action, call it a non action, but what ever you call it still takes time to fall. Of course. But, you don't spend movement to freefall. And it happens while the round is going on. I agree that making a saving throw is not an action, however grabbing something is a standard action. You can use a standard action as part of a saving throw?That is nonsense. Grabbing something is not a standard action. Certain things do not need an action to perform, as if they did they would never happen. Saving throws are one of those things, as they almost always occur on another creature's turn. That despairing reflexive grab is something a creature always has time to make. So basically if I am falling 500 feet which takes 6 seconds, the whole encounter stops until I hit the ground?Why would it? It'll carry on while you plummet. If it becomes necessary to work out how far you've fallen, I'll come up with something that probably involves the relative position of the creature now acting within the initiative cycle and the creature that was acting when you started your fall. It's really not that difficult once you know the formulae, provided you're prepared to approximate a bit. What if the player had some sort of non magical item, like a parachute? If he cannot do anything (Since it’s not his turn) could he pull the draw string? This is prob a free action, (basically Drawing a weapon?), but free actions can only be performed on your turn unless you speak. (Sorta like casting an immediate action like feather fall which is a quick verbal cast?) You don't have a parachute, because we're not playing d20 Modern. If you had something that could mimic one, it would have a method of activation that determines when it can be used. So maybe your can't fall a full 500 feet if someone pushes you off a cliff? How far do you fall? 1 sec of falling? 2? 3? And what happens during this time? Everyone Else Watches until you are done and you just hold your breath and hope to land on an air mattress?*sigh* If you can't fall 500' you fall as far as you can. Since you know distance, acceleration and starting speed you can determine how long it took to fall that distance. The DM works out how long it takes for you to hit the bottom, then determines when in the round that translates to. Creatures then take actions as normal. If they try and save you the DM knows whether you're still falling or have hit the ground, and adjudicates accordingly.
starfire311 03-13-07, 09:16 AM	It seems to me that this is not quite how it works. You get a 6 second block to act during your turn. you fall 150ft over the 1st round of falling. if you take a full round action, then use a 5ft step, your round ends immediatly, unless you have something like a free/immediate/swift action left. This means you have no time left to fall, you got off the edge, in the last second of your 6 second block. Now it is everyone elses turn to act. Then on your turn you will start falling and fall 150ft, then on each subsequent turn you will fall 300ft unless something stops you. if you fall 20ft or more into water, and the water is 10ft or deeper you may take non-lethal or even lethal damage, just because you fall into water does not mean you take no damage.
Frugal 03-13-07, 09:38 AM	The problem is that we have a concept of a 6s round and that all action during that round is supposedly simultaneous. However, for mechanical simplicity we use a turn-based system to represent this. This creates several issues with reality but is necessary for the simplicity. For example, as has already been mentioned, someone can charge 60' at you and swing a sword and apparently you just stand there the whole time. Then your action to swing back is supposedly at the same time, but clearly it had to happen after the charger travelled 60', so how do we reconcile that he took 6s worth of actions and you took 6s worth of actions that clearly had to happen after that, yet on paper they happened during the same 6s period of time? The answer is that you just go with it, the rules say what you can do in a round and that a round is 6s, just accept it. Trying to map reality too closely to a turn-based system is just going to cause things to fall apart.
holylink718 03-13-07, 09:58 AM	The problem is that we have a concept of a 6s round and that all action during that round is supposedly simultaneous. However, for mechanical simplicity we use a turn-based system to represent this. This creates several issues with reality but is necessary for the simplicity. For example, as has already been mentioned, someone can charge 60' at you and swing a sword and apparently you just stand there the whole time. Then your action to swing back is supposedly at the same time, but clearly it had to happen after the charger travelled 60', so how do we reconcile that he took 6s worth of actions and you took 6s worth of actions that clearly had to happen after that, yet on paper they happened during the same 6s period of time? The answer is that you just go with it, the rules say what you can do in a round and that a round is 6s, just accept it. Trying to map reality too closely to a turn-based system is just going to cause things to fall apart. Actually, you're not just standing there...you'd probably be doing what you could to prepare for the attack...like lifting your sword into a parrying position, or trying to jump to the side, or something like that. It's not Final Fantasy, guys...you don't just stand there until it's your turn...you duck, parry, block, roll, etc.
