Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragoloth 01-09-08, 02:34 PM	My character and one other died in last weeks game (this was a CR 15 - 16 battle). The party was 9th but they leveled to 10th because of the battle, they fled after our deaths. The DM has just announced that the two of us that died are only allowed 7,000 gp to buy gear. Starting wealth for a 9th level character is 36,000 gp and the average party wealth is around 46,000 - 50,000 gp and they already posses some +4 weapons from loot.. My new character is a Vassel of Bahamut and he also stated that I don't have my armor(at 1st level the Vassel makes his own signature armor). This is the first time my character has died, during other characters deaths there were no such rules. Am I wrong that this will severly gimp our characters? Am I wrong to feel like he is doing this to punish me because the other player is on his 4th character and has always had proper starting gold? And would I be justified to walk on this campaign if he will not allow at least a reasonable amount of starting gold? The only reason I'm rolling up a new character instead of getting ressurected is because the DM said my last character was to powerful(human warblade). My new character is significantly less powerful being a paladin 7/Vassel of Bahamut 2.
UAMDB 01-09-08, 02:56 PM	Short answer... Yes you are getting hosed. You are always justifed in walking from a game. You would be walking from a game because you are not happy. I have never seen someone walk from a game they enjoyed playing in unless time was the issue. The DM is giving you 1/5th the starting gold of a regular PC. Now maybe the DM is expecting a little metagaming and have them share some of that loot with you as a way of equalizing the wealth of all characters. The best thing to do is simply talk to your DM and find out whats up.
Romtos 01-09-08, 03:15 PM	Talk to him and explain that he'll have to have some good arguments for this absurdity or else you'll leave his game. I wonder though, why didn't you respond the moment he announced this? Obviously, this is unfair.
Cromag 01-09-08, 03:41 PM	-He could be expecting the arty to share loot -he could be expecting the group to eventual recover you previous characters body/loot -He may have some specific loot in mind to provide to your character by an as yet unnamed backer "Don't forget your Armor of invulnerability and Holy longsword on the way out!" -Or he could just be vindictive and want you to be weaker to start out. If it's one of the first three options it shouldn't be a big deal, if it's the last option then play a character that doesn't need a lot of cash. I wouldn't immediately say "drop the campaign" if for no other reason than cash will eventually even out since he seems to give a pretty decent amount.
Dragoloth 01-09-08, 03:55 PM	Our DM posted his decision about starting wealth lastnight on our groups message board, I have been unable to reach him as of yet. Another player posted on the problem of such low starting wealth and his reply was it's "DM magic". We are playing a neutral party in RHoD, but my idea of a paladin was greeted well by all of the player and DM alike. Even though the players are nice enough, in character there is no way any of them will part with any money without something in return. The party's Cleric/rogue posted and stated that because of the last haul of loot the per character wealth has just increased by 30,000 gp. Hee also stated this will not be shared with the two new characters. Even at normal starting wealth I will be below average wealth for this party, I have no problem with this. Just 7,000 gp at 9th level is just to big of a gimp.
Fenrir_Greyback 01-09-08, 04:08 PM	One word..." PREPOSTEROUS!"
Romtos 01-09-08, 04:10 PM	One word..." PREPOSTEROUS!" Well said, my furry friend.
CCS 01-09-08, 04:11 PM	Am I wrong that this will severly gimp our characters? Am I wrong to feel like he is doing this to punish me because the other player is on his 4th character and has always had proper starting gold? And would I be justified to walk on this campaign if he will not allow at least a reasonable amount of starting gold? Answers to your questions; No, No, & No. Have you stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, your DM has something in mind? Maybe something along the lines of bleeding off some of the others excess wealth through some plausable in-game reason (gotta help equip the new guys...)? Why would you think the DM would punish you because player B goes through characters & has always begun anew with "proper" gold? That just sounds like really stupid reasoning to me.... Are you generally having fun playing D&D? If so, why would you walk away from (I presume, forgive me) your friends over imaginary $.
Romtos 01-09-08, 04:18 PM	Answers to your questions; No, No, & No. Have you stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, your DM has something in mind? Maybe something along the lines of bleeding off some of the others excess wealth through some plausable in-game reason (gotta help equip the new guys...)? The DM could just say so and realise this is something which could be misunderstood if unexplained. Something along the lines, 'don't worry, that'll be fixed in the future' would suffice. Why would you think the DM would punish you because player B goes through characters & has always begun anew with "proper" gold? That just sounds like really stupid reasoning to me.... Your trust in the general intelligence of DMs seems naïevely overrated. Are you generally having fun playing D&D? If so, why would you walk away from (I presume, forgive me) your friends over imaginary $. You're unnecessarely mocking him. Denying someone imaginary money in an environment they're really playing him is denying him a fair treatment in the real world. It's completely irrelevant whether the money is real or not.