Ace_of_time 03-13-07, 10:15 AM	it would not matter how far he can fall once he is in the water he would sink not fall. so I'm thinking he is only 10' up on the ledge so that means he falls 10' hits the water sinks 10' from the fall. Next round swim back up to repeat the again. and just for everyone everything get 6s so if he take a attack for 3s he would still have 3s to fall but I count the fall as a different thing in the round so in my world he would still fall for 6s. ether way he is not that high out of the water to worry about that. 10' would even take 1s by the time you take your turn he would all be in the water.
Archangel62 03-13-07, 10:37 AM	If falling is an action then I'm making a permanent floating staircase of dead people.
Frugal 03-13-07, 12:12 PM	Actually, you're not just standing there...you'd probably be doing what you could to prepare for the attack...like lifting your sword into a parrying position, or trying to jump to the side, or something like that. It's not Final Fantasy, guys...you don't just stand there until it's your turn...you duck, parry, block, roll, etc. Yes, and I totally agree with this. However, my point was that if I act later in the round then clearly my 6s worth of actions wasn't during the same time as yours and I couldn't take them until after the charger closed the distance. I might be doing other things (like preparing for the charge) but I can't take my set of actions (1 standard and 1 move or 1 full-round action and a 5' step) until after that charge. To suggest otherwise is preposterous; I attacked the charger before he closed? I moved away before he closed? etc, etc. The 6s/round concept is an abstract one, as I mentioned earlier, the way I prefer to look at it is that it averages out to 6s/round but any individual round can vary in length. The charging situation is one of the clearer indications of this.
DrakePD 03-13-07, 02:24 PM	OK I messed up the quote button, but I think you guys can figure out my responses. :rolleyes: Time passes for all combatants simultaneously. What, do you think that each person stands frozen except when it's his turn? Agreed. The initiative rules exist to make sure that everyone involved in a battle gets a chance to act once during each round of combat. A round remains 6 seconds long no matter how many combatants become involved in a battle. This is possible because, as noted earlier, everyone who acts in a round is assumed to act more or less simultaneously. Of course. But, you don't spend movement to freefall. And it happens while the round is going on. No I never thought that a person falling has to take a move action to perform this. I agree that they will fall automatically. I just think they will not fall until it’s there turn, however I am open minded that they may fall some distant on another persons turn. That is nonsense. Grabbing something is not a standard action. Sorry, I was incorrect. Manipulating an Item: Moving, lifting, storing, retrieving, or otherwise handling an item is a move action. See Table 8-2 in the Player's Handbook for variations on this action and which variations provoke attacks of opportunity. Certain things do not need an action to perform, as if they did they would never happen. Saving throws are one of those things, as they almost always occur on another creature's turn. That despairing reflexive grab is something a creature always has time to make. I agree that certain things do not take an action to perform, these are called non actions. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a A nonaction is something that effectively takes you no time at all, but still requires some attention or effort. The rules don't go into any detail about the kinds of nonactions in the game, but for our purposes they fall into three categories: Aggressive Nonactions: AOO Nonactions with Other Actions: Reactive Nonactions: I believe that a saving throw falls into the Reactive Nonaction catagory. Why would it? It'll carry on while you plummet. If it becomes necessary to work out how far you've fallen, I'll come up with something that probably involves the relative position of the creature now acting within the initiative cycle and the creature that was acting when you started your fall. It's really not that difficult once you know the formulae, provided you're prepared to approximate a bit. So depending on when the action that sent you falling, will determine how far you fall in 6 seconds? The first 6 seconds you can fall up to 500 feet, and after that you will fall 1000 feet per round. The DM will have to determine how far you have fallen at any given point in the round by looking at what initiative you fall on vs. what initiative someone may try to react to your fall (Including yourself)? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a A nonflyer (or flyer falling through the air) freefalls rather than stalls. A creature in freefall drops 500 feet the first round and 1,000 feet each round thereafter. While in freefall, a creature can attempt a single action each round. It must make a Dexterity or Strength check (creature's choice, DC 15) to avoid dropping any item it tries to use. Spellcasting is possible, but doing so requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) and if the spell has a material component, the creature must first check to see if it drops the component. You don't have a parachute, because we're not playing d20 Modern. If you had something that could mimic one, it would have a method of activation that determines when it can be used. So someone who jumps off a cliff would ready an action to pull the release cord. If he was pushed off, he better hope his initiative is after he is pushed or the fall is greater than 500 feet. Or he will go splat. *sigh* I understand your frustration here, but not to fear, we are actually getting somewhere now! ;) If you can't fall 500' you fall as far as you can. Since you know distance, acceleration and starting speed you can determine how long it took to fall that distance. The DM works out how long it takes for you to hit the bottom, then determines when in the round that translates to. Creatures then take actions as normal. If they try and save you the DM knows whether you're still falling or have hit the ground, and adjudicates accordingly. This seems very logical, and I will try it next time I DM a game. I am going to call falling an immediate action that starts as soon as you fall. Not sure why the RAW does not just come out and say this some where. Characters fall all the time, in pits, off cliffs or even dismount a flying mount.
Vintar 03-13-07, 02:34 PM	Sorry if this was already mentioned - didn't read past the 1st page. However, it seems to me that the group just needs to ready actions when the boss is in the water and everything will be evened out. Or am I missing something?
The White Sorcerer 03-13-07, 05:18 PM	It doesn't matter if falling isn't an action, it still takes time. Let's say it takes six seconds, 'kay? On whose turn do those six seconds occur? The falling person has already spent his six second turn on running off the cliff, clearing the edge with the last 5-foot step.
Ace_of_time 03-13-07, 05:41 PM	It doesn't matter if falling isn't an action, it still takes time. Let's say it takes six seconds, 'kay? On whose turn do those six seconds occur? The falling person has already spent his six second turn on running off the cliff, clearing the edge with the last 5-foot step. here is another ex on the same lines If you in a room fight orcs and there is a trap door right behide you leads to a pit trap 10' down in to water. you use a full round action to attack twice and then take a 5' step back to give one of your allies a place to charge the orc. trap door open you people are telling me that your DM is going to let you just hang in mid air until your next turn. I don't think so he is going to ask you for a reflex saves which you can choose to fail on purpose if you want to. let just say you roll and get a 3 +6 and the DC 15 and fall in the trap. even if in this case with no damage your DM is going decide what happens with the fall first before going to the next round. If this same trap had no bottom you would fall max feet for the round then on your next turn you start from there but you are still falling as you act.falling should a environmental condition not an action taken by the PC or DM.
Aeromus 03-13-07, 05:52 PM	I didn't read all 5 pages. However, my outlook on this is that the creature could NOT take a 5 foot step off the ledge, to fall into the water. As it's not actually "stepping on anything" and doesn't have a perfect flight capacity, it technically "jumped." And, if it jumped/fell then it couldn't have taken a full attack, so in the very LEAST it should have provoked EVERY time it "cheat-stepped" into the water, off the cliff.
The White Sorcerer 03-14-07, 06:13 AM	falling should a environmental condition not an action taken by the PC or DM. But when, during the six second round, does the falling occur? Does the faller's turn actually contain twelve seconds instead of six? Round Character 1: Full attack, 6 seconds Character 2: Runs over the edge of a cliff, 6 seconds Character 3: Move and attack, 6 seconds Character 4: Casts a long spell, 6 seconds All of this takes place during the same six seconds. Total time passed: 6 seconds The six-second fall occurs after C1 full attacks, C2 runs over the edge, C3 moves and attacks, and C4 casts a spell. How can it happen during the same round?
Merestil Haye 03-14-07, 07:38 AM	But when, during the six second round, does the falling occur? Does the faller's turn actually contain twelve seconds instead of six?The round is six seconds long. Round Character 1: Full attack, 6 seconds Character 2: Runs over the edge of a cliff, 6 seconds Character 3: Move and attack, 6 seconds Character 4: Casts a long spell, 6 seconds All of this takes place during the same six seconds. Total time passed: 6 seconds The six-second fall occurs after C1 full attacks, C2 runs over the edge, C3 moves and attacks, and C4 casts a spell. How can it happen during the same round?Because freefalling is not constrained by limits on movement. How can it be? As I said above, the way to handle it is to determine the number of creatures with actions, and treat each individual action as one fraction of the round. With some approximation if there's a lot of creatures or difficult math. Taking an example of four sixth level characters in combat with two trolls at the edge of a cliff. Let's specify the initiative order as C1, C2, M1, M2, C3, C4. C4 is a wizard who has the Featherfall spell prepared. Combat starts with C1 and C2 readying themselves. M1 runs up and attempts to bullrush C2 off the cliff, taking two attacks (from the readied action of C2 and the AOO) but succeeding in pushing C2 5' back and off the cliff. C2 is now hanging in midair. M2 charges up and attacks C3, positioning himself so that he can threaten C4. One second has now passed in the round, and C2 has fallen an appropriate distance (it's 16 feet, if you're interested). C3 now acts, tumbling round the battle to get flanking position on M2, and attacks once. Two seconds have passed. C2 has now fallen 64 feet. C4 now acts, but can not affect C2 with a Featherfall because his spell has a range of 40 feet. C2 has now fallen for three seconds - 144 feet. Of course the DM knows how far down C2 can fall, and may have already informed the party that they hear a "crunch" as C2 hits the ground, during whichever creature's turn is appropriate. If the cliff was 50' tall, for example, that would be after C3 acted. Does that help explain how it works?
Frugal 03-14-07, 08:44 AM	But when, during the six second round, does the falling occur? Does the faller's turn actually contain twelve seconds instead of six? Round Character 1: Full attack, 6 seconds Character 2: Runs over the edge of a cliff, 6 seconds Character 3: Move and attack, 6 seconds Character 4: Casts a long spell, 6 seconds All of this takes place during the same six seconds. Total time passed: 6 seconds The six-second fall occurs after C1 full attacks, C2 runs over the edge, C3 moves and attacks, and C4 casts a spell. How can it happen during the same round? Why is it that you're perfectly willing to accept that 4 sequential 6 second actions (sequential in that it's turn-based and later actions clearly take place after earlier ones even though it's supposedly simultaneous) takes a total of 6 seconds but then when you add something else in there that doesn't happen as an action (falling) suddenly doesn't "fit"? We have 4 characters acting, while on paper it might be simultaneous but we know that character 4's long spell is going to take effect after all the other actions, it's effect is going to be based on what's happened before hand in the round. Yet you plainly accept that it's a total time of 6 seconds and not 24? Why can't you then accept that you can "squeeze" in a few other things in there. Especially because that sequential problem becomes worse as the number of creatures involved in the combat increases (or you have to accept that each person's action is only a fraction of the round and accept that somehow people speed up when there's more people in a combat).
The White Sorcerer 03-14-07, 08:44 AM	Does that help explain how it works? No. Not at all. My example had nothing to do with bull rush.
starfire311 03-14-07, 08:54 AM	Why is it that you're perfectly willing to accept that 4 sequential 6 second actions (sequential in that it's turn-based and later actions clearly take place after earlier ones even though it's supposedly simultaneous) takes a total of 6 seconds but then when you add something else in there that doesn't happen as an action (falling) suddenly doesn't "fit"? Becaus, if a character had time to make a full round action then after making the full round action he has time to fall for a full round, all in the time of one round, then why can't he do something while he is falling, such as pull out a potion or cast a fly spell, heck he just fell for 6 seconds, and you can do things while falling. Imagine a combat, you just made a full round action, then you take a 5ft step and fall in a pit trap that is 150ft deep, you should have time to do something while you are falling the 150ft, but since you already took your action this round, you just have to wait 6 seconds for you to get to the bottom.