Turin 01-09-08, 04:32 PM	It's interesting that the exact opposite is going on in another thread in What's a DM to Do. Characters died, and new PCs came with their normal wealth-by-level. But the other PCs looted the bodies of the old PCs, and now the group is "too rich" as a whole. You DM could very easily be compensating for this. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and suck it up. Maybe talk to your fellow party members OOC and try to rationalize a way that they'd share some of the recent loot with your PC.
Totentanz 01-09-08, 04:39 PM	Is it unreasonable? Yes. Should you walk? Do you want to? That is the real question. I'd talk to the DM in question and ask, politely, why exactly he thinks its fair/reasonable for you to start with less gold and not have the armor you get as a class feature. Ask him if his to be rectified in the future. If his answers still aren't satisfying you, tell him that you really don't appreciate this, especially without an explanation. Play for ONE session. If you don't see some way on the horizon to correct the imbalance, politely tell him at the end of the session that you won't be playing anymore. "DM Magic" sounds to me like a DM on a power trip. It occasionally happens. Sometimes when players start walking they clean up. Sometimes they don't. No DnD > Bad DnD.
Dog_O_War 01-09-08, 04:50 PM	Magical gear does not equal effectiveness. You are getting severely jacked here, of this I have no doubt. So buck-up, get some grit and choose wisely. The other players will pony over some loot given that they are 10-14,000gp over the max themselves. Take a +1 adamantine weapon, a +1 something else as back-up, and potion the rest. Basically 'fake-it' with consumables until the game levels itself off.
VulcanStormwrath 01-09-08, 05:56 PM	Have the Char Op boards vets design your character. That'll teach the bastard.
StevenO 01-09-08, 05:58 PM	Unless the DM has something planned to immediately bring up you net worth you are getting hosed. I'd almost say you'd be fine IF you could assume that the remaining PCs will distribute there "excess" wealth the bring the newcomes up to speed but this doesn't appear to be true. I wonder is that 46k-50k average party wealth include the broke newcomers because if it doesn't that is what the newly 10th level character should average. It doesn't even sound like looting the old PCs is a problem as they were left in the field. If the DM expects you to bring in new 9th level characters to go with the remaining 10th level party he should allow you appropriate treasure; if he plans to "make up" the difference he should tell you now otherwise I say just take the walk.
TheEndIsNear 01-09-08, 06:05 PM	Dude with out DM I've never had as much money in this campaign, regardless of level. We are level 4, and we each ahve around 590GP, when I told the DM and the CO DM (they both got PCs) I got called an idiot... But then again I did too when i told him 2 handed weapons get 1.5X the STR bonus to DMG not to Attack bonus. And when I told them you add the Hit dice to the LA of a creature PC. Or when I did a Psion that dealt more damage that the anti-optimized(not un-optimized, he was made to SUCK) to more people even if i was about 8 levels higher (stupid dude took a Ogre mage fighter and was b*tching at me for being more dangerous) Etc... But I think it is unfair u get like a 5th of their wealth.. D-End
FarSouth 01-09-08, 07:10 PM	It sounds bad, on the face of it. I think you should seek immediate clarification from the DM of his reasoning for doing this, and an assurance that he has something planned to ensure that this imbalance is going to be rectified in game. If he feels the party as a whole is too rich, it may be he has something in mind to redistribute the wealth to bring you and the other new character to the same level as the others (and bringing them down to you - a meeting somewhere in the middle)....though it had better not be dependent on character co-operation, given what you've said so far. If he doesn't have any such plan, ask him why your character is being singled out to be poverty stricken, note that it is likely to lead to considerable player/character conflict, and point him to the parts of the DMG that spell out why characters need to have their wealth keep pace with their level to ensure that they are able to deal with challenges. Don't be satisfied with "DM magic" as an answer. If he has a plan to fix this but doesn't want to explain for fear of ruining part of the plot, that's fair enough - but he should at least be able to tell you out-of-game that he recognises your concerns and will address them.