Frugal 03-14-07, 09:08 AM	Becaus, if a character had time to make a full round action then after making the full round action he has time to fall for a full round, all in the time of one round, then why can't he do something while he is falling, such as pull out a potion or cast a fly spell, heck he just fell for 6 seconds, and you can do things while falling. Imagine a combat, you just made a full round action, then you take a 5ft step and fall in a pit trap that is 150ft deep, you should have time to do something while you are falling the 150ft, but since you already took your action this round, you just have to wait 6 seconds for you to get to the bottom. By that argument, if someone takes 6 seconds charging at me then I should have time to make an action (like move and interrupt their charge) before they reach me, but the rules say I can't take any action.
Merestil Haye 03-14-07, 09:47 AM	No. Not at all. My example had nothing to do with bull rush.And you are incapable of applying the general procedure to your situation? Very well.Round Character 1: Full attack, 6 seconds Character 2: Runs over the edge of a cliff, 6 seconds Character 3: Move and attack, 6 seconds Character 4: Casts a long spell, 6 secondsA round is six seconds. There are four combatants (you didn't mention any enemies) so each time a combatant completes his actions, treat it as if 1½ seconds had passed. C2 completes his action as he steps off the cliff - he's incapable of moving an further under his own volition. C3 acts. By the time he finishes, C2 has been falling for 1½ seconds. C4 acts. By the time he finishes C2 has been falling for 3 seconds. C1 acts. By the time he finishes C2 has been falling for 4½ seconds. C2 acts. by the time he finishes he's been falling 6 seconds. Yes this is somewhat arbitrary, and I'd hate to do this with (say) 23 combatants, but it is simple in concept and it gives a method of approximating how far C2 fell by the time another character could attempt to save him. Of course "how far he fell" is limited by the height of the cliff, and he might well hit before he gets to act. That's the whole point of Featherfall being an immediate action to cast.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 02:21 PM	Wow. I can not believe that falling is actually being debated like this. Look, you have a six second round for all participants (npcs and pcs) to do whatever actions they are going to do. Falling is not an action at all. It is an effect of another action (either yours or someone else's). This happens all the time in D&D. Tripping and falling are the two most common. Unless being cast by a spell or some other effect, suspended animation doesn't occur in combat. You don't just stand there when you are not rolling the dice. You don't magically float when you are tripped or you fall. Your character is still in the thick of the fight and is moving, dodging, weaving, yelling, sweating and striving to come out of the encounter in one piece. The problem here is that people are taking NWN and other popular PC games to heart and are imagining their combats in the exact RTS that they play in those games. Trust me, I love those games but even as a DM and a player they don't get it quite right as far as the table top game is concerned. Instead of getting a pause button to set up your strategy, you have to think quickly about what you want to do and how you want to do it. I just think the technicality of the rules needs to be tossed out of the window whenever common sense is in order. You can not and will not step off of a cliff and float there of your own free will unless you have magic or some other form of aid to prevent you from doing otherwise. To the OP, the strategy used by your DM was legit seeing as how the dragon has a listed swim and fly speed. Now I will say that depending on you and your party's set up that you may have been privy to some AoOs, but nevertheless I feel that you guys played the game and learned a great lesson: monsters can be smart but it's up to you guys to outsmart them. So he whipped up on you once. Apparently it hasn't discouraged you too much because you said you are going back in to kill him off. Good luck and great hunting!
The White Sorcerer 03-14-07, 05:24 PM	C3 acts. By the time he finishes, C2 has been falling for 1½ seconds. C4 acts. By the time he finishes C2 has been falling for 3 seconds. C1 acts. By the time he finishes C2 has been falling for 4½ seconds. C2 acts. by the time he finishes he's been falling 6 seconds. Using that system, C1 and C2 finished all of their actions before C3 acted, and their actions aren't simultaneous at all.
Kursk 03-14-07, 05:44 PM	Using that system, C1 and C2 finished all of their actions before C3 acted, and their actions aren't simultaneous at all. That's how the game is designed (misdesigned?) Party A charges 60' towards Party B (4 seconds?) Party B doesn't act until he is attacked and then gets his 6 seconds which runs 4 seconds into the next round. That's why things get screwed up. Someone asked me if I let a party flee if they see s/o charging them. Of course, I answered "yes" as you don't have to stand frozen as the guy with the lance bears down on you.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 05:52 PM	That's how the game is designed (misdesigned?) Party A charges 60' towards Party B (4 seconds?) Party B doesn't act until he is attacked and then gets his 6 seconds which runs 4 seconds into the next round. That's why things get screwed up. Someone asked me if I let a party flee if they see s/o charging them. Of course, I answered "yes" as you don't have to stand frozen as the guy with the lance bears down on you. Of course you can flee if someone charges you. It's called taking a readied action to flee if you are charged by the enemy. I do understand what you are saying but you've got to have some cut off point from reality and the game as to what should apply rules wise. The difficult part is where does that cut off lie? Some folks are purely by the book with no thought for flexibility whatsoever. Others modify rules all the time to fit their game. There is nothing wrong with doing either one of these.
Kursk 03-14-07, 05:58 PM	Of course you can flee if someone charges you. It's called taking a readied action to flee if you are charged by the enemy. I do understand what you are saying but you've got to have some cut off point from reality and the game as to what should apply rules wise. The difficult part is where does that cut off lie? Some folks are purely by the book with no thought for flexibility whatsoever. Others modify rules all the time to fit their game. There is nothing wrong with doing either one of these. Readied doesn't factor in. That's s/g you have to decide before. Without deciding beforehand you are frozen and my other example of where 6 sec rounds don't exist shows major lack of thouht when designing the combat rules.
Frugal 03-14-07, 06:12 PM	Using that system, C1 and C2 finished all of their actions before C3 acted, and their actions aren't simultaneous at all. That's what I (and a few other people) have been saying, officially everything is simultaneous but since it's mapped onto a turn-based system it becomes sequential. Player A wins initiative against monster B, player A moves in and attacks the monster killing it. If the action is simultaneous then why didn't monster B get to act? Player A charges 60' at monster B and hits with 1 swing, monster B full attacks back. If it's simultaneous then why was monster B able to full attack if for most of the round player A wasn't within reach? You can argue that everyone's actions take 6 seconds in which case claiming a round is 6 seconds long makes no sense. Or, you can claim that each person's actions take up a fraction of the 6 seconds but then you run into problems with reality (crossing 60' in 6 seconds in odd enough, but in 1s or less if there's a lot of combatants?) and the question of if the player can move that fast why can't he take other actions during those 6 seconds? The answer is that it's an abstraction, it says it's simultaneous but mechanically it clearly isn't, it says the rounds are 6 seconds long but obviously this has issues. You resolve everyone's actions and then assume that it all happened in 6s and just accept it.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 06:15 PM	Readied doesn't factor in. That's s/g you have to decide before. Without deciding beforehand you are frozen and my other example of where 6 sec rounds don't exist shows major lack of thouht when designing the combat rules. Then decide beforehand. Be smarter than the enemy =D. Or better yet, just go full defensive in the surprise round (provided you are aware of your enemy) and take the hit. A fighter with a tower shield on full defensive is a ***** to hit no matter what is charging them. The fuss about the combat round and six seconds is being made more complex than it is. The extremes of combat reality should be kept out of combat in D&D because it doesn't belong there. This is a game. If I wanted reality I'd become a marine corps sniper and just shoot my enemies from a far distance, charges and lances be damned.