HARLEYDUDE 01-09-08, 07:35 PM	I would take all that was posted above to heart, talk to the group an d DM then shrug and present your vow of poverty monk! money doesn't matter he he HD p.s. probably not the best advice but thats what came to mind. Good luck
VulcanStormwrath 01-09-08, 08:59 PM	I would take all that was posted above to heart, talk to the group an d DM then shrug and present your vow of poverty monk! money doesn't matter he he HD p.s. probably not the best advice but thats what came to mind. Good luck But it'll make the DM cry.:devil:
Cartigan 01-09-08, 09:08 PM	One word..." PREPOSTEROUS!" http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1761/nonsenseum2.jpg
Fatalis_902 01-09-08, 09:18 PM	I would take all that was posted above to heart, talk to the group an d DM then shrug and present your vow of poverty monk! money doesn't matter he he HD p.s. probably not the best advice but thats what came to mind. Good luck The hell with a VoP Monk. VoP Druid is the way to go! Do you have access to any of the Ebberron books? There's a prestige class in one called the Planar Shepherd, add that on to your VoP Druid for the single most broken thing this side of Pun-Pun, no gold needed.
Kala2000 01-09-08, 10:00 PM	Roleplaying/D&D isnt about who has the most gold, highest level, best sword or anything like that. Ok so you gather gold and gain experience and better equipment while you go but thats not why most of us play. And the players who do play for reasons above are very often considered problematic players. So take your 7000gp, buy your equipment and go play. As long as someone doesn't try to hinder or prohibit (this doesn't) your playing or enjoying it I wouldn't really consider doing anything drastic like quitting because of it. It seems like there are a lot of people in the forums whose main purpose is trying to get maximum amount of, like someone else nicely put it earlier in this thread, imaginary things like gold or experience in a game. Yes you could say you got shamboozled in a way but you shouldn't take it too seriously, perhaps your DM just wants to encourage gaining equipment by adventuring instead of buying it from shops etc. Ok so you play d&d but it you play it because you want to add more numbers in certain boxes in your character sheet thats just stupid and a waste of time. Its like grinding in World of Warcraft, its time totally wasted unless you find some sort of enjoyment factor in it. (no WoW enigmas, there are a lot of parts of the game and similar games that are very enjoyable, but some stuff just isnt)
Cartigan 01-09-08, 10:31 PM	Roleplaying/D&D isnt about who has the most gold, highest level, best sword or anything like that. Yada yada. D&D is a game of mechanics and numbers. A wealth table is there for a reason, a monster's CR takes into account that you are equipped close to the wealth table. If everyone else in your party is equipped as a 9th level party and you are fighting 9th level party monsters while equipped like a 4th level character, you. are. boned. It seems like there are a lot of people in the forums whose main purpose is trying to get maximum amount of, like someone else nicely put it earlier in this thread, imaginary things like gold or experience in a game. No, in the real world, those are imaginary. In the game, they are tangible or relevant elements. What is imaginary is role-playing. It is not factored into mechanics, it is an invention of the players.
KyoMamoru 01-09-08, 11:10 PM	Best thing you can do is stick with it. Something like this is going to normalize quickly enough. Invest your money to get a decent enough AC, and potions. Survival until you gear up, more or less is your only option. Don't worry about the +1 weapon of pwning, but instead the +1 selfish armor of ass saving.
Dragoloth 01-09-08, 11:13 PM	If the DM persists I was thinking about a VoP cleric or druid and breaking the game. As of right now he says "we'll talk about it later" and from what the other dead player has said the DM had no idea there was even a character by wealth table. He also had no idea how much the party had accumulated per character. Kala2000, having a gimped character in my opinion is in no way fun to play. As in any game you play when you are at a significant disadvantage to the other players the game is no longer fun.
Dragoloth 01-09-08, 11:15 PM	Best thing you can do is stick with it. Something like this is going to normalize quickly enough. Invest your money to get a decent enough AC, and potions. Survival until you gear up, more or less is your only option. Don't worry about the +1 weapon of pwning, but instead the +1 selfish armor of ass saving. Another sore spot. The DM has stripped my Vassel of Bahumet of his armor, which is a class feature.
KyoMamoru 01-09-08, 11:30 PM	Maybe that has something to do with your character not having slain a red dragon as of yet? [Technically, you shouldn't even be able to become a Vassal due to this clause on a new character.]
SokenzanMarauder 01-09-08, 11:45 PM	Another sore spot. The DM has stripped my Vassel of Bahumet of his armor, which is a class feature.Previously I was of the mind of 'just tough it out.' But after this... I'm siding with the 'your DM is an ass' group. Have you done something to provoke his ire or is he always like this?