Kursk 03-14-07, 06:39 PM	Then decide beforehand. Be smarter than the enemy =D. Or better yet, just go full defensive in the surprise round (provided you are aware of your enemy) and take the hit. A fighter with a tower shield on full defensive is a ***** to hit no matter what is charging them. Naw, I just let s/o run if they want. Simpler.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 07:05 PM	Naw, I just let s/o run if they want. Simpler. Then nobody would ever get charged. By this reasoning, all you have to do is allow a player the option to get out of the way when an npc declares a charge and a charge now becomes useless and impossible to do. So lances and mounted charges should be non-existent? Not arguing with you, just trying to understand how making combat more real keeps the game on a level playing field with RAW. IMO, you've got to give at some point. The way I see it, your initiative is your responsiveness to combat. The lower you roll, the slower you are to react even though you are in combat. That makes sense to me. Otherwise, in a game that already has actions to counter other actions and what not, you will wind up having one big simultaneous melee and the death toll of PCs and NPCs alike will skyrocket to frustrating proportions because nobody will get to act before anyone. It will all be done at the same time. I like to keep things as easy as possible for all at the table. When you got to break out an abacus and a slide rule for D&D, you need to lay off the game for a bit.
Ace_of_time 03-14-07, 09:08 PM	Look you are still making more to this than needs to be. the round it self is 6s long and each player action for that helps them get to the end of the 6s. If the monster act first tha he gets to the end of the 6s and then the next person goes to get his player to the end of the 6s and so on. the fall is not a person or thing it is a effact and just happens it would not any amount of time in game for him to fall. After that the next round starts and everyone get to try to get his PC or monster to the end of the 6s. that is it. It really is that simple people. Beside it is the 5' step we are here to discuss. and the only way for him not to get it is if he is on if the spot he is on or is trying to move count as 10' to move to. It does not have to step on to something to take a 5' step. He can just take it and choose to fall into the water insted of roll reflex to grab the cliff.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-14-07, 11:32 PM	Look you are still making more to this than needs to be. the round it self is 6s long and each player action for that helps them get to the end of the 6s. If the monster act first tha he gets to the end of the 6s and then the next person goes to get his player to the end of the 6s and so on. the fall is not a person or thing it is a effact and just happens it would not any amount of time in game for him to fall. After that the next round starts and everyone get to try to get his PC or monster to the end of the 6s. that is it. It really is that simple people. Beside it is the 5' step we are here to discuss. and the only way for him not to get it is if he is on if the spot he is on or is trying to move count as 10' to move to. It does not have to step on to something to take a 5' step. He can just take it and choose to fall into the water insted of roll reflex to grab the cliff. I have to agree with you completely. We are getting off topic by discussing this whole six seconds nonsense. The combat round has enough going on in it already to start making it this complex by adding suspended animation and illegal counteractions. The five foot step the dragon took is completely legal and is a good tactic. Like I said earlier, the players just need to adapt to the strategy and come up with some way to beat it.
Tarquis 03-15-07, 03:11 AM	Perhaps all this talk is an indication that the rules have gone too far and we need to simplify things again. Removing AoA except for obvious things like shooting bows in melee, drinking potions and spellcasting would help the game flow without bogging down in the minutae. Another side effect would be to lessen the appeal of the spiked chain. 'Nuff said about that subject. Simplicity and DM interpretation over mind numbing rules for every single combination of movement/action/effect. It's one of the reasons why we have a DM rather than a computer, isn't it?
Kursk 03-15-07, 01:03 PM	Then nobody would ever get charged. By this reasoning, all you have to do is allow a player the option to get out of the way when an npc declares a charge and a charge now becomes useless and impossible to do. So lances and mounted charges should be non-existent? Mounted charges with a lance weren't done against individuals unless it was an opposing knight. Otherwise, it was against a line of foot troops who countered with pole arms. So, not useless, just useful the way it always was.
Frugal 03-15-07, 01:12 PM	Mounted charges with a lance weren't done against individuals unless it was an opposing knight. Otherwise, it was against a line of foot troops who countered with pole arms. So, not useless, just useful the way it always was. We're not just talking about mounted charges. Allowing defenders the option to move out of the way of an oncoming charge (with no readied action) makes charging almost completely useless. The only situations I can see it still working would be when you're in tight quarters and can't move out of the way.
Kursk 03-15-07, 01:23 PM	We're not just talking about mounted charges. Allowing defenders the option to move out of the way of an oncoming charge (with no readied action) makes charging almost completely useless. The only situations I can see it still working would be when you're in tight quarters and can't move out of the way. Bingo. Just like real life. But if you want to break up an organized fight this is how to do it. Either they break or stand. Hmm, sounds like how it would really work. But, this is how I've run games for 25+ years so I don't have a problem running this kind of combat... Taking a step to the side wouldn't really work though. You'd have to really flee not just a 5' step...
PhaedrusXY 03-15-07, 01:44 PM	Bingo. Just like real life. How is this "Just like real life?" If I'm running up to some guy, getting ready to lop his head off with my claymore, and he tries to run away... I just follow him and lop his head off anyway. Unless he full out sprints, and is faster than me, I can just adjust my course to still get to him. If he does full out run, then he better start running before I do, otherwise I'll catch him as he tries to start running. You can't charge that far. Only 60 feet for a normal person. That's 20 yards, if you're used to watching football games. Or 15 yards for a guy in heavy armor. And you haven't been running your 3.5 games like that for 25 years, because the system hasn't existed for that long. I assume everyone here is talking about 3.5 rules, otherwise they should be on the board for older editions.
Kursk 03-15-07, 01:50 PM	How is this "Just like real life?" If I'm running up to some guy, getting ready to lop his head off with my claymore, and he tries to run away... I just follow him and lop his head off anyway. Unless he full out sprints, and is faster than me, I can just adjust my course to still get to him. You're right. Nothing I've posted contradicts what you say. If the other guy is faster (you in heavy armor, he unarmored) he can flee. If not, SOL. I haven't been running 3.5 for 25 years? Really? How insightful of you!
Frugal 03-15-07, 03:03 PM	Bingo. Just like real life. But if you want to break up an organized fight this is how to do it. Either they break or stand. Hmm, sounds like how it would really work. But, this is how I've run games for 25+ years so I don't have a problem running this kind of combat... Taking a step to the side wouldn't really work though. You'd have to really flee not just a 5' step... Why not just house rule that you can't charge? That's basically what you've done. For that matter, why don't I get to full attack you before you swing at me? Oh right, because there's this thing called initiative order. Essentially you're doing the same thing, allowing people to ignore initiative order and act out of turn without a readied or delayed action. While we're at it, this is only advantageous to those who haven't acted yet in the round. If I act first in the round I can't charge anyone (they'll just move) but then I've used up my movement and am completely vulnerable to being charged. If you're adopting this rule to be more "realistic" and to represent that things are simultaneous then why do those with higher initiative end up getting shafted while those with lower initiative gain an advantage?
aceland 03-15-07, 03:15 PM	The monster in question is a black dragon and the strat the dragon is using is the one the moduel sugests. If you clump up he then just hits you with his acid and stays in the water.
Magnus_the_Mad 03-15-07, 08:40 PM	Taking a step to the side wouldn't really work though. You'd have to really flee not just a 5' step... I call bullcrap. When you charge it is an all out, full speed run at your enemy with little control over directional movement which is why the rules say that charges must be in a straight line with no obstacles, not even friendly ones. A five foot step can take you out of the charge attack depending on the angle you are coming from. Trust me. Not only that, I'll take my readied action to step aside and hit your mount with my polearm, giving me a chance to take you out of your saddle at the same time. You want realistic, there you go. I think your combat system is a little too free flowing and not so realistic for the current rules edition. But like you said in your previous posts, in your opinion the current system is apparently flawed. Eh, I think it's the best combat system made to date because it covers more combat situations that always seemed to arise in previous editions in which there were either no rules written or, if they were written, they were vague and complex.
leroy_brown 04-10-07, 08:10 AM	We finally got back together and finished the bugger off, so we can end this thread now. We learnt as many summon monsters as we could and hit it with loads of porpoises until it decided to run away - girly wuss. Of course, now we have a young Black Dragon that doesn't like us - let's hope he hasn't got any older mates...
Jordat 04-12-07, 10:35 AM	Hehehe, look at all the trouble you've caused ;) My eyes are bleeding after reading those last 6 pages of text...