Dragoloth 01-09-08, 11:50 PM	Maybe that has something to do with your character not having slain a red dragon as of yet? [Technically, you shouldn't even be able to become a Vassal due to this clause on a new character.] When I asked permission to play this concept as my new character the DM said he would just assume I had already killed the dragon and entered the PrC. So that is definately not it. The DM is usually easy going and this is the first time this has happened. He didn't like my last character, he said it was to powerful, that is why I chose to roll up a new one instead of getting ressurected.
FarSouth 01-10-08, 12:10 AM	The DM is usually easy going and this is the first time this has happened. He didn't like my last character, he said it was to powerful, that is why I chose to roll up a new one instead of getting ressurected. Well, if he's normally easy-going then you're more likely to get want you want by being reasonable and negotiating. As of right now he says "we'll talk about it later" and from what the other dead player has said the DM had no idea there was even a character by wealth table. He also had no idea how much the party had accumulated per character. Sounds to me like he may well be feeling embarrassed about not being aware of this. So aim to be "helpful" rather than "demanding" - you might be able to assist him to find an equitable way to equip your character and reign in the excessive wealth of the others.
Jutter 01-10-08, 07:39 AM	I side with both groups. - Yes, the amount of equipment you get shouldn't bother your game. - Yes, having less than the standard amount of equipment makes your character 'to weak' for it's level. I take into consideration that the other party members DO have standard wealth, and that standard wealth is expected in a WotC published adventure. - Yes, getting less than average starting gold is tough in the real world. It's like you're playing monopoly with your friends and everybody gets an additional $50.000 except for you, for reasons they won't explain. - No, a DM can't just strip a class feature off a PC and expect the player to accept it without a fight. But since you're playing the Red Hand of Doom module, around levels 9-10, you might want to see what happens next. I'm running that very part of the module for my group this weekend, and chances are your DM has something good up his sleeve.
Cartigan 01-10-08, 08:57 AM	If the DM persists I was thinking about a VoP cleric or druid and breaking the game. As of right now he says "we'll talk about it later" and from what the other dead player has said the DM had no idea there was even a character by wealth table. He also had no idea how much the party had accumulated per character. Our DM is like that. He gives out treasure that has no business belonging to our group and he knows of the character wealth by level table, but he pretty much just glosses it over, which is ******* me off. We are 4-6th level and two people have +4 weapons (from quest rewards, apparently d20 doesn't translate well to straight D&D) and I can't buy a bloody +1 Swordbow because of his dumb character wealth rules.
Dog_O_War 01-10-08, 11:44 AM	You guys are missing the biggest point here as to "jack him" of his starting wealth. The groups' average is about 50,000gp over what it should be. With him coming in at 7000gp instead of 36,000gp, the natural balance will be slowly righted. While it might not be right to deny him what the book says, it serves to re-balance the game which is more important in the end here.
Cartigan 01-10-08, 01:53 PM	You guys are missing the biggest point here as to "jack him" of his starting wealth. The groups' average is about 50,000gp over what it should be. With him coming in at 7000gp instead of 36,000gp, the natural balance will be slowly righted. While it might not be right to deny him what the book says, it serves to re-balance the game which is more important in the end here. Sure, that works in some sort of wonky number fashion, but it doesn't work in theory. It's going to result in the other people being well armed and him and the other guy getting killed alot more and never being able to catch up with the rest. Starting them at a realistic level, ie near the right character wealth, will help balance the game without gimping him and the other guy.
Kala2000 01-10-08, 02:08 PM	No, in the real world, those are imaginary. In the game, they are tangible or relevant elements. What is imaginary is role-playing. It is not factored into mechanics, it is an invention of the players. So basically you have never actually really played a role playing game, which D&D can count as? No matter how focused it is in numbers and rolling dice. Oh and. THE GAME IS IMAGINARY, IT ISNT REALLY HAPPENING. ALL THE STUFF YOU DO IN THE GAME DOESNT REALLY HAPPEN, YOU ARE JUST PRETENDING LIKE IT DOES. YOU DONT REALLY GAIN EXPERIENCE YOU JUST WRITE DOWN NUMBERS ON A PIECE OF PAPER. jeez your whole post was so stupid I'd want to bash it for pages and make fun of it but I guess it would be a waste of bandwidth. edit: Just felt like I *had* to include this as well. The roleplaying isnt there to backup the game mechanics etc. The game mechanics, rules, all that stuff. b*That* is there so support the roleplaying. Otherwise a roleplaying game would be no different from a tabletop battle game. But it is different, so much different. Its so much deeper, more versatile, more intriguin, allows so much more to happen. I don't know where to start and where to end and if someone doesn't understand this difference between playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle or D&D miniatures and actually playing a session of a real roleplaying game it probably just cant be helped.
Cartigan 01-10-08, 02:49 PM	THE GAME IS IMAGINARY, IT ISNT REALLY HAPPENING. ALL THE STUFF YOU DO IN THE GAME DOESNT REALLY HAPPEN, YOU ARE JUST PRETENDING LIKE IT DOES. YOU DONT REALLY GAIN EXPERIENCE YOU JUST WRITE DOWN NUMBERS ON A PIECE OF PAPER. jeez your whole post was so stupid I'd want to bash it for pages and make fun of it but I guess it would be a waste of bandwidth. You know what my biggest pet peeve is? Fanatical, elitist role players. Good day to you sir.
Kala2000 01-10-08, 03:33 PM	You know what my biggest pet peeve is? Fanatical, elitist role players. Good day to you sir. I was gonna write a serious reply but decided not to. I guess mine are people who think they are roleplaying when they're actually just browsing rulebooks, throwing dice and competing who has the biggest imaginary <I'm sure you meant 'cars', Brak> in their game. <snip>
Magrus 01-10-08, 04:18 PM	Ask your DM if he plans on giving you gear that he picked out especially for you within the first session with your new player to put you on par with the rest of the group. If he says no, let him know you shall not be continuing playing in his game if that is the case due to the fact that player equipment plays such a large part in the power level of the game system he is running his games in. See what he says. If he doesn't come up with a different answer, find another game.
Dragoloth 01-10-08, 06:31 PM	To most of you thanks for the replies. The other player who has to make a new character talked to the DM today and he has agreed to give us wealth appropriate for our level. He also has stated I will be allowed to start with my vassel armor and shared trove, both class features. I don't know why he changed his mind yet, either he read the DMG or the thought of a VoP druid bothered him. Fatalis the planar shepard is awesome, nice pick. Kala why do you find it necessary to insult those who disagree with you? Are you young and nieve and just don't know better or are you an old fart who has no friends? Either way I would appreciate if you would not waste peoples time with your derogatory posts. You sir are truly ignorant of the game if you really believe character wealth has no impact on a character.
Brand_X 01-10-08, 06:49 PM	With that type of start my answer to the DM is this. (Insert Race here) Vow of Poverty Monk.
FarSouth 01-10-08, 07:12 PM	I don't know why he changed his mind yet, either he read the DMG or the thought of a VoP druid bothered him. Probably the former, since he seemed unaware of the level/wealth guidelines until they were pointed out to him. Anyway, doesn't matter now. Glad to hear that it's been resolved without trouble. Enjoy your new character!
Cold Napalm 01-10-08, 08:00 PM	Bah, you gave him warning...I'd just smile, nod, point to the rules and give him 5 mins to change his mind before rolling up a VoP druid and making him cry.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 01-10-08, 09:55 PM	Kala why do you find it necessary to insult those who disagree with you? Are you young and nieve and just don't know better or are you an old fart who has no friends? Either way I would appreciate if you would not waste peoples time with your derogatory posts. You sir are truly ignorant of the game if you really believe character wealth has no impact on a character. For the record it was cartigan who called kala an elitiest for positing that this game may be something more then the numbers on your character sheet. Bah, you gave him warning...I'd just smile, nod, point to the rules and give him 5 mins to change his mind before rolling up a VoP druid and making him cry. So what happens when the DM disallows VOP?
Cold Napalm 01-10-08, 10:23 PM	So what happens when the DM disallows VOP? Then I just use the plain old core druid...usually to the same effect...although with spell compendium it gets more of a fetal position then crying...and the SC is much easier to get snuck in hehe. Yes I am a spiteful spiteful man. I'm okay with it though...and so are my friends.
Cartigan 01-10-08, 10:31 PM	For the record it was cartigan who called kala an elitiest for positing that this game may be something more then the numbers on your character sheet. As clever as that summary is, it is patently wrong. Unless you can prove you have some sort of telepathy we don't know about. I called him an elitist for going off the hook over role-playing. Hence calling him fanatical and a role player. Might want to get your eyes checked.
metalmayhem80110 01-11-08, 01:30 AM	Hehe, if a DM wants to play like that, let him... You're losing a character you liked, and getting hosed... Time to have fun :D Run a Sainted VoP Pally/monk with Ascetic Knight... That will show your GM that money doesn't make broken characters, and you'll get to have some fun pummeling things :D
Etarnon 01-11-08, 03:11 AM	We are 4-6th level and two people have +4 weapons (from quest rewards, apparently d20 doesn't translate well to straight D&D) and I can't buy a bloody +1 Swordbow because of his dumb character wealth rules.] So you can't buy a +1, but they have +4's? Seems like he's singling you out for special treatment. Wealth doesn't affect the Roleplaying, in all cases. What if the whole party has a vow of poverty? The game itself says wealth by level as a recommended guideline. It's all guidelines, and none of it, is in fact real or tangible. I say this because 1,000,000 GP in my D&D game cannot be sold to another campaign. WoW or any other MMORPG items can, in fact, and have a real value, thus the shadow MMORPG economies that exist off of ebay.
Ayra 01-11-08, 09:02 AM	If you really like playing with the group, stick with it. See what effects it has on the campaign. As said before, it'll balance wealth in the party and I'm sure you'll get your fair share of gear from your fellow party members as well. If it turns out to be a bad idea, I'm sure your DM will notice (if he normally is as reasonable as you claim he is) and try to mend things. If it bothers you after having tried it out, bring it up to him and then you can eventually decide to leave the group if he won't fix it.
Cartigan 01-11-08, 10:17 AM	The DM already changed his mind. To most of you thanks for the replies. The other player who has to make a new character talked to the DM today and he has agreed to give us wealth appropriate for our level. He also has stated I will be allowed to start with my vassel armor and shared trove, both class features. I don't know why he changed his mind yet, either he read the DMG or the thought of a VoP druid bothered him. Fatalis the planar shepard is awesome, nice pick. :rolleyes:
Turin 01-11-08, 03:51 PM	If it turns out to be a bad idea, I'm sure your DM will notice (if he normally is as reasonable as you claim he is) and try to mend things. If it bothers you after having tried it out, bring it up to him and then you can eventually decide to leave the group if he won't fix it. Obviously problem solved. But just to add a note to Ayra's response, I found it more than a little disturbing that so many folks jumped in with responses that were essentially "get back at your DM and ruin everyone's fun." And one wonders why we see so many posts in WaPtD and WaDMtD about players or DMs acting like this!
Dog_O_War 01-12-08, 09:19 AM	Well you do admit to calling him an elitest, so we on't need to debate that. Which leads me to conclude that my orginal stament is accurate. Telepathy not required. And my eyes are fine. I can understand the need to defend others you percieve are being attacked, but not like this. This is a foolish tactic here as it only calls down the wrath of a Mod. Besides, give your head a shake; kala struck first, and it was cartigan who was put on the defensive by it. He may have responded to a post of her's with an unfeeling viewpoint, but she was the one to lay out name-calling first. Also what he posted is not wrong in the fact that D&D is an RPG. It is a game on top of everything, and in games the mechanics are what allows for a person to continue to advance. It has a complex relationship with a non-game concept, but in order to continue in a strategy game you have to be capable in all the elements. You don't have to "win" in order to have fun, but winning at the strategy aspect is an added bonus. Besides, when the mechanics threaten to end your RP experience due to a harsh and unwarranted penalty, wouldn't you cry 'foul!' too?
Cold Napalm 01-12-08, 12:45 PM	] I say this because 1,000,000 GP in my D&D game cannot be sold to another campaign. WoW or any other MMORPG items can, in fact, and have a real value, thus the shadow MMORPG economies that exist off of ebay. You know, with 4e going on the net, maybe we'll have the shadow economy in 4e too...won't that be wonderful.... Yeah yeah, I know, not likely, but you never know...and if not 4e, maybe 5e. There is even an MMORPG that is free to play but they make money by selling you e-stuff.
Cartigan 01-12-08, 01:15 PM	You know, with 4e going on the net, maybe we'll have the shadow economy in 4e too... Unless 4e is D&D Online 2.0 (aka an MMO), that's impossible. There is even an MMORPG that is free to play but they make money by selling you e-stuff. A number of them do that now.
Cold Napalm 01-12-08, 01:54 PM	Unless 4e is D&D Online 2.0 (aka an MMO), that's impossible. You never know. Maybe the living games will have online trading. And you can "buy" extra gold for your living character for a nominal fee. Maybe a stat here or there. Or a PrC not normally allowed. I find the idea rather horrible myself...but it is a proven method of making money...and you know companies, they love money(and really who doesn't).
Cartigan 01-12-08, 02:58 PM	You never know. Maybe the living games will have online trading. And you can "buy" extra gold for your living character for a nominal fee. Maybe a stat here or there. Or a PrC not normally allowed. I find the idea rather horrible myself...but it is a proven method of making money...and you know companies, they love money(and really who doesn't). Unless D&D becomes an MMO, or an otherwise persistent world between every individual game, you can't do that. Also, there would have to be a server and clients and even the DMs were still clients, that way they couldn't just make their own money or items to give to players, then at that point, you arn't playing D&D.
Cold Napalm 01-12-08, 06:55 PM	Unless D&D becomes an MMO, or an otherwise persistent world between every individual game, you can't do that. Also, there would have to be a server and clients and even the DMs were still clients, that way they couldn't just make their own money or items to give to players, then at that point, you arn't playing D&D. You do realize that living games don't let the DM create and give their player whatever they want right? The exact treasure given is already decided in the living game module. It's all very standardized. I'm talking about this happening in the RPGA games...not your at home games.
Kala2000 01-13-08, 07:53 AM	I'm not going to delve any further into the endless debate of "what is the correct way to play <insert game>". But I would still like to point out a few things. First of all, I didn't initiate the hostilities. As proven by this post: You know what my biggest pet peeve is? Fanatical, elitist role players. Good day to you sir. In the first and second paraphrase, the poster proceeds to hand out information on what sort of behaviour or thinking he dispises. That being "Fanatical, elitist role players". In the last one, he obviously accuses me of being a such person. Now adding exhibit A and B together we can decipher that a) he dislikes fanatical elitist role players and b) he thinks I'm an fanatical elitist role players which leads to a + b = c he dislikes me in person. Which qualifies as a personal attack against me. Its even so cleverly disguised that he managed to fool most of the people reading and posting in this thread to thinking I was the one making the first strike! And as for my reply, well it was pretty childist on purpose. Because the post (and probably person as well) I was replying to had already initiated such childisness by not being able to present any real arguments or facts to back up his side in the matter and just proceeded to attack his opponents personal qualities which he disliked. Which was probably quite hard to do because there aren't really that many holes in the claim that "The game of D&D is more than just rolling dice". And then there was this post: Also what he posted is not wrong in the fact that D&D is an RPG. It is a game on top of everything, and in games the mechanics are what allows for a person to continue to advance. It has a complex relationship with a non-game concept, but in order to continue in a strategy game you have to be capable in all the elements. You don't have to "win" in order to have fun, but winning at the strategy aspect is an added bonus. Now none of this is inherintly wrong other than the lack of mindsight to see the fact that the game of D&D is so much more than just the strategy ascept. Now you can of course play mainly for the strategic challenge it presents but I can guarantee that the "higher" level of gaming involves a lot more. BUT to prevent any misunderstandings playing for the sake of getting the most of everything-with-a-number-on-it be it exp or gold or equipment or whatnot has no inherit flaw in it and is of course perfectly accepted in all ways. But presenting this point of view of the game as a clear-cut solution in problems which involve so much more than just these aspects is not going to cut it because its way too simplified. The 3rd ed. ruleset is quite flexible and versatile and it actually does work well in an environment built for combat and warfare as long as the DM can present balanced challenges. But if you want to just wage war on a table and not even think about anything else there are so much better alternatives for you that you don't need to stick to playing just D&D. And calling D&D a "strategy game", now thats just heresy. Cliff notes: Combat rules arent there just to support role playing nor do the role playing elements exist just to make a good excuse for combat encounters, they both should support each other and exist in a balanced way to make the most of any D&D experience. And for the OP: Glad to hear you got what you wanted, especially if you really feel that the starting wealth-problem was something that could've been a big hindrance to you enjoying your gaming sessions.
Cartigan 01-13-08, 09:53 AM	You do realize that living games don't let the DM create and give their player whatever they want right? The exact treasure given is already decided in the living game module. It's all very standardized. I'm talking about this happening in the RPGA games...not your at home games. Ah. Though selling and buying items would be difficult, you have the DM watching you in every game. I assume they govern buying and selling things to some point: "Hey, where did you get that +4 axe at level 3 without getting in from loot or spending any gold or items?"
ORC_Nashira 01-13-08, 12:59 PM	For those of you who are posting on topic, please continue to do so, this is an interesting topic. For those of you who are not on topic, please get back on topic or stop posting to this thread. It's okay to address the issue, but harassing one another just doesnt get anyone anywhere.
High Octane 01-13-08, 01:36 PM	My character and one other died in last weeks game (this was a CR 15 - 16 battle). The party was 9th but they leveled to 10th because of the battle, they fled after our deaths. The DM has just announced that the two of us that died are only allowed 7,000 gp to buy gear. Starting wealth for a 9th level character is 36,000 gp and the average party wealth is around 46,000 - 50,000 gp and they already posses some +4 weapons from loot.. My new character is a Vassel of Bahamut and he also stated that I don't have my armor(at 1st level the Vassel makes his own signature armor). This is the first time my character has died, during other characters deaths there were no such rules. Am I wrong that this will severly gimp our characters? Am I wrong to feel like he is doing this to punish me because the other player is on his 4th character and has always had proper starting gold? And would I be justified to walk on this campaign if he will not allow at least a reasonable amount of starting gold? The only reason I'm rolling up a new character instead of getting ressurected is because the DM said my last character was to powerful(human warblade). My new character is significantly less powerful being a paladin 7/Vassel of Bahamut 2. What did you do to the DM? Run over his dog with your car? Repeatedly? Replacing the word dog with SON? *reads on* Good to know it worked out. My one cent (They raised the sales tax in my state so I can only afford the one for now) To those who are so mad about someone being upset about being denied wealth per level: Stop and realize that its not about just them. Having less equipment doesnt stop the game from being fun. Trust me on this, I am currently playing a module where everyone's items were all stripped from them. And we have fun. Why is that possible when this guy has some equipment instead of none? Simple. WE have fun because everyone is playing a character in the same boat. Everyone has nothing. Now if suddenly one character was given all his equipment and everyone else wasnt, we WOULD be upset. D&D is a team game above all, and thats why class and character balance is a big deal. Simply put, everyone should be able to shine, and that is hard when your character is definitely worse off than the rest of the group. If he was told he was to play a character 3 levels behind everyone, would you have the same reaction? Because essentially, thats what the lowered equipment does. Denied a good weapon means less chance to hit, less damage. Denied +2 str and con items means less hit points and less chance to hit and damage. Denied class ability? its like he didnt take that level. Denied cloak of protection? Lowered saves. Lower saves, hit points, chance to hit, and class abilities? Sounds like lost levels to me.
Cold Napalm 01-13-08, 01:42 PM	Ah. Though selling and buying items would be difficult, you have the DM watching you in every game. I assume they govern buying and selling things to some point: "Hey, where did you get that +4 axe at level 3 without getting in from loot or spending any gold or items?" Yeah they have slip markers for buying and selling of items in the living games. Like I said very standardized...which is why I can see living world going online and generating a shdaow market (will sell marker for axe +4 for 5 dollars) type deal.
Lincoln Hills 01-16-08, 03:47 PM	The question of equipping new, incoming characters is always a tricky one from a DM's-eye-view. Consider a case in which five Level 6 characters are on an adventure, and three die. Since PCs (unlike most of the people in the real world) have absolutely no sensitivity for the property rights of the dead or of their next-of-kin, the PCs promptly strip their dead friends and pitch their bodies in a bog before wandering back to town to recruit more allies. Suddenly those three 6th-level characters have double the "recommended wealth per level." Now, in theory, each new character's RWpL should not be affected by the fact that his new buddies are twice as rich. Harvesting dead comrades is one of the most profitable, and distasteful, glitches in the notion that "everybody of a particular level should be about as wealthy as each other". Yet if the DM were to attempt to apply RWpL on a party-wide basis, that would require the new characters to start without so much as a copper piece - hardly fair for the new folks, and not much fun for the old since they're expected to hand over some of their beloved swag out of the "goodness of their hearts" - a concept which will certainly not apply to all characters alike. The easiest way to prevent this kind of trouble actually doesn't involve the DM at all: it's a purely PC-to-PC solution. Have the characters make a pact among themselves that acknowledges the likelihood of a death or two at some point in their careers. "When I die, my possessions should be (buried with me / turned over to my illegitimate son, didn't I ever mention him before? / donated to my temple / shot out of a catapult into the sea)." Special bequests and all that should be agreed upon - obviously, if Barbarian Bob has a dragon-slaying sword, he's within his rights to say, "If I die before we manage to slay the dragon, I call on Hexblade Hattie to take up my sword and carry on with the fight!" A few minutes of in-game conversation can take most of the pressure off of the DM... and it's so much more aesthetic than the usual wealth inequities, or the crude means ("Oh no, it's the Hail of Rust-Monsters Trap!") to which DMs are sometimes forced to resort